Nokia announces the Lumia 800, the 'first real Windows Phone' | Hacker News Reader

Nokia announces the Lumia 800, the 'first real Windows Phone'

engadget.com

118 pointsglymor120 comments

Wow. Part of me wants this to suck, just so there are only iPhone and Android to worry about ever developing for, but this actually looks good enough to consider.

I looked at WP through BizSpark a little, and it looks easier to develop for than iOS or Android, at least for corporate apps. It's possible RIM will lose out in the "corporate owned/managed" market to WP, especially if they can build in equivalent or better security and management tools.

If I were MS/Nokia, I'd heavily subsidize this in ways other than just reducing the retail price; maybe even go for a $799 retail MSRP but heavily discount through the carriers or through channels to $0-400. You want the price to make it seem premium (or at least as good as a high-end Android or iPhone 4S), but they're the new entrant, so using price to promote the product might be a win. Maybe something like "$400 credit for any smartphone trade-in" at retail. Or, bundle "we pay your phone bill for 3 months" or something.

Developing for the platform is definitely trivial, as you mentioned (disclaimer: I worked at MSFT for years, but I've done an iOS app with over 1M downloads, so I've seen both).

Owning the device is a pain, though.

1) Lack of apps. No Pandora. No Bump. No Uber. That trendy new mobile startup? Nope. I sincerely believe that nobody in any YC startup doing mobile even _has_ a Windows VM, except on the test team.

2) Quality of the non-Live experience. It's easy to hook up your gmail account, but then every time you add a contact, it nags you about which to add it to. Plus, when I was just using Live mail (experiment), I'd get ~20 hours of battery life out and about; with gmail, I get max 5. I'm not sure what's going on there, but 5 is not quite enough.

Still, there's always hope. But I'd more heavily consider developing for it than using it as your One True Device.

I suspect Microsoft/BizSpark/Nokia could solve the "nobody in a YC startup doing mobile even has a windows phone" for about the cost of one person's salary for a year.

I've always had both Windows Live and Gmail accounts hooked up on my LG, and I've never had the phone last less than a full day.

Maybe it's something else, then, but I don't know what it could be -- I don't have any background apps and I set it to ping for mail every 30 minutes. Maybe my LG does poorly when signal strength gets low? (AT&T coverage is spotty in Chicago, particularly near the lake)

But, I could use my old iPhone 3g for a couple of solid days, even listening to streaming music and doing stuff on it. With my LG Quantum, I'm almost afraid to turn the screen on to see if I have any text messages.

I just finished my first Mango app and it was a overall nicer experience than Android. Overall on par with iOS for me, if a bit easier.

Balmer: Developers, Developers, Developers

It's what you can focus on for the long term when founders and early employees control enough of the company to ignore Wall Street's quarterly timeline.

Bootstrapping has long term payoffs.

I like the data binding stuff but other than that I found XAML a huge pain. Lots of auto-generated stuff mixed in with stuff that I edit as well. It doesn't break but I'd rather have some separation between generated stuff and stuff that I write. (e.g. the generation gap pattern, often useful for models)

Navigation is a blessing and a curse, some kind of modal view or overlay would ease the pain there. I don't know if MS is working on it but it's frustrating that they claim it's an "edge case". Almost every single login or sign up window is a transient thing like that, and you can't navigate in a navigation handler so chaining transitions is a headache.

Other than those 2 issues it was good, but I would develop for iOS and even Android over WP7 any day.

The generated code is separated from code you write. In 99.9% of cases you should never even see the code that is generated. Your code should all be in files you explicitly create. And using patterns like MVVM will mean that you actually barely even touch code-behind files (although its OK if you do -- just it won't be necessary).

I never got into it enough to really understand MVVM. It looks like MVC with a different name to me, which leads me to believe I don't get it yet.

