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That is very impressive actually. Though your typo made me laugh out loud.

> Someone on Twitter recently posted their Model S turning over 400km with only $3k in maintenance costs.

400 kilometers and a $3k maintenance bill somewhat reflects the image of Tesla that you see a lot on the internet. Whether or not that is actually the case.

Distance typo fixed, thank you! Happy to have provided a chuckle.

> 400k km

? LOL

Why not just use megameters? 400Mm

OK, something about that looks odd. But what's the point in SI units if you can't actually use them?

Maybe 250k miles?

Ah but is a megameter 10^6m or 2^20m? ;)

That would be a Mebimeter, according to SI. Whether or not this sounds silly is another issue.

When have you ever seen a car dashboard display Mm. It was perfectly clear what they were trying to convey.

I am totally using Mm next time someone talks cars/bikes with me. Thank you.

Nope, miles are always a bad choice.

> "Diplomacy is the art of saying “good dog” until you make it to the rock."

this was new to me and the 'to the rock' part didn't make sense to me, so i looked it up.

http://marvin.cs.uidaho.edu/About/quotes.html this page says it's actually this: "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a rock."

find a rock as in kill them? :O

No canines we’re harmed in using the turn of phrase in my above comment.

It doesn't have to be killing them, if a stray hostile dog is harassing you throwing a rock at it might make it go away

"the" was especially confusing to me and also had to look it up.

Unfortunately, manufacturers' interests are often not aligned with retail customers' interests.

For example, with Tesla, the company optimizes delivery numbers of cars sold by sacrificing quality control, and their service center model is anemic and almost an afterthought, especially when it comes to addressing the QC issues their customers experience.

For every Tesla with 400k miles on them with a few thousand dollars in maintenance costs, there are a dozen cars that are delivered to customers like this one[1] from today on r/TeslaLounge, with 17 blatant issues upon delivery that QC should have caught early on in the process. There are stories on that subreddit about customers having to wait months, without a loaner car, for service centers to fix their cars or to even get service centers on the phone about the status of their repairs and cars.

Dealerships act as an intermediary customer that can perform QC, repairs, customization, service, maintenance, reject deliveries etc that manufacturers choose to skimp out on.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/v3jkn3/update_...

> the company optimizes delivery numbers of cars sold by sacrificing quality control

How do you know this? Did you see their internal data? There are lots of anecdotes going around about Tesla's quality. However, with all the TeslaQ it is hard to believe that there is real correlation between anecdotes and data. Here are my anecdotes - I owned 6 Teslas over last several years. Not one of them had any QC issues. I had one service done because I hit tire debris and front break dust shield started making noises. Tesla fixed that for me quickly with no charge. As for the data - during earnings calls they mentioned that they do pay close attention to their customer experience data and they had period of time where service was lagging. But they started addressing this issue and saw improvements. The way they are growing I do believe they need to keep close eye on customer experience, but looks like they understand that themselves and use data to make sure they are on top of this. Unfortunately there's not much reliable independent data to have better understanding of this issue.

Add: The intent of my comment was to ask if parent info is based on specific data or just anecdotes. As an example, I gave my own anecdotes and mentioned that they are not reliable correlation to the data. Somehow the responses I've got are all about anecdotes, mine or others, also some personal judgement of my ability to appreciate cars or judgment of my life circumstances that required me to have these many Teslas. Can we get back to discussing the main point I'm making - do we have data to make any of these judgements?

>I owned 6 Teslas over the last several years.

??????? Why on earth would you need this many Teslas? Maybe if you are buying so many teslas then it makes sense why you don't need them serviced - you barely give them enough time to wear themselves out!

If you buy the latest and greatest and continuously upgrade to the next greatest it’s not that expensive; often cheaper than leasing.

Maybe it's cheaper than leasing the latest and greatest, but not everyone has an unlimited pool of money all the time, and the assumption that this type of purchasing behavior is in any way typical or representative of anything is absurd and out of touch at best, and purposefully misleading for the benefit of Tesla at worst.

It looks like you knee-jerked pretty hard at that line, because they didn't say anything at all about their purchasing behavior being typical. They just said the QC was good on the cars they got.

