Logitech MX Mechanical Keyboard | Hacker News Reader

Logitech MX Mechanical Keyboard

logitech.com

305 pointsdavidbarker554 comments

This looks like a non-hotswappable board with proprietary switches, and it's still tied to Logitech's wireless dongles (which are notoriously bad about both causing and being super-sensitive to 2.4Ghz-spectrum interference).

I mean, I _think_ the switches are proprietary -- the page has no real information about the switches at all, which is a bit like selling a computer by showing you a picture of the case and telling you it has "a CPU".

Hotswappable switch sockets are basically a standard feature in the mechanical keyboard scene these days, with boards that sell for as low as $50-$60 having hotswappable sockets.

I don't get who this product is for, other than maybe someone who has heard mechanical keyboards are cool but is daunted by doing any research into what mechanical keyboard options exist out there.

Enthusiasts will see the non-standard switches and lack of hotswap, and the fact that it's Logitech, honestly, and will bounce off.

Non-enthusiasts will see that this Logitech keyboard is $150, but doesn't offer all that much more than their cheaper wireless multi-device keyboards, and will just buy a cheaper non-mech option.

At $150, it's priced above most budget boards (the sort you'd see on /r/budgetkeebs, which is more my wheelhouse anyways), but with none of the selling points of the boards in that range -- and it's getting into the low end of "standard"/"pricier" boards, but again, it can't compete with boards in the $60 range....so why bother?

*EDIT*: I'm seeing a lot of folks responding to this and saying "look, this is exactly what I'm looking for", so...I stand corrected. The above are my own opinions (and as a little bit of a hyper-frugalist sometimes, I'd still recommend shopping around on prices), but they're just that: my opinions. Don't let me make you feel like you're stupid or wrong to like what you like just because it's not what _I_ like! If this is your jam, then I'm stoked for you, and congrats on possibly finding the exact thing you're looking for!

> I don't get who this product is for, other than maybe someone who has heard mechanical keyboards are cool but is daunted by doing any research into what mechanical keyboard options exist out there.

Me, or anybody who needs a no-fuss, one-shot, buy-and-use-it-till-it-dies type of consumer.

I don't care about changing switches. I don't care about DIY. While I'm perfectly capable, I don't want to spend time on that. I want something works well, and equipped with a well known 2.4GHz receiver which can work with any OS, incl. firmware updates.

I need to do my daily work with it. Not fiddle with keys, caps, boards, firmware and soldering iron.

I'll be seriously considering this. If it's adequately close to MX Browns, I'll get one.

how dare you have simple yet unrefined tastes! how DARE YOU

I'd rather tend my fountain pen collection in that time instead.

Sorry for being so crude and tasteless.

I'm also a mechanical keyboard aficionado and I always write with a fountain pen. It's probably not an uncommon correlation of interest, all things considered.

It's a common joke on r/fountainpens. I think there's a subreddit covering fountain pens, mechanical keyboards and, if my memory serves me, headphones.

That's something I like, a lot: https://preview.redd.it/occvkly0cd471.png?auto=webp&s=1427cf...

Luckily I'm well over the acquisition phase. I'm very happy with the pens I have and I basically rotate 5-7 pens, having 2 inked at most.

https://www.reddit.com/r/mechanicalheadpens/

We probably can add automatic watches and fancy cameras & lenses to that list. Katana swords even..

> which can work with any OS, incl. firmware updates.

Keyboard that needs firmware updates? Yuck. It’s an input device. I’ll stick with my 12 year old WASD Code and Model M thank you very much.

/end boomer

No. Logitech sometimes push firmware updates for their receivers for security reasons.

While my G700 is also capable of firmware updates, they didn't push anything to it since I bought it a decade ago.

Yeah, security updates for my keyboard is not a selling feature.

Literally any keyboard running over USB has software. They’re not as simple devices as people think.

it is not for the keyboard.. it is for the wireless interface that it uses to connected to the computer and the dongle..

the unifying dongle had some security problems detected in the past that required firmware updates to fix..

The Logitech unifying receiver is FUBAR and no firmware updates will remedy that.

That's a pretty strong opinion on something so widely deployed and can work without any problems in a place which is very polluted with radio traffic and jamming in some frequencies.

I had a Microsoft Bluetooth mouse which constantly lost connection where I live. No Logitech receiver even skipped in that place.

You say it is an opinion but Logitech did abandon the receiver because they could not fix the security and instead released the Logitech Bolt with encrypted communication between peripherals, in order to not lose more corporate customers due to crappy security.

If my mind is not playing games with me, Unifying is around 10 years old at this point. It might be inadequate in today’s world, but it had a pretty good run for something like that.

They may had to make breaking changes to it at some point, but it’s already old technology, so moving to bolt doesn’t make Logitech an incompetent company in my eyes.

i guess this is why new products are using the Bolt receiver instead, that they claim is not compatible with the older Unifying receiver..

On the other hand, if the Bolt is any better then the Unifying only time will tell, but i do not have my hope up..

"What's that? I couldn't hear you over my keyboard clacking!"

I bought a mechanical keyboard with clicky blue switches and brought it to work at my open office company.

Very quickly my coworkers encouraged me to buy one with silent clear switches.

I now own two.

The clicky one stays at home.

> open office company

They were so close to getting it, too.

I chose to WFH over RTO because I really like using my mechanical keyboard.

I want a mechanical keyboard that's as quiet as possible. I assume you did research to find the best options. Would you have any resources available?

Quiet as possible: Reds (any company, I prefer Cherry).

Quiet enough that your coworkers won't hear it, yet very comfortable to type on for those new to mechanical keyboards: Browns.

Reds + orings, or brown + orings. A lot of the sound comes from someone bottoming out the keys.

I seriously discourage the use of orings. Rather, new users should practice _not_ bottoming out, which is why I recommend Browns for new users.

What’s the reasoning against o-rings?

Orings reduce the total travel, probably by about 6-8mm judging by their thickness though I've not measured it. Traditional Cherries would register at about 25mm and bottom out at about 40mm. So the user would have to train to depress to at least 30 but no more than 35 mm depth. That takes practice, and practice requires making mistakes. The orings bring the bottom of the stroke up into the range where the user needs to practice releasing the key on his own. If you're bottoming out on a mechanical keyboard, you are negating the real benefit of the device.

I've not used the low-profile switches, but I believe that they activate at around 12mm and also bottom out at a lesser depth though I don't know where.

This is why I highly recommend browns (any manufacturer) for new mechanical keyboard users. It is much easier to train on the tactile browns. You could do it with blues as well, but blues are just too noisy for office work, and gamers say that they have too long a reset stroke to be good for gaming. Once the user gets used to not bottoming out on browns, moving to a Cherry red keyboard is absolutely amazing. Typing on reds feels like floating on a cloud, it becomes an enjoyable experience in its own right, once you learn to effortlessly not bottom out.

This seems an awful lot like you demanding users have a particular skill you want them to have for $reasons. This is silly, use orings.

If the user is bottoming out on orings, then he might as well use a rubber dome keyboard. There is almost no benefit to using a mechanical keyboard if the user is bottoming out.

There are some terrific rubber dome keyboards. I actually use one occasionally as I like to rotate my equipment, to fend off the R in RSI.

Silent linear switches are the quietest. If that's not an option, then linear switches with o-rings.

Also you frequently get quite a lot of noise from the stabilizers on the large keys. Your only real option there is to lube them, but that's not really feasible on most off the shelf keyboards.

I did not do tons of research but I ended up with Cherry MX Clears.

Typing this from my WASD Code Keyboard, that I love - am on my third (mostly coffee spills, not mechanical failure)...

... you do realize that these guys have firmware updates, too?

https://support.wasdkeyboards.com/hc/en-us/articles/36001851...

I kind of would have expected a $175 keyboard to survive a coffee spill. It doesn't really happen anymore, but as a kid I must have spilled soda on my no-name keyboards once a month, with no ill effects.

One benefit of membrane keyboards is that the membrane would prevent liquids from reaching down into the sensor components.

That being said, I've resurrected my WASD Code keyboard a few times from coffee and water spills. It can be taken apart and cleaned with rubbing alcohol, left to dry, and reassembled pretty easily. I usually do this anyway every 18-24 months at this point for sanitary reasons.

It looks like it uses Cherry's low-profile switches, so if you're looking for switch reviews, there's your keyword.

Thanks, will keep that in mind.

Small correction to myself, but they're Kailh Chocs with an MX-compatible stem: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/logitech-mx-mechanical-...

But, they should be vaguely similar in feel. If you're looking for something clicky, the Kailh low-pro switches may be a better choice, since they developed their clickbar for the 'tactile event'. IMO, the clickbar switches are better than click jacket/etc for clicky switches.

Either way, you could order some loose switches as a sample before committing to one or the other. I'd not bother with the tactile (non-clicky) one, but that's just my own opinion.

Not according to that page. Under specs, they have several flavors of “ Graphite MX Mechanical” switches.

The page says nothing about which make/model switches are used. Tactile/clicky/linear can be said about any switch manufacturer's offerings.

On that page, under "Specs & Details", the explicit models and part numbers are listed.

    Graphite MX Mechanical Tactile Quiet: 920-010547
    Graphite MX Mechanical Linear: 920-010548
    Graphite MX Mechanical Clicky: 920-010549
    Graphite MX Mechanical Mini Tactile Quiet: 920-010550
    Graphite MX Mechanical Mini Linear: 920-010551
    Graphite MX Mechanical Mini Clicky: 920-010552

Logitech makes its own switches (or at least claims to), so this is what we have.

i think Logitech started with Cherry switches in their early mechanical keyboards and later they switched to their own switches, some are based on Cherry MXs and some are not..

From the name and some images my guess is that this ones are based on or at least compatible with the Cherry MX\MX Low profile switches..

But Logitech has the (bad) habit of mixing different models of switches in the same keyboard model.. I have two G512 here..

The first one, a tactile silent, use Romer-G switches, those are made by Logitech itself, not sure if anyone else use those.. they have their own Keycaps, not compatible with anything else AFAIK..

The other one, a tactile clicky, it uses GX Blue switches (their version of the Cherry MX Blue) that is compatbile with Cheery MX keycaps..

My guess would be that those Graphite MX are likely like their previous GX switches.. based on Cherry but manufactured by Logitech or some by some contractor on their behalf.. not much information out there about those yet..

While they have made their own switches in the past, these look exactly like premade switches. I don't feel that the model numbers serve to help identify the actual switch.

I can't tell between Choc V2s, or Cherry MX Low-Profile, but this review shows the switches in better (read: any) detail than Logitech's page: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/logitech-mx-mechanical-...

'MX' made me think it might have been Cherry, but the review says Chocs, so that's what I'll believe. MX is probably included to signal 'MX compatible stem'.

They are most likely "Kailh Choc V2". They are clones of "Cherry MX Low Profile" on the outside but not interchangeable due to a different pinout.

Some tech news sites have claimed that Kailh makes these. Kailh manufactures also the "Logitech GL" (Kailh Choc) and "Logitech GX" (Kailh's Cherry MX-clone). Cherry MXLP is not available in other than linear, and TTC's proper clone is not available in tactile.

<https://www.kailhswitch.com/mechanical-keyboard-switches/key...>

> Me, or anybody who needs a no-fuss, one-shot, buy-and-use-it-till-it-dies type of consumer.

You can get a cheaper no-fuss mechanical keyboard from reputable brands with respectable components for far less than this logitech keyboard is being sold.

From the top of my mind, Akko keyboards are quite nice, and most of their products sell for $50 less.

You'd need to be completely, utterly clueless to go to Logitech for a mechanical keyboard. The faintest of Google searches would lead you to established products which are both cheaper and better.

How many layouts do they have besides en_US?

> How many layouts do they have besides en_US?

Beats me. I do not represent the brand.

I guess worst case scenario you're a keycap set away from any keyboard layout you wish to have.

No, you cannot convert an ANSI keyboard to an ISO layout. Which is a pity, as many nice keyboards are ANSI only.

> No, you cannot convert an ANSI keyboard to an ISO layout.

A cursory search on Google returned plenty of search hits on how to convert keyboards between ANSI and ISO.

Also, apparently there are ANSI+ISO keycap sets on the market.

Anyway, I don't have a dog in the race. Anyone who is on the market for a 150$ keyboard will surely be able to Google stuff that suits their fancy.

Sorry, can you be helpful and point me to a link which shows how to do this for any given keyboard? For example, you would have to replace the left shift key with 2 separate keys, how should that work?

I don't think you can do that on most boards. The switches and stabilizers are very different between layouts. I can't imagine how would that work outside of re-soldering some switches and reassembling the board, if the PCB allows.

I think the same, you would need a different positioning of the switches on most keyboards. But as the poster I answered to was claiming you could convert them, I was curious, what he was thinking of :)

You realize ISO is physically different, like, there is one more physical key and enter is 2U high (not wide, high)? Unless the PCB was designed with that conversion in mind there's no way that's going to be possible.

> You realize ISO is physically different, like, (...)

That is only relevant as far as picking keycap sets go.

As I've pointed out, there are plenty of ANSI+ISO sets on the market.

Beyond this point, the relevance is zero.

It's a non-issue.

You've been provided answers of how this is not the case.

Observe this image of ANSI vs ISO layouts: https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2F...

Let's say I have an ANSI keybord, and I buy a set of ISO keycaps?

First of all, the enter and shift keys are not going to fit, so let's reuse the keycaps from the ANSI ones. Now we do put in all the keys and... my #/~ key is left over. There is no switch on the keyboard to mount the keycap to. ANSI keyboards do not have the same amount of keys.

Not to mention my \| is not in the right place - the ANSI shift key covers it's proper location, so guess I'm putting an undersized keycap on the top of enter. No amount of rebinding is going to let me have the left half of left shift do one thing and the right half do another.

These ANSI/ISO keycap packs you're thinking of are not indicating they will let you convert one keyboard to another. They just mean they include both shapes of enter keys, both sizes of left shift and \|, and a #~ key which doesn't exist for ANSI keyboards.

>I guess worst case scenario you're a keycap set away from any keyboard layout you wish to have.

I'm not aware of any main Logitech keyboards that support changing the keycaps. I couldn't even find replacement keycap sets for my board when I looked a year ago.

I find it apalling even Apple offers more keyboard layouts than a company focused entirely on peripherials. It's insulting honestly.

Believe or not, Apple offers a lot of keyboard layouts when compared to most computer companies.

Basically the reason why even if I'm willing to do my research on mechanical keyboards, I will still end up with a Logitech or some big brand one.

> From the top of my mind, Akko keyboards are quite nice, and most of their products sell for $50 less.

Opened the website. Almost everything out of stock. No other layout besides us_US (most european languages use accented vowels like èòàù). Clown pink and RGB everywhere. Closed the website.

To be fair, their keyboards have line names like "Naruto" and "Doraemon", so.

> Opened the website. Almost everything out of stock.

Amazon seems to have no problem stocking up on Akko keyboards. The ones I'm seeing listed as out of stock on Akko's page seem to be low-volume special editions with custom keycaps.

But again, I'm not a sales representative. Anyone interested in mechanical keyboards surely is able to use Google to find decent offers. I doubt Logitech products will feature in anyone's shortlist though.

What's the difference between Akko, EPOMAKER Akko, YUNZII Akko, Womier Akko, Gliging Akko, COSTOM Akko on Amazon?

That all looks... entirely reputable. Absolutely.

From some quick glances at /r/MechanicalKeyboard, Akko looks to be a manufacturer (primarily for switches), while the rest are various distributors.

Funking naming/branding isn't unheard of in the MK world, considering a large amount of stuff is bought from China and rebranded.

> Anyone interested in mechanical keyboards surely is able to use Google to find decent offers.

Umm, there are now almost daily threads on HN about how bad Google search has become, especially for product search... So I'd guess many people will be happy about a no-nonsense offering from a somewhat reputable manufacturer like Logitech.

I think that they don’t need to know or research or ask about other brands is the point. It’s like you know that Monster Cables will be sufficient.

That said why would such a person want a mechanical keyboard but not want to out in the effort to learn about them? I’m guessing it’s for dabblers or people who’ve heard of mechanical keyboards and it’s more an impulse buy than an investment.

(I’ve tuned my own springs by finger so that’s where I stand personally)

In my case, for the G710+ case especially, I did my research, understood what I want, did additional research and pulled the trigger.

Being happy with what I've ended with, I didn't dive deeper into that rabbit hole, because I have more important things to do than tweaking keyboards.

I'm like that. Do my research, pull the trigger once, consider the problem solved and move on.

Having many hats and ambitions limits one's time considerably. I for one only have tonight to be at home at dinner time, incl the weekend.

Sorry for not being able to live up to your standards in the mechanical keyboard realm, however being a sysadmin and programmer, I think I can want a dependable and semi-decent mechanical keyboard. Considering I've grown up with some of them. If you permit, of course.

You are not the target market. There are not enough people like you to justify a product. If you like the keyboard great, but who is their target? People who have heard of “mechanical = good” and know the Logitech brand. It’s just a weird niche compared to many more people who come into mechanical keyboards from the hobbyist tinkerer side of things.

> There are not enough people like you to justify a product. If you like the keyboard great, but who is their target? People who have heard of “mechanical = good” and know the Logitech brand.

I bet this category easily outnumbers all massdrop hypebeasts or Cherry switch sommeliers out there.

In the same way that middle-upper class men who want a nice pair of headphones, vaguely remember that "high impedance = good" and know the Sennheiser brand easily outnumber audiophiles.

