Hacker News Reader

Comment by ghaff | Hacker News Reader

I'm a bit unsure about "the industry" here. It's probably true that whitewater paddlers, as the article suggests, tend to go with shorter paddles than are generally ideal for sea kayak touring. Generally speaking, longer shaft paddles have been available, but it may well be the case that a lot of people don't go with them because it doesn't feel natural based on how they learned to paddle.

(I agree with the basic point that, for sea kayaking, you mostly want to keep your hands fairly low and have a relatively long paddle. There's also a whole discussion around blade shapes but that's a topic for another day.)

ADDED: I did do a fair amount of sea kayaking instruction at one point and the inclination of a lot of students is definitely to hold their hands high and dig in whether because of previous whitewater kayaking, canoeing, fun-yaks, or other reasons.

View on HN

Whitewater paddles are a fundamentally different beast than flat water paddles. You’re not just using them to move forward, you’re using them to manipulate the boat in all three dimensions. So rigidity is key and leverage is key. Your paddle stroke in whitewater is basically straight up and down and intended for maximal power in multiple directions, not long-term energy efficiency as it is in touring.

Hi mate! I'm super interested in this topic.

Why is having a long paddle with fairly low hands beneficial for sea kayaking?

Do you have any resources you think are good quality that I could find somewhere?

Thanks!

In sea kayaking you're usually going longer distances, so being able to get into a steady efficient rhythm is important. Quick maneuverability is important, but it's not the highest priority. Wind also comes up a lot in sea kayaking, and being able to keep your paddle low is helpful.

Also unless something's gone horribly wrong you're less likely to need to push off the bottom or fit your oar between your kayak and nearby rocks.

I don't have any specific resources but it's really an energy and muscle group thing. When you paddle--and this is broadly true although maybe more specific to sea kayak touring than other things--you're not primarily using your arms. You're essentially keeping your hands in a fairly fixed location and rotating your upper body to supply the needed force. (Though this applies to canoeing as well.)

Some of the classic books by the likes of Nigel Foster are probably still applicable but I haven't looked at them in years.

Not a canoe expert, but I did guide in the BWCA for a summer in college. I've got about 1,000 miles in a canoe all told, almost entirely flat water.

I paddle with an upright stroke because for a canoe paddle, a pretty efficient stroke has your lower hand down quite close to the blade. If I were to wear a watch while paddling, it'd get wet. Your arms remain straight through the stroke, and the power comes from swinging your shoulders and upper back through the stroke. I find that paddling like this means I use a smaller paddle than I'd be normally given, so my experience squares with the article.

This is from a seat, and a bent shaft is widely regarded as more efficient, which feels consistent with my experience. I've not padded enough kneeling to have an opinion, though the conventional wisdom is that a straight shaft is preferable when kneeling. In any case, if you're J-stroking in the stern, it probably matters a lot less than if you're in the bow.

I've always paddled a kayak the same way, sea kayaks included. Does the power in the stroke you're describing come from twisting your trunk in the stroke or is it higher as I've described, or something else? If it's higher, how do you put those muscles to use with the lower stroke?

I can see that you likely save energy not lifting the ends of the paddle high in the air on each stroke, but I've never worked out or been taught a stroke that makes sense for a longer paddle and a flatter stroke.

Canoe and kayak strokes are different because kayak strokes alternate sides. The recovery of one kayak stroke is the same motion as the beginning of the next. Whereas a canoe stroke has a more linear progression of phases since there is one blade. Each forward stroke fully completes, and you reset before taking the next.

Power/endurance for kayak strokes comes from the lower core: the obliques and lower back muscles. The muscles you would use to twist from side to side about your spine. Imagine laying on your back with your legs sticking straight up; now keep both shoulder blades against the floor while you swing your legs from side to side. Those are the muscles for kayaking.

A smooth kayak stroke looks like the balance wheel in a mechanical wristwatch, smoothly swinging back and forth with no hitch or pause. The body doesn’t pitch forward or backward, just twists.

That's quite interesting as I learnt to kayak in rivers and indeed it never occurred to me to do anything different in the few times I've been sea kayaking...though in those cases I remember being frustrated about how long it took to get from point to point. Thanks.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com