And in general the issues I heard about were from-the-factory issues, so only having the cars for 1-2 years each wouldn't matter much.

Do you have data on that? I thought cars lose a lot of their value as soon as they drive off the lot.

And how long of leases are you talking about?

Finance companies have a good idea of what a car will be worth after you are done with it. That is why they limit miles: they know the loss of value from miles and don't want to know lose money. Their goal is when the lease ends and you turn the car in the dealer pays the entire remaining balance and sells it as a used car. Dealers make more money from selling used cars than new (everyone knows what they pay for cars and won't allow any profit, but for used you don't know what they really paid for it).

When you trade in your car the dealer will give you an offer for your car. Depending on demand this may be higher or lower than what the lease company wants. When it is higher you win. When it is lower leasing would be better. Either way though, the dealer is pricing in a profit margin from selling your car, so if you don't trade in your car but sell it yourself you can get this profit margin in exchange for your time.

In the end it is about risk management. What will the car be worth in 3 years when you are ready for a new one? Nobody knows for sure 3 years in advance. Sometimes it will be worth a lot more than the lease company expects and so you win, sometimes it will be worth less and so you lose. If you don't trade your car in you probably will always win in monetary terms, though I'm not sure if it is worth the time.

How does sales tax fit in? If you buy the car, you have to pay sales tax on the whole thing right? I don't think that happens on a lease. And when you sell it, that buyer has to pay sales tax too right? And if that buyer is a dealer, then the next real customer has to pay sales tax again right? So sales tax reduces the liquidity and efficiency of selling cars, with no negative effect on leasing. This gets worse and worse the shorter the period of time. skolos owned 6 Teslas in several years, so this would be a big factor.

If you live in a state with no sales tax, then you avoid this problem.

different in each state, but in general a lease is a sale for tax purposes. Check with a tax accountant in your state for details if you care.

I did the math before buying in 2021, and leasing didnt make any sense.

the reason is that tesla price increases and backlog creates added value for aftermarket teslas.

As it happens, I can sell the used car i purchased over a year ago for more than i originally paid.

Last two years used Tesla prices were higher than new ones. You need to wait up to a year to get new Tesla though. So you could actually make some money while driving newest versions of cars.

I guess it makes sense for cars that there's a shortage of but you're still able to get. In a normal market I don't think it makes sense.

Still, it probably would have been more profitable to keep driving just 1 Tesla, and sell the other Teslas as essentially new as soon as you got them.

Sorry there's just no way this is true. It doesn't even make sense. For this to be possible the loan payment would have to be less than the lease payment after depreciation. Even before depreciation this almost never happens without a huge down payment (which negates the point entirely).

>I owned 6 Teslas over the last several years.

Isn't this also terrible for the environment? The resources it takes to make one car is a lot.

I don't think the poster buys a Tesla, drives it for a few months, and sends it to a junkyard. I'm pretty sure that just because the other person stops owning it, the Tesla does not stop being useful to SOMEbody.

Well clearly I understand that but I would think the less new cars being produced the better. There are a lot of cars sitting in used car lots.

> Not one of them had any QC issues.

Same in my experience, though it's not as extensive as yours.

It's surprising how often you see negative anecdotes about quality control amplified as representative of a larger trend. It often seems there is an agenda compelling many to work so hard circulating negative opinions.

There is a much easier explanation: Disgruntled customers are always more vocal than happy ones.

On reddit, it seems the most persistent repeaters of negative Tesla stories work in the car industry, and have never owned a Tesla.

There are definitely some disgruntled customers, too.

Just because you don't notice issues don't mean there aren't issues. Tesla is widely regarded by "car people," both those who own them and those who don't, as having some of the worst fit and finish of any production car in the US. It's been that way since the Roadster. Here's a video review of the most expensive Tesla you can buy, by someone who rates cars professionally and rates it among the best he's ever driven, with paint flecks on the mirrors and other pretty egregious issues given the price point - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qen0ZlZM0ZA - and the video is less than a year old so it's unlikely given the long history of these and similar issues that they've made radical changes to their processes in the last 9 months or so.

Paint flecks on the mirror? I'm dying.

Sloppy and chipped paint is pretty crazy when you're paying $130k+ for a car.