I like this one that seems similar to the logitech "mini" one. https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k3-wireless-mecha...

It's low profile, has replaceable switches, can use a cable or bluetooth, is a fair price and has worked really well.

Have they improved the keycaps on the K3 since launch? I had one at launch and ended up returning it because the keycaps were so poor. Very rough with lots of imperfections.

I have the revised K3 and the keycaps don’t have any quality issues. You should be good to reorder.

Thanks! I actually did like the keyboard, but the keycaps were unbearable bad and I went back to my Magic Keyboard (which I don't mind at all, really; I just know I can do better and would like to explore a bit)

I've found it worth buying a set of keycaps that I know I like. Even amongst keycaps made of the same plastic (PBT), they don't always feel the same. And in my experience, the keycaps make as much or more of a difference in feeling as the switches themselves.

Specifically, I bought a set of the Granite DSA keycaps several years ago and always use them on my primary keyboard.

The problem with the linked keyboard, the K3, is it's ultra low profile. At least at launch, there were no alternatives on the market except the ones that it came with. The keycaps are thinner than my phone and I remember trying different keycaps and I think they worked (maybe upside down?), but not well.

I have this and it’s nice except I would much rather have a dongle the bluetooth.

I haven’t found any wireless mechanical keyboards with a dongle until this Logitech one.

I have one of those, but the wireless doesn't work well for me (shuts off after about 5-10 minutes, takes a few seconds to turn on again, and runs down the battery in less than a week), and the it defaults to a really crazy looking moving backlight scheme.

On the other hand, I have a wireless logitech with a little trackpad I use for controlling my PC from my couch that's been on the same set of AAA batteries for over a year. So a proper mechanical logitech with a wireless dongle is sort of appealing to me.

Wow - that’s only half the price!

What’s the battery life like, and how fast is the wake up time? (I’m a Mac user in case it matters. )

Honestly I just use it wired and it looks like others are not impressed with the Bluetooth. Maybe one of them will chime in.

I've been using a similar one as well. Specifically, the RK68 Pro.

The Bluetooth is... okay. It takes a few seconds to wake up, but it doesn't turn off for about 30 minutes. Battery life has been fine with BT 5.0. I want to say somewhere in the range of a couple weeks? All with backlighting disabled.

USB wireless is a bit of a joke, honestly. I've had it lose signal even just a foot or so away with absolutely nothing (except air) between the dongle and keyboard. I have to have the dongle at about 8" or less to maintain a reliable connection.

Overall, I'd say the keyboard is fantastic for the money. I'm truly wowed by the mechanical keyboards you can get for comparatively very cheap prices these days.

That being said, I still generally trust a company like Logitech to get Bluetooth and RF USB to be less flakey. Sure, other smaller companies get it right too, but I've had to do way more experimentation and messing around in order to find that.

Though if you can do with a wired keyboard, then I wouldn't bother with the Logitech, personally.

> You'd need to be completely, utterly clueless to go to Logitech for a mechanical keyboard. The faintest of Google searches would lead you to established products which are both cheaper and better.

Not clueless, just not someone who would Google around for reviews or care to get the absolute best. They go to Best Buy. This is virtually every adult I know over age 40/50 outside of the industry. They'll roll up to Best Buy for a new keyboard, see this and think "cool! Some new type of thing!"

A household brand name like Logitech is significant. They've been making mice almost as long as I've had a computer. This is extremely important to anyone who's been around long enough to have ventured into trying alternatives and eventually come back to the big names for consistency, warranty, return-ability.

> This is virtually every adult I know over age 40/50 outside of the industry.

Or even a lot of people in their 20s and 30s inside the [programming/IT?] industry.

Some people are fine spending 20% of the time to get 80% of the features and are willing to spend a bit more money to do so.

Yep, I'm in that bunch now. I used to be intense into research and DIY.

BUT now I've got more money than time.

So if it comes to my door in 2 days and/or can just be returned.. I don't flinch at $50- 100 premiums.

I got a random mechanical keyboard for $50 on an eBay auction. It is a Logitech keyboard and it is terrible, probably the worst keyboard I have ever used. It lasted less than a year before button pressed started registering twice or not at all.

I'm a big fan of the Logitech Triathlon keyboards and mice (which this one seems to be among).

I use a Kinesis Advantage and USB/DP KVM on my desk, but have switched my spouse and my basement computers over to the Triathlon keyboards and mice (which support hotkey switching among three computers, including mixed Bluetooth and multi-device USB dongle connections). My spouse switches between her work laptop and Macbook without fussing with cables or a KVM and is quite happy with it.

(I bought much cheaper M720 and K850/K780 keyboards on Ebay, but the underlying convention/functionality seems the same and is really slick/cheap for multi-computer usage.)

Whilst I get your point - you might want to tone down the rhetoric slightly...

I'm a mechanical keyboard aficionado - I've gone through everything from Das, to Annes, to WhiteFoxes, to Keychrons. (Yes, I did solder some of those...lol).

My current daily driver is a Keychron K6 - but even I am seriously considering this Logitech.

The spec sheet promises a battery life of 10 months (no backlight) - the Keychron K6 is fine - except that the battery life sucks, and it takes 3-4 seconds to wake up from sleep every time.

I'm looking for a QMK wireless keyboard, but they're thin on the ground - and I suspect the battery life would still be terrible.

At the end of the day, companies like Logitech (or Apple) have the time and engineering nous to test things, and have them Just Work. Things like decent battery life, or having fast wake-from-sleep would probably be handled by their engineering teams.

You would think. The most annoying piece of hardware I have is a Microsoft wireless mouse which, while it's physically fine, goes to sleep very quickly and takes roughly a second to wake up when you move it. It's pretty much unusable as a result. Which is disappointing, because MS hardware generally is pretty good, but I guess everyone misses sometimes.

> guess everyone misses sometimes.

It's still strange to me how companies like Microsoft and Logitech can still regularly produce lemons after, what, 15 years of optical mouse production. It's not like anything fundamentally changes any more, they should have a winning set of virtually perfect devices that cover the entire market with interlocking segments by now.

I guess they're going for the "make it bit shit on purpose so we can sell them another mouse in 2 years" strategy.

Or maybe they just cannot help themselves from penny pinching good products into bad products so continually that you don't even know which are which any more (and you certainly can't tell if the expensive models are actually better or not).

I guess it's good that they're leaving market gaps open for the little guys?

>because MS hardware generally is pretty good

After a couple years of supporting Surface devices, I have very different views in this regard.

I was more thinking peripherals. The Natural keyboard line and their cheap mice were always just rock solid. Admittedly I've not been in the market for them for a while so I don't know what the latest models are like, but I did find the irony that a software company's best products were its hardware ones rather delicious.

> I'm looking for a QMK wireless keyboard, but they're thin on the ground

The issue with wireless keyboards and QMK is that Bluetooth is such a messed up protocol and to implement it QMK would realistically have to deal with proprietary binary blobs which they choose not to. I heard there's some work on "custom" 2.4GHz transmission modes but that's not as universal or ubiquitous as Bluetooth is.

Maybe check out ZMK, basically a QMK for wireless keyboards but more opiniated. I'm about to build a wireless corne with it after years on a wired QMK Planck.

Battery life for closed source keyboards made by big companies will always be better because they have the resources to perfectly engineer the hardware and code for every model and the willingness to cut lots of corners in terms of customizability. Same with any other piece of hardware.

I'd personally prefer some form of wireless which is specifically not Bluetooth. For one, I'm typing this on an old desktop that doesn't have BT of any kind and I don't want to have a dedicated keyboard for choosing my OS (I sometimes use windows on this computer).

Also, sometimes there's noticeable lag when typing on a BT keyboard (I have experience with an older Apple keyboard on an MBP and with a Keychron). I've never had such issues with either of my MS sculpt keyboard or Logitech mice and keyboards (nor with my Logitech lightspeed mice which are amazing, but I realize that's something else).

> I'm looking for a QMK wireless keyboard, but they're thin on the ground - and I suspect the battery life would still be terrible.

QMK's bluetooth stack is pretty fucking broken and has limited chipsets it supports. You'll have more luck with https://github.com/jpconstantineau/BlueMicro_BLE or https://github.com/zmkfirmware/zmk

I've seen dongles you can buy (I think in the $30-$50 range) that sit between your normal non-QMK keyboard and your computer. Then when you press a key, the dongle takes the keycodes from your keyboard, runs them through QMK, and everything works like your keyboard had QMK to begin with.

This is probably the route I'd go for a wireless board. I'd likely choose a keyboard that really has the wireless part down (Logitech is a decent option here, I think - the experience with their receiver is better than Bluetooth for input devices in my experience) and then run it through one of those dongles if I really wanted wireless.

> The spec sheet promises a battery life of 10 months (no backlight) - the Keychron K6 is fine - except that the battery life sucks, and it takes 3-4 seconds to wake up from sleep every time.

Turn off sleep. There's a key combo to do it (at least, there was on my model). It has such a small effect on battery life that I have no idea why they default to making it go to sleep like every two minutes of inactivity.

I do sometimes look at my mouse that's also bluetooth and runs on a single AA battery for months, and wonder WTF Keychron's doing wrong with power management. Oh well, at least it can work plugged-in, too. And it was cheap.

> You can get a cheaper no-fuss mechanical keyboard from reputable brands with respectable components for far less than this logitech keyboard is being sold.

This actually looks decently low-profile, what are similar reputable brand keyboards that are equal to or less than the height of this keyboard?

Now Amazon offers many non famous brand (likely rebranded Chinese OEM) products and find good one from there is nightmare. Some consumer may stick familiar brand like Logitech or Corsair.

I cannot speak for their recent keyswitches, but I bought a Logitech mechanical keyboard a few years back and the switches started failing after a couple of years. Being able to replace keyswitches kept the thing running for a few months longer. Eventually I gave up and replaced the entire keyboard since it became clear this was a design issue rather than a manufacturer defect. Still, the ability to replace a broken keyswitch is a feature when paying anywhere from 5 to 10 times more for a keyboard.

Long story short: that mechanical keyboard was not the modern incarnation the tanks of years gone by. I am using one based upon Cherry switches at the moment. I don't have enough experience to judge the long term outcome, but my initial research suggests a similar outcome. Most of the hype around modern mechanicals seem to focus upon sound and feel (and, more justifiably, the ability to build your own), rather than quality. If that's the case, I feel that the gradual degradation of cheap keyboards is a more desirable outcome.

I'm running a G710+ at home for five years at least (I bought when it was just discontinued for a steep discount), and written my Ph.D. on that, incl. the code and the manuscript, I can say that they're not bad.

Nothing is broken, no led is burnt off or no key has faded.

Being said that the G710+ uses CherryMX Browns which do not tend to die that easily.

It was a G413 in my case, with Romer-G switches if I recall correctly.

I also have the 710 but with blue switches. My volume scroll wheel died in a year or two but it's also 8 years old now and apart from the volume wheel, it works just as well as the day I bought it. I just clean it twice a year.

Sturdy as heck for a keyboard that cost me 60 euros and I've used thousands of hours.

I'm on my 5th Corsair keyboard with Cherry switches - they eventually always start double clicking, Corsair replaces the keyboard under warranty, rinse and repeat. It's awful from electronics waste point of view, but I just don't see those as very reliable products.

Maybe the keyboard has a bad debouncer [0] design rather than bad switches?

[0]: https://www.eejournal.com/article/ultimate-guide-to-switch-d...

Curious. I'm on my 1st Corsair with Cherry switches. Bought it second-hand in as-new condition from a mate about 5 years ago, gave it its second clean last night, removed 1.5kg of cat fur, and it's as-new again.

It's an absolute tank and the ONLY thing I'd give it up for is a mint-condition Model M.

This is also exactly the kind of thing I was looking for and the reason I bought a CODE Keyboard years ago when they came out. I don’t know whether my keys are swappable and I don’t care. I just wanted something to replace my Model M that has super and media keys and a backlight.

This is the one that I've been using for quite some time: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k6-wireless-mecha...

I'm not a keyboard geek (I don't touch-type, for one thing), and feel you, for the "one-stop shop" thing.

I do have a couple of old Logitech keyboards, collecting dust in a bin, upstairs.

I also have a Keychron and it has been a one stop, buy and use until it dies kind of thing for me.

I had 3 keychron keyboards, each lasted less than a year before the switches failed, reverted back to a logitech K780 from 5+ years ago and it works a champ.

Also Keychron had some obscure usb cable requirement, that they could never convey over support emails. You would think that any usbc usbc cable would work for a keyboard, but not the few I had laying around that were longer than the provided one

Just my two cents, I wouldn't buy another Keychron

I still have the original small KeyChron, it’s been a beast. Had it for years now. I abuse it mightily and it won’t quit.

Maybe their QA has fallen in recent years?

I also have 3 keychrons. One for my wife and myself with a second one with cherry clears for myself. None of them are having problems and they’ve been daily drivers for years now.

How long does it typically last until it does? What model do you have?

The K6 (small non-numpad).

I dunno. It works OK for me (and I use a cheap off-brand USB cable that works fine for me). I keep it plugged in, so I don't really care about wireless or Bluetooth.

Like I said, I am not really fanatical about keyboards. I wanted the RGB backlights, relatively tactile (but not super -I use red keys), and fairly small. I also wanted wired. This is wireless, but runs as wired.

It seems to be a common frame. I think I have seen almost identical port layouts in other brands.

I brought it about a year ago.

I have the K2 LED/aluminum, hot swappable model with the medium click keys. It's 2ish years old I think. I mostly use it plugged in so I don't have to think about charging. I use it every day and it's worked great. It was my first and only mechanical keyboard, and I love typing on it. It makes me want to type.

I use a non-backlit K8 during the day and a backlit K2 at night. I like the keychrons so much I ordered a second hot-swappable K8 and some custom quiet switches for making videos.

My mk journey went das keyboard > cooler master > leopold > vortex > keychron. I haven't looked for anything different since I got the keychrons.

Why would you buy a wireless keyboard for "daily work" which needs to be "no-fuss"?

You are putting your security at risk (who knows whether the encryption is secure or whether the Logitech drivers are backdoored), as well as your convenience since you'll need to charge it periodically and there's a good chance you'll forget it (or forgot to buy disposable batteries if that's what it uses) and be completely unable to use the keyboard for a while, and it will have more latency and may even fail to work due to interference; on top of that, you'll pay more for these drawbacks.

You should really only buy a wireless keyboard for very specialized needs where you need to move it around while not also moving the PC with it.

Simple. To keep my desk clean.

First of all, my threat vector doesn't contain wireless attacks, and we'd have more serious problems if we come to that.

Also, that thing can work probably while being charged, so no fuss. Otherwise, it can charge for a full day's worth of work in 15 minutes, which is just a coffee break. I know it's no advertisement since Sony is doing the same thing on many things for 10 years now?

The devices which are using disposable batteries last for 2-3 years in average, and warn well before they're going to run out of energy. So again, no unexpected power losses in that case.

Wireless keyboards neither have latency or interference issues at least for a decade for the type of work I'm doing. We're not selecting frequencies with DIP switches anymore.

I'm still using Logitech solar K750 first gen which is about 12 or so years old. Best no fuss keyboard I've ever had. Always ready, still holding charge, wireless just works all the time. One of my best purchases ever in regards of getting value out of spent money.

Having one less cable on your desk is neat. I used wireless keyboard for a while (and still use one with the computer that is connected to my TV).

I ended up moving back to wired keyboard though mostly because the wireless one tended to go to sleep and take half a second to a second reconnecting when woken.

If technically feasibly, I would pay a premium for every single device and peripheral to be wireless.

I want my desk to be 100% free of clutter and cables and am willing to live with having to recharge devices, paying a premium and am not at all concerned that someone would hack my wireless webcam.

With wireless charging and desk mats you may not even need to plug them in to charge them anymore.

And some of them just have a crazy good battery life.

I have a desktop Windows setup (connected directly to monitors, no dock) + laptop-connected-to-the-dock macbook setup, both connected to the same monitors. The two keyboards I use are wireless HHKB Pro Hybrid and wireless Apple Magic Keyboard (along with Apple's dedicated trackpad).

HHKB has an ok battery life, I swap out batteries about once every few weeks or so. The connection is fine, but I have to manually wake it up with a dedicated button after it goes to sleep, and it takes about 5 seconds to connect, and it doesn't always work on the first try. At worst, after another try, it works fine. Initial pairing process was a bit meh, but it wasn't terrible.

But Apple's keyboard is some sort of black magic when it comes to both battery life and connectivity (same with their trackpad tbh). I plug it in to charge maybe once every couple of months, and even then it doesn't get close to being fully drained (usually around 15-20% left by that point). And that's despite me using it for my full-time job. The connectivity is also wildly good. No need to hold a button to wake it up, I just press any key and it connects in a couple of seconds just flawlessly. Initial pairing or switching between different devices is braindead easy too (which I do daily, to switch between my personal and work macbooks). I just connect it to whichever machine I want to use it with using the included cable, then disconnect, and it is automatically wirelessly paired to that machine. It is just remarkable that I have been doing it for almost 2 years now, and not once have I had even a single hiccup.

Using Apple's keyboard was what convinced me to switch my Windows one to wireless as well (had a wired HHKB Pro 2 before that). No wires is just so convenient. And with the only downside being that sometimes my current HHKB sometimes takes 5 seconds to connect after waking up from sleep, it ended up being totally worth it (and with the Apple's MKB, there were zero downsides for me at all).

