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The reason I think long and hard before signing up for new web services isn't even the cost 99% of the time, but the uncertainty in how difficult it is going to be to cancel should I decide I do not want to continue.

I've had it UP TO HERE with services that allow me to subscribe with one click and then make me go through a half-day long ordeal of phone calls to outsourced customer service people (who earn bonuses based on convincing you not to leave the service) in order to cancel.

Making it obvious that I can leave at any time just as easily as I joined is a huge greasing agent for getting me to actually put down money to try your service. It is a shame so few sites/services do this and most go with the short-sighted trap-em-in model which hurts the industry as a whole (since it makes people like me far less likely to use any non-essential services just to avoid the potential of a cancellation PITA).

Cancelling a recurring service is generally no more difficult than saying, "please cancel my subscription quick so I don't have to charge this back."

IME what you said is true, but only once you're talking to the manager of the manager of the person you originally waited on hold 25 minutes to talk to. And this is your second call because the first one got dropped randomly after 20 minutes on hold.

Companies will find ways to delay you as long possible: http://i.imgur.com/G0qlu.jpg

Except when forced to by law. Illinois doesn't allow Microsoft to do that and Illinois residents can cancel with one click.

Not exactly the case - documented the struggles for canceling Clear at: http://wp.me/p1CQDI-3i

My thoughts exactly. $1-$20 a month might not be much, but if I sign-up to something and it takes me half a day of jumping through hoops such as making phone calls then it ends up costing me a lot more than that, not just based on time (and how much I think my time is worth), but also in raising my stress/frustrating levels.

Let me know and can click 'cancel' anytime, no strings, no hassle and you'll probably get me on impulse purchase. Don't : Good luck getting my money.

It's gotten better, but I used to call up my bank and ask for a new debit card once or twice per year rather than having to deal with the hell of canceling various services.

It was fun to that the same companies who made cancel-ling impossible would call me up to tell me that billing had failed.

I use a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_payment_number for things like this. I can set a specific credit limit, or just stop the number at any time.

Do they ever send you to collections? I hear that's an even worse nightmare.

Bill collectors really aren't that bad if you know how to deal with them. I got sent to one once for a service I had canceled three times. The collector sent me a letter in the mail and then started calling every day at around 8 or 9 am.

I sent all of the calls to voicemail and I sent a letter to the collector (via certified mail with delivery receipt) that said "RE: account number XYZ; this bill is erroneous, do not contact me again." I haven't heard from them since.

Mine was the opposite experience. It wasn't really the same situation as yours, so maybe this is totally irrelevant. But here's my story, just incase.

My health insurance denied my coverage for a Dr's appointment ("pre existing condition") a month or two after the appointment. I had moved by then, and apparently the mail didn't get forwarded or something. The dr's eventually turned me over to some California collection agency who then wrote letters to the same address, with the same result. They did leave an incoherent, mumbling voicemail once, which sounded like a telemarketer (hence I ignored it).

To my eternal horror, my credit score dropped from 762 to 630 in June. Over 130 points, over an $80 bill. This means I went from "higher score than 86% of Americans" to "higher than 24%".

It has utterly destroyed me. I have no credit anymore. I've been too scared to even apply for another credit card (I only have one), even though "you're supposed to every N years", for fear it would drop my score even further. I have a wife, and our credit prospects went from "could not be better" to "completely, utterly screwed. Good luck if your car dies. Also, good luck getting any kind of AT&T service, Internet service, etc etc when you move again."

They showed no remorse at my situation. The lady assigned to my case even directly hung up on me when I expressed annoyance about her not attempting to contact me more... Thoroughly... Before she decided to ruin my family's financial life. I immediately called back, which rang and rang until reaching her voicemail. I contacted her manager, who said that the lady assigned to me was the final authority on my case, and had not acted inappropriately by hanging up. Nor did they care that the mail hadn't reached me. The worst part was, I had the money the whole time. I would have paid.

Don't take bill collectors lightly. They'll break your family's financial knees over $80, as they did mine. (Edit, clarification: they will report your bill as "seriously past due 90 days / account in bad standing" or some such, which will destroy your score at all 3 of the credit bureaus; hence, the whole system will break your family's financial legs.)

Ouch - I would contact each of the credit bureaus and ask them to remove the claim. It was purely a communications error because, as you said, you're willing and able to pay the bill.

(I'm not sure who the "they" is, hopefully not the credit bureau :(

It... doesn't work like that. I wish it did. They literally do not care that it was a communications error. Under law, they sent the letters they were supposed to, and called me at least once. That's as far as their mercy extends.

It seems unlikely that the credit bureaus would listen to me over Cal Coast Credit (the collectors).

If you write the letters, and keep sending them, eventually they will fall off of your credit report. Once you ask a credit reporting agency to remove something, they have to contact the original creditor who then has a set period of time to respond, or the listing is removed.

Interesting.. Thank you. Would you mind pointing out where to get further info? What if they respond in time?

The phrases you're looking to google are: [credit report validation]

[codename47 site:fatwallet.com]

Also check out these: http://www.bargaineering.com/articles/how-to-fight-debt-coll... (note that this site is now owned by Quinstreet so caveat emptor) and http://www.creditboards.com

Thank you so very much!