I'm here to chime in on having very few QC issues on my model 3 despite having gotten it in 2018. Not sure where all the service nightmare stories come from, every time I have dealt with them they've fixed the issue.

yea i've had 2012 leaf for decade now, zero issues. i've had a tesla for over a year now, zero issues. From what i understand, if i do have an issue, i'll just have to push some buttons in the tesla app, and everything will be figured out for me.

I think a lot of the contrary voices are people scarred by ICE experiences and searching for comparable "gotcha boogeyman" to EV's to satisfy themselves with their current car situation, whatever it is.

Dealerships are rent seeking entities that exist purely due to laws that force consumers to deal with them and only them. They are not in either consumer or manufacturers interest.

This is an extreme absolutist position that seems immediately falsified by the detailed and nuanced post it is in reply to

If dealerships are so beloved by customers and so beneficial to them, why would they lobby so hard against customers doing business with manufacturers? They wouldn't need to if customers truly preferred them. Instead, Car salesman are despised even more than lawyers! Everything a dealer can do, a mechanic can do for cheaper. It's a ripoff and the law forces it to be a ripoff

Because customers don't know what value dealers provide. They think direct would be better because they only see the negatives of the current situation and not the positives.

Which is really true for pretty much everyone in this argument on both sides.

It's the lobbies that prop up the status quo because it has become very profitable, but it is easy to forget that the status quo exists in the first place as a series of compromises designed first and foremost for consumer protection against lemons.

I whole heartedly agreed on this point but have grown to see another side of the issue. I don’t want to over glamorize it but in the north east car dealers have done exceptionally well, and often were the wealthiest people in the towns they serviced. A dealership in Pennsylvania recounted to me how the founder of the dealership more or less built the town square and at one pointed owned more than half the town. Now this may seem negative but the founder is long dead and the dealership now employees a several dozen locals all making very strong salaries, all with minimal educational requirements (just a bachelors cause it’s in vogue).

Overall I guess the point I want to make is even thought it is rent seeking (many industries are) this one seems to provide for so many communities all across America. I find it hard to believe that ford will pass up the savings to the consumers. We all know that profits will be returned to shareholders.

This only convinces me dealerships should be gotten rid of. That's a lot of money sucked out of the car buying process. I'd rather pay less to a manufacturer than pay for a dealer to own a town in PA.

wow 17 borderline cosmetic opinions on a fully functional vehicle.

how dare they sell that vehicle.

Not to mention that when they bought it, Tesla gave the buyer the opportunity to reject it and have another specimen manufactured at no cost. they decided to keep it because it appears their vanity is literally only skin deep.

Those are issues that would be caught by any competent quality control process, and that particular example is just from the top of the r/TeslaLounge page from a few hours ago. At any point you can log into spaces for Tesla customers and find dozens of stories of just like that one, or worse, when it comes to quality control or service center service[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11].

And you make a great point about the importance of rejecting deliveries, which is exactly what a dealership would have done upon inspection instead of forcing layman retail customers to do it free and to their detriment. We even have Tesla customers asking why other customers choose to take deliveries at the end of the fiscal quarter[12], because Tesla has a reputation of pushing out as many vehicles as they can in order to boost delivery numbers, even if that means delivering cars in poor condition. When quality and service is consistently that bad, you can't blame the customer for accepting a delivery of the car they spent tens to hundreds of thousands of dollars on.

Also, your comment goes against HN guidelines[13]:

> Be kind. Don't be snarky. Have curious conversation; don't cross-examine. Please don't fulminate. Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community.

> Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive.

[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/u9v1mo/off_my_...

[2] https://old.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/rqie4g/gotta_lov...

[3] https://twitter.com/aprildawn78/status/1481450029462212616?s...

[4] https://old.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/nurlbg/my_model_...

[5] https://old.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/qzr5tx/how_is_th...

[6] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/comically-poor-deliv...

[7] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/my-first-model-3-exp...

[8] https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/took-delivery-today-...

[9] https://old.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/j59ovh/so_tesl...

[10] https://old.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/smettt/terrify...

[11] https://old.reddit.com/r/TeslaLounge/comments/l0ownx/my_y_ha...