And I am saying this as someone who used to be all about wired-only mechanical keyboards for years and I still have a few with MX Reds/Browns/Blues sitting in my old equipment box.

It charges using a standard usb cable. With the RGB turned off, it lasts months at a time. It is usable as a standard usb keyboard while plugged in to charge.

Because that one keyboard (and a MX Master Mouse) can connect to 3 machines, one being a Macintosh Quadra. Also less desktop clutter.

> Me, or anybody who needs a no-fuss, one-shot, buy-and-use-it-till-it-dies type of consumer.

I'm using a buy-and-use-it-till-it-dies mechanical keyboard that plugs into my USB port[0]. It doesn't need to be charged, won't die on me in the middle of typing, doesn't interfere with any of my Bluetooth / wireless spectrum. It's perfect for someone who's no-fuss.

[0] https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/shop/index.php?l=product_det...

I ordered Nuphy Air 75 [1] and am waiting for the delivery. It is a low profile 75% board with 2.4GHz connection plus 3 bluetooth connections and has 3 switch options, all Gateron low profile. Has good online reviews, and for a custom mech board it isn't too expensive either. (Disclaimer: Not associated with them in any other way)

[1] https://nuphy.com/products/air75

Can the fn key be remapped to alt/opt? I like the layout but I use the right opt key more than the fn key.

I haven't gotten it myself but I believe they have a software to remap keys (windows only for now I think). Another bummer is that it isn't QMK compatible. Probably worth checking their forums or emailing customer care before placing an order.

After looking at the product listing, it's pretty clear who it's for. Non-techfolk that want to try out a mechanical keyboard. Or heck the older techies who haven't kept up with stuff, but miss the tactile feel of KBs of the 70s/80s.

Other mechanical keyboards have different switch-types listed, but even as a user of a mech keyboard for a decade now I couldn't tell you which is which without looking it up. Logitech simplified it with "Tactile Quiet", "Linear", and "Clicky". You immediately know which style is for you without having to consult some switch tactile/loudness chart or ask the mechanical keyboard cult for their take. They've lowered the bar of entry into the mechanical keyboard market. Do other companies do the same or go the extra mile to simplify the process? Probably, but it carries a lot more weight when the biggest name in computer peripherals does it.

As for me, I might give it a go eventually. If they take a cue from the MX mouse series with how damn customizable it is binding buttons to actions, then I'll definitely be grabbing it.

If you don't try a few switches how do you know you got the best ones for your taste? Some are clicky, some are linear, some have double clicks (both going up and down), some are heavy, others are light.

The caps matter too - full height, half height, flat or with a small depression in the middle, various types of plastic, with painted symbols or injection molded symbols for light transparency.

This comment perfectly sums up my experience trying to get into mechanical keyboards. So many choices and no good way of trying them out to figure out what I'd actually like.

Because a) I've used IBM buckling spring keyboards and b) I've tried a lot of them on displays at shops. There were also switch samplers on display, so I was able to do side by side comparisons.

My requirements were clear. Light, some feedback, not so noisy, which is squarely brown.

Caps were easy. Put your fingers. Write a Hello World code, see how it feels. Is it alright? Done.

I've used ~15 keyboards in my life, if not more. I know what I like and I'm looking for.

Good for you. I ordered a switch sampler online and 2-3 keyboards until I found one that works for me. It's hard to know what you'll like unless you use it for a few days.

For example I have a heavy + linear keyboard, I was originally disappointed by it but I grew into it in a few weeks. Now I love the energy I get from the rebound of the keys.

> anybody who needs a no-fuss, one-shot, buy-and-use-it-till-it-dies type of consumer.

If this is like my other Logitech keyboards, that's about 2.1 years.

...and if this is like my other Logitech peripherals, it's > 10 years.

I own a DasKeyboard with MX Browns and it's my daily driver at work. I prefer MX Blue switches (or even MX Greens) because I grew up in the old buckling spring era of IBM keyboard dominance (my home keyboard is an old Model M from the late 90s). I would use a clicky keyboard at work, but my coworkers don't like it, so I stick with the browns. I HIGHLY recommend the DasKeyboard. It's hefty, and I installed a custom key set with my preferred key profile and I LOVE it.

This is the one I own and I can't recommend it highly enough: https://www.daskeyboard.com/model-s-professional/

Same here. I got two of the Das Keyboard 4 (one for work, one for home) over 7 years ago and they're still going strong. I like the brown switches personally.

I hadn't realized how much using membrane switch was causing RSI until I switched to mechanical keyboards.

I used a Das Keyboard for over a decade and loved it. Now I've switched to a Drop Alt so I can hotswap "better" switches and run QMK, which I've grown completely dependent on (https://jkaptur.com/layout/).

For me, keyboards like Das Keyboard, Alt, Ctrl, etc. are the perfect satisfice: good keyboards, at a price that's not terrible, with a time & research commitment that falls below the level of "hobby". I could easily see the Logitech keyboard fitting into this niche. The only question is how big a niche it is - how many of us are out there who like a nice keyboard, but are lukewarm/meh about soldering?

What's the logic of using a tiny 40% keyboard like the guy uses in that blog post?

Just adding effort to add additional keys using capslock.

People have different preferences: https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/comments/37pw1s...

That said (author here), I actually use a 65% for daily use. The 40% was too small for me to use comfortably. I could get used to the caps lock for arrow keys and text editing stuff, but having to remember shortcuts to type a semicolon just wasn't for me.

I can understand why people use 60/70% keyboards. I personally couldn't give up the numpad, home/end/pgup/pgdown/arrow keys for it, but there's definitely something to be said for the comfort level of having the mouse less far off from the keyboard.

I think once you're into anything less than 60%, either you literally just type text and use the mouse/touchpad items instead of keyboard shortcuts, or you're more focused in the aesthetic minimalism rather than the functionality.

I've had my eye on a few 40% builds as of late, so I'll throw another option into your list here: portability. I'm looking for a keyboard that I can throw in my laptop bag that isn't miserable to type on. I had a Microsoft Designer Keyboard for a while but it's worse than my laptop keyboard, so I'm back to the drawing board, and this seems like where I'm landing.

Ah, I've got a 100% G915 and it fits in my backpack fine for a trip to the office or something.

Maybe if the bag was filled for plane travel that'd be a problem.

I use a tiling window manager, emacs+evil-mode, and firefox+vimperator with a keyboard.io atreus (44 keys ergonomic) and it's basically fine if you go "all in"? sometimes I have to struggle to find the layer with the F-keys spread out like a numpad on my right hand, but I don't really use them and have their features bound to shortcuts that are easier to find, and that's probably most of the reason.

I don't have to take my hands off the keyboard to do stuff like navigate text simply, pause/mute music (instead my pinky goes to the bottom of the keyboard and all the keys on the other hand change function), my software can all be driven from the "common" keybindings and modifiers like ctrl/alt/win are on my thumbs instead of being offset below my pinkies.

Importantly, i can throw it in my bag with my laptop and use it when i am traveling so there is very little context-switching that has to occur.

None of this really carries over when I boot in to windows, though, and I keep a ten-keyless keyboard around for playing video games.

I made a split keyboard for me (I need to write up that post at some point), and I just made holding out the tilde convert the right half (yuihjknm,) to a numpad. It works great, since I don't use any other keys while using the numpad, and I get to save all that space and switches for something I rarely use.

Having done both, "the mouse goes on the left" is a far easier change to make than learning a minimised keyboard layout.

So my mouse is _very_ right handed. I have some smaller symmetrical mice that are less comfortable. I'm curious how this change worked for you - Did you get a leftie mouse? Did you swap the buttons?

Symmetrical mouse, no button swaps. I'm currently using one of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B073WGB8G6 but I first started doing it with a cheapy Microsoft wired mouse.

I used a 50% (Preonic, so 5x12 1u keys, with an option to use a 2u spacebar by sacrificing a slot on the bottom row) for a while, so:

The switches felt great to use (chosen myself), the keycaps were still easily customizable to an office-appropriate yet imo stylish theme, and the default layout was intelligently designed to where most functionality was already within reach of your fingers.

Functionality would be in 'layers'. While they're usually numbered, I think of them as 'Alternate Shift', where normal Shift is 'up 1' (CAPITALS, and !@#$%^), and other layers can be whatever you want, i.e. `Layer2 A` = "{", `Layer2 S` = "}". The layout is set by the (often customizable) firmware.

I stopped using it when I changed to a 100% remote job, but keep it as a display piece.

There are layers which can be used and the layout minimizes the need to stretch and angle fingers for keys. However I tried the Planck EZ ortholinear keyboard and it was terrible. I felt like I was huddled over the keyboard like a chipmunk eating an acorn. For me, I discovered that what I really wanted was a split keyboard and that the number of keys to reach was not my problem. The configurability of the Planck EZ was amazing, but I was really looking for comfort and ergonomics.

I had a Das keyboard and it was the best.

I did have a Das Keyboard 4 Ultimate fail on me after 6 years (the switches in the F and G key started to not always register).

I'm sure someone with a steadier hand could maybe fix it with a soldering iron.

I did see some of the reviews of the newer revisions were less positive than their historical record

Second, I love this keyboard, but it isn't wireless, which I think is a fair requirement. I personally like my keyboards to be wired, but can see why someone might seek out something like the Logitech keyboard.

Even with the browns, in a quiet office full of laptop keyboard users, any mechanical keyboard is going to seem loud. Mechanical keyboards always had the multiple benefits for me of: 1) more like the thing I grew up using, 2) loud enough that maybe they'd prefer I work from home :)

> but it isn't wireless, which I think is a fair requirement

I don't see how this is a fair requirement.

Most people would rather NOT be one 0day RF side-channel attack or bluetooth link key compromise away from someone outside their house with a high-gain antenna grabbing their LUKS or ssh key passphrases.

KeySniffer II is a question of when, not if.

"Most people" don't have LUKS or SSH key passphrases.

That's not a realistic threat model for most people.

I tried a DasKeyboard and found that certain keys would "catch" against the side of other keys due to spacing issues between the keys and the angle of attack of my fingers while typing - enough that it would occasionally prevent the key from registering. Swapped it out for another keyboard of the same make/model and had the same issue with the same keys and another couple of keys. Not sure if that's an issue with my particular way of typing or the build quality, or both.

Ended up returning it and going back to my WASD Code keyboard with MX Browns and just getting a different keycap set for it. It's a similar price to the DasKeyboard (and this Logitech one), and for individually backlit keys that seems to be the common price point. Pretty easy to dismantle and clean as well, so I definitely recommend it.

I've owned two DasKeyboards (one with Browns, one with Blues) and they are sturdy as hell, built like a tank...but for the life of me I don't understand why their Mac models don't come with the right media key layout on the F-row. It's literally my only hangup with them.

if you're looking for this: leopold is your jam.

Leopolds are great! High quality no fuss builds.

Does "use-it-till-it-dies" mean if a single switch goes bad you'll just buy a whole new keyboard? If so, I recommend not spending so much on a mechanical as the ability to swap individual switches is one of the main things you're paying for.

I’ve been using mechanical keyboards for at least a decade now and the only time I’ve had a switch go bad was when I spilled a drink on it. Technically it was still good but since it was a sugary drink the switch got sticky.

As many before me have said, I am a professional programmer. I don’t care nor have the time to replace switches. I have a backup keyboard that gets swapped in if a switch goes out. I’m never going to tear a board apart to replace a switch.

I spilled half a pint of beer into my kinesis advantage (cherry brown switches) and it worked fine after opening it and giving it a wipe down and letting it dry. Switches failing just isn't on my radar. I'd be more worried about the extra failure mode of the sockets needed for swappable switches. If it comes down to it I can solder in a new switch.

If a single switch goes bad after 15 years of constant usage, I wouldn't feel so bad, to be honest. Considering the worst membrane keyboard I have is going strong after 10 years (which is a Microsoft keyboard), I believe this G710+ can last much more than that.

We have 20+ year old keyboards at office which are going strong and some are even connected via DIN to USB adapters.

So a good mechanical switch like a Cherry MX cannot be killed in a reasonable amount of time even if you use it daily without abusing it, if there's no defect in production.

I didn't change a Logitech peripheral due to malfunction until now. Some of these are used daily, non stop.

So, I'm not expecting this G710+ to apply for retirement soon.

Wait, is my i key not registering? Nope, just joking. :)

I have the gaming version of this keyboard and it's great: https://www.logitechg.com/en-us/products/gaming-keyboards/g9...

It never drops off, it feels great to type on. The lighting and everything is configurable, and will even light up the hot keys you need for a specific game!

It's a great experience. I have no interest in a customizable keyboard, I just want one that works.

Caveat: I broke the keycap on my = key within 6 months (my fault, it caught on my laptop when packing in a bag), and there's no market for single/small quantity keycap replacements (even blank) unlike keyboards using more standard Cherry switches so I'm just using the exposed switch.

I feel that. Not everyone wants to make keyboards a hobby.

What I'll say is: I've had both the MX Keys, and the G915. The MX Keys is the baby brother chicklet version of this one. The G915 is Logitech's gaming-grade low-profile mechanical keyboard, using switches that visually look similar to this one. I've had switch failures on both, within 18 months of (reasonably heavy) use; double typing, missed inputs, etc. The only keyboard I've had fail quicker is the MacBook Pro butterfly keyboards; but I have a half dozen which have lasted significantly longer.

A few other paths I'd recommend which are better:

1. Go to Best Buy. I know, old school. Most have a gaming products isle, with keyboards, and a display area with a bunch of them. Try them all out. Try to find one with standard Cherry switches (most have them nowadays, except Logitech and maybe Razer; and they'll advertise it proudly on the box). They'll have RGB and other nonsense, but they're reasonably price competitive and generally solid keyboards. Corsair makes some good ones; I have a Corsair that sees daily use that's gotta be 4-5 years old now, on Cherry MX Red switches.

2. Something like this: https://kbdfans.com/collections/fully-assembled-keyboard. Pre-assembled DIY. You'll probably end up paying a bit more, and even their pre-assembly DIY configurator is, frankly, daunting. But the only thing to really worry about is selecting the right switch brand for you; and YouTube can help a lot, locating videos of people typing on each switch type. For the totally uninclined: Cherry Reds are the classic novice switch (or Silent Reds if you want really low sound, but the Reds themselves are pretty quiet).

Frankly, to me; this isn't a situation where I will argue "all big box brands suck, don't buy a big box". Some of them are pretty good. But Logitech keyboards have really dropped in quality lately; if you're going to go big box, at least don't go Logitech, please.

I have the G915tkl and it still works perfectly over two years later. Wild that you had such bad experience with them!

I have the G915 TKL (Clicky) an it is awesome. It is low profile and works great for programing.

Any regular Cherry MX keyboard is going to have tall keys, and it is just aweful for programming in general (long key travel makes typing around, and moving arrow keys, harder as it takes more effort).

I have build 2 custom keyboards, and have 2 more prebuild cherry mx keyboards, and I will never buy or work on a regular profile keyboard again. Low profile is are just much better ergonomically, and right now the G915 is one of the best in the market. (but it is pricey)

Me as well. I usually just go for the cheap $20-$40 keyboard that I know will break after about 12-18 months, and replace it. The only thing that I now pause on is 2.4ghz which REALLY sucks in an apartment. My last 2 wireless keyboards stopped working consistently (due to radio interference from what I can tell) and have been replaced with a second-hand alienware mechanical gaming keyboard.

It is quiet enough that I can type (albeit VERY slowly/softly) while I'm on a call, but nowhere near as quiet as the crappy logitechs I always get.

I'm by no means a "keyboard person", but I do try to minimize my e-waste and and my costs.

Swappable keys aren't exactly a power-use feature. I remove my keycaps every so often to clean them, and swapping a broken switch is basically as easy using the keycap/switch tool that came with my board. It also means I can do a repair for a couple of dollars over buying a whole board. Not to mention I have a bunch of spare switches that came with my board so I can do a repair in a minute.

Then go and buy a DAS keyboard. Reliable, simple, traditional key mappings, nothing fancy, and a usable volume knob.

If you want a cheap mechanical use-it-until-it-dies keyboard, I recommend https://www.prohavit.com/products/kb487l-tkl-mechanical-keyb... -- $69US

I bought a decent mechanical keyboard (Cherry MX). No solder, no installing switches yourself, etc.

No fuss mechanical keyboard already exist. No need to ditch repairability, etc.

Yeah, throw an entire overpriced keyboard away because a single switch died. It's great for the wallet and the environment.

I've spent a huge amount of my life typing on a keyboard, and I've never had a switch fail. Is this a legitimate concern?

It’s obviously a YMMV kind of thing, but I’ve had mechanical keyboards in the past with failing switches (one Cherry MX switch, and three Matias Quiet Click switches on three different keyboards!).

Matias Quiet Click are very prone to this. I've had 3 fail on one board and 2 on another.

It’s more common on mechanical keyboards than membrane. I have had mechanical switches start double clicking. Never had a membrane keyboard fail.

I don’t think it’s going to die for another decade, but we’ll see.

If the push comes to shove, I think I can solder a single switch from a major manufacturer. I’m not the one to shy away from a soldering iron at the end of the day.

There are tons of boards like that out there for far less money

Will it be so well rounded like the ones which are comparable in price with the MX (e.g. Das, Leopold, etc.), so I can buy one and use without any tweaking?

Or will they be supported by a warranty so well that they'll just send me a replacement without shipping anything back?

Remember, I've said I have no time. I want to plug and forget the device.

