Hacker News Reader

Comment by medler | Hacker News Reader

I’m skeptical that this reorg will allow Ford to sell direct to consumers, and I haven’t seen any reporting saying that it will.

Notably, Ford has explicitly said they’re not doing that: “We’re not keeping dealers in the mix 'for the moment.' We are betting on dealers for the long term. I want to make that really clear. I’m not mincing words. We will have new standards and a new experience. But we learned a lot by watching Tesla."

Maybe going direct is the secret plan, but I don’t see how they get there.

View on HN

I think it's also worth noting that Ford has an obscene number of fleet sales compared to the brands most people here buy. Some dealers will stick around for the same reason Caterpillar dealers exist despite those products not being the kind of thing you "just go to a dealer and buy".

> Maybe going direct is the secret plan, but I don’t see how they get there.

Yeah, the dealership and the state level dealership associations aren't going to go out of business without some good fight. Even though I personally don't like the markup to be paid at the dealerships, but they exist for some good reasons: educate the consumers, financing, DMV paperwork and most importantly service your vehicles. EVs need much less service visits but when they do - it's likely harder for DIYers to tinkle with High Voltage battery systems and/or the infotainment firmware diagnostics and updates.

>> educate the consumers

Every dealership I've been to has been more interested in feeding me whatever line of crap they think will get me to buy a car, not actually educating me about the different products available.

>> financing, DMV paperwork

Tesla and Carvana have proven these can be taken care of without a third party dealership. In most cases, financing is provided by a bank or credit union, not the dealership itself

>> and most importantly service your vehicles

Unless the fix is covered by warranty, I'm not taking my car anywhere near a dealership. They charge considerably more money than my trusted mechanic. My Hyundai dealership wanted $125 just for an oil change on a 2013 Sonata.

In theory, a dealership could be good for all of these things. In practice though, they suck. There is a reason most people hate car dealerships.

I had a dealership quote me $2600 for a required service package. The price of the parts was $400. It’s a bit of work but the labor was effectively over $366 per hour. I could have had the job done by an independent shop for $1000. When I pushed back, the service manager said he could do it for $1500.

I have a recall repair on the car as well so I think my final move is to use that as leverage to push the price down further. Getting the repair done by the dealer gets you a warranty by the manufacturer, which is the only additional value that I see.

>I had a dealership quote me $2600 for a required service package.

I don't get it. "Required" by whom?

Just say no, negotiate a better price, or take the car elsewhere.

>Getting the repair done by the dealer gets you a warranty by the manufacturer, which is the only additional value that I see.

No, the warranty exists regardless of where the car is serviced.

> No, the warranty exists regardless of where the car is serviced.

I'm not sure if that's true for Ford, but this is in the owner's manual for the Nissan GT-R.

> OBTAINING WARRANTY SERVICE

> You must take the vehicle to an authorized Nissan GT-R Certified dealer in the United States or Canada during regular business hours at your expense in order to obtain warranty service.

> WHAT IS NOT COVERED

> Repairs performed by anyone other than a Nissan GT-R certified dealer.

See the section titled "OBTAINING WARRANTY SERVICE" on page 11 and "GENERAL EXCLUSIONS" on page 12. https://www.nissanusa.com/content/dam/Nissan/us/manuals-and-...

> WHAT IS NOT COVERED

> Repairs performed by anyone other than a Nissan GT-R certified dealer.

IANAL, but I don't think that clause is legal in the US. Any equipment originally covered by a warranty and still within the time/mileage limits of the warranty must still be covered unless Nissan can prove that the work done by an outside tech was the cause of failure.

They certainly try to enforce it via bureaucracy. My local Nissan dealer wouldn't even do an oil change on mine because they're not a GT-R certified dealer.

It's routine maintenance. My car is required to have its timing belt replaced by 100,000 miles. If the dealer does the work, the manufacturer provides a warranty on the parts. Since a broken belt could destroy the engine, this is a replacement that should be done and it's nice to have the warranty.

> There is a reason most people hate car dealerships.

I really, really don't understand why the model won't die. I'm guessing regulatory malfeasance.

You guessed correctly. Thanks to aggressive lobbying direct sales is illegal in most states.

Direct sales were forbidden as a consumer protection back when dealerships were disconnected franchises with no licensing or direct relationship with the car manufacturers. To eliminate unscrupulous dealerships but protect the ones that were doing useful services the regulations made a compromise that eliminated direct sales.

It may be aggressive lobbying that keeps this status quo long past the original intent, but the original compromise came from a good place (eliminating "lemon dealers" and "lemon manufacturers" that refused to provide service/support/recalls).

>Carvana have proven these can be taken care of without a third party dealership.

Ah yes, Carvana, the company who has had its dealer license revoked in multiple States for a variety of violations, whose stock is down 90% (while insiders cashed out) and laid off thousands of people. What have they "proven"?