Perhaps I was doing it wrong. When I used the GUI to layout UI it was modifying the same XAML that I was also changing manually. I admit to being ignorant about modern versions of Visual Studio, this one trivial app I created was the first time I used .NET, C#, XAML, and Visual Studio. I left Windows programming with VB6 back in the day before switching to Linux.

OK, I see what you're saying. You're doing layout with the designer and seeing the XAML is changing.

Yes, the XAML is the underlying representation of the layout. i think most people are thinking about the code that gets generated and called via "InitializeComponent". What gets generated after the XAML compiler parses the XAML.

You should view the designer as simply a convenient way to edit XAML. Like using a designer to edit HTML.

MVVM is sort of like MVC, although really closer to MVP. Think of MVVM as MVP that where databinding coupled with the View Model is the Presenter.

I'd say ui designer is convenient at the cost of potentially adding cruft, again not much different than using say dreamweaver.

I've been doing WPF for a the past year, and I've learned to just edit XAML manually while staring at the designer for instant feedback.

Competition is good for all platforms. Without it you have stagnation.

I was just thinking the same thing. Wishing this to suck, but knowing that this actually is too good to pass.

I've developed in the past for Samsung's Bada OS, Palm's WebOS, a lot of apps for Android and right now I'm working with Windows mobile. I have to say it is rather easy to develop for, and i love how you can take for granted quite a few specs (similar to the iPhone).

Although i'm sure WP7 won't have the success Android and the iPhone have, it's definitely something worth looking at.

In the UK (and I believe much of the rest of Europe), the monthly line rental is basically paying off a loan for the phone. You can get (just about) any phone for £0 up front if you're willing to pay enough every month.

E.g. if the phone costs £500 out of contract ("pay as you go"), it will probably be free on a 18-month contract that costs £40/month. If you chose a £20/month contract then you'd have to pay about £200 up front.

Same thing further up north, in Norway. But I get the impression that it's not like this in the US? More people either buy in without a contract, or 2-year contracts?

The major carriers in the US are all set up for 2 year contracts, which come with subsidized phones. You can - technically - go month to month, but it's not a publicized or promoted feature, and doesn't come with substantial discounts.

There are alternatives - T-Mobile just came out with a $50/unlimited month-to-month plan - and there are some smaller carriers with month-to-month options, but they're the exception.

Until Windows Phone supports an encrypted filesystem I can't really see stealing any substantial amount corporate marketshare. Now that Android 4 is out, it's the only mainstream smartphone that does not have this feature out of the box (and pretty much the most common and sensible requirement in ActiveSync provisioning is encrypted storage).

How do I encrypt the contents of my apple iPhone 4?

I couldn't see anything that looked like encryption in the Settings window.

Set a pass code. It encrypts storage transparently after that. There are ways to force device security using lion server (or iCloud or active sync) too.

Unfortunately there are some flaws in the implementation, but it is at least easy.

Ah, I never thought it encrypted the drive because when I plug my iPhone into my computer it's still password protected but I can browse the photo's on my iPhone.

Looks like they're taking your advice, since, in the UK on Orange anyway, it'll come with a free Xbox 360. http://studio.orange.co.uk/shop/nokia800/

I hope they rename it for the spanish market: http://www.wordmagicsoft.com/dictionary/es-en/lumia.php

I don't think that's a very common word in Spanish. Both my wife and I are fairly well-read Mexicans and neither of us had ever heard or seen the word. The Royal Spanish Academy's dictionary does include it, but they add the annotation "p. us.", which means "little used". So I don't think many people in either Mexico or, judging by the dictionary, Spain will know the word, but Spanish does vary quite a bit from country to country, so it might be more or less common somewhere else.

+1 to everyone else saying it's not a common word. My Cuban family and I certainly have never used it, and I don't know any other Hispanics/Latinos who have used it before.

It may not be a common word but the fact that it has such a negavtive meaning is not good for the brand particularly if its a name for the whole lineup and not just one device.

That word has no meaning in Puerto Rican Spanish.

jajaja i didnt know that!