Yes. Literally tons of them. The only difference is that you might not be able to pick it up at Best Buy.

I’d not cross an ocean to get a keyboard from Best Buy.

Also, some of the most touted brands can’t be shipped to my country either.

In that case, I would recommend looking into one of Keychron's low profile options. Firstly, they're about half the price of this Logitech board, depending on the size you choose to go with. Second, there's twice as many configurations to choose from (Full size, TKL, 75%, and 65%). Even further, they have higher quality and a greater variety in choice of switches, regardless if you choose Keychron's own or Gateron switches. They lack 2.4Ghz conncetion, but there is both bluetooth (with up to 3 paired devices) and USB-C wired connection available. While the logitech board does have USB-C charging, it doesn't explictly state that it supports wired use, which is an option I hold in high regard for wireless keyboards. Final bonus with the Keychron boards is not having to use Logitech's software. Personally, I haven't had any issues with their stuff, but I've seen many that have sworn off of Logitech completely due to buggy software. Stepping away from the personal use aspect, that software often adds yet another path for security vulnerablities. [1]

Didn't mean to go off on such a rant, but if helps even one person choose a better board than a Logitech, I'd say it was worth it. As someone who's used a Logitech board daily for 6 years, I'd recommend looking elsewhere - especially for the money.

>If it's adequately close to MX Browns, I'll get one.

In my experience with Logitech switches, you will be disappointed. I own boards with both Romer-G Browns and Blues. I kid you not that I've felt linear switches that had more tactility than either of these switches produce.

[1] https://www.bleepingcomputer.com/news/security/razer-bug-let...

I got a Keychron K8 Tenkeyless for GBP99.99 off of Amazon. It's got hotswap key switch capability (I picked Gateron Browns but I plan to experiment with other switches), bluetooth connectivity for up to three devices and wired. It's also got RGB but I'm genrally not fussed about that on devices.

The stock keycaps are nice enough but I replaced mine with the Drop MT3 Dasher caps only because I'm a crusty old ex-Data General engineer looking for a nostalgia kick :).

All in all it's a real nice keyboard. It's also absolutely solid in construction with a metal frame and you could easily do someone quite serious (defensive) GBH with it.

I'm not sure why anyone would buy the Logitech in question, not being able to swap key switches these days on a $100+ keyboard seems a bit mean, and was a bit of a deal breaker for me when hunting down what is my first customisable mechanical keyboard.

I should also add that mechanical keyboards are in no way a hobby thing for me and I certainly won't be spending hours on end on customisations other than the odd key switch experiment.

As someone who wanted:

1) Bluetooth

2) Multi-device support/switching (3 minimum)

3) Wired-use operation as a backup

4) Mechanical switches

BUT ALSO:

5) Not to have to give a shit about my keyboard, or spend much time on it, and ideally not spend much money, either

I settled on a Keychron and it's been really good for my purposes. It's a solid keyboard for someone who wants an entirely OK mechanical keyboard for non-bank-breaking prices.

I have had exactly two problems with it, one resolved:

1) It liked to "go to sleep" way too fast, then took 3-5 seconds to wake up and reconnect. A quick look at the manual showed me how to turn that off with some magic key combos. It lasts days on a charge regardless, so it was purely an annoyance. Anyway, that's resolved.

2) The stupid l33t g4m3r d00d light patterns it can do. This was one of the most subdued mechanical keyboards I could find (WHY do so many have this crap?!), and it still has this damn "feature". You can set it to steady, low, always-on light, which is the only thing I ever want, but there's a button at the top right corner that's easy to brush by accident which causes it to cycle to the next light pattern. You then have to hit it like 20 times to get back to "stop trying to look like fucking Las Vegas" mode. I'd have paid an extra $10 to not have this "feature". Just remove the whole damn thing, set it permanently to steady-light, and keep the dim/bright keys for it only (which can also be used to turn it to zero, so, off). I manage to screw this up about once every couple weeks. It's annoying, but not enough to get me to buy a different, probably more expensive, keyboard.

Have K3, besides accidental backlight change, no issues at all. Small comfortable, multidevice support (always connected to my pc via cable, simple switch to BT connection to work Macbook). Also not tried my self, but it looks like there is possible to reprogram backlight patterns with their software: https://www.keychron.com/pages/how-to-program-the-backlight-...

Great, since it might be possible, now I'm going to have to look into finding a way to program my keyboard to fix the backlight thing. And here I was trying not to have to tinker with my keyboard :-)

(seriously, though, thanks for the tip)

I was looking at it today on Amazon. It looks interesting, but I'm not sure if it will work well with Linux. Anyone know?

I don't use mine with linux unfortunately but the existance of this: https://gist.github.com/andrebrait/961cefe730f4a2c41f57911e6... implies there's some pain in getting started with it.

I commented here about that: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31498642

On my Keychron K3 there is a key combination that deactivates the light-pattern-changing key. Now, if I accidentally hit it, it just flashes a couple of times and goes back to the setting I had it on. Check your manual.

This sounds interesting, I popped the key cap off that button and also the print-screen button since I was amassing a sizable collection of accidental desktop screenshots!

Edit: It's not in the K2 manual but there is a shortcut, FN + L + lightbulb key that works to lock it -

https://www.keychron.com/pages/k2-user-manual

https://keychronsupport.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360052...

I've had a K2 for years and that was my only annoyance with the keyboard until now.

Now, it's my ideal keyboard

Ok, I've seen the Keychron K4 and it's the perfect layout for me. I would purchase it immediately solely on that basis, except that the Linux support appears to be very poor which makes me hesitant.

You wouldn't happen to know another wireless keyboard with the same layout as the K4, by any chance? It's also ok if it's missing the arrow keys, I just want a keyboard with the numpad but without the Insert/arrow keys block.

Logitech is a moribund company dribbling out sadly degraded products. For example, their once-respectable wireless mice are now nearly unusable because 2/3 of scroll-wheel movements are ignored.

You know a peripheral company is dead when, as of last year or so, they still didn't have peripherals with USB-C connectors.

I suspect that "use it 'til it dies" is going to be a lot shorter than you expect, with the new Logitech.

This keyboard has USB-C, as do many of Logitech's other products.

Im in this boat. Give me a tkl and I'll buy it.

I hate to just pile onto the other recommendations, but you can get a beautiful ducky with real MX browns for only like $100. They're no-fuss and built great. Probably an extra $20-40 if you want individual RGB lit keys that can do whooshy rainbow effects.

buy-and-use-it-till-you-lose-the-dongle

I've lost every dongle I've ever had ... never again.

You say the receiver will work with any OS, but is that true for their drivers? It's been a lot of years since I wrote off Logitech, but the reason I did was the lack of Linux support for the mouse I had bought.

It would constantly act like there was dust in the sensor (or so I thought) making erratic movements that could sometimes be reduced with a mouse pad. Finally I did some research and found out that without using their proprietary Windows only driver, the mouse would only operate in the lowest dpi setting.

I immediately drove to the store and bought the cheapest corded Kensington mouse they had, which was like $10 and a 1/10th of what that Logitech piece of shit cost. It was like I had a whole new computer, I spent way too long being idly frustrated with my overpriced mouse.

That was and will remain the last Logitech product I buy

Yes. I’m using a couple of Marathon mice (with 3+ year battery life), and a G700 mouse. All of them are working as intended.

G700 carries its settings on board, so all profiles are working completely with any OS. There was no customization software on Linux when I bought it, but that side also improved with Logitech tool and other projects over the years. G710+ has an out of tree driver, but I didn’t compile it due to laziness.

Logitech is the first company to support UVC class for webcams to enable Linux support. Also they’re the only HID company which supports Linux firmware update daemon as far as I know.

So your perception is not completely correct from my vantage point.

Eh, I really like the Logitech wireless dongle. So much more reliable than Bluetooth and it works on the bios screen as well.

Never really cared about swapping switches much and I want my keyboard to be wireless. I’d consider buying this if I didn’t already own the regular mx keys.

The fact that it IS a dongle is the major disadvantage. Most laptops have only one or two USB-B slots and many are moving towards USB-C for everything. Most also have very functional bluetooth built in. It's just not worth a minor improvement in connection quality (which is debatable, reading these comments) to lose the only slot I have in a laptop. I have to unplug my external keyboard in order to use my headset if I'm not using a dock. This was enough to make me spend my own money to replace the logitech mouse I was issued at work.

I have a MX Keys and it works with the dongle and bluetooth, your choice. I have both the mouse and the MX Keys using the dongle connected to my display's USB hub so the mouse & keyboards are always there for the cmputer that gets connected to the USB-C cable. It's uncredibly convenient.

This is my exact reason for going Logitech keyboard and mouse. I have a work Mac and personal PC. With a thunderbolt dock I can use either one at my desk. I don’t have to fiddle with pairing anything, just plug in the computer and the keyboard and mouse show up. If I travel then I just pack my mouse and pair it with my laptop via Bluetooth while away.

*USB-A, the B ones are for devices, i.e. what you typically saw (in the micro variety) on cell phones before UBS-C started happning. The big "original" USB-B ports are still common on printers.

Ah, you're right. I forgot about those old square suckers.

In my setup, the dongle sits in one of the USB ports in the monitor, never to be seen again.

This keyboard works with either Bluetooth or the dongle; expand the "System Requirements" section.

> Most laptops have only one or two USB-B slots and many are moving towards USB-C

Eh, don't buy those models then. Send the market a message.

Having more than 2 USB-A at this point is weird though, as things are moving toward USB-C.

Ideally I would want 4 USB-A and 4 USB-C but I am not delusional enough.

My k860 and MX Master does not need the dongle, although I find I get slightly lower latency with it than with regular bluetooth. I leave it plugged in to my docking station and switch the mouse to bluetooth if I take it to a conference room.

I plug in 3-4 cables on my laptop a day. I don’t see why plugging in a dock is so difficult. Hell all you really need is a USB hub that connects via USB-c. One cable and done.

Then the question to ask is why Logitech STILL doesn't have USB-C dongles?

The ability to combine keyboard and mouse into one connection is a huge selling point, and Bluetooth sucks. But Logitech is merely coasting on its fading brand, not even bothering to update its connectors.

It even connects with other computers [1], note the wildcard for the firmware version in the CVE.

[1]: https://nvd.nist.gov/vuln/detail/CVE-2019-13052#

I’ve found Bluetooth to be much more reliable in the presence of obstructions and interference. Learned this the hard way when I tried to put a computer behind my TV.

This is typically why they include extension cables so you can move the dongle in a more receptive area.

Yes, it's also good that Unifying receiver support multiple devices.

Switches are probably either cherry's low profile switch, or Kailh's version 2 of it's choc low profile switch.

I honestly have no idea why this was posted on HN, there's a ton of other keyboards that have the same specs and features. Sure it's got Logitech's priority dongle, but as you point out, what's here that's not on a 70 dollar gk65.

I think it was posted more as an interesting industry trend. It's acknowledgement of a former niche turning into a real industry from the big name in the space.

Which trend? I'm not sure I'd consider low profile a trend, and logitech has been making mechanical keyboards for years. They've even made other low profile mechanical keyboards.

They made mechanical keyboards in their G brand that target gamers..

This is the first time they make an wireless mechanical keyboard in their "regular" brand..

I don't mind the Logitech Unifying Receiver dongle, but I wish they'd make a USB-C one already.

So true. It's weird that they're stuck to usb-a for so long.

According to Verge it uses Kailh Choc V2 Low Profile Switches: https://kono.store/products/kailh-choc-mx-switches

Also Logitech's propertiary dongle is not necessary, it can use Bluetooth.

https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/24/23137797/logitech-mx-mast...

They’re listing proprietary switches on the linked page: “Graphite MX Mechanical”

Perhaps they’re rebranded generics, can’t say.

Logitech is building their own switches for at least a couple generations now. I don't think they would be "rebranded generics".

I'll be waiting for the reviews, though.

https://www.reviewgeek.com/118706/logitech-mx-mechanical-min...

they look like https://kono.store/products/kailh-choc-mx-switches with standard cherry stems so you can use any keycaps

https://www.reviewgeek.com/p/uploads/2022/05/90799f4d.jpg

If that's actually the case then Logitech made a mistake by not advertising that front and center. Those are solid switches from a well known brand, that's what people want for $150.

I don't think their target audience for this keyboard is people who care about the brand of switches. They are more or less marketing this as a 'premium office keyboard.'

Bluetooth is great, and I use it on two of the three systems I hang my Logitech MX off of, but that dongle works to get the third into the BIOS, which I don't think Bluetooth will get you.

(and I have a mac keyboard stashed in the back of the closet for when I need to boot THAT into recovery mode)

> Also Logitech's propertiary dongle is not necessary, it can use Bluetooth.

I tried Logitech G915 TKL keyboard a while back. One of the dealbreakers was that while connected by Bluetooth, you couldn't use any of the _smart_ features of the keyboard like macros or more advanced backlight options. It may be different with this keyboard, but I definitely wouldn't assume that all of the features are available via Bluetooth, sadly

Glad to hear the r/mk opinion on this. I've been a diehard for Logitech multi-device peripherals since I picked up a Triathlon mouse on sale in 2018 and I just got myself an MX Mini keyboard. For folks who frequently switch between devices it's a godsend. I was glad to see it in mechanical form, but I can't understand why they wouldn't do their due diligence on mechanical keyboard users and their needs.

From the looks of the side profile, this is using low profile mechanical switches, which seem uncommon or at the very least not popular in the mech keyboard community.

I don’t think that they’re targeting the same sort of user as the enthusiast board manufacturers do.

I mean the MX Keys is a popular product outside of mech keyboard circles, this may be positioned as an alternative for those users

> From the looks of the side profile, this is using low profile mechanical switches, which seem uncommon or at the very least not popular in the mech keyboard community.

Where are you getting this from? I can count at least 3 people I know using low profiles. Without doing a poll. Some people want that laptop feel in a desktop board.

Have those people built the keyboard themselves, though? I've been periodically checking the more popular/accessible low-profile keyboards and other than Keychron and Logitech it was difficult to find something available in Europe. Low-profile switches definitely exist, but keyboards are pretty rare. If you add requirements like USB-C and bluetooth, there's really not much choice left (or is there? I'd love to be proven wrong)

Choice does not equal demand. Low profile switches are relatively new. And no, there are a few brands that build them. I would not build a board myself.

I think there isn't adoption to low profile keys because of compatibility and snobs.

I have been using the gaming version of this keyboard (G915) for years and would prefer not going back to high rise keys.

Better ergonomics, looks better, easier to clean, less wobbly keys, smaller chance of breaking a keycap.

> smaller chance of breaking a keycap.

So from a sample size of one, I've never broken a keyboard on a full height key, I've broken 3-4 on laptop butterfly keyboards over the last 20-ish years, and I've broke one on a G915 in one year.

I mean just look at the underside of the logitech keycaps with two thin prongs versus the heavier duty (and redundant points of connection) on the female + connector on a cherry key, I know which I'd bet on.

Logitech Unifying Receiver is basically rebranded, slightly-tweaked bluetooth from what I can tell. I've had a lot of them running in the same room together and not had a problem.

I have a ridiculously priced Topre Realforce, but when friends and family ask for a recommendation or I'm helping them setup a machine I would definitely recommend something like this if they're up for spending a little more. Historically I've been recommending the Logitech K840 in those scenarios. This looks like a wireless upgrade to that.

The Logitech Unifying Receiver uses an nRF24LU1+. They use a Nordic Semiconductor proprietary protocol, "ShockBurst".

https://www.sparkfun.com/datasheets/Wireless/Nordic/nRF24LU1... https://www.nordicsemi.com/Products/nRF24-series

This chip was pretty popular for non-bluetooth keyboard/mouse dongles, not just Logitech.

I found this comparison between that protocol and BLE https://d.lij.uno/misc-nrf24-ble.html it looks like the radios are very similar and can with some limitations be used for both, but the protocols differ

this does not use the old unifying received.. it use their new bolt receiver.. the two are not compatible with each other..

i don't know about the Unifying but the bolt is certainly based on Bluetooth, BT 5.0 Low Power to be exact..

> tied to Logitech's wireless dongles (which are notoriously bad about both causing and being super-sensitive to 2.4Ghz-spectrum interference).

I have the opposite experience across probably half a dozen Logitech devices over the last decade or so. The dongle is so much more reliable and far lower latency than bluetooth. I'd take Logitech unified receiver over bluetooth all day long. I haven't had nearly as much luck with other 2.4Ghz receivers. I'm also using a RK Royal Kludge wireless keyboard and it's very particular about where the receiver is plugged in and distance from the keyboard.

Can you point me to multi device, Bluetooth enabled (and reliable) keyboards in $60 range?

I would see myself buying one of those if it was a bit cheaper (they will drop in price for sure) and if I didn't have enough keyboards.

Dierya makes an assortment of multi-device (switch devices via a key combo) BT keyboards that are pretty close to your price range. The DK63 was my first mechanical when I fell ass backwards into the hobby.

> I don't get who this product is for, other than maybe someone who has heard mechanical keyboards are cool but is daunted by doing any research into what mechanical keyboard options exist out there.

I agree. For this price you could buy a great keyboard from Vortex with swap able keys .. which click the way you like it.

