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Comment by jitl | Hacker News Reader

On the other hand, no one has released a VR system with mass market appeal. I have and enjoy a Valve Index, but it’s stayed in the box for more than a year because I can’t figure out a socially viable spot for it in my new house. Maybe Ive’s influence on this product will make a big difference.

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The Oculus quest 2 definitely has fit that bill. It has game console level sales. How truly useful and confirtable it is may be questionable, but it certainly supports a market.

But not game console level software sales. Xbox has 1) recurring revenue from online subscriptions 2) recurring GamePass revenue 3) a huge library of games and gamers who tend to buy many games often. Average software spend for Quest 2 is estimated at $125/user [1], which is a mere 2 games without DLC on Xbox. By contrast I'd be willing to bet software revenue/user for Xbox is well in the hundreds.

[1] https://arinsider.co/2021/08/02/how-many-quest-2s-sold-in-q2...

Quest games are also fairly cheap compared to console games as a whole, so they might be somewhat equivalent in overall software purchased. Also, a lot of people are still hopping on the Quest/VR train so I would expect that number to go up.

Are the users actually using it?

Nerd dads are famous for buying anything that might run an NES emulator, then not using it after it turns out their kids have better things to do than listen to square waves.

I bought an HTC vive pro + wireless + index Ctrl.

I did that to play around as I was playing with 3d programming and I'm a nerd.

And while friends and family know that and a few tried it out for a little bit and liked it, no one cares.

Which is fine but it is a gimmick.

I was hoping it would get more traction with real life training like how to use a lathe but nothing really came out or is in some internal companies.

>> On the other hand, no one has released a VR system with mass market appeal.

Quest 2 would like a word with you?

I have both Quest models. They were fun for about a week and now they just collect dust. I've forgotten I own them.

Part of my problem with Quest is the "ick" factor of knowing that FB is looking over my shoulder whenever I turn the thing on. Giving up your privacy seems to be the price of just about every cool technology nowadays, and it means the tech has to be absolutely spectacular to make me pay that privacy price. My Tesla is sufficiently spectacular. Quest is not.

Quest 2 has impressive sales figures – 8 million in 2021, which is a quarter of Apple Watch at 32 million the same year. But the market for Quest 2 is very much games – I don't see much application outside that area, nor have I heard of break-through must-have or games.

VR seems to have an insurmountable motion sickness problem. I tried the Quest with a dozen friends and half of them felt sick enough within minutes to never try it again.

You just need to start with the basics, take a break the moment you feel ill, and keep going. Within a few weeks most people are entirely used to it.

That may be, but you're going to need an extremely compelling use case for people to go through with that.

But…why?

Why would you persist with something that makes you sick even when the enthusiasts admit they use it once or twice a month?

Not sure who you’re speaking to but I use it several times a week.

Puking doesn't stop some people from drinking!

Unlike drinking, using a VR set won’t help you get laid.

Sorry, those people aren't enthusiasts. There are people that spend 8 hours a day in VR. Hell, there are a lot of people that fall asleep in VR.

Huh?

I only know one person who used bis VR set extensively like for 2-3 month and then falled back to play egoshooters.

'a lot of people' != Not market relevant

That's cool but try jumping in to Pavlov or VRChat on a Friday night and then tell me there isn't a thriving community. It's not mainstream but it definitely isn't dead.

And how many active people can you find there in comparison to all apple iphone owner?

You're trying to compare Apples to Oranges here, VR is still pretty early on in its development. Like Motorola DynaTAC[0] early. The iPhone of VR is probably still 2 decades out. We're still figuring out our UI metaphors and trying to reach a critical mass of competent users where it's possible to just "call" someone up in VR without first asking if they have a headset, asking if they know how X app works, figure out where to meet etc. It's like trying to get someone to email you in the early 90s.

Trying to compare this nascent technology to the iPhone is really disingenuous, there are probably a billion iPhone users worldwide. I'd struggle to count on one hand branded devices that have the same number of users.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_DynaTAC

Man, if it really was that amazing, you'd see it in the numbers. Facebook acquired Oculus in 2014. Its still a rounding error in terms of revenue in their annual reports.

Personally, I just felt it was gimmicky - try it once or twice for curiosity's sake, then forget about it.

Nothing on VR enthusiasts - I'm sure you have reasons to love it. But as a piece of tech, unless there are drastic improvements, I just don't see it gaining mass adoption.