Here's my dream scenario: Nokia offers the same hardware with two different OS selections and also has Qt working on both Meego and WP platforms.

This would obviously be a win-win situation for both the developer and the user. But this would be beneficial for Nokia as well, because:

1) It'd provide Nokia with hard data based on sales and user feedback on which platform performs better in real-world scenarios. Currently, the decision to drop Meego for WP platform is mostly based on "hopes and promises".

2) Having both platforms compete on even terms would also improve the overall Nokia experience on both platforms as this open and fair competition would motivate both the Microsoft and the Meego teams to do better.

So, why this wouldn't happen?

(disclaimer: Nokia employee)

On the one hand, maintaining two OS teams for the same hardware would be a waste of resources. On the other hand, I have heard stories of how Microsoft would often commit several teams to build a product to the same spec: the team that got something market-ready first was handsomely rewarded, and the teams that didn’t got reassigned to wash Bill Gates’s car. On the other other hand, Microsoft (alas) has more cash to burn on this kind of adventure than Nokia does.

Nokia’s pre-Elop strategy was to encourage app developers to use Qt, which could be compiled to run on either Symbian or Meego, and then the company could gracefully phase out Symbian in favor of Meego. I work on back-end stuff rather than on apps, so I don’t know how well this could have worked in practice, but I did observe that when my company phone was a (Maemo) N900, the Ovi Maps client for Maemo was several revisions behind the client for Symbian.

I have heard stories of how Microsoft would often commit several teams to build a product to the same spec: the team that got something market-ready first was handsomely rewarded...

This is how large companies should run projects. Bureaucracies often suck because they have a captive audience -- because they have no competition. Development teams can suck for exactly the same reasons.

In comparison to the potential impact of bad software in a large company, the cost of 1 or 2 extra development teams is chump change. I remember being in line at the airport to pick up a rental car, thinking, "The software this rental car company uses is clearly very bad. They won't be in business for much longer." I noticed a few years ago, that they were bought. Actually, I just looked it up and they were delisted in 2002.

As a counterpoint, there are innumerable software projects that would better our world and create wealth, but only a limited number of developers. Assigning two teams to do nearly the same thing is a waste.

Yes, but those are very different contexts -- mine was the big corporation with tons of cash on hand, with in-house development projects that could facilitate activities generating 100's of millions of billions of dollars. Going the extra mile to ensure the organization has access to the best of several options has a definite payoff.

Disclaimer: I have never owned a handset from a maker other than Nokia :) I just want you guys back to the smartphone game.

> On the one hand, maintaining two OS teams for the same hardware would be a waste of resources.

Nokia will have to make a very serious platform decision in the not-so-distant feature. If resources spent on developing both will place that decision on sound arguments, I say it could be worth it. The tech scene is not (yet) persuaded that Meego is a dead end and a re-invented, unproven Windows Phone platform is the last chance to save Nokia.

The tech scene is not (yet) persuaded that Meego is a dead end

Perhaps the tech scene isn't, but everyone else is. Aside from anyone else, phone operators really aren't going to be interested in stocking Meego handsets because no-one wants them or even knows what Meego is.

That's apparently wrong:

http://nokiagadgets.com/2011/10/20/n9-broke-pre-order-record...

in Russia, where it broke the countries record for pre-orders

What was the previous record? For all I know it could be 10.

the phone was sold out by the end of the N9 launch in Russia’s Nokia flagship Store

So it sold out in the main flagship store? That's not really saying a lot. We also don't know how much stock they got in.

> On the other hand, I have heard stories of how Microsoft would often commit several teams to build a product to the same spec: the team that got something market-ready first was handsomely rewarded, and the teams that didn’t got reassigned to wash Bill Gates’s car.

Apple did this for iPhone; two teams, the leader of one became a senior vice president, the leader of the other makes thermostats.

This story is not proven. There exists counter evidence from the thermostats guy himself.