I second creditboards.com. It can be difficult and demoralizing to find what you need on there, but it's worth it. I've got several collections removed from my own report, and I'll help anybody who asks.

Since you're dealing with a small valid debt -- the first thing to try is the Right Thing. Call the Dr's Office -- not the collections agency -- offer to pay if they will take the bill back from the collections agency. Whether they can do that depends on their arrangement, but for a small Dr's office they probably can. After that, you may need to contact the credit bureau's again, but it should go much better.

If that doesn't work, then you need a VALID complaint for the bureau's. Any discrepancy between the truth and what's on your report is worth trying. If the date is wrong, or the name of the company, anything. Keep trying.

This last part is my opinion, but I don't think you should EVER pay to the collections agency. They will not remove things from your report because you paid. If you ask, then they know they have you over a barrel, and will try to get more money out of you. Pay the original company.

EDIT: Another great weapon is local state law. Collection agencies have to abide by the law of their state, and the law of your state. I'm in Texas -- our laws are very strict on collectors. Your agency is in California -- I believe their laws are strict too.

Thank you too! How long did it take you to get your report fixed?

I haven't paid the collectors.. I've been so disgusted with the situation and their behavior.

Again, thank you so much for your time.

I had 15 or so collections (misspent youth, what can I say), it took me a year of off-and-on effort to clear them out. I had a very boring high-paying job, so I could take the time to do it right, and could afford to send out registered letters all the time.

FWIW there are companies that specialize in 'fixing' your credit, and resources on the web for same. With some work you can usually clean up a bad credit score over time.

excuse my ignorance, but what's a credit score and why does it matter? I can see it's a Bad Thing to have a low one, but in what way does it impact someone?

A credit score is maintained by a credit bureau, so potential lenders can check up on how "good" a potential borrower is before making a deal. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Credit_score So having a low one makes it difficult and expensive to get a loan or any kind of credit.

That's correct, but it's not quite that simple.

If my car dies, I won't be able to get anywhere, because I can't get a loan for a new one.

When we move to a new apartment, they won't allow us to have Internet service. I am not exaggerating in the slightest. AT&T U-Verse already denied me once in the past, before I got my score to 760 --- they refused me service. Completely. No alternatives. It didn't matter to them whether I had $10, $1,000, or $10,000 in the bank. The computer told them "unknown risk", and so they would not do business with me. There were no alternative internet providers. I would have been completely screwed, but my wife (who was my fiancée at the time, thankfully; credit score of one person will reflect on both of you after marriage) was approved.

We will not be able to get a house, if we choose to. We might not even be able to live in a specific area we want --- apartment complexes check your credit before allowing you to live there.

All over $80, due to the messed up health insurance system. Blergh.

and you've got no recourse? sheeesh! what a screwed up system

I sincerely hope you're able to get things sorted. Thanks for the explanation

I'm sorry, as this is rather off-topic, but are you by any chance unfamiliar with credit scores because they don't exist in Australia? If so, how do lending institutions gauge your credit-worthiness, and how do you set expectations about the same? I am just curious how this works outside of the US.

This is going to sound terribly naive, but I don't know what we have here in Aus. I've got a mortgage, car loan and credit card, but the process for getting them was relatively mundane. I know if you sign up for a phone plan they do a "credit check" but I don't know what it involves. I assume we have something, but I've never had cause to think about it before

I wish I could be terribly naive too... =) Aus sounds amazing!

non-US perspective:

In the Netherlands we have the "Burea of Credit Registration" which registers most debts, storing:

    - amount
    - start date
    - expected end date
    - actual end date
    - type of credit
    - miscellaneous notes

If payments are missed or other difficulties develop the lender can contact the Bureau, which notes this information on file. This information is stored for up to 5 years after final payment.

Note that this only tracks loans to individuals with a duration longer than 3 months and over a certain minimum amount.

The basic idea is that everyone who has not failed to repay a loan is considered creditworthy, actual loans are based on the above info, income (plus certainty of employment) and collateral.

Thanks, that sounds basically the same as the credit reporting agencies here in the US (except maybe the thing you're talking about is government-run?)

Well, my impression was that in the US you need to establish some kind of credit history to get a good credit score. Whereas here it is normal for people with no credit history to get loans and mortgages.

I know a guy, who was at a conference, and was told by a guy in banking that one of the credit scoring techniques for credit card applications was checking if the first and last letters of your family name are vowels.

The idea being that Nigerians usually have vowels on both ends of their family names.

Credit score or credit history is the way the US build trust in you as a customer.

Other places, like in Denmark for instance you are by default considered a trust-worthy customer and only if you start not paying your bills does it affect your ability to get a loan etc.

Another approach to take - there are lawyers/groups that specialize in getting these things removed. It will probably cost anywhere from $500-$1000 but they will harass every party involved until someone slips up and the bureaus are forced to remove the claim by law.

Depending on your situation it may be less expensive than what you would pay for a high-rate auto or home loan, etc.

