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Comment by lapcat | Hacker News Reader

DuckDuckGo feels like just a front for Microsoft at this point. I once looked into buying search ads on DuckDuckGo, only to discover to my horror that DDG didn't have its own ad business. DDG is entirely reliant on Microsoft's advertising system. You have to sign up for a Microsoft account to even put ads on DDG! And it's difficult — maybe impossible IIRC? — to specifically target DDG in those ads, without also targeting other MS properties.

Until DuckDuckGo separates itself from Microsoft and becomes truly independent, especially in its business model, you have to question why DDG even exists.

DDG was founded 14 years ago. I can understand initially bootstrapping on MS ads, but what's the excuse now? How about separating yourself from Microsoft first, before making a web browser that gives special exemptions to Microsoft?

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I totally agree. It seems DDG exists at Microsoft's leisure and has little leverage in the relationship. In addition to serving Microsoft ads and this new special arrangement to allow Microsoft tracking, they also serve almost exclusively Bing search results. It seems like they're all but a subsidiary at this point.

As a consumer if you're happy with DDG's results this may not be relevant, but it doesn't seem like a great long-term strategy for DDG.

I consider DDG a no-bullshit less-creepy and infinitely less pushy and needy “skin” over Bing (and maybe some others) search results.

In my opinion you have:

- Google: best search results but you’re profiled to death - Bing: okay-ish search results and you’re profiled to death - DDG: okay-ish search results and you’re barely or not tracked at all

Easy choice for me.

There are other choices with the best of both worlds like you.com Especially good for developers via code.you.com

(founder here)

I've been surprisingly pleased with Kagi, a paid search engine in private beta right now. I believe they also use bing results was well as their own indexes. I've found the search results to be on par with Google and no longer feel the "well maybe google would find something this missed" anxiety from trying previous search engines. That being said, I've not given DDG a fair try but I appreciate the paid service model of Kagi. I do miss the shopping results on Google but that's really the only search use case I go back for.

> Until DuckDuckGo separates itself from Microsoft and becomes truly independent, especially in its business model, you have to question why DDG even exists.

DDG exists to make money for itself. It doesn't exist to protect your privacy.

From google to github to mozilla to everything, you would think the tech idealism would have died already. People working in tech, especially the elite, are some of the slimiest and greediest people on earth. Where money goes, so go the greedy slimeballs. It's pretty much a law of nature.

> DDG exists to make money for itself. It doesn't exist to protect your privacy.

I don't think these are mutually exclusive. It all depends on how you make your money.

I would love to advertise on a search engine that's independent of Google and Microsoft. Unfortunately, DuckDuckGo is not it.

> you have to question why DDG even exists.

Its been useful for me for 14 years so idk about that.

Yes. It's quite known for years and very unsurprising to be honest. [0] [1] [2]

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30703172

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27399017

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25839873

> very unsurprising to be honest

How is it unsurprising? Where on https://duckduckgo.com/ or https://duckduckgo.com/about do they mention Microsoft or Bing?

In fact they go out of their way to mention Google without ever mentioning Microsoft:

"Is DuckDuckGo owned by Google? No, we are not and have never been owned by Google. We have been an independent company since our founding in 2008 and, unlike some other search engines, we don’t rely on Google’s results for any of our search results."

> How is it unsurprising? Where on https://duckduckgo.com/ or https://duckduckgo.com/about do they mention Microsoft or Bing?

It is unsurprising. They have openly admitted it here [0], no hiding that fact. From [0]:

   We also of course have more traditional links in the search results, which we also source from multiple partners, though most commonly from Bing (and none from Google).

[0] https://help.duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/results/so...

I'm not claiming there's a cover-up. And I'm not claiming that this fact isn't known by some people.

What I'm claiming is that the general public, including people who use DDG as their default search engine, are generally unaware of this relationship. And also that DDG doesn't go out of its way to highlight this relationship, even though they do acknowledge it in relatively obscure places.

The main help pages, under the big heading "Sources", is hardly obscure...

If you're moving to DDG, it's most likely for privacy-related reasons. If that is the case, would you not do the absolute minimum due diligence by reading some of their main explanatory pages (e.g. where sources are from, how ads work, etc.)?

I find it difficult to take someone seriously when they are complaining about a niche privacy-focused search engine, but don't seem to actually take their privacy seriously. The first step that should be done when using a new service/product, if you care about privacy, is to read the privacy policy and related documentation.

Please read and follow the HN guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Which part of my comment do you believe doesn't follow the guidelines?

Because naked truth is bad for their business.

And yet it is a 100 times better than what Google is doing.

> you have to question why DDG even exists.

Because Microsoft's reputation is lower than dirt and that's probably a big part of the reason why so many people mock Bing and refuse to even try it.

Maybe Bing's reputation would be better if its privacy practices were even up to par with Google. Bing gives you a deceptive toggle on the search history page that hides new searches from that page, but they still get logged to your Microsoft account and it can't be turned off (best you can do is periodically clear it). So even if just in that narrow sense, DDG has a reason to exist in that it lets you use Bing search in a manner at least as private as Google with Web & App Activity disabled.

I think most people who ridicule Bing have never used it enough to know any of that. They used it maybe once or twice, found the results subpar and took that as confirmation of what they were already inclined to believe: 'Another shitty product from Microsoft.'

This reply seems completely unrelated to the post its replying to, you're imagining someone who doesn't use Bing saying inaccurate things about Bing, OP is talking about using Bing and how a entry-level privacy feature is completely misleading and unable to be corrected.

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