>"Currently, the decision to drop Meego for WP platform is mostly based on "hopes and promises"."

There's a long track record of successful B2B partnerships between Microsoft and hardware providers, a standardized hardware spec, an integrated lognterm roadmap, and a deep bench of talent in Redmond to provide support.

On the other hand, Nokia woke up to find iOS eating their lunch and realized that OS development was no longer profitable enough to consider one of their core competencies - the paradigm shift had left them trailing.

Some strongly disagree with the `successful' part: http://www.asymco.com/2011/02/11/in-memoriam-microsofts-prev...

Successful for Microsoft, indeed. How much money does Dell make on an average Laptop?

Nokia should have taken the meego-road.

Dell had more operating income last year than eBay or Amazon or Adobe.

Michael Dell is worth $15 billion.

I guess we have different measures of success.

Any app that wasn't specifically designed for Windows Phone 7 is going to feel really out of place of the platform.

I'd be very surprised if they weren't already working on a Qt to CIL compiler.

Don't you mean a C++ to CIL compiler?

The problem is that very few would develop for Meego, even in the absence of WP7. As Nokia's CEO said, the smartphone game has changed from a battle of devices into a war of ecosystems.

At the moment WP7 is an obscure product, if Nokia successfully push the OS then Microsoft will gain hugely (being the owner of the platform), whereas Nokia will suddenly face competition from manufacturers with much smaller margins.

Agreed, that forces them to keep churning out designs products that the public perceive as premium and the competitors can't easily replicate.

They might then look at leveraging the right to modify the OS that no other OEM got, apart from a big bag of much needed cash from MS to survive this year without spiraling down in the face of marketshare losses, so I guess that evens it out a little.

Ouch. Are they implying the other WP7 phones are just cheap fakes? The other OEM's must not be too happy about this today. Why do I get the feeling the other OEM's were just "used" to help WP7 survive for another year until the "real" WP7 manufacturer arrives?

I suspect it's the other way around. MSFT bet the company on WP7, clearly has spent oodles of time and effort on it, but all of the launch devices were snoozefests - some were outright, lazy ripoffs of the OEMs' existing Android phones.

There was nothing unique, compelling, or, well, anything about these phones. Most were even exceptionally crappy with the exception of the Samsung. It's clear that none of the OEMs were willing to invest the resources to design and build a piece of hardware that was compelling.

I don't blame Microsoft for shopping around for an "official" manufacturer after that little debacle.

And I say: Finally! One of the weaknesses of Android has always been this clearly demarcated line between hardware and software, as necessitated by its licensing terms and mission statement. iPhones don't suffer from the effects of this - the software plays closely with the hardware, and it shows. With beautiful industrial design (honestly, I'm a fan of this new phone) and tight hardware-software integration, Microsoft can stand a real chance. I say, about time.

I might get downvoted for this sarcasm, but:

That thing looks like a lazy ripoff of the Nokia N9. But oh well. They're both beautiful :-)

Disclaimer: I used to work for Nokia.

Probably was necessary to keep the beautiful hardware intact to change the guts completely in less than a year. Look at iPhone 4S. Almost no visual changes in exterior in a year and a half and the OS didn't change that much either... why change the looks of something that is already so beautiful.

>That thing looks like a lazy ripoff of the Nokia N9.

Doesn't that apply to iPhone4S as well?

It takes 18 months to design a phone and get it to market(along with the carrier approval and changes and all that nonsense). The MS deal was announced in Feb of this year. What did you expect?

Nokia is correct. The first wave of WP7 phones were awful, boring, cheap looking, giant bricks, etc. No standout desirable devices, which hurt the platform. That is the risk of the MS model: your partners will take your OS and put it on cheap crappy hardware and lose to Apple. The Lumia 800 is the first desirable WP7 device.

"they" = Nokia, not Microsoft

It's a sign that an OEM needs to up their game. Do we care about Dell whining that Sony makes better looking laptops? Get with the program, this is how MS took over the PC market, by making the OEMs compete on all things thus benefiting the consumer immensely.