[12] https://old.reddit.com/r/RealTesla/comments/j59dp1/tesla_own...

[13] https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

it's also against guidelines to police comments in other comments...

This is my first time in 12 years on HN that mild sarcasm has been treated as confrontational. I hope you are okay.

Due to non-random sampling, anecdotes are not evidence when it comes to a phenomena at this scale. Even four randomly sampled entries are better than 100 posts of people complaining if the latter are more likely to appear in your feed than someone getting theirs with no issue.

You need an actually random sampling of delivered Teslas to determine how extensive QC issues are and whether the average one can go 400k km with only $3k servicing. Also, they defects reputed to vary substantially over time (e.g. one model year might have 5x the rate of two years later).

Is there really that much service revenue for modern ICE cars that isn't stuff BEV cars need too? Modern powertrains are pretty bulletproof, 10k oil changes and 30k air filters will get you to 100k miles. "Tune ups" aren't really a thing anymore either, especially in the first 100k.

Brakes? Maybe you're cutting out one or two pad slaps in that 100k.

Oil changes? Yeah, you've eliminated those, the lowest margin service dealers do.

Suspension components, air conditioning, etc? No difference, and that stuff shouldn't need to be touched in the first 100k anyway.

Tires? BEVs eat tires.

Still need wiper blades, cabin filters, etc. But those aren't big items either way.

I guess I just don't see where all this recurring service revenue comes from. Cars just don't break until they're 10-15 years old. Maybe some cars are really that unreliable still?

I own a fairly reliable ICE car from 2009 with ~100k miles, and I've had to get servicing for belts, water pump, brake pads, sway bars, oil changes, etc. I estimate I spent about $5k over the life the car on servicing.

That's excluding tires, wiper blades and air filter changes.

Owners of less reliable ICE cars probably spend more.

It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles.

I have two vehicles over 100k, one closing in on 200k soon, and my maintenance on both is less than 5k.

Of course, the part no one talks about:

1. How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range?

2. Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

> How will you do a family vacation beyond the EV range?

Stopping for a meal, bathroom, and stretch break every 300 miles or so?

> Who pays to replace the ~$15k battery and when?

I'd typically buy a new ICE car before the 400k kilometers cited, as repair costs accelerate, so this isn't really a significant difference.

I can do 900 miles in about 12 hours, at my max.

With a 300 mile range, I'd need at least 2 stops that are 4-6 hours, unless if I find a super rapid charger. That turns a sucky 12 hour day with 1-2 hours of stops into a 16 hour trip with probably 1-2 hours of additional stops still.

So now I need to power through or get a hotel.

Sure, if you rule out rapid chargers, the math looks worse, but that's a bit like complaining about the availability of gasoline in the early 1900s.

There's already a pretty extensive network of rapid chargers, and it's growing all the time.

Can I pull into any charger, pay whatever I need to, for 5-15 minutes and be on my way for another 300+ miles?

My understanding is that you were stuck with the charging network that each manufacturer is making.

Ah, one of those. Typically most people are happy to stop for 30-45 minutes every 300 miles of driving.

The only people I know who only stop to refuel and then carry on until they've basically driven 12 hours straight are just trying to flex, it's some masculine thing.

More and more vehicles are getting 100-150kW charging, which definitely pushes a full charge more into the 25-40 minutes range for 80kWh EVs.

I wonder if having smaller cars would help as well, American cars/"trucks" always seem so pointlessly oversized. If the number of single occupant trips in London in things like Minis makes me sad, then I don't even want to think about single occupant trips in F150s in America.

Wow. You did a fantastic job at attempting to change my mind.

Are you seriously resorting to a manphobic ad hominem attack at someone's masculinity for simply pointing out stopping for 4-6 hours every 4-6 hours of driving obviously doubles trip time, and would require those who are trying to save money on flying, but not wanting to waste a half-week driving to the beach or a vacation spot is obviously because that person is on some sort of bench pressing flex thing?

Perhaps you forget the US is 40x bigger than Great Britain, so obviously what works for the majority of those in Britain (e.g. 300 miles) may not cleanly translate to other countries. I'm not telling you to not get an EV. It might work perfectly for you. But as of yet, all those advocating for it and blaming the problems of the world on ICEs still hasn't addressed the basic concerns many people still have about EVs.

