Need Advice: Quitting Job to Learn to Code... (and start my business)

Sound like you are on the right track, and increasing your technical chops is definitely a good way to get to where you want to be or to at least give a better impression to potential future partners.

That said, sounds like from this line:

>I want to make sure if I do leave my job it's the right thing to do and that I don't spend months without an income and end up with nothing to show for it.

..that you are not ready to quit your job yet. It's a fairly high probability that this is exactly what will happen. If you aren't comfortable with that fact, then you don't have the risk tolerance necessary to go for this. At the least though, I can say that if you do go through with it, no matter the outcome, I highly doubt you will think you 'wasted your time'. If you look at the report-backs on HN of those who have failed, almost everyone has learned some skills and life lessons that made up for the experience.

Hmm... I guess I have to just think about what I meant by "nothing to show for it" to really think as to if I'll be okay leaving my job now and then looking back at what I accomplished. I think the way I worded it was too vague.

I realize I won't be raking in money or something. Hell, perhaps I won't even have my MVP close to implemented after those months. However, I'm completely content if I feel that I've made good progress in terms of my learning to code and being close to my goal of creating an MVP (which is really my main goal right now, learning to code being the path to that).

I guess I just want advice from you guys, as hackers, to someone who can just do HTML and CSS. Is it worthwhile to leave my job to learn code. Can I ever be proficient enough for a future tech co-founder or investor to care?

I guess if I learn enough to create MVP and gain traction, then that answers my question. Thanks for that reply, it helped me think that phrase through a little clearer. If I decide to leave, I'll have to keep my expectations on my accomplishments reasonable.

jaypreneur,

1) I wish you the best of luck. 2) As Buffett said, "Invest in what you know." 3) Hire the best you can afford to help you with the tech issues.

Regarding 3: You go and learn all you can, write some code, etc. The more you learn the more you will realize you are in over your head (I hope you learn that). Besides the security issues you have never heard of, or the scaling issues, or the caching issues, you are not a Developer!

To paraphrase Buffett, "Stick with what you know." If you have a good, marketable, revenue-generating idea then you are doing well. You can generate good ideas, that is great! Show your idea/attempt/mockup to potential tech co-founders. If the basics are sound any reasonable techie will see ways to improve it for you and take the bite.

I am sure that you did not mean to insult all of the techies out here by saying you can learn to code in a year a two, but there is much more to our craft than banging keys or struggling with memory leaks...we have experience that you will never have if you part-time half-ass it. Either become a "coder" full-time, or find someone that has. I am known to be a hard ass, so please forgive me, but you don't have to code the solution/vision yourself...in fact, please don't. Reading your post I see a lot of 'impossible' statements. jay, if you want your idea to move forward with realistic performance, hire someone. If you don't have the money, search for the money, if you can't do that, search for the talent. If you believe in your idea and can convince a techie to believe in your idea, well, your search is over. I am sure you have heard this before but "Ideas are a dime a dozen." It is true, even with mockups, but if you need a tech co-founder, I think you came to the right place.

Read 1) 2) 3) again.

FateCarver

Thanks for the reply! (as well as your other one, which I've responded to in the wrong order, ha)

I think my other reply regarding outsourcing vs doing it myself frames what you have said here perfectly.

Ultimately, I do not at all think I can learn to code in a few months or a year or even 2 (well, be as proficient as I want to be and should be anyway). I know for that a fact, just based upon myself researching and learning about all the different languages, frameworks, terminology, and so on. Even that tiny amount shows the immensity of what there is out there. To be proficient, it takes YEARS. I don't underestimate it all.

As a result, I do ultimately believe I have 2 choices: outsource or do it myself. I'm honestly leaning towards outsourcing at this point since if I need a technology guy regardless than why not get an MVP put together sooner (and better) by outsourcing?

I guess it plays off what you've quoted: "invest in what you know" and I don't know coding, so perhaps I should hire what I can afford and ultimately look for someone to join forces with myself once I've created an MVP and traction and have something to really show for myself.

I might not have the technical know-how to bring to the table, but I believe I have other valuable qualities and a great idea and vision.

Thanks for wishing me luck and I appreciate the advice.