I hope this does well. As a customer in this market I think increased competition can only be a good thing. I'll need a new phone in a few weeks, and I'm now looking forward to comparing the 4S, Nexus and this.

The 800 basically looks like N9 with Windows Phone OS on it. Hope the OS has met its match in this hardware. The pictures sure look stunning.

http://europe.nokia.com/find-products/devices/nokia-n9/speci...

http://www.nokia.co.uk/gb-en/products/phone/lumia800/specifi...

aside from the n9 case design its pretty boring spec and feature wise... but hey its got windows and kids around here are in to that.

I love the look of WP7 and this phone looks decent!

I don't generally use apps, preferring webapps on the mobile browser. How does WP7's browser compare to Android or iOS? I've heard some say its good, others saying its terrible. Its hard to get an unbiased answer after years of thrashing desktop IE.

I've recently purchased a WP7, initially the browser was horrible, now they've upgraded it to IE9 it's much better, but I've still noticed problems on some pages, most notable of which is the new version of the Facebook Touch site. It's much better on my Android and IOS devices than it is on WP7, I'm not sure whether thats IE9's fault or Facebooks for not testing it on those devices, but it looks worse and has a bunch of rendering errors.

So the varying opinions are probably both Mango vs older WP7 versions, and also certain websites not being tested on it (perhaps using mobile webkit specific stuff)

Although IE has been updated to 9 with Mangoo which is a decent browser, i would expect the same problems Opara gets with cutting edge stuff: You are very lucky if the app got tested for IE. I never encountered serious problems though, even with IE7.

IE getting punished by the marketplace for not adhering to standards?! The prayers of a hundred thousand angry webdevs have surely been answered :-)

you assume that most websites care about standards. They don't.[1] Writing truly standards compliant html is too much hassle for most people out there, and brings next to nothing in value. What they do is test it against the important implementations: On the desktop IE 7+, Firefox 3+, Chrome. For mobile sites they test for both webkit flavors, and that's it.

Again, IE mobile is facing the same problems as Opara: Both are very decent browsers, but they have different ways of handling the strange corner cases in the tag soup out there than the market leaders.

errata: The web has become a lot better w/r to standards in the last couple of years. Like I said before, I've encountered very few glitches with IE7, and none so far with IE9.

[1]http://html5.validator.nu/?doc=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.ycombinator...

  > Writing truly standards compliant html is too much hassle
  > for most people out there

This may be true (the "too much hassle" part), but writing standards compliant html is very easy. Or just easy, depending how semantically clean you want it to be.

  > and brings next to nothing in value.

This is wrong. Unless savings on network traffic, time spent on maintenance and page load times are of now value to developer.

In mobile, that's not actually the case. People tend to throw in the -webkit- css prefixes and nothing else. So Opera, Firefox and IE all suffer.

An important caveat: IE9 mobile does not support @font-face.

It used to be really bad, but Mango improved it a lot. For example, pre-Mango IE didn't properly zoom into form text fields like the iPhone does, which made entering text unnecessarily frustrating.

As far as I know pre-Mango IE was ~ 7, while the Mango one is branded as 9, so a huge leap, which might account for some of the difference in opinions.

The term "killer app" seems kind of outmoded, but I'm still waiting for WP7 to show me some really new functionality. I don't think we need something that can do the same stuff we've been doing for years on mobile phones, even if they've streamlined things here and there and have a pretty piece of hardware.

Also, I honestly wonder if the dashboard-oriented UI makes it weak as an app platform. I have two friends who switched from iPhone to WP7 and they've both remarked how few apps they use/buy outside of the included ones. The big tiles are nice, but they also mean one's homescreen is likely to be completely dominated by basic functionality apps (e-mail, contacts, pictures, etc). I'm sure that this enhances those select home screen apps, but I think it discourages adding much. Knock the iPhone interface, but the screens pages of tiny colorful icons do seem to encourage people to collect apps like badges and actually use them more.