Tell me your a condescending narcissist without telling me your a condescending narcissist again.

Lmao >The only people I know This is quite obviously an anecdote, never did I refer to you.

We can only draw comparisons from our own experiences and the majority of people I know do not drive such long distances, the ones I do know make a point of stressing the fact that they do not stop whenever I have gone on a long journey with them.

I haven't forgotten the relative size of the US, but the same applies to any country of relative size. I guess it begs the question of _why_ you all drive so far. Does land mass correlate to miles driven? Is it because of an emphasis of road infrastructure over public transport/rail? Hmmm

> It doesn't sound that reliable if you've had to replace that much already with just 100k miles.

My observation is that it depends on the brand of the car. If it's a Toyota or Honda, or other well to do brand that people with credit scores reminiscent of FDA minimum cooking temperatures cannot afford it's the owner's fault that the timing belt snapped at exactly six miles more than the recommended change interval, they should have got it done proactively.

If it's a Nissan, GM or <clutches pearls> Chrysler then it's obviously the car's fault that it needs a fair number of suspension parts after spending 120k being fully sent over rural gravel roads with 300lb of tools in the trunk.

This pattern of double standards that absolves "things that should be nice" from blame when they fail to meet those expectations and blames more modest products even when their failures are reasonable can be seen across many classes of products, not just cars.

I've been using the vacation reasoning for a long time. I've just about convinced myself to get an EV and to rent an ICE for vacations. It keeps the mileage off my odometer that way, too.

I think it’s worth noting that mileage doesn’t necessarily correspond to maintenance expenses. It’s only a rough rule of thumb.

People like to talk about mileage because it’s an easy-to-measure stand in for the age of a car based on its usage. But over time they forget that like in humans, there’s a lot of variation at the same age.

There’s other factors like road conditions, cost of parts, cost of labor in different parts of the country, unexpected events like fender benders, etc. that the mileage number doesn’t capture.

The same 100k mile car driven in a leafy suburb where not much goes on is going to be different from a car with the same mileage driven under harsher conditions.

> The same 100k mile car driven in a leafy suburb where not much goes on is going to be different from a car with the same mileage driven under harsher conditions.

Scotty Killer on YouTube said something slightly different. He said highway miles are almost one tenth of city miles. Or in other words, stop and go traffic is ten times as bad as constant driving without traffic. At least for the engine and the transmission I guess.

They don't make their service revenue primarily from brand new cars, for the obvious reasons you've stated. It's when the timing chains, water pumps, head gaskets, piston rings, clutches, etc break, or the preventative maintenance to keep them from breaking (Audi timing chains, 10x $$$ if you don't replace them on schedule because of the interference engine), including the regular fluid flushes, battery replacements, air filters, etc. 80% margins on the little things add up :)

my car tells me to take it for service minimum once a year, for maintenance that's going to cost $500-$800 depending on the alternating schedule. 2-3 hours in the bay max. It's mostly visual, filters and fluids... material costs are small.

If there are problems, it'll be $170/hour plus parts...

A lot of people just do what the computer says and take it to the dealer. The workshop is always full... it has about 20 bays.

That's a lot of income for the dealership. If you drive a lot it'll be more than one a year...

I do as much maintenance as I can myself. If it's something I cannot manage (last year I had a split hose on the transmission radiator line) I take it to an independent shop.

Using my experience with a ICE Chevrolet from 20k-120k miles basically nothing big happened before 100k, especially nothing that wouldn't happen in an EV. One set of tires replaced, front brakes, and a couple tire alignments. I did transmission fluid and spark plugs at 100k, and had a catalytic converter replaced and a coolant leak after 100k. None of that went to a dealership though.

That’s true if your vehicle came from Japan or South Korea.

US big 3 or German cars are a maintenance nightmare.

I have owned F150's all my life, But a 3 year old off lease used one, drive it for 5-8 years, trade in for a 3 year old off lease used one

Other than normal fluid changes, I can count on 1 hand the number of repairs I have had to do on any of them.