There have been steady improvements but it is still very early on in the development of the technology. Michael Abrash gave a talk at OC6[0] that centered around the idea that we are currently somewhere around the 1980s level when compared to the development of the PC. This is very much the beginning of the next major platform, comparatively few people have these systems and fewer still use them for more than just fun or basic utility. There is a fledgling social scene but it is still very underground to the point where most people have never heard of it. I'll fully admit there's a long way to go before it really breaks out but it's not going away. I'm diving into it now because it feels like this is the next wave and I'd rather ride it than just wait for it to wash over me.

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YIGT13bdXw

What would you recommend as the best first step to introduce someone to VR? I have an Oculus Quest but always felt that the hardware was insufficient. Would you recommend upgrading to a newer Oculus? And what would be your "safest" recommendation for a first VR game/experience?

If you already have an Oculus Quest you should try hooking it up to your PC using Airlink or the link cable first. This allows you to use it with Steam VR or the desktop Oculus apps. As long as your PC can handle VR, you'll get better graphics and access to more VR titles. If you use Airlink you'll still have a completely wireless headset, a trick to reducing latency and avoiding problems with traffic spikes on your network is to get a wifi card for your PC and set it up as a hotspot so you can connect your Quest directly to the PC without going through the router.

Some good first time experiences for people are Space Pirate Trainer if they like shooters or I Expect You To Die if they're more of a puzzle game type and Beat Saber if they like rhythm games. These games don't involve thumbstick based movement so they probably won't make you feel sick. If you want something that's really chill and is just kind of pretty to look at and walk through then Walkabout Mini Golf is pretty good, it's not the most exciting game but it does have multiplayer and it's pretty relaxing to play a round and just admire the work they put into the courses.

I've heard that setting up a fan so it's blowing on you while you're playing VR is a good way to prevent motion sickness. I don't really get very motion sick though so I haven't had to try it.

Some very good games that will definitely make you motion sick are Pavlov and Bone Works. You will feel queasy after playing these for the first few times, have some Gravol on hand just in case.

For better screen quality you can either use a Quest 2 or the Valve Index, you'll be tethered to the PC with the Index though which for me is a deal breaker.

Thank you for that detailed response. I’m going to give this another shot

This might be especially true if they're prioritizing aesthetic concerns over performance: per OP, they axed the compute-heavy base station. Carmak talks about increasing frame rate and increasing depth calculation as mitigators against sickness. BTW I feel sick merely playing Quake 1 at arm's length from a small monitor.

https://www.techradar.com/news/oculus-might-have-a-fix-to-en...

https://www.lifewire.com/how-new-tech-could-prevent-vr-motio...

May I ask, what kind of experiences did they try on the device?

It seems well-accepted hypothesis that having artificial locomotion in VR can induce motion sickness (cases where the VR body moves but your own body doesn't), whereas with "sit", "stay still" or "walk around IRL" (and even "teleport around") scenarios are highly unlikely to cause it.

There is a still a lot of experiences left in the latter scenario, though it does exclude driving games (in particular if you don't see the cockpit) or first-person shooting-and-moving-around games.

And then the worst thing to do with newcomers is to put them down for a ride in a VR rollercoaster.

It's only insurmountable if you never try it again. There is a learning curve where some people feal quite sick at first and then slowly get used to it. You can mitigate this with "training wheels" settings in the experience like blinkers, cages, hiding the VR body, and alternate locomotion schemes like teleporting. Some people even swear by just setting up a fan to blow air on them while they're using VR.

I'm a bit sceptical of this comment.

I've probably shown mine to ~30 people and not a single one had motion sickness with any of the "safe" experiences, assuming the device is adjusted properly (IPD). If you stick them on a roller-coaster or a super laggy app as their first experience then yeah that's going to be a problem. But for safe experiences - I think there is a percentage of people who experience disorientation or nausea but it's certainly not half (maybe 10% or so).

I got nauseous after a few hours of Half Life Alyx. Until then my test was going smoothly. I would imagine most games where you can move freely would be fairly bad for me. I even took a Dramamine to try to play some more which worked but wasn’t something I’d want to do often

Half-life Alyx is pretty bad actually. Even I as a veteran get a tiny bit queasy with that occasionally - definitely wouldn't class it as one of my "safe" experiences. But even then "after a few hours" is pretty long really. Most people wouldn't stay in VR that long anyway.

Native Quest games are the best as they are entirely on-device with no latency anywhere.

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