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Comment by Confusion | Hacker News Reader

  It's the exact type of behavior I would expect 
  from a bank.

From an American bank. There is no German, Dutch or French bank that does that and I doubt Spanish, Italian or Swiss banks do it. Sure, if I overdraft, I pay (serious) interest over the amount overdrawn for as long as I am overdrawn, but you aren't hit with any fine at all.

In fact, I have arranged that I actually can't overdraft. Automatic bills just bounce when I'm underfunded. That's between me and the companies whose bills bounced.

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As an American who moved to the Netherlands, I can vouch for this. My fellow countrymen don't know what they're missing:

* There are no ATM fees levied by another bank's ATMs.

* There are no ATM fees levied by your bank for using another bank's ATMs.

* There are no fees or minimum transactions for using your debit card at a business.

* You are allowed to overdraft, you just pay an interest rate to the bank for the money you owe (mine is 10%, up to €2,500).

* There are no bounced check fees, because:

* There are no checks. Non-debit card transactions are done via online banking, are free, and usually instantaneous.

* All banks use 2-step authentication (phishing is nearly impossible).

I was confronted by the joke of US banking again recently when I had to mail someone in the US a check, which they lost, found 6 months later and cashed... generating an overdraft fee in my US account.

Totally unnecessary.

"There are no fees or minimum transactions for using your debit card at a business." isn't always true. For (small) business with not enough transactions, accepting debit cards is an expense, and below 10 euros they often charge 0.25. Nothing major though.

And the big downside to all of the above? Credit card acceptance is very very low. Tourists can only purchase train tickets by credit card at Schiphol Airport. Everywhere else the option is disabled due to fraud issues.

For (small) business with not enough transactions, accepting debit cards is an expense

Here in Ireland it's not uncommon for shops to insist on cash only for amounts less than €10 (except in some extrenuation circumstances (like the ATM in their shop being broken)).

Credit card acceptance is very very low.

That has definitly not been my experience. Perhaps you are thinking of chip-and-pin credit cards. Here in Ireland (& IME UK), credit cards are accepted in many, many point of sales/retailers. But they might only accept chip and pin credit cards, which I believe are uncommon the USA.

In the Netherlands very few stores accept credit cards, most accept just the dutch "PIN" and "Maestro" (=EMV). Not many people in the Netherlands have a credit card.

Vice-versa however, I was able to pay at WalMarts in the US with my Dutch debit card with no issues (once I hit the right button, it's confusing).

Most stores and restaurants acecpt VISA in Belgium, and our banking system works as described above.

About the charges, you're correct. I originally thought that this practice was a violation of the merchant's agreement... but I was wrong: http://www.pin.nl/en-US/Zakelijk/Pages/Veelgesteldevragen.as...

Still, it occurs infrequently.

About the credit card acceptance: Good! Most Dutch people have a healthy and rational fear of credit card debt, and the fact that you can't use your Visa to buy groceries encourages good consumer behavior.

Sad if you're a tourist, but easily solved by taking out some cash from the ATM which, on this side at least, is free! :)

Exactly this - the UK banks tried to move closer to their US cousins a number of times, but each time consumers managed to stop a lot of these charges becoming commonplace, particularly with regard to charges or ATM fees.

If you want a really convoluted banking system, try Japan. Its not that you get charged for using another bank's machine, you just can't, with the ned result being that you are always on the hunt for the convenience store that contains your banks machine. My bank also offers no automated payments, and entering payment details is a sea of impenetrable numbers.

Speaking of UK banks. I had the unfortunate privilege of having to use one. My salary wasn't posted on time but all the scheduled drafts went through. A few were rejected and not only did they hit me with the overdraft fee, they also hit me with an additional fee of mailing me a letter saying they were rejected. 3 of them to the tune of 20£ each.

I believe the UK consumer watchdog organization took them to court over this and I had some of it refunded. Later, they emailed me that due to this ruling they were raising monthly account fees for everyone.

It’s not the same everywhere, though. In Germany the fees for using another bank’s ATM are quite high. I think the average is something like 5€ or so.

As a European I still marvel at the craziness of American banks. I just graduated college this summer, working at a startup now, so cash is tight, have some student loans, yet I never overdraft cause I can't. If I could, I know the temptation would be too big. (Do have a credit card though, which essentially is an overdraft as the bill comes the 26th of each month, but is automatically paid in full).

Italian banks are terrible. Lots of fees, they don't pay interest at all, and the hours are ridiculous. Most stores are open from something like 8:30/9 - 12:30, then 15:30 to 19:30. With banks it's along the lines of 8:00 - 13:00, 15:00-16:00 or something odd like that. Ours raised the interest rates on us the day before we were supposed to sign the paperwork for our mortgage.

OK, the reason I doubted it is because it is very easy for anyone to open an account in a neighbouring country and profit from the better arrangements there. I know people living in Germany who haven't bothered to open a local account, because their Dutch account works just fine.

Not all of Europe is quite so 'small scale'. It'd take me a couple of hours to drive to Slovenia, and 3 for Austria.

Where I come from in Canada, people make day trips of over two hours and a half each way to go to the shopping mall... heck, my commuting was two hours each way in Montreal, every day.

But I do admit that if I were living in eg. Napoli, I wouldn't want to go to the Netherlands or wherever just to open a bank account.

They are an 8-hour drive from their bank

More generally: from an unregulated bank. The tradeoff that came out of the Great Depression was that the government insures bank deposits, and in exchange the banks agree to be bound by rules that enforce responsibility - both fiduciary and to their communities. Over the past 20 years, the American banks have succeeded in shedding many of the regulations that used to bind them to those terms of responsibility. Not only has that resulted in more cynical and opportunistic 'service' to customers, but also it has resulted in the financial instability that led to the big crash of 2008.

Don't forget the British banks, they seem as rotten as the Americans.

(I never thought I'd miss the German banks.)

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