> someone who has heard mechanical keyboards are cool but is daunted by doing any research into what mechanical keyboard options exist out there.

honestly I was into mechanical keyboards for a while, I put together a few kits, I bought into group buys on individual hand-crafted keys, group buys on keysets, and bought a HHKB to try topre switches. After a while I just stopped, because the scene is incredibly disorganized and constantly shifting (e.g., I was into mechanical keyboards for a year or two and /r/budgetkeebs didn't even exist, but lots of my friends still know me as the keyboard enthusiast guy so they always ask me where to get a keyboard). The barrier to entry is very substantial. There are a lot of people who would like a nicer keyboard who don't want to have to deal with that nonsense.

Take that whole concept, and now think about webcams. People have money to burn and spent a lot of time on video chat because of Covid. How many people sat around and did hours and hours of research to buy the perfect webcam? How many people heard the Logitech 1080p webcam (the C920x I think?) was pretty good, bought it, plugged it in, had a good product and literally never thought about it again? I'm willing to bet that second group is easily ten times as large as the first group. And alllllllll those people see "Logitech" and all they think is "it's a peripheral that will probably work well that I don't have to think about". That's an enormous market.

anyway I can't figure out if the MX means the switches have Cherry MX stems or not, which is annoying. Not something I would buy, but definitely a frustratingly underserved market segment.

The MX Master 3 mouse is far and away the best mouse I've ever used. It switches easily between computers, feels great, has great functionality and most importantly, doesn't leave my wrist hurting at the end of the day (which I what brought me to try it out in the first place).

Yes, I can look into other options, but this is targeting people like me, who are already in the logitech ecosystem and are happy there. I can try my luck with another brand that I may or may not like more, or I can go with this and hope that it's of similar quality to other devices in the MX sub-brand.

Man if you like the MX Master 3 you would have loved the original Performance MX. They've made this mouse worse with every iteration. The first one was frickin awesome but when it eventually wore out I've slowly iterated through the MX Master series (1, 2 and 3 now). Honestly if I could get the hyperscroll on someone elses wired mouse (Mionix Noas Pro w/ hyperscroll wheel would be a dream) I would jump in a heartbeat but I just can't quit that damned scroll wheel.

Unlike their fantastic pointing devices, the keyboards are always lacking some killer feature. MX Ergo, MX Master, MX Anywhere, MX Vertical all have something that basically no other brand offers.

What have the MX keyboards offered? This is a generic mech, another one had a scroll wheel... where's the no fuss tenting split with thumb features beating function and price point of the an Ergodox or Keyboardio?

I don't know about mx keyboards, but I love their ergo keyboard:

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k860-split...

Between that and the MX ergo, bye bye wrist pain.

I don't doubt it's a great product that offers real relief to users, but it's not their "MX" brand and it's not a serious departure from the average keyboard. You can get the same style of split-ish keyboard from Microsoft and others for many years now.

Last I checked, there were no mechanical keyboard using dongles. Way better than bluetooth.

I have a Nuphy keyboard on order that supports a 2.4GHz USB dongle in addition to Bluetooth. It was one of the main reasons I went with that brand.

I have a CIY Tester68 which comes with a 2.4GHz receiver, and also features Bluetooth 5.0. The hot-swappable board (no switches and keycaps) cost under $15 and powered by 2 x AAA.

This keyboard already exists for the gamer market, it's called the G915, it uses a dongle.

My cheap Epomaker TH80 was $80 when I bought it, and supports USB-C, up to 3 bluetooth devices, _and_ a 2.4Ghz dongle connection. There are other reasons it might not be for everyone, but it's got a 2.4Ghz dongle, and those are actually pretty common in even the lower end of the mechanical keyboard market these days.

It looks like they are just using low-profile mx switches. These are not proprietary, just uncommon.

It is annoying that seemingly nobody in the entirety of Logitech could be bothered to spend 3 minutes scrolling /r/mechanicalkeyboards to see how mkb customers describe their own keyboard and realize that they should put the proper switch name directly in the product description... but that is more or less what I have come to expect from a BigCorp.

This submission is about a keyboard but I’m learning a lot more about keyboard enthusiasts.

> notoriously bad about both causing and being super-sensitive to 2.4Ghz-spectrum interference

Can someone speak to this?

I'm asking because I have a Nintendo Switch and I play games with split Joy Cons in docked mode, my right cons have been absurdly unreliable and I'm trying to understand the reason. I've had 4 pairs but they all suffer and the left never does. The console is to my left and my laptop with the Logitech dongle is to my right so I wonder if that has something to do with it. Turning off my mouse seems to help but maybe I should be removing the dongle too...

I've used Logitech peripherals all my life and I stand by them. Specific to the keyboard, here's my experience of switching over to mechanical. I asked around, and people did recommend building my own, which I was cool with, but my needs were pretty specific and informed by my old keyboard (that I had used for 10+ years and had gotten accustomed to). I wanted a very specific layout: US International, the ISO variant (with the square(ish) Enter), but the 104-key, without the extra key next to the left Shift. It's not very common, but it's the one I use, and not many manufacturers use it (especially custom mechanical boards). I also wanted media keys and some programmable keys for macros.

After looking around for a while, I mostly found 10-key-less custom boards, very few full keyboards and none were the exact layout I wanted (they were either ANSI with the small Enter, which I hate, or 105-key ISO, which I would have also hated). Not to mention lacking media keys and/or programmable keys. Then I found my current keyboard. The Logitech G915 Lightspeed.

It is EXACTLY what I wanted. Has the correct layout, has media keys, has programmable keys, it's dual wireless (Bluetooth and their Lightspeed connector, which is definitely more reliable than Bluetooth, I have to tell you; also it works before booting into Windows, which Bluetooth does not, so I don't have to use a different keyboard for BIOS), the battery lasts FOREVER (3-4 weeks, including me turning on the lighting at night) and is replaceable. It uses Kailh Low-profile switches, which although uncommon, can be found online, and, while not hotswappable, can be replaced in the event of failure.

The MRSP is 250 EUR, I got it for 150 new, which is a steal. With that money I basically bought myself a keyboard which I can conceivably use for the next 20 years, no problem (factoring in inevitable key repairs and battery replacement(s), of course).

Don't know about you, but I'm happy with my choice and purchase and would wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone. In fact, after using it for a while, I also purchased the G502 Wireless mouse, which I also love.

So, yeah, for some people, Logitech peripherals are exactly what they need.

Holy effin' moly I am not alone... square Enter, no stupid shift slashes placement. It took me forever to find something (actually didn't - Roccat I have have this idiotic tiny Enter, but good volume control knob which is super useful too), and I don't even want bluetooth since I never move it around.

Logitech G915 looks great if it just used the cable, it seems to have volume knob/roller too. Too bad there isn't wired cheaper equivalent, at least I don't see any.

You're in luck, friend. G815. Exactly the same keyboard, but wired. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find pictures of it with this exact layout (seems to have the 105-key layout).

That having been said, more good news. My model came with the same pictures, but it was the 104-key layout, so it might vary by region, I guess. Look around and see what you can find at your local retailers.

Even more good news, even if you can't find the G815, the G915 DOES work by wire, if you really want to. You can hook it up via micro USB. Even comes with a cable.

Also, might I suggest you at least try a wireless keyboard. OK, so you don't move it. Valid argument. Neither do I, but the lack of one MORE cable on my desk, plus the ability to just yank it off the desk for cleaning, with having to unplug it, well worth it.

What layout has shift-slashes? I'm using a UK keymap with a 105-key ISO keyboard. Slashes are the keys one in from left/right shift. Shift-\ = | and Shift-/ = ?. Is there some common layout where these are reversed as to which is the shift key?

ISO has shift slashes, but no in all variants. Here's the G915 in UK International layout:

https://resource.logitechg.com/w_692,c_limit,q_auto,f_auto,d...

And here it is in the US International layout:

https://resource.logitechg.com/w_692,c_limit,q_auto,f_auto,d...

As you can see, in the US variant, it does not have the shift slashes, so it's 104 keys instead of 105. They're not reversed, it's just that the left shift is full size and the slash is near the Enter. From what I've seen, though, it's not merely a US/UK difference, as some manufacturers will keep the left Shift slash button as a double, just to respect the 105-key standard. To me, and apparently @saiya-jin, this is very annoying.

Before I decided on this keyboard, I shopped around found WASD. They do customizable prebuilt mechanical keyboards. Pretty nice. They also have the ISO layout variant, as well as the ANSI variant. Even nicer. But check out these comparison shots I took from their configurator:

https://imgur.com/a/JUZBJwB

See how they just keep the left Shift slash as a double, despite it already being next to Enter on the US variant? That would have driven me crazy.

I'm 99% sure this is just they're G915 wireless keyboard, just without a volume wheel and the aesthetics appealing to the gamer crowd. Also have you have a poor experience withe the 2.4ghz tech they label as "lightspeed"? I use it right next to a wifi router and I haven't noticed any issues.

this use the bolt receiver not the lightspeed receiver..

lightspeed received is one devide per dongle because it is supposed to be lower latency..

the bolt is the replacement for their old unifying receiver, it support multiple devices with the same dongle and it is based on bt low power..

> and the fact that it's Logitech, honestly, and will bounce off

What's wrong with Logitech?

I see a lot of praise for the MX Master mouse and keyboard, I use the mouse myself and it's been great.

We are not the target audience for this product. They are trying to target Apple kind of market.

> I don't get who this product is for, other than maybe someone who has heard mechanical keyboards are cool but is daunted by doing any research into what mechanical keyboard options exist out there.

Why is the mechanical keyboard community so elitist? I don't have time to research a keyboard made by some mom and pop keyboard operation when I already know it won't work (easily if at all) with my setup.

With Logitech's unifying receiver, I can have a completely wireless setup with a single keyboard and two mice (two different kinds that I switch between for wrist health and comfort) that I can seamlessly use with my work computer and home computer and the same monitor. So no wires, one monitor, one keyboard and mice setup, and two computers (of different OSs) that I switch between with a simple keyboard shortcut.

I'm not into the mechanical keyboard world because I value ergonomics and silence over nerding out over an overly clacky keyboard, but since this keyboard uses Logitech's unifying receiver, it has value. (Edit: well, it looks like this doesn't use the existing unifying receiver, which is definitely a valid complaint.)

The issues with the unifying receiver and interference are not specific to the receiver. As far as I understand, it's interference from USB 3.x ports that affects any 2.5 GHz wireless receiver.

> Why is the mechanical keyboard community so elitist?

I think this is a fundamental element of modern 'advertising on social media'. This and 'scarcity' of product 'drops'.

My teenage son was sucked into this nonsense about two+ years ago. The PCBs for the keyboards (purchased from multiple vendors) are terribly-supported Chinese garbage. Official tech support is junk, and if you ask a keyboard community, it's taken as an insult to the community.

And before anyone says, "bad assembly" -- my son is certified from a three-day long Haako micro-soldering course, so he knows how to solder.

Yea, I'm seeing the mechanical keyboards pop up a lot on social media and YouTube channels. It's a rage right now for sure. Yes, they can look cool, but I don't see how that justifies the price, behavior of the community, and lack of features. I guess it's a fad as much as anything else.

I personally feel my ergonomic Logitech setup looks quite sleek. But I guess it's too boring.

And I'll be honest, part of my negative opinion surrounding mechanical keyboards is from this remote work era, where it seems like all the mechanical keyboard developers are in a competition to have the loudest keyboard. Some of the mechanical keyboards make me feel I'm being assaulted over Zoom (or whatever video conferencing tool) by the loudness of their clacks. It can be extremely distracting. I can't imagine what it's like to work in an office with people with those keyboards.

> the page has no real information about the switches at all

It does, though. They are all MX switches, and they have 3 different ones: tactile silent, clicky, and linear. Each one of them has a short basic description.

Reading the engadget review[0] of it, it seems like the naming was fairly accurate. The author points out that "linear" is an equivalent of MX Red, and "clicky" is an equivalent of MX Blue. The "tactile silent" switches weren't explicitly called out in the review, but it sounds like they would be the closest to MX Brown.

0. https://www.engadget.com/logitech-mx-mechanical-hands-on-gam...

> Logitech's wireless dongles (which are notoriously bad about both causing and being super-sensitive to 2.4Ghz-spectrum interference).

Really? Been using Logitech devices for years and never had any issue with interference.

I have had issues with the unifying receiver when I've plugged it into the back of a PC in the midst of a tangle of wires, but generally it's more reliable and lower latency than bluetooth

>which is a bit like selling a computer by showing you a picture of the case and telling you it has "a CPU".

This seems to be the standard Apple strategy, which has worked wonders.

> I don't get who this product is for

Mechanical keyboards are filtering down into corporate IT purchasing after they've entered the consumer mainstream (gaming keyboards and the like), particularly in smaller / "hip" companies that decide to buy smaller amounts of premium hardware instead of trying to shave pennies off unit costs in volume (Fortune 500 etc.). Logitech's retail reach makes this a much simpler decision for those purchasing agents, who will likely be able to purchase these through pre-existing channels, compared to smaller outlets offering specialized keyboards.

> Enthusiasts will see the non-standard switches and lack of hotswap, and the fact that it's Logitech, honestly, and will bounce off.

> Non-enthusiasts will see that this Logitech keyboard is $150, but doesn't offer all that much more than their cheaper wireless multi-device keyboards, and will just buy a cheaper non-mech option.

If you find yourself in this bucket, check out Keychron. They make mechanical and optical hot swappable keyboards that are amazingly durable, multi-device, multi-platform, and cheap. The only bother you (sometimes) have to put up with is batch ordering.

> with proprietary switches

MX is a type of switch, so from the name, I'm guessing it uses MX style switches (the most popular style of switch). Specifically MX describes the shape of the connectors on the switch. This means the keyboard will be compatible with aftermarket key caps, which are very popular.

EDIT: While the switches do look like MX switches to me, Logitech is also using MX as branding to describe mice, non-mech keyboards etc. This is confusing for someone who knows mechanical keyboards.

Except that their entire pro line is called MX and has been before this. Their mouse is MX master.

I have maybe too many keyboards.

I've scratch-built keyboards from disparate parts. I've put kits together. I've flashed keyboard firmware. I know how to solder and de-solder.

I'm not super plugged-in to the community but I do consider myself an enthusiast.

I don't care about hot swappable keys; soldering is easy enough. I don't really care who makes the switches as long as they feel good enough. I would prefer standard stems but I know I'm not really likely to swap any keycaps.

I'll probably buy one of these when I get sick of my current work keyboard's lack of a numpad.

> the page has no real information about the switches at all

It looks like it's their short travel switches, which are found on the G915. I own, but do not use (on account of my newer custom keeb), a G915. The switches are a noticeable step above stock Cherrys, with significantly less scratchiness (that probably has to do with the short travel), but obviously pale in comparison to "the rest." The G915 also has really solid build quality, although I'm not sure if that translates to this model.

Despite my positive comments about the keyboard family, I strongly recommend looking into a custom keyboard because you'll find a much closer match, for what you're looking for, than what OEM keyboards will ever yield. You can get a GMMK 2, with lubed switches, for $149 [1] (then spend another $20 on cheap keycaps on Amazon). The switches are hot-swappable, so you will get many years of use from it. GMMK 2 is extremely entry-level, but will blow almost any OEM keyboard clear out of the water (including this one).

You can also get keyboard switch samplers to help you choose which switch works best for you.

[1]: https://www.pcgamingrace.com/pages/gmmk-2-configurator?color...

This is a known business idea right? Offer a watered down version of something that is cool but also uncertain, with the reassurance of a brand name so you know you’ll at least not regret it. Like Starbucks.

“No one ever got fired for buying IBM/Microsoft/<insert here>”

Loss avoidance at its finest.

Why are hot-swappable switches so important?

> I don't get who this product is for, other than maybe someone who has heard mechanical keyboards are cool but is daunted by doing any research into what mechanical keyboard options exist out there.

I like mechanical keyboards but I just don't care. What research do I possibly need to do?

I'm not sure if you know this -- I certainly didn't until recently -- but the mechanical keyboard community uses the term "hot-swappable" to mean "user-swappable". They may well also be hot-swappable, as in changeable while powered on, but that's not the intention of the term.

>This looks like a non-hotswappable board with proprietary switches, and it's still tied to Logitech's wireless dongles (which are notoriously bad about both causing and being super-sensitive to 2.4Ghz-spectrum interference).

I like my logitech mouse, but for the desktop I built, I had to buy and extension USB cable to keep the dongle far enough away from the machine to get the mouse to work without glitching.

Matches my other Logitech peripherals. Sadly that's major reason. And dongle + bluetooth = easy switching between multiple systems.

I want a mechanical keyboard with a unifying dongle. I have three laptops I switch between. I can plug the dongle into my monitor or dock and I never have to worry about switching inputs.

These are low profile mechanical keys. Looks like the same or similar to G815/G915. Which can be wired btw.

> it's still tied to Logitech's wireless dongles

"Easily pair via Bluetooth® Low Energy or the included Logi Bolt USB Receiver..."

Logitech is no longer the great company it used to be, so I have decided to no longer purchase their products. I purchased a G Pro X Wireless Headset less than 2 years ago, and I'm already on my second warrranty replacement (3 total headsets.) Multiple parts on it seem designed to fail, and all of mine have failed in the same way. They use laughably small screws to connect the band to the arms that hold the earcups and they just snap after a few months. It's very sad to see so much e-waste created just to increase profits by a few cents per unit.

I've been using wired mechanical keyboards for about 15 years so I can't recommend a wireless model, but Ducky makes great, reliable, entry-level mechanical keyboards. I've mostly used Ducky and I've never had one of their keyboards fail in any way. Glorious also makes great keyboards, but based on my perception of the build quality, I have a feeling their cheaper keyboards might not last as long. I'm currently using a Glorious GMMK Pro and it feels very solid.