Thank you for all the posts from everyone thus far! I really needed to have the conversation, get opinions, etc. It is so helpful.

- How many months of savings do you have?

- How much selling do you have to do to break even?

- How long do you have until you get that much selling?

That gives you the numbers.

Coding is not as easy as some make it sound (nor as hard as other make it sound). If you get the functionality working to a degree where customers are paying for it and sticking around, you probably can find a techie to revamp it.

Personally, I am sufficiently risk averse that for most products I've thought of, I'd have to see cash incoming before I quit my job.

Thanks for the questions. I will be asking myself those questions and analyzing the answers.

A question they bring up in my mind though would be the opportunity cost of creating it myself vs. outsourcing.

If I ultimately plan on finding a tech co-founder to come on board and revamp it, hopefully playing the part of CTO, then it seems wise to compare the costs of getting there via my own work vs. outsourcing, no?

DO IT MYSELF

Benefits

1. I learn skills that will help when doing simple iterations (before having tech partner on board), assessing future tech partner, and attracting tech partner.

2. I hate my job and would rather learn to code and build my business.

Costs

1. The time it takes to learn is time I can't be earning a salary. This could be up to 6 months or more. Let's say this costs me 30k.

OUTSOURCING

Benefits

1. I keep my salary (even though I hate my job) while MVP is created. This could be positive 30k+.

2. Outsourcing the MVP is likely far faster, let's say 2 months. This also means I can potentially get to customers faster and gain traction (maybe find partner faster as well)

Costs:

1. Of course, the outsourcing itself over those 2 months could very well be 250 hours of work. At 50 dollars an hour (reasonable?), that's 12.5k. Let's assume 10-15k range.

2. Unfortunately, I lose out in terms of learning, which helps in terms of iterating (before having tech partner) and finding and evaluating potential tech partner.

To me, it looks like outsourcing has the potential to save me in both time (a couple of months, at least) and money (15 - 20k). I guess I need to assess if learning to code myself extensively if worth that cost if I don't plan on really becoming incredibly proficient (as I recognize it takes years).

Any opinions on that analysis of the situation?

edit* I just wanted to mention I don't claim that my above analysis is accurate. It could very well take an entire year to develop a useable MVP myself, which would be 60k in opportunity cost. Additionally, the outsourcing estimate of 15k and 2 months could be 30k and 4 months, or more. I am not expert on the implementation and realize that. Please consider that and take the idea behind the analysis into consideration rather than the numbers themselves.

How old are you? Outsourcing? To where? Part of the problem is a "Tech Co-Founder" is already making $300k+ a year. If you want someone to throw a few hours your way, you need to sweeten the pot and step up the talk a bit. Some "Tech co-founders" would actually have to use their time spent on your idea as a write-off. jay, I'm not trying to smackdown on you but what do you have to offer your tech co-founder? Even if you learn to code, what can you offer? Will you need a Marketing VP too? Or legal advice? Or accounting help?

I'm 24.

In regards to "where" for outsourcing. That is something I have not looked into in detail, but potentially anywhere as long I received quality code.

But anyway, to your other question directed at me (and no need to think your trying to smackdown because I agree entirely with your sentiment), what do you offer...

The things I offer:

1. Vision - I know, to some this (like an idea) means very little

2. Design - I am competent with UI/UX, as well as designing using photoshop and illustrator.

3. Sales/Marketing - I can sell. I'm a good orator and I'm passionate and persuasive (or so I've been told and experienced). In regards to marketing, I've read and learned plenty about it and am always learning more, although I won't claim to be an expert.

4. Accounting/Business - I'm an accountant (well, auditor with CPA) so I do bring that to the table as well. Ultimately, along with accounting, I have a good deal of knowledge on finance and general business issues as well.

Now, perhaps I'm naive to think the above is enough to offer a potential future tech co-founder. However, it's what I've got and, above all, I am incredibly passionate and hardworking. I know that would matter a lot to me in choosing someone to work with (perhaps more so than raw talent/skills), so I can only hope the same can be said the other way around.