"Knock the iPhone interface, but the screens pages of tiny colorful icons do seem to encourage people to collect apps like badges and actually use them more."

Is that a good thing? Because I'm really not sure that it is. I used a W7 phone for a few weeks and I actually loved not having to launch half a dozen different apps- I view a person, I see their Facebook updates, their tweets, photos, etc. all in one place. It's awesome.

FWIW, there is talk of adding folders to WP7 in the next incremental upgrade.

I've found that folders suffer the same fate as the all-purpose drawer of apps - simply having to do the extra app discourages usage of anything in the folder.

Third parties can add similar functionality to their live tiles too, and a lot of apps do that. For example, the package tracker app can update the live tile with the latest location of the package, the twitter app can update with the latest tweets or tweet count etc. That is the whole point of the 'glance and go' mantra. When you're busy doing other stuff, you can just glance at the homescreen to see if there's something important or not. A bunch of icons like every other phone UI designed by Xerox PARC in the early 1980s doesn't do that.

I "get" live tiles and I kind of like the concept. I'm saying that their size has disadvantages, though.

Three "pages" of apps on an iPhone (which is pretty average) hold 52 apps (16 x 3, plus the 4 in the "dock") that you can quickly navigate between. From what I've seen, anything more than 20 apps on WP7 seems to be more trouble than it's worth. At that point, you're exhausting the limit of "glance and go". Anything beyond that you relegate to the drawer of apps that few people actively use.

Those 20 apps are better reserved for the ones that do live updates, although I agree the app drawer can get a little crowded(there's alphabetical search in Mango to mitigate that a little).

But wasn't there a study showing how many apps people use on average? I believe it was far less than 20. Someone made a concept app to add folders to the UI(need to be dev unlocked or jailbroken to use it) http://www.engadget.com/2011/10/25/want-folders-on-your-wind...

"No seriously this time you guys!"

just spent 2 weeks developing an MVP app for a photo sharing startup. passed to the store last night. :) Dev tools are smooth but the biggest issue is the lack of mature open source libraries (Oauth was buggy and i cant find a Tumblr, Blogger cross posting lib)

Is anyone doing high quality non-smart phones anymore? I'm looking for something that's small, sturdy with long battery life. Preferably with good music playing.

I suppose Sony Ericssons's non-android phones are pretty good in that space, are there any others?

Well… Nokia kinda is. Check out the S40 Asha phones Nokia released today. (Though maybe they class as smartphones too?)

Yeah, I guess... I really don't regard Symbian as a viable platform, though

First off, S40 isn't Symbian. Secondly, didn't you just ask for a featurephone then why do you care about the platform?

Oh right. Good point.

Let me rephrase what I really feel: After my three previous Nokia phones, I don't feel Nokia is a viable producer of high quality phones. In fact, part of me wants to punish them for selling me such junk and enveloping me in some sort of cognitive dissonance field that made me think they were doing good work.

Then again, Elop got there to change exactly that, so perhaps I should give them a benefit of doubt now.

Nokia's non-smartphones don't have Symbian. They have S40.

SE planned to stop producing non-Android phones in 2012

As an owner of an N9, this makes me kind of sad.

I wrote a longer comment on another thread, but what this really makes me feel is that, instead of utilising a great design paired with WP7, there's just another indistinct me-too device to be drowned out by the iPhone.

It's sad, because the people who were behind the N9 really seemed like they understood what Apple was on about, how and why the iPhone was like it was.

Nokia may not have gotten all of it, but they were catching on, and with this release, I fear that spirit may have been lost.

Looks like a solid product. Not quite the halo product I was looking for from Nokia but the challenge now with WP7 is getting users and apps for their ecosystem.