JBL bluetooth headphones have "firmware feature" which lowers volume of left earpiece slowly over time. Happened on multiple different products, bought by schoolmates of mine and also on 3 different units of one product for me.

Pioneer SE-M531, M521 .... have similar problem with screws as you state.

logitech - i absolutely LOVE MX series of products they are innovative and provide absolutelly best functionality, keys look nice not really my style but they look nice as a unit.

so i am sad to see they jumped on mechanical keyboard bandwagon, i hate mechanical keyboards with all my life. always clicking, long travel, slow typing....

long travel, slow? this keyboard looks low profile. probably don't have to press the keys as far. and the amount of force required to activate the key is less than non mechanical iirc. they usually tell you how many grams of force are needed

It feels weird to me, to judge a keyboard company by their headset. Those have always had fragile plastic hinges with the earcups falling off, that is not a new development. Their mice and keyboards are pretty good, and the G Pro Wireless is one of the best in the game right now.

They're mostly a computer peripheral company. They've always made a ton of products like keyboards, mice, webcams, speakers, headsets, microphones, game controllers, etc. I've only experienced issues with fragile plastic parts in sub $80 headsets. You definitely shouldn't be seeing such a critical design flaw on a $200 headset.

The quality of their products used to be pretty good, but it's becomming obvious that they're starting to cut too many corners to reduce costs. I have an old pair of logitech speakers that have lasted me well over 10 years.

The G Pro Wireless has some major issues as well. They build up static electricity during use and this causes a single click to register as multiple clicks, and causes a continuous click to stop registering when you're holding the button down. This is terrible for a gaming mouse. I switched to a Razer Viper Ultimate and haven't had any issues.

Are you sure the issue is static electricity? Despite being essentially some of the best mice on the market, the switches they use are a bit sub-standard. Over time, they tend to develop double-click issues. (Where a single click registers as two)

I had a G305 that did this, and given the low price of the mouse I gave up going through the work to desolder and replace the switches.

I use their thumb track balls and this is a regular failure mode for me

I'm not 100% positive, but it seems to be. Blowing into the front of the mouse would fix it for a few minutes. I saw a bunch of threads about it the last time I looked into it.

If I recall correctly, there were firmware updates that claimed to fix the same or similar issues, but those had no effect for me.

Latest Logitech mouse I got is giving me issues less than a month in. Pretty grim

It's a hit or miss. They have the fantastic MX Master line of mouse products, for example, or some very good webcams, but not everything is so great, like your headsets. I prefer to check the product more than the company.

Very weird, I've had the opposite experience. I used to think their hardware products were complete crap, but now I own a G Pro mouse, keyboard, and headset from them (they've definitely stepped it up in the design game at the very least.)

Changed my headset to the G Pro X Wireless after having broken 2 SteelSeries Arctis Pro Wireless headsets, which for some reason decided to use a single plastic piece for the hinge to hold the earcups on (on a $350 headset!).

The G Pro X Wireless felt awesome and first and seemed like a great headset, but my mind changed when I ran into issues and saw how many others had issues as well. If they made it a bit more durable I would say it would be almost perfect.

I had an SteelSeries Arctis Pro Wireless as well before the Logitech one, and I ran into the same issue! Huge disappointment after having loved the SteelSeries Siberia wired headset

I have a love/hate relationship with the G Pro X Wireless. I've bought 6 of them so far, 3 of which have died in some way (in all cases, the right or left click has stopped functioning). They're fantastic in every other way - I love the feel, the response time is great, the weight is great. I'll continue buying them for those reasons, at least until a competitor has all of the above plus my following wishlist:

Better build quality (a mouse should last more than 1-2 years, which is the average life I get out of them).

USB-C receiver. I hate having to use a dongle just for the USB-A receiver.

Better drivers. GHub is pretty bloaty.

I don't know if it works for their wireless mice, but it does show up under the G Pro X wireless mouse.

https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/360059428653-Down...

Need to select Windows 10.

"Onboard Memory Manager"

Can set profiles, basic macros (I have my G502's "sniper" button set to "T" for PTT audio, though I used to use "F24" for this case as well), LED.

Does not need to install. Does not need to run in the background. Can read existing profiles on the mouse's onboard memory.

For me, this program was the deciding factor of choosing a few Logitech G___ mice over any other mouse.

I've never seen a "gaming" headset that is any good.

You will always be better off buying headsets from companies that focus on headsets and headphones, rather than from companies that see headsets as a cheap filler item to sell to people who bought their mice and keyboards and want the blinky lights to sync up.

The benefit of a gaming headset over bluetooth is reduced latency. Unless things have changed recently, the difference is very noticable.

The HyperX Cloud (wired) is actually a pretty good headset.

For wired headsets I would probably stay away from "gaming" products indeed, but it was surprisingly difficult to find a good wireless one.

At the risk of turning this into a product recommendation thread, I am very happy with my Astro A50. Hits all the right notes for a wireless headset to wear all day at home - from video chats over coding and gaming to laundry. Doesn't even have blinky lights.

For wireless, Bluetooth Headset profile (for bidirectional audio, so mic) only supports mono audio, and at pretty low bitrate too. For me that makes it completely unusable in gaming, where I want both mic, and stereo (positional) audio.

My SteelSeries Arctis 7 headset is awesome. Battery lasts all day, sound quality isnt terrible, no lights other than the microphone mute. USB interface, it presents a "game" and "voice" output to the system and you can control the volume for each with a wheel on the headset.

Same experience here for the last 4 years. Hardware mute with the on-boom LED has been extremely useful.

I will be very sad the day my Arctis 7 dies, as I've learn from friends that the newer iteration has a different wireless receiver which, anecdotally, seems to be far less powerful in terms of range.

Bizarre how a rechargeable keyboard without an intentionally user serviceable battery has a specs section titled "sustainability".

Political lip service is a key facet of modern marketing

Also, their switches aren't hot swappable so if one stops working (or even becomes just a bit finicky) consumers are likely to throw the whole thing out.

Note that this appears to use the Logi Bolt receiver, not the typical Unifying receiver - so you might end up with 2 dongles (a unifying and a bolt)

Be aware that Logitech now has 3 wireless technologies:

Unifying - the original 2.4 wireless, supports up to 6 devices. Symbol - Orange square with black or white six-pointed snowflake

Logi Bolt - the new encrypted version of their unifying controller, also supports up to 6 devices, uses Bluetooth Low Energy and FIPS. It is a new dongle. Symbol - Yellow hexagon with black bolt

LightSpeed Wireless - high performance low latency wireless for gaming, supports only one device per dongle, uses much more energy.

Available USB ports on laptops can become an issue if you mix them, happened to me!

I really wish their LightSpeed devices also supported bluetooth. If I take my mouse with me on the road it's really annoying having to bring a dongle and the adapter.

I use a G603 LightSpeed which also supports operation via Bluetooth. It actually ends up being pretty handy, as I can switch the mouse between my desktop and laptop just by pressing a button.

Beware though, that they have an issue with scroll wheels breaking after several months of use (a plastic axle connecting the wheel to the rotary encoder breaks off). After mine broke the second time after warranty repair, ended up ordering a replacement part myself and also modded the scrolling mechanism to have less resistance.

For anyone thinking of using this with Linux, there are a couple of issues I've encountered with Logi Bolt with my MX Keys Mini.

Getting the keyboard and a Logi Bolt USB receiver to pair on Linux was a huge PITA. (Why do I have to trust and install an app for this anyway?) In the end I resorted to plugging the receiver into a mac and pairing it that way. Even that hasn't worked out so well though, since I ended up with messed up modifier keys when I transferred the receiver back to a Linux machine (the modifier keys are still mapped as a mac keyboard).

Another issue I have is that I can't suspend the Linux machine if I leave the USB receiver plugged in. If I do, the machine will wake back up almost immediately after suspending. Kinda annoying to have to always unplug it...especially since if you buying a Logi Bolt device it's probably because you want to be able to switch it between multiple machines without having to constantly plug/unplug thing to USB...

In case you still use the keyboard, you may be able to solve the wakeup issue by preventing the wakeup in /proc/acpi/wakeup - see (1). When I used a Surface Go 2, this was how I prevented the keyboard case from waking it up and draining the battery.

1: https://ubuntu-mate.community/t/power-management-acpi-wake-u...

As it happens, a kernel update appears to have fixed the issue, but thank you for this tip.

> Compatibility: Logi Bolt USB Receiver[^11]

> [^11] Not compatible with Logitech Unifying USB Receiver technology

So you'll have to throw away your existing MX Anywhere 3 and repurchase this seemingly vaporware "for Business" variant[1] if you want a single transceiver for mouse+keyboard? Hmm...

[1] https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/mice/mx-anywhere-3-f...

The decision to go from Unifying to Bolt is mystifying to me, since there's seemingly no user-facing benefit. It makes upgrading less enticing -- they should have either rolled out a new set of peripherals that all supported Bolt at the same time, or they should have rolled out an interim generation that supported both Bolt and Unifying.

At first look, the Bolt stuff is supposed to be more secure, with better encryption or the data transferred and maybe with narrower band to allow more concurrent users in high density offices. I don't know how much it is correct and how much it is marketing, this is what I read.

The Unifying used same frequency as BT but a diferent protocol.. The Bolt is basically BT 5.0 Low Power..

Isn't the Unifying encryption broken beyond recovery or something? Either way, more secure connections for something as critical as input data are very welcome IMHO.

That being said, for office work I'm satisfied with Bluetooth. No extra dongles is a huge plus, too.

Also, no USB-C? I now need to plug my Unifying Receivers into a dongle to go into my M1 machine. Yuck.

I bet this is why the release a MX Master 3S as an minor update to the previous MX Master 3.. that only have bolt option..

I still have an MX Master 2 and i am considering getting this as a bundle, MX Master 3S and MX Mechanical..

For keyboard i currently have their G512 gamer and it bother me that it use a separated software from the MX Master 2, the keyboard use the Logitech G Hub while the mouse use the Logitech Options..

Can someone explain to me the attraction of wireless keyboards? I get wireless mice: they're much easier to reposition - but my keyboard stays in one place all the time. Do other people move their keyboards repeatedly?

Some people put them in their lap and use a hard mouse-mat, some like the aesthetics.

Some people carry external keyboard and mouse with their laptop for when they dock.

There are a multitude of reasons, but for something fixed to a desktop I don't find many upsides personally.

In my opinion it's an aesthetic thing, to not have any wires snaking round back of the desk to the computer.

I'd argue that when you're doing it properly, the cable is responsible for at least 50% of the aesthetic of any nice keyboard setup.

Going wireless would be considerably less visually interesting than what you can do with a nice, attractive cable. (but I'll concede that wireless is heaps better than using the ugly/boring/fragile thin black cables that typically get bundled in with keyboards at no additional cost)

1) less wires 2) offices where you don't have set desks 3) easily swapping between computers without a kvm

Isn't it easier to unplug and plug the cable into a different computer rather than messing with Bluetooth settings until it connects?

Edit: Never mind, it looks like the keyboard can connect to multiple devices at a time. That's really cool.

If you have a large, full size keyboard that is already taking up a large amount of space on your desk, and you have a large desk surface, then I agree the wireless keyboard doesn't seem like huge benefit.

I've had big and small keyboards. With smaller one, I find myself setting aside to make more room on desk on ad-hoc basis, since my desk is rather small.

Also, having a wire sticking out of small keyboard perceptibly creates more visual clutter. Could just be me ;-)

I'm familiar with the use case for this. I don't want to use the same keyboard for work (typing) all day that I'd use for gaming after work. I also don't want TWO wired keyboards. So if I can have a wireless gaming keyboard that I set off out of the way during work, and then can push my main keyboard (wired ergonomic membrane) out of the way and use the gaming keyboard (wireless mechanical), I have the ideal input device for each use case.

(If the Microsoft Ergonomic keyboard came in wireless, I'd get one - one less wire making it sub-optimal when I'm ready to swap keyboards.)

The Microsoft sculpt keyboard is their wireless ergo model

Yes, I used it for a while. I have a strong preference for full-depth keys over chiclet.

The problem is that those keyboards are bound to their receiver, so if the receiver dies (which happens more often than not), the keyboard is useless.

Yes.

1) I switch between a mac (work) and windows (leisure/gaming) and thus switch between a mac wireless keyboard and a mechanical windows one. I move one to the side so the desk doesn't get cluttered.

2) Desktop cords depending on what computer I'm using are a pain to route properly.

I just use one of these: https://www.rosewill.com/rosewill-rcus-17003-2-x-usb-type-b-...

Same! But really just for headset/mouse. The keyboard layout for MacOS and Win suck to use on the same keyboard.

It's just a lot more freedom with standing desks? The wire is messy and dangerous if tripped over.

I work and game from my couch projected to my tv.

> Do other people move their keyboards repeatedly?

No, but I move my laptop repeatedly.

Easy peasy, I don't want to have cables cluttering my desk and am willing to pay a premium for any device that comes in a wireless format.

Yes, that's the main use case. I rearrange my desk depending on what I do, and going wireless makes that process much easier. Connecting a computer to my living room TV is also much easier, as I can easily use it from the couch.

I have my keyboard connected to two computers from working from home. I have my work Mac running connected to my primary monitor and my personal computer connected to my secondary monitor because I've ran out of usb ports on my Mac. The wireless dongle + Bluetooth feature lets me have the keyboard connected to both without needing a KVM setup.

The laptop also moves, and I take the wireless keyboard with me when in the office. That way I can use a real keyboard in both locations - my employer does provide the wired Apple keyboards in office, but I'm not a fan.

I am really surprised by the benefit being switching between machines. For me switching bluetooth devices always has been much harder than just plugging a cable into a different machine. Is the dongle making this easier? Don't you still have to switch what machine the dongle is plugged into?

The keyboard stays paired to one machine over bluetooth, and the other via a dongle (which appears to that computer as just a regular usb keyboard). The dongle is some proprietary protocol over 2.4ghz, it's not bluetooth. I've heard some people in this thread mention that makes it susceptible to interference from places crowded with wifi devices, but for me at least it's been always reliable.

The dongle is instant on. Bluetooth wake up is fast (compared to repairing, or having to disconnect one device to connect another, which I guess is your experience you're comparing to?). So changing to the machine with the dongle in it is instant, the one with bluetooth connection ~1s.

The way I do it does mean the setup only works for n=2 devices, but also reading the thread there seems to be some multi-machine feature in the app if you use that too.

Meanwhile using USB cables to switch means crawling under my desk or having multiple cables cluttering my desk.

More use case:

- I play games using a separate, even smaller, keyboard. Easy to pick up my wireless work+everything else kb and toss it somewhere out of the way

- Sometimes I like to recline my chair way back and continue typing with the keyboard on my lap

I have my computer plugged to my bedroom TV. I sit on an office chair 5 feet away and have a keyboard and trackpad sitting on a lap desk. I love this setup and it requires wireless peripherals.

I get your point but really there’s no downside to them. I switch batteries once a year and for the rest they are 100% as reliable as a wired one.

Even if I use a wireless feature (switching the keyboard to another computer, typing while farther away from my desk) only once a year I still win out.

In my use case, a single Bluetooth keyboard paired with multiple computers is a huge convenience; I've got a work Macbook, a personal Macbook, and a personal desktop. I can just press a couple of buttons on my Keychron and move it from one device to another within a couple of seconds, and my monitor will (normally) always pick the right input to use as well.

Wires get dusty, it's one less thing to worry about for me.

What I don't like about the MX keyboards is that they don't have an IBM compatibility mode. For example, the pause key is Start+Fn+B. So the familiar break combination in Visual Studio CTRL+Pause is CTRL+Start+Fn+B. The Fn key is on the left, so it requires two-handed operation. Some key combinations can not be reached at all, not even as a macro. The macro facility (progammable key) is near useless anyway.

fwiw this has more to do with keyboard layout and pcb programming than the switches - my 'tex shinobi' board has a dedicated Pause key (and more).

they meant "Logitech MX" not "Cherry MX"

While this is a workaround rather a solution, I use sharpkeys (https://www.randyrants.com/category/sharpkeys/) to reprogram keys I don't use as much.

Eg caps lock -> delete, num lock and scroll lock -> volume down/up, paragraph key -> play/pause (I'm on SE layout). Works very well for me.

Also no Menu key (in the place were they have the Fn key), which I use all the time on Windows. The combined Windows/Mac keycap labels are unfortunate as well (unless you frequently switch your keyboard between both systems I guess), seems like a cheap cost-cutting measure instead of offering two models or exchangeable keycaps.

Am I the only one that likes the _idea_ of customizable keyboards, but just can't stand how the mechanical keyboarsd feel?

I wish the customization options and custom keycaps, etc. would trickle to down to the non-mechanical market.

I understand that's not where the money (probably) is, but I actively dislike the noise and physical feeling of mechanical keyboards, but would _love_ to be able to build and customize one.

I want a low-profile keys, scissor switches, but with cute colorways and in layout that doesn't make my wrists feel like they'll explode after 30 minutes.

They make low-profile mechanicals that feel and sound much different than the full profile versions you're probably thinking of. I have one of these, it's quiet enough for work and feels great with the banana switches I threw in it: https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k3-wireless-mecha...

There are plenty of options, however they do require at least some time and money investment.

With low-profile switches, you can have switches that are as light or heavy as you want. I guess the travel distance is what makes the feeling the most different from scissor switches.