Al these things are available at official manufacturer's shops in Europe, no need to go to private dealer. And for some of those you're likely to get better rates if you shop around (car service, financing)

Official manufacturer’s shops in Europe are dealerships or are affiliated to a dealership. That’s literally what a dealership is.

The difference is that the customer experience seems to be radically different in Europe. I have no bad things to say about the dealership I had to deal with. They mostly sell at MSRP. They will gladly order you a customised model from their online platform if you need something specific and don’t mind the delay. You will have to negotiate the price if you want them to take back your old car but that’s mostly done in a very professional manner. Even buying used is generally quite pleasant. You will not get swindled at an official dealership. Meanwhile the US seems extremely cutthroat.

>You will not get swindled at an official dealership. Meanwhile the US seems extremely cutthroat.

This seems completely contrary to my experience. How on earth do you get swindled? Know the price of the car you want, refuse to pay more; you are the customer, they need to make a sale. Dealerships are abundant in most cities and compete hard with each other. There are always deals to be had.

Why do so many people here find this difficult? Salesmen are usually dying to sell you a car, and never want to see you walk out.

>> EVs need much less service visits but when they do - it's likely harder for DIYers to tinkle with.

A car handle on a Tesla that needs replacing is $1,000.

That is just the price Tesla imposes on the costumer.

A decent right to repair would cover most of these kind of things

https://fighttorepair.org/

That's a luxury/high-tech car problem, not an EV problem. The problem is that currently, EVs only exist in that segment (excepting the Dacia spring, which is a basic car with a basic EV powertrain, but it's only available in certain markets)

Hey, look at that - actual climate-control knobs, and an ordinary dashboard! Thank you for pointing this vehicle out.

The old car saying was: if you buy from BMW you pay for BMW.

Tesla wants to be the new BMW and at least in US car sales today is the new BMW.

> educate the consumers, financing, DMV paperwork and most importantly service your vehicles.

I bought a new car direct and I was educated, my credit union was better than the manufacturer's financing offer, the manufacturer did DMV paperwork, and the manufacturer does service.

9 years ago.

What am I missing?

> What am I missing?

A useless middleman.

Memorial day Madness and wacky waving inflatable arm-flailing tube men?

Free hot dogs?

Hi I'm Al Harrington..

>my credit union was better than the manufacturer's financing offer

For long stretches of time most manufacturers were offering 0% financing. Tough to beat that.

Sure, the manufacturer was. This doesn't require a dealer.

> For long stretches of time most manufacturers were offering 0% financing.

On a higher price. If you took a discount that could not be combined with the 0 percent financing, and financed using traditional financing options, you ended up paying less money.

It's kind of fun (yet horrifying) to watch how well 0% financing works with consumers, even when it's clear that you'll get a lower price without it.

did you have an opportunity to drive the car before you bought it?

Yes.

- educate the consumer

The last two cars I bought the salesperson knew nothing about the cars. People can learn much more about cars by going to a web site than talking to a sales person.

- DMV Paperwork

Dealerships charge consumers for the privilege of submitting DMV paperwork. This could all be handled online. Don’t understand the benefit.

- service your vehicle

I go to independent mechanics. They service my vehicle just fine.

Dealerships have got to go. They’re a huge waste of time space and money. They reflect crony capitalism at its worst.

Dealerships have got to go. They’re a huge waste of time space and money

I see value in having a local showroom where prospective buyers can test-drive several models to evaluate their driving experience. I don't think I'd ever buy a car without being able to sit in it beforehand.

Dealerships are orthogonal to local showrooms.

Imagine manufacturers buying out the dealership lots, turning a good portion of the lot to a small track for testing the cars handling, maneuvering, and acceleration without going onto public roads. I'm assuming a closed course will be much better for their insurance than going onto public roads and much more fun for customers since they'll (presumably) have straightaways and corners. And the fact that they could just keep a model car for each trim level for their line up might incentivize them to not be stingy on test drives (and when the car is past a certain point they sell it at a discount).

Another portion could be turned into electric charging stations using solar. With how many dealerships there are I think this is a neat use of the wasted lot space.

So all in all, you then would go check out the cars, order the car you want online, and then pick it up on arrival at the showroom, all while doing away with the haggling and downright scummy tactics dealers currently use. The fact they default to screwing unwitting customers over should be warning enough that there needs to be change.

agree on needing to sit in a car first, though I could do without the middleman. i'm kidding myself if I think the savings will get passed on to me!

> educate the consumers

I have yet to find to a situation where the overall direction of education flow was from the dealership salesperson to me.

That effect was significantly magnified when I was shopping for, and ultimately purchased, an EV. The only thing I can recall the salesperson knew more about that car than I did was where the dealership kept the keys.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com