Anyway, you also bring up a good point about the problem about the "tech co-founder" in that they have far more opportunity (a good one anyway) than I might offer, so why me? It's the reason I have made this post and offer up the decision to code things myself or outsource. I know where I have a weakness, even if I learn to code, I still won't be as proficient as I need to be. So, I will need someone.

I guess my hope is that by actually creating something and having customers, that traction (along with the list of things I believe I have to offer) will entice a "tech co-founder" to come join up with me.

A CPA! Kudos. I know that is not easy, my fiancee just tested for her CPA...but I would hate to see the code she would write : ) This is way before your time, but Kenny Rogers had a lyric, "Got to know when to hold 'em, and know when to fold 'em" which can extrapolate to your perceived need to do everything. You can do everything, or anything, but where do you draw the line? Janitor? QA testing? Chief Bottle Washer? I'd "hold" on running the company, but "fold" on writing the code.

If you do decide to "outsource" do you mean offshore? Perhaps Rent-a-coder isn't a bad idea, but just make sure the coder(s) are available after they write the code, have them sign a non-compete, and possibly outsource a second coder to review the code if you are not getting the warm and fuzzies from the first team. Ask for well-documented code including an overview explanation, approach, architectural considerations, and lots of comments. Ask for their best work. Again, I wish you the best and I hope that once you get your prototype up you let us all know so we can kick the tires with you.

One last thing: Stop worrying about the tech co-founder and get this project in the bag! Heck, the more you type the less likely a Tech Co-founder is going to want to come on board! Get 'er done!

Thanks Fate. Good luck to your fiancee, I know it's tough. If she needs any advice on the exams, let me know.

You are right. I will just have to get it done. At this point, I'll go with outsourcing, which doesn't necessarily mean offshore, but it could. I want quality work. I will have to do my research about it but will look into sites like rent-a-coder, odesk, elance, etc. I'll approach it as you said, I appreciate the help.

I still will try to learn to code on a basic level to converse and not be entirely blind to what's going on, but I'm not sure if it's a good choice to try and program when it would take a significant time commitment. I'm not against a time commitment, but by saving that time, it frees me to focus on other areas of the business.

ANYWAY! I will stop with the typing.

It seems my choice is to stay with my job (although I might leave to find one that is less all-consuming of my time) and outsource the initial development. Obviously it would have been ideal if I already knew how to code or had a good friend who could code and wanted to join me. Unfortunately, neither is the case... and I'm not sure creating the MVP myself is the best proposition.

If someone thinks otherwise, let me know though. Perhaps I'm missing something here.

Lastly, any advice on outsourcing development would be appreciated. Thanks.

Just had this pop up on my reader: http://appicurious.com/2011/10/26/inglorious-applications/#....

Like another poster alluded to, save up some money (keep your job). Interview 5+ developers with entrepreneurial tendencies, pick one, thank the others, hire the one you picked, tier their compensation on milestones.

You already founded this, so looking for a co-founder is fairly moot. Hire someone, give them a chance to shine, bring them in as a partner. If trying to force the "tech co-founder" isn't working, try something else. As for outsourcing...I think it is a silly word that means "not committed". You're not committed to them, they are not committed to you...in the end you have your prototype, but know far less about it then if you hired someone, even an intern, and had them walk you through their process and the code...most outsourced help would probably not do that for you. A less risky move is to hire someone on 1099 for the project...you probably know more about those rules than most.

If you waste too much time fretting over the details, you'll never get it off the ground. Check your balls, take the leap. You will never be 100% correct (you damned accountant! : ) so take your best shot and learn what you are made of.

Post an email link or phone number in your about and I'll give you a call and a swift kick in the ass if you need it.

I appreciate the link. It's good to hear someone say that design is important. I've read similar sentiments here and there, but it's often touted that the code is far more important (especially here, understandably so). I think there definitely must be a balance and hopefully that means my talents are valuable.

Anyway, I appreciate the advice about hiring someone. I will have to consider a way to go about doing that, it's tough though... being that I cannot hire/pay someone for too much of an extended period of time. I just don't have that money.

However, it is definitely a better route than outsourcing for the reasons you mentioned. I guess I'll just have to see if I can find a way to make it happen, the intern example is a possibility.