I'm alternating between two radically different keyboards and a semi limited budget: a GMMK Pro with extremely silent heavy tactile switches (Boba U4s) and high profile keycaps, and a Ferris Sweep, split columnar ergo with Low profile switches (Choc burned orange so still heavy tactile but that's my preference).

Both are more quiet than an standard plastic rubber dome keyboard. I can hear the springs in the low profile one but it is apparently easy enough to mod, it's just not worth it to me as I don't bother my colleagues and I'm not bothered by it myself.

It seems like a lot of work is needed to emulate scissor switches but it may be worth it. Depending on your area, you might find someone willing to lend/send you a keychron low profile to try out.

I guess most people who enjoy scissor switches are content with what is already on offer.

> I wish the customization options and custom keycaps, etc. would trickle to down to the non-mechanical market.

Just get a 3D printer and all your cheap, completely custom keycap desires will be answered...

https://github.com/riskable/keycap_playground

I'm typing on Keycap Playground keycaps right now:

https://gfycat.com/costlyglaringhyracotherium

Also, that gif is of my completely custom analog hall effect keyboard that uses 3D printed Void Switches which you can also customize to your heart's delight:

https://github.com/riskable/void_switch

(Make them feel however you like since the design is parametric and you can customize the feel by changing the total travel, distance between the magnets at rest, etc)

For reference, I'm spending most of my time working on the firmware so that I can start selling some (though "the plan" is mostly surrounding selling PCBs/kits and "print it your damned self!" hehe). Here's the numpad I've been working on lately (to develop the firmware):

https://gfycat.com/softfixedfanworms

The mini looks pretty much identical to my Keychron K3. Not sure if that’s good or bad; it’s one of my favorite keyboards and cost me 1/3 of what they are asking.

I will never go back to fixed unsplit keyboard again. I much prefer split ergo keyboards,

eg https://gaming.kinesis-ergo.com/edge/ or its non gaming version

Just made the switch to Ergodox EZ so looking forward to that

How are they on a day to day basis? I’m thinking on getting one but not sure how big of an upgrade it is from unsplit ones.

Huge different especially if you tent them. I have large hands and always also felt cramped on unsplit keyboards but not on split keyboards

Been using one for over two years now. They're great, but I'd say go for one that isn't row staggered (the keys don't line up vertically in columns).

I'd like to add nuance to this advice.

For reasons I don't understand, ortholinear is either a Really Big Deal or it just... isn't. I'm the latter. Switching to the ErgoDox layout took some doing, it's been an iterative process of tweaking the layout, but actually typing on linear keys was a transition I barely noticed.

For different brains it's a complete showstopper and they have to learn how to type again, for many people that won't be worth it. I prefer typing on linear keyboards.

There is unfortunately little way to tell which camp you're in without trying for yourself.

ErgoDox isn't actually ortholinear, it's columnar.

Ortholinear is just a straight grid of buttons. Columnar is what most split ergo boards are. Having used one I don't find ortholinear very good feeling without a split, as it makes your wrists go in a weird angle.

I sorta transitioned in via way of an ortholinear which I think helped a bunch. Rather then going from a normal board to a splitergo, I used a preonic for a few months first. I have let others use my split board, and I've seen what you're talking about. Some people are able to adjust pretty easily, others just panic. The harder part is all the weird thumb buttons they have to use (backspace, enter, and [] are all thumb buttons for me)

For any one worrying you lose skill in other layouts when you switch, I haven't found that to be the case. For the most part I can transition back to a laptop keyboard pretty easily and only attempt to hit certain buttons that aren't there once or twice in the first few minutes.

It's an ortholinear split key board.

https://switchandclick.com/best-ortholinear-keyboards/

Here's another one

https://dygma.com/blogs/product-development/new-ortholinear-...

These are all what you're trying to say is only called 'columnar' because the vertical is staggered but the horizontal is straight.

As I hope I've demonstrated, in practice your criticism is without basis, these boards are described by their own manufacturers as ortholinear.

I've been using Keyboard.io Model 01 boards for a few years now as my daily drivers for typing, ever since they arrived from backing the Kickstarter campaign. For my broad-shouldered build, the split has been good for my shoulders, elbows, wrists and fingers while the ortholinear key arrangement seems to be good for my wrists and fingers as well. Those shipped with Mathias Quiet Click (or optionally Clicky) switches soldered.

I like them enough I've also backed the Model 100 for two boards. These boards are socketed and have a wider variety of switches available. The top enclosure has also switched from maple to walnut.

https://shop.keyboard.io/

I'm in the same boat - backed the original Kickstarter for the 01, bought a second to keep at the office, and have a 100 on order through the more recent Kickstarter. Took a bit of getting used to, but I really enjoy them. My biggest complaints were handled with the model 100 (serviceability), looking forward to the new one arriving.

Intrigued by these split keyboards but I really want a board with low profile switches.

That looks like my dream keyboard - except it isn't available with an ISO layout :(

What you're looking for is almost definitely deeper down the rabbit hole[1]. The problem will be getting it.

[1]: https://github.com/diimdeep/awesome-split-keyboards

Which one are you referring to?

None in particular. Your only requirement AFAIK is that your dream keyboard be split, and use the ISO layout. I don't know what the ISO layout is, but I can't imagine any of those keyboards couldn't accommodate it with(out) some tinkering.

Thanks, I thought you had spotted a certain model. Yes, split and ISO are a mandatory requirement, but I like the rgb lighting in that keyboard. Unfortunately, ANSI and ISO are physical different key arrangements, even if thy differ only by a few keys: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Physical_keyboard_la...

I just ordered the MX Mechanical Mini after reading this post.

My purchase has nothing to do with the merits or limitations of the keyboard whatsoever. Like many others I work with (in software development), I'm just addicted to buying new keyboards. I do not understand why I do this, but my guitarist friends have the same problem with buying guitars.

I would say keyboards are cheaper but ... i've seen $1k+ keyboards with people having display cases for dozens of them.

I bought an F97 when it was released, and it's by far the best keyboard I've ever used. https://iqunix.store/collections/f97-series/products/f97-hit...

It's bluetooth (up to 3 devices, which you can change between with a key stroke), and also supports wireless dongle or wired (usb-c)

Hot swappable, 260 day battery life...

The key caps are PBT- they feel so much better than any keys I've used.

I have always used cherry blue, but chose pink on this one and it's silent.

I love this thing.

I suppose the only thing that makes this a better proposition is Logitechs Flow software, which allows you to use the same keyboard/mouse across multiple devices on your network, without having to manually switch.

Otherwise, keychron's low-profile keyboards are a better value.

In my experience, Logi Flow has been somewhat wonky. I think a better, more stable option is to use a KVM.

Keychron has been amazing, 0 issues for me. Flow looks cool but I would question reliability.

Or there's Microsoft's Mouse Without Borders, which can be used with any brand mouse/keyboard. I use it all the time.

https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/all/mouse-...

Right, but that's only for Windows. Logitech Flow supports Mac + Windows.

I have one of their MX Vertical mice connected to my phone, laptop, and desktop, and can switch between the pairings with the hardware button on the bottom. If I was traveling a lot, I'd probably consider this as a good option to have a compact-but-comfortable keyboard.

Keychron has too high latency for me, I'm hoping this has a more acceptable input lag.

> Logitechs Flow software

How does it compare to Synergy or Mouse without borders?

https://symless.com/synergy

https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/garage/wall-of-fame/mouse-wi...

Personally I prefer Synergy. Paid for it a decade or more ago, and it works well.

there is subtle difference in situation you both describing, but that subtle difference can be HUGE thing.

MX series can be connected to multiple devices, most bluetooth accessories cant, still in BT5 world, but thats how it is.

so. even if software is absolutely same, you get better experience with MX keyboards.. because you dont have to pair it everytime you take your keyboard to work etc. which most keyboards fail to do. which is ridiculous. also with mx keyboard you can use it on your ipad, pc,.... and there is button or key shortcut(depends on model) which helps you to switch to that other device.

so you can have ipad + desktop in front of you and when you are writing on pc and your ipad email notification goes on, you just press keyboard shorcut and you can start typing on your ipad.

sorry for this convoluted explanation, but in real use it removes so many annoyances that it is worth mentioning.

mx series of products is best product line from all manufacturers of this kind of accessory combined and i can tell you i had a looooot of wireless keyboards in my life. i use ipad more that 10 years and had almost always keyboard connected. first ipad was trash as..

and this switching works even if you do not use ANY software.

Yes, that is multi-device bluetooth. Neat and definitely better implemented than in some cheaper devices. However, the question was specifically about the flow software.

I came here saying that I would never again use software for a peripheral (keyboard, mouse) to control color, etc.. that must be kept running to maintain settings. I'm looking at you Razor Mouse. It's one thing to have custom software to set settings but the idea that the peripheral can't maintain those settings unless the software is kept running is ridiculous to me. My GMMK keyboard, for instance, it's a bit awkward but you don't need custom software to control color or custom functions, you can switch most of those using the keyboard itself or run software, set your settings, then exit the software and maintain your settings.

> the only thing that makes this a better proposition is Logitechs Flow software

Not sure if you've tried Flow but personally, in my experience of using it (on Mac), I would not recommend it at all.

Their hardware is very good (I have an MX Keys keyboard and MX Master 3 mouse) but the software is buggy and doesn't live up to its marketing promises; especially Flow. To the degree that it somewhat devalues the otherwise well built hardware devices.

Flow is not very reliable for me. It wouldn't be quite so bad but Logitech have a very strange design flaw in their Flow implementation which compounds the software issues; the MX Keys keyboard has 3x dedicated device buttons to allow you to manually switch between host computers, but this does not sync with the mouse - which has its own button on the underside.

When you switch between computers via software using Flow (when it works), it moves both mouse and keyboard at the same time. But when Flow flakes out, as it often does, you have to revert back to using the dedicated button on the keyboard AND turn your mouse upside down and click the switch button multiple times to also switch it to the new host.

It seems to be madness that they have designed a matching pair of keyboard and mouse, with this advertised "multiple host" capability, and yet the very obvious feature of switching both keyboard AND mouse together, to the same host via the dedicated keyboard keys is absent.

Here's a 2 year old Logitech forum post about this issue with 674 upvotes: https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/3600507556...

And another 2 year old post with 275 votes: https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/3600493206...

Logitech say its "difficult to implement" and yet there are a number of workarounds on GitHub that people have come up with to fix this behaviour. Knowing that the Flow software has full control over which host the keyboard and mouse are assigned to, having the software/driver automatically switch both devices when the dedicated button is pressed on the keyboard seems like it should not be difficult to implement.

I'm now using macOS' new Universal Control feature instead which is a good reliable implementation of what Flow tried to achieve. Switching between my Macs has been 100% reliable since using Universal Control. The downside is the special functions of the MX Master mouse do not carry over to the second Mac (scroll wheel behaviour is different and difficult to control, dedicated buttons don't work). So there are a different set of compromises. I now plan to look at hacking up something that uses a combination of Universal Control and some custom messages sent to the keyboard/mouse to have them switch hosts based on when Universal Control switches hosts.

The Apple keyboard layout (with Cmd and Opt keys) is a feature that other commenters on this thread haven't yet discussed.

The major producers of keyboards with the Apple layout include "Keychron" and "Royal Kludge," but the brands aren't well-known to most consumers in contrast to Logitech. Each brand also has some reports of minor problems with build quality from forum discussions on Reddit, though it remains to be seen if the Logitech keyboard will be much better.

You could use a Windows-first mechanical keyboard for MacOS, but the layout is slightly different (the Windows key as Cmd and the Alt key as Option are in different positions than on a Mac-first keyboard). Fixes to remap the keys (example solution: https://superuser.com/questions/158561/how-can-i-remap-windo...) can cause problems for users who work with virtual Windows machines after swapping the keys.

OSX is 15% market share? Why would they make an entirely separate version on a new line of products just to cater to that, considering the fix you mentioned works for, well anyone not using VMs. (Typed this on a Ducky remapped for OSX)

It's certainly not 15% marketshare among premium corporate users. I bet if you condition on the company spending at least $700/unit on laptops for their employees, Apple's marketshare is more like 70%.

And they're buying the shitty Apple keyboards to go along with them. It's not realistic for Logitech to target the "we screwed up where the modifier keys are" aka "Apple layout" market on their first launch.

The Apple keyboards in my experience are pretty nice. I often use it as it is easier on my fingers and causes less joint pain.

Vs mechanical? Apples and oranges, not totally relevant to the GP. (Prefer my Magic A1843 no other non-mechs though I guess).

Targeting Apple users is effectively part of what they are doing with their launch. From the images in the submitted link, the keys also have labels for the Apple modifier keys in their default positions (that is, with Cmd next to the space bar).

Interesting, I wonder if it requires remapping or if the Logitech software does it for you? Previously they released a special layout just for OSX with "MX Keys for Mac" (not mechanical)

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/mx-keys-ma...

> condition on the company spending at least $700/unit on laptops for their employees

Did you miss a digit there? Seems like a very low bar. Every non-tech company I am aware of spends well more than that on laptops for very basic computer uses.

Where I work, Apple is a choice, but very few people have them. The only people I know who go for them are designers.

I've worked in a couple non-tech places, usually either everyone has crappy $300 bargain bin laptops, if the laptop is just used for a frontdesk role or for accessing some websites, or everyone has something similar to an Inspiron or IdeaPad with an i5 caliber CPU (almost surely less than $700 looking at current prices). In the latter case usually the executives/managers have Macbooks.

I know both my GP doctor (hospital) and specialty doctor (private practice) use bog standard midrange Windows laptops that can't possibly cost more than $700. Once you get past the $700 mark you're entering premium territory like XPS/Spectre/ThinkPad.

You're fortunate.

I am not a gamer. The price gouging on things gamers enjoy is irritating. It happened with headphones, mice, and now keyboards. As “gamers” and particularly streamers grew as a market category, the prices for goods associated with them went insane. Even considering inflation, $150 for a Logitech keyboard is just nuts, even if it is mechanical.

> Even considering inflation, $150 for a Logitech keyboard is insane, even if it is mechanical.

I don't think you have been looking at Logitech keyboards for a while. Logitech Craft, which is a few years old retails at $169. MX Keys (which this is presumably the mechanical version of) costs $119

I don't think the MX or the Craft series are aimed at gamers, but at office workers / typists.

Logitech Gaming Keyboards, such as G413 TKL is $69 and the Pro K/DA, which is a collaboration with the League of Legends Band/mascots is $129

$150 for a logitech keyboard is in no way high for the brand, or an attempt at taking advantage of gamers.

This is a pretty standard price for mechanical keyboards, whether pre-built or self-built. Hasn't really changed much in the last 5 or so years, that I am aware.

I do agree, though, that they do take advantage via FOMO or perceived elitism, to a degree, with such pricing.

Worse than the price inflation are all the RGB LEDs spammed over everything. Can't stand the gamer aesthetic taking over a market.

Mate, buying a mechanical keyboard a decade ago was nigh on impossible.

The counterpoint to this is laptops.

If you're doing CAD and you need to get a laptop with a decent GPU in it, the enterprise version of that will cost you twice as much as the gaming version.

Yeah, I just need something that will send the appropriate interrupt to the OS when I press a button.

Mechanical keyboards are actually expensive. I looked into making one once and it seemed that way, at least. I was shocked and dropped the project.

Worth pointing out they also released the new MX Master 3S [1] today.

[1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/05/logitech-mx-master-3...

Well, I sure hope it is better than the MX Master 3. For my hands the original – discontinued – MX Master is still the best fit and the MX Master 3 is too small. However, my supply of old MX Masters has started to break down on me at this point and I am growing increasingly worried what the replacement could be.

I'm with you. I loved the original, and tried to go straight to the MX Master 3, but it was too narrow. Ended up getting an MX Master 2S, and the size is comparable to the first, and I love it. This 3S keeps the narrower body shape of the 3, so it won't be an option for me.

Thank you, I will see if I can find one to try out. The MX Vertical has felt pretty nice in my hands too whenever I tried it at a store, but I can not buy a mouse with such an absolutely awful scroll wheel.

I have the MX Master 3 and it's so close to perfection:

1) put the device swap button on easily accessible place along with the device led indicator (perhaps incorporated in the battery led indicator); 2) make it able to work directly via usb cable for redundancy.

That is all.

The 3S is supposed to have more quiet clicks, which I consider another improvement.

I wished that when it is unnotched, scrolling would behave like scrolling on a trackpad. It still jumps lines, instead of smoothly moving. The sideway scrolling is awful. No idea how far to scroll before something starts to move.

The mouse is definitely nice to hold, but trackpads still provide a much better scrolling experience. Excel with large row-height is near impossible to navigate without a touch pad in my opinion (and whoever at Microsoft thought it was a good idea to only be able to scroll in whole cells should never work in usability again)

Hoped for MX Master 4 to be honest

Happy to see more mechanical keyboards with a low profile. I dont understand how enthusiasts use the typical wrist-bending tall keyboards all day long.

palm rest

It doesn't seem to have the US layout available in the UK, which is always a shame to see! I'm too used to the US layout to switch.

Compare with: https://www.keychron.com/collections/low-profile-keyboard-co...

do you have any low KEY TRAVEL silen keyboards ? waht i absolutelly hate about "mechanical" keyboards is that unnecessary long key travel which makes typing slower. and that constatn freaking noise is cancer.

I'm not associated with Keychron, but I have their K7 with optical "brown" switches. The travel seems normal to me and I've had no complaints about the sound. Other switches may be louder.