I don't work for or know anyone that specializes in this but had a friend get 4 different claims removed over the course of a year this way.

We had very similar experience with medical bill (insurance didn't pay, we moved, years later found unpaid bill on our credit report).

Collector offered to pay and clean up the records.

After going through some doubts (what if collector lie about clean up?) we did pay and within weeks credit score returned back.

Never. The kind of companies who are automatically billing are attempting to charge in advance for monthly services without a long-term contract, as opposed to billing in arears, so as far as I know I don't owe them the money and they can cancel my account clearly.

George - that is really incredible feedback. thank you for that comment.

Although I am against most regulation I would strongly support a law that required unsubscribe/cancelations to be processed in the same manner as subscriptions. If I can subscribe/expand my service online I should be able to cancel online as well.

They have this in Illinois for online gaming subscriptions but of course when companies like Microsoft comply, they limit it to only that state: http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/publicacts/fulltext.asp?Name...

Ironic then that Netflix is one of the best companies at letting you change / pause / cancel your service in just seconds.

Tivo, on the other hand, will make you cry before they let you cancel their service. Can't do it online, and it's a minimum of 20 minute phone call. I've had to do it twice over the years and it makes me really reluctant to turn on Tivo ever again.

this is very interesting to me; I thought that the ultimate in this would be to give you control over billing, so I don't do pull billing at all- I send you a bill and you pay it or you don't. (alternately, we can setup a paypal recurring payment for you, but you also can cancel that without telling me.)

But, all I hear about this model from my customers is complaints. It's a pain in the ass for them to pay every month, or they hate paypal, can't they just give me a credit card, etc...

It's possible that most people feel the way you do and those people just sign up and don't say anything... but I dono.

"less than a morning Starbucks trip"

I wouldn't think that a comparison like that would work.

For one thing there are many people who feel they are pissing away money on Starbucks, or feel some guilt (I myself spend about $4.00 per day and sometimes twice that. That's at least $1500 per year. I don't want to be reminded of that, especially when business is off.)

(So you are making a comparison to a potential sore spot. You want a positive association. Comparing to Starbucks but without mentioning price might be an example but that wouldn't make sense for your product, right?)

Now, to sell it's product, Starbucks (or any premium brand) doesn't make comparisons to what other things costs. They make you feel special in some way by the product or by the experience or create some value that justifies the price.

Making comparisons is good though if you are saving people money.

Have you tried raising the price and offering an unconditional money back guarantee?

"Cancel at any time and owe nothing".

That seems to work with many things I've seen that cause people to be fence sitters as long as the price is high enough.

Seo book does that (p1 for seo and search engine optimization)

http://www.seobook.com/

Your web apps don't release dopamine into my bloodstream. Your iPhone game doesn't give me a headache if I don't play it. I can't take a girl on a date to your eBook PDF.

The reason that digital goods _seem_ more expensive is because the result we get _is_ less valuable to us as human beings. It's hard to pay money for things that leave you exactly as you were before - sitting in a chair, looking at a screen.

Since when is how much we get from something tied to how it impacts us? Watching a movie doesn't change us physically, but we pay $12 for it because it entertains us, just the same as most digital goods. I don't pay $20 for a book because I want a stack of paper, either.

If that was true, you'd get paid to smoke and eat fast food, since they have a negative impact.

Yeah but if you bought my productivity app, you may have more time for your date.

Or you may have less headaches from your finances.

It's the nickel and diming of modern services. Every service is just a buck, just a fiver, just a tenner. I used to get usenet with my ISP, now I pay for it. I used to get luggage for free with my flight, now I don't.

We've literally turned pricing around: even $1.99 seem like too much for an iphone game... when you realize that too many $1.99s will turn into $20 or more dollars.

But I agree, money for services online feels very different from money for product, whether a good deal or not.

So let's say you get a Crunch bar. You unwrap it and take a bite. It fills your mouth, and you taste chocolatey goodness. You chew on a little. Crunch, crunch. Your mind drifts off a bit and you swallow a mouthful before going to take another bite. This is exactly the kind of direct, physiological pleasure $1 can get you, and it's something we've enjoyed for billions of years, and spent all that time evolving new strategies to achieve.

You know what doesn't have trouble selling online? Sex. Anything from escorts to live cam shows to porn. Why? Because that's another direct, physiological pleasure we've had for billions of years.

Now tell me, what kind of web services compete with eating and fucking in terms of what people really want?

"So many great things on the web cost less than a single cup of Starbucks. Yet, I myself am so hesitant to pay for them."

It's the same thing where if you add up all the things you are supposed to do each day that only take 5 - 10 minutes, you end up with like three hours worth of stuff. Flossing, meditating, abs, showering, etc.

I think it was the SmugMug guys who discovered that they had higher conversion rates at $12/year than $10/year, because people found it easy to think of as $1 / month. Response to pricing on virtual services can be tricky.

It might have been Funny Or Die

This says things about the prices at Starbucks as much as it says things about the web. :)

Also, with food, even if it is terrible you can still eat it. It's a no/little risk investment.

even if it is terrible you can still eat it

I see you've never been to Friendly's.