I'll try not to waste too much time on the details and trying to be 100% correct (lol, you've got me with that one). I'll be making the leap, soon.

I have added my email to my "about me" so feel free to shoot me an email and give me a hard time if I'm not getting going!

Anyway, thanks again. I truly appreciate the feedback.

You, and I and most of HN, see this conundrum every time we want to start something. In your case, since you don't have the geek chops, you have the following choices:

1) Get lucky and find a TCF willing to work for equity. 2) 'Hire' a company/freelancer to build your MVP 3) Hire someone to grow with you and build your MVP 4) Do it yourself

My opinion is that if your product is actually worth all of this fuss then you have to put your money where your mouth is. I would keep the job, read more about development, save some money, and figure out how you are going to hire someone on a project basis (1099/freelancer)...there will come a time, MVP or not, that you will have to make that leap. Sure, today is not the day. Let's say you get your MVP created, its a hit, and then what? What about hosting it on EC2 or dedicated servers? What about some marketing? What about some legal reviews? What about incorporating (kinda need that to realistically spread equity to partners and investors)? If you did outsource the MVP how are you going to get your new dev team up to speed when you do hire...and what if it needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because the outsourced dev did not take scaling, security, or authorization into account? What about the other 10,000 things that are going to hit you?

You'll be fine. I see a lot of people that have the best of intentions that are not fiscally capable of starting a business. You at least have a job. Some of these stories of creating the next whiz-bang site with 10 Million users on the first day and only $1.57 in startup capital are definitely the exception and not the rule. If you compare yourself to that success, then you are being unfair on yourself and on your future team. All of this lean startup talk ticks me off because some times you do need some capital to make it happen. That is where outsourcing may help a bit, but what ask yourself if losing the knowledge of the code is worth it? Fate's word of the day: Conundrum.

jaypreneur's head must have exploded. : )

Nope. Fortunately, no explosion. :) I actually just had a late day at work so haven't gotten a chance to come back to this.

But in regards to your reply. It really sums everything perfectly and I can't thank you enough for your help. It has given me a lot to think about and figure out... and ultimately start accomplishing. I think the route of hiring someone to freelance and not just have it outsourced and part ways is a far better strategy. If they can guide me through what they are doing, why they are doing it, and even be there after completion as well... it'd be 100 times better than being left with a cheaper site but being a bit more blind to what's going on and when going forward.

Again, I can't thank you enough for your help.

to be totally blunt, it sounds like you're at about the stage of most of those people who post ads on craigslist that we all laugh at: "i've got a great idea, all i need is somebody to implement it"

don't kid yourself - implementation is everything, and implementing properly is harder than you will ever imagine. if you don't even know how to code, you are nowhere near at a stage to quit your job unless you have savings to keep you afloat for at least a year. 10-15k to create your startup for you in a month or two is not a reasonable estimate.

I appreciate the reply. Feel free to be blunt. I never claimed to be an expert. However, I don't think I'm nearly as naive as any craigslist poster you suggest. But feel free to laugh at me if you'd like.

However, I am not kidding myself. I understand implementation is important. Perhaps I shouldn't have thrown out random numbers like that, but if you could give me some more reasonable estimates? Although I know you don't know what I am trying to create so it'd be difficult for you to give me an accurate estimate I suppose...

you already know the answer. you just want us to give it to you in better sounding words.

we don't have crystal balls. fact of the matter is. if you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. go for it. calculate whats the most viable way and don't wast time .

by calculate i mean money wise. financials are scary but they have to be dealt with.

Ha. When I think about it... that is exactly what I want. It's just a tough decision. Even if I know I ultimately want to leave and pursue this full time, being that I've never done something like this before, it's nice to get some on it thoughts, whether reassuring or against what I'm thinking, just to help me.

Ultimately, what I have to lose is just potential income. My job is one that (especially in NYC) is in demand and I have the qualifications to get another job if things went south, so I'm not really afraid of being out of a job if I needed money.

To be honest, I really never want to go back to what I'm doing anyway. I don't know if anyone else feels like this at times, but every moment I slave away I think about how much I could be accomplishing if I could use my time how I wanted to use it. The job sucked before I had that nagging thought... now it becomes unbearable at times.