Absolutely no complaints on design or build. My only complaint with them is the K5 has been out of stock for as long as I've been aware of them. I love the K7 for travel, but I want something similarly low profile for my desk that has a number pad.

Wooting has been developing optical switches for which you can adjust the key travel distance. Unfortunately they are notoriously bad at keeping their promised release dates, so I run out of patience and went with an keychron and equipped it with yellow switches.

After trying QMK I can never go back to any keeb with proprietary software

> QMK

Have a look at ZMK then, if you want to go wireless!

https://zmk.dev/

Similarly, typing with keyboards where the thumb gets access to more than just the spacebar is another boon. (It's nice to be able to use the thumbs for space, backspace, enter, escape, tab).

Avoid installing their Logi Options software. It installs as root on OSX and is a nightmare to uninstall.

In my experience their software in general is terrible. For a while I had the Logitech G Hub software installed for configuring a G604 Lightspeed mouse, and it would randomly start eating 100% of a core for indefinite periods while sitting in the background for no apparent reason. Saw this behavior under both macOS and Windows.

Their hardware is decent but they gotta ditch the crappy lowest bidder offshore contractor software. It’s garbage.

> Their hardware is decent but they gotta ditch the crappy lowest bidder offshore contractor software. It’s garbage.

Completely agree. The difference in quality between hardware and software is really noticeable.

I will never buy another Logitech peripheral after they shipped the MX Master 3 mouse for mac with a scrollwheel that was fundamentally broken [1]. There's been zero recognition from Logitech about this issue, and everyone who's dealt with support has got the same shit about reinstalling drivers etc.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrTx6DmRZ5o

I don't understand why none of the big players have released an ergonomic mechanical keyboard. I've got a stash of MS natural keyboards I picked up on a closeout a couple years ago, and they are the ones I scatter around my home/office. But while the layout/ergonomics are decent they are like typing on a sponge.

A year or two ago, I found cloudnine, which is almost exactly what I was looking for in an ergonomic keyboard (actually split) and as a bonus it uses cherry switches. It also has programmable macro keys, and a backlight, two features I don't tend to need/notice but probably attracts some users.

I can't say its perfect, I was getting stuck modifier keys with one of the older firmware revisions, and the desktop app, allows some level of key layout changes, macro programming, and color selection. But in all cases its apparently developer cycle limited, because some obvious features are poorly thought out or missing (aka why can i change individual key colors but not the big knob color, or reprogram its functionality from the app instead having to use the function key modifier shortcuts to change its behavior).

I tried several higher end keyboards, and build 2 of them myself. (custom keycaps and all), but the average enthusiast mech. keyboard is just not usable for programming. most of them are high profile, while they are great for typing, they are terrible at activities where you have to navigate around in a speedy way (something that you do a lot during programming).

A low profile keyboard is a must, and the custom scene just doesn't have that many options for it, and you have to go commercial.

I have the G915 TKL Clicky version and it is a great keyboard. It is fast, low profile, and the switches feel great (Rebranded Khail Choc V1). The only problem is that it is a bit too noisy for office setting, and I can only use it at home. The G915 Linear version is quiet, but it doesn't feel that great, and I didn't like it, so I sticked with the Clicky version.

I am curious how this new attempt will feel and work out. I wish Logitech had a normal TKL layout for this, as the Mini feels a bit too cramped, while the full sized keyboard is just too large.

The more options in the market, the better for all of us.

One reason I'd be interested to try this is it's presumably easier to buy/return these than custom keyboards. I don't know where I can go to try out different key types, so I'm hesitant to drop hundreds of dollars. But if this ends up on Amazon and I can buy it with a 30 day return window, that makes me much more likely to take the plunge.

It might be hard to love Logitech as a brand but I've been satisfied with a number of their products and keyboards and mice are important to me. I'm typing for hours a day so it matters. I'm getting older and arthritis sucks so a good mouse helps some. (Although the roller keyboard thing is cool and I'm playing with it some.) Logitech is making it a little weird with the different wireless dongles. For example the MX Master 3 Business mouse uses Bolt but the MX Master 3 uses the older one. And now the Logitech "options" software has the regular and the "beta" which seems to be more for Bolt. I'm not going to buy this keyboard for now since I have plenty. (My most recent was a Drop that was really fun to customize and put together. I can't use it as a "daily driver" because I rely on the extra numeric keypad for work but it's my "convertible" for sunny days!

I have two mechanicals standing there, and love the tactility and all - but with a low profile like Mx Keys (or K380) I can "rest" my hand on the place it likes to stay since 1995 or something (ready for the Alt-Tabbing and the CapsLock + C/V), without bending my wrist that much...

I miss the K810 for it's perfect flatness. I've since switched to a lenovo thinkpad wireless trackpoint keyboard. It's flat, compact and awesome. I'd suggest to check it out.

Will check - I loved the keyboard on my X220. Do you use the trackpoint still?

Yeah I do use it sometimes.

I use a k845[0]. Excellent keyboard. Inexpensive.

[0]https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/k845-mecha...

Had one for 3 years, and then it started chattering unfortunately

How much better is this than the MX Keys I have and love using? I think the shallow buttons on the MX keys leads to repetitive strain in wrist area, will mechanical keys help me push down with less force than the MX keys and possibly alleviate some of this pain?

Is there a wireless mechanical _split_ keyboard with tilt and wrist support?

I currently have a Kinesis Freestyle Pro, which is fine for me, but they do not support a wireless version. This has helped with my wrist issues, but it's not practical for traveling.

I really wish Microsoft would make a version of the ergonomic sculpt with low profile mechanical switches.

Is Logitech even a good value buy these days? Feels like they are just pumping out the most generic chinese-made crap with their logo/brand and riding their old reputation rather than doing anything innovative.

This keyboard is a prime example.

Too late. (Mechanical keyboard hype started 10-12 years ago)

Too expensive. (My first mechanical KB was $30. Yes, that's right. If I didn't spill stuff on it, it would still be working. Still hard to justify paying more than $100 for a single peripheral).

Too Meh. (styling looks pretty generic and not really unique enough to tickle the novelty factor for the enthusiasts.)

Seriously though, I can't name a single reason this is better than any other mechanical KB in the market.

Wasn't very easy to find, but here are the differences between the 3 key types:

>Linear switches, colored red, are the smoothest, with no tactile bump and little noise.

>Tactile switches, colored brown, have a little discernible bump and little sound. It would be the one closest to a traditional typing experience you find on our MX Keys keyboards.

>Clicky switches, colored blue, have a discernible bump and sound. They are the loudest of the three switch types.

https://support.logi.com/hc/en-us/articles/5216332313495-FAQ...

Bad points. The cable is for charging only there is no way to simply plug it in to minimize latency. It has no standard caps lock led and instead blinks the LED on the caps lock key which is surely enabled by some low level functionality that is hard to disable.

I would bet dollars to donuts that if you swapped caps lock for escape it would still turn the blinking LED under the key on or off every time you hit escape. If there is a way to disable that its probably in some windows only software.

If you want a consumer mechanical keyboard where you don't have to futz with switches or group buys at the same price point I'm thinking Das Keyboard.

It's such a disappointment that they chose to continue the weird custom layout of MX Keys - merged function row with two extra buttons and missing PrintSc/Pause/ScrollLk. I also had to import my MX Keys from the US because the European layout is a joke. In the end, no matter how good things are, they are already spoiled from the design stage. Why, Logitech, why?

Side note also - I bought an MX Master 3 and within a year the rubber coating is ruined. I'm trying to get a warranty replacement but I'm pretty sure the replacement will share the same fate. I guess my hands just are acidic?

Buy a Topre and be done with it. RealForce or HHKB. You can’t go wrong with either of those keyboards.

I am also going to say something controversial: none of the Cherry-style switches are worth the hassle because they’re all flawed.

topre is fantastic but no love for cherry reds??

As a owner of an HHKB, I don't see what's so special about topre. It doesn't really feel better than other mechanical keyboards. After the initial excitement, it's just another keyboard. I wouldn't recommend it in 2022.

Blasphemy! All kidding aside, I know what you mean. I say the same about audiophiles.

You didn't say why Topre is good, or how the Cherry-style switches are flawed. I'm not sure what my takeaway is, other than what you individually like.

Does anybody know if this Logitech keyboard supports custom keycaps?

I'm sorely tempted to replace my Keychron K6 with it * Battery life is apparently 10 months - the Keychron K6 I'm lucky to get a week or so (yes, this is with backlight off) * Keychron doesn't report battery life over BT * Keychron - takes 3-4 seconds to wake from sleep each time, which gets super annoying

Of course, I do love the Cherry MX Greens - wonder how the Clicky in the Logitech compares.

And yes I want my custom Granite keycaps on this - but it's some low-profile version - so will it work?

I have spent well over $1000 on mechanical keyboards over the last decade, which isn't much compared to some real hobbyists, but I feel I've got enough experience to have an opinion on things.

Earlier this year I realized I like low profile, scissor switch keyboards better than expensive mechanical keyboards. I type faster on them and find them much more comfortable. I don't know what's wrong with me. I do know that I can't find a good low profile keyboard anywhere, because everyone is just making mechanical now.

I have a lot of MX gear, it's good stuff. After transitioning towards ergo products though I can't imagine going back to a vanilla keyboard.

I am using a K860 now and really like it a lot, minus the tenkey form factor. Would love to see a shallow (yet tactile/clicky) keyboard in the spirit of ~2015 Macbook Pro but in an ergonomic layout w/o tenkey. I have smaller hands and the full travel of cherry switches ends up being cumbersome.

Anyone know if this holy grail kb exists?

I tracked down a good condition 2009-2010 vintage A1242 aluminium ten-keyless Apple Keyboard[1] on ebay for £54 last year for exactly that feeling. Supposedly they came with iMacs for just a year or so before they were discontinued. My first-gen Magic Trackpad fits perfectly where the numpad would be. My only complaint is I can't position the trackpad below the spacebar like on a MacBook so have to move my hands from the home row, but that's because the keyboard and trackpad both have a slant to them.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_keyboards#Aluminum_w/o_N...)

Some of the models on their site are wearing beanies. Must be freezing in their hipster work studios.

Anyway, sadly you can't actually buy an orange Logitech beanie. Only grey and navy.

https://logitechvcgear.merchorders.com/retail_slash_employee...

This seems like a poor option for this price range.

Do we have any users here who have to type important passwords, and still own wireless keyboards? What convinced you this is safe?

I use a wired keyboard for latency, FileVault, and reliability reasons. I’m not concerned about the security.

If someone is close enough to sniff BT packets, they can also do acoustic analysis of your typing, or a TEMPEST attack on the (plaintext!) USB protocol. BT can have about the same level of encryption as TLS. https://duo.com/decipher/understanding-bluetooth-security

>close enough to sniff BT packets, they can also do acoustic analysis of your typing, or a TEMPEST attack

Evidence needed, those look multiple orders of magnitude harder.

>BT can have about the same level of encryption as TLS

But does your keyboard always have it, even in bootloader/initrd? What about the far more common wireless USB dongles?

I don't understand why virtually everyone, even DIY enthusiasts, appears to insist on these monstrously large 6-7 key width space bars. Even a 4 width spacebar would leave room for another pair of modifier keys comfortably located beneath the thumbs. The only modern exceptions I've seen are some Japanese keyboards.

They don't tell you what the actual switches are on the page, but they look like Cherry's low-profile switches, which will hopefully mean that the keycaps can be customized.

Taller keycaps like SA or MT3 profile might not be great with such short travel, but GMK/OEM/Cherry profile would probably be comfortable.

Could also be choc v2s, which I say is more likely, because otherwise they'd plaster cherry logos somewhere on the page.

There's a bunch of compatibility problems with those. Cherry, GMK, and PBT MT3 all don't work according to a geekhack thread I see. Cherry's lp switch would probably have similar issues.

I didn't know about the choc V2s until today, thanks! A shame that there might be fitment issues.

They're a bit on the obscure side, even among low profile keeb people. Very few boards support them (I think there's like a corne variant and maybe one or two other one offs), and they only come in 3 types.

I remember the 'US electrical socket with no ground pin' shaped stem form the V1s, and thought it was a shame that it was so hard to source keycaps for them. I never tried more than some loose switches I got on sale, since, you know. No broad support/interest, it seemed.

Luckily that's increased. MBK keycaps came out and which were some of the first to not have flat tops. Then they put out a colored variant, and there's been a few other companies readying new ones (MCC, WRK(work louder), and chicago steno if you want something really fancy). Nothing like mx mount switches though, with a few dozen group buys running at once but it's getting easier to find good stuff.

Per The Verge's review[0], they're using Kalih Choc V2 switches.

[0]: https://www.theverge.com/2022/5/24/23137797/logitech-mx-mast...

They do, expand the specs section and scroll down. “Graphite MX Mechanical”, whatever those are behind the brand.

Never I will buy again Logitech crappy hardware. Also we should avoid buying wireless stuff unless necessary imo.

Review here, if you're interested: https://bigtechquestion.com/2022/05/24/review/logitech-mx-me...

G815 and G915 already exist. Idk why they needed a refresh without a volume scroll and some hotkeys. Or the rgb.

Apart from then not offering USB-C dongles at all (not even as separate purchase) I love my Logitech mouse and keyboard to death (K850 set).

Pop in some rechargeable batteries and basically you’re set for a year. They always work, never fail, sturdy build, decent software, no nonsens look and no gimmicks.

I want a keyboard with the size and layout of the Roccat Arvo https://www.google.com/search?q=roccat+arvo+compact+gaming+k...

Do they have a USB-C receiver yet? Doesn’t say here.

EDIT: Found it, it’s in “System Requirements” - USB-A. That’s annoying.

There are adapters, but that's another $8 or whatever [1] and more stuff sticking out from the computer, of course.

[1] https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=13507

I have a low profile keychron k2, and I like it for the most part. Looks great. However, I tried out the logitech ergo keyboard and it feels nicer to my hands. I would probably switch to it, if it had LED lights. Mechanical switches and no number pad and I would definitely switch.

Doesn't seem to compete with comparable mechanicals. The Flow feature is the only appealing thing here.

I would have liked to see the VR keyboard tracking included. I would have considered one then.

I'll note that I love my MX Master 3 and haven't found anything that even comes close.

I use MX Keys, MX Keys Mini, and enthusiast mechanical keyboards. I used to use Flow but switched to Mouse Without Borders.

I am interested in this, like the Bolt connectors (no wake up lag like bluetooth), and won't use Flow.

Some of you need to realize you are not representative of the purchasing public at large...

so what's the recommendation for a mechanical keyboard that can be used in a silent, office environment (with coworkers) ?

i went over some of the comments and read about "MX Browns" and "low profile switches", etc. What should I be googling for ?

this is one of the reason me and several of my colleagues never got into mechanical keyboards - the sound. not all of us have the liberty to work at home because we prefer mechanical keyboards. OTOH we would prefer not to piss everyone off with loud keyboards. I suspect many people are in this boat.

Are there mechanical keyboards which have the sound profile of a regular keyboard ? i know they may not be the best in the "mechanical keyboard feel"..but im ok with that.

Browns (Cherry MX is the brand you might have heard referenced, but other switch manufacturers tend to align their colour coding for analogous offerings) are noticeably quieter but they're not going to sound like a mushy non-mechanical switch. Also, they're not meant to be bottomed out but many typists do bottom them out frequently, which makes them louder. Still I find they are a lot more forgiving to your coworkers than a clicky switch.

Part of me wants to say "that's the company's problem to fix", if the working arrangement is such that keystrokes can negatively impact your coworkers. Things like white noise generators and walls go a long way to dampening that.

Two things made my WASD Keyboards's blue switches much quieter:

- Installing the little rubber O rings around the base of each switch so that it's not super loud if I do happen to bottom out.

- Replacing the ABS keycaps with PBT. I was genuinely surprised at the difference that made. It's not subtle in the least.

I still probably wouldn't use it in a coworking environment because I don't hate my colleagues.

sorry im trying to figure out the jargon here. you bought a mechanical keyboard and then replaces the keys (ABS with PBT) ? is there anything that has this off-the-shelf ?

I'm very new to mechanical keyboards, but I just got an Epomaker EP84. PBT keycaps, and hot-swappable switches (I got brown). Very happy with it, though I've not tried any others. $85 (though I'm in UK, it was £70 here).

>Part of me wants to say "that's the company's problem to fix", if the working arrangement is such that keystrokes can negatively impact your coworkers. Things like white noise generators and walls go a long way to dampening that.

so not all of us are based in the US. And we are limited by access to products like "white noise generators" and also land availability.

I would love recommendations if possible!

This is an honest admission from Logitech that their keyboards are universally "bad" and mechanical keyboards are now offered at every price point - good enough to hurt them. I'll give this a pass unless they offer a hot-swappable board.

I don't like the size of RIGHT-SHIFT on the mini model. When using Vim keys, I always find it more convenient to have a full-size SHIFT on both sides of the keyboard.

This is not specific to Logitech, however. Many mechs do that for whatever reason.

It's about space savings. 1.75u width shift is considered a 'standard nonstandard' size for a compact keyboard, and it's generally worth the squeeze for the extra full-size 1u key.

I'll be the one to say it. For the price point you can build a very good custom keyboard with low profile keys of your choice. This is a fact that Logitech, Corsair, and razer, hope you never bother to find out.

I'll be the one to ask for it: you saying that without any hint on where and how to procure