I've bought 3 cars since 2008, I've spent $0 at the dealer on maintenance, they're all ICE... you shouldn't be going to the dealer unless it's warranty work. [well partly true, had a covered recall].

That said I had a dealer cuss me out for bringing them a quote from a mechanic for the same clutch replacement. "I can't f**ing cover my dealership like that" as if it was my problem. Same dealer who charged me $2k for a repair when they had the recall letter in their inbox.

Sounds great pre pandemic, but these days the indies can't get parts the way the dealers can.

Heck, the dealers even have a hard time getting parts.

Right now sure... pay who you have to if you need the part. But supply issues will get solved, this is a temp situation.

I'm solving the interim by having 4 vehicles + mass transit + wfh.

> I'm solving the interim by having 4 vehicles + mass transit + wfh.

Is that, maybe, a little bit ... overkill? Quadruple redundancy, plus a failover, plus reduced demand. Phew!

my car, my kids car, my wife's car, my motorcycle + bought near a bus route to work + pandemic. Son's car will go away sometime but it's around if I need a replacement car.

Junkyards are an option for indy mechanics, unless insurance is being billed. I had a choice between maybe 3 months for a new part or next-day for a junkyard pull. Chose the junkyard pull, but I trust my mechanic to find control arms that aren't bent.

$3k in maintenance costs for 400,000km? I call bull shit. In Tesla tire sizes, you're looking at $1000 for a cheap ass set of tires. Certainly not gonna last 100,000 miles either.

Specifically says not including tires in the Twitter post.

Excluding the most expensive wear items is misleading though.

Tyre cost is highly variable depending on driving style etc - it makes sense to exclude it.

Buying new tires and balancing them can be done in a tire shop, no dealership needed?

You don't need to buy tires at the dealership, and in fact most people don't.

No, certainly you can go to Discount Tire and buy a set of bargain basement $400 20" tires for your $100,000 car.

The entry-level Tesla 3 was $35k, and most tire shops have better prices even on the fancy tires than the dealerships.

The entry level 3 hasn't been $35K for several years.

The entry level 3 with absolutely nothing on it is $47K before tax. In any case, this specific example was a high end Model S.

Electric personal mobility devices are now more popular than mechanical bycicles and motorcycles.

Electric devices require significantly more servicing than mechanical ones. On the flip side, people seem content to treat electric devices like they're disposable and just buy a new one every year.

I don't think this dynamic won't hold for larger-sized EV's.

>Someone on Twitter recently posted their Model S turning over 400,000km with only $3k in maintenance costs.

Sounds like a Toyota

> dealership interests aren’t aligned with EV manufacturers. There’s very little service revenue

Citation needed. Both my EVs and ICEs needed similar amount of service. Breakage of drive trains are super rare nowadays (expect for over engineered performance stuff and just broken designs), same as breakages of batteries (cough, Bolt, cough).

All stuff my cars needed a service for in last 20 years were comfort features, gizmos, internal materials, electrical goblins, etc. Both ICEs and EVs.

Your ICE doesn't need oil changes, transmission fluid, a timing belt, spark plugs, or any of that?

Oil change is maintenance not service. But ok, let’s include that. It’s done at the same time as rotating tires, so it only adds few extra bucks of revenue for dealers (yes, you can rotate yourself/at other places, same as you can do oil change).

Transmission fluid for modern cars lasts about 100k miles. So you’ll do it maybe once, unlikely at your dealer as you won’t pay dealer tax for an old beater.

Exactly the same for timing belt and spark plugs.

Drive trains aren’t money makers for dealers for a long time.

Timing belt is the only expensive thing on that list (because of labor) and very few American market vehicles use timing belts anymore. The market has gone almost entirely to timing chains these days.

We’re back to timing chains? I remember we used to have them back in the old days.

> Citation needed.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/government-ev-ice-maintenanc...

https://www.consumerreports.org/car-repair-maintenance/pay-l...

https://www.energy.gov/eere/vehicles/articles/fotw-1190-june...

https://insideevs.com/news/527165/study-evs-ownership-40perc...

https://publications.anl.gov/anlpubs/2021/05/167399.pdf

These are very high quality sources, thank you.

The best citation on this site.