Users won't come over until WP7 gets a feature that users can love and show off. Apple builds up a wow feature for pretty much every single iPhone launch: 2g: (revolutionary, at the time) iPhone OS, 3g/s: Apps, 4: Facetime, 4S: Siri. A fast and dedicated camera button (one of WP7's main selling points) doesn't cut it.

I really like this device, but the prospect of using Internet Explorer again really turns me off. The black Lumia 800 with Android 4.0 would be perfect for me.

IE 9 is actually a great little browser on the Mnago version of the OS. What doesn't work on IE9 for you? Which website that you regularly visit on your mobile?

I am probably being biased here. But even nowadays I have very bad experiences with IE on desktop. The simple perspective to use IE again, even on mobile, feels wrong to me.

Unless you can be more specific about what you think is broken for you as a user, I do think you are being unreasonably biased here.

Nokia reportedly was in talks with Google, but Google wasn't willing to make enough concessions to Nokia, so they went with MS.

For t-mobile america users/cheapskates: it's quad-band 3G unlike the N9's penta-band 3G, so I don't see this phone selling on t-mobile at all.

Too bad though, I've been wanting to replace my nexus one with a well-designed easily jailbreakable/sim-unlockable os.

Looking at the specs:

http://www.nokia.co.uk/gb-en/products/phone/lumia800/specifi...

It says it does 850 and 1900, which are T-Mobile bands, no?

t-mobile us 3G band needs 1700 mhz (I believe that's the receiving frequency). example: even an unlocked iphone supports 850 / 1900 / 2100 hsdpa/3G, but won't get more than "edge" speed due to the non-support of 1700 mhz

Ah, you're right. How confusing/annoying.

Having owned S40 and S60 I doubt that any Nokia phone would be easily jailbreakable.

Just type

$ sudo gainroot

on any Nokia Maemo/MeeGo device

Will it run on AT&T? A couple of my friends want that phone NOW.

yeah, should work fine on att 3g

Then there's that little voice in the back of my head saying "Cyanogenmod?"

http://twitpic.com/5siddh/full

It's funny how people now call Meego a great OS, but if Nokia had gone with Meego, everyone would be saying "where are the apps?" "This would be better with Android on it". "The same icon based UI sucks". And it probably wouldn't sell well.

This phone looks ugly compared to their leaked prototypes.

In nature the N9 is easily the best looking and feeling phone I've seen, including all iPhone models. It's not obvious from the pictures whether the case changed in any way from the N9 to the 800, but at least it doesn't look like anything major.

Here: see for yourself. http://www.nokia.co.uk/gb-en/products/phone/lumia800/

The 710 looks ok but the 800 is pretty nice imo.

Wow there's gonna be Nokia Windows Phones for 60 euros

No, I don't think so - that's for a phone in the Asha (non-WP7) range. Cheapest WP is the Lumia 710 at 270 Euros.

uh ok. I got confused as he mentioned the retail price between talking about marketing of WP7...

The Windows Phones start at 270 euros.

They are developing Meltemi for low-end range. They won't use WP7 for that.

thats the Symbian ones

S40 not Symbian

I'm so disappointed by the color choices, and the bevel on the screen (or what looks like a bevel). Don't people ever wonder why some of the most popular phones in history have been white/black/silver only?

I feel like consumer demand for mobile devices isn't driven by aesthetic choice, more so than apparent popularity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_mobile_pho...

The numerous amount of buttons on the side also makes me angry. Honestly, I have two buttons on the side of my iPhone, and a flip switch which makes perfect sense. Is it really necessary to have four different -unmarked- buttons?

</end_of_complaints>

Huh, the buttons are vol. up, vol down, power and camera(works even when in sleep/locked so that you can quickly take a picture unlike fiddling with the power and touchscreen on the iPhone). I don't see how that's numerous when they are all pretty useful.

How does it avoid lots of pocket/purse pictures?

No idea but I haven't seen one in six months of use.

I could be wrong, but I think that would be the proximity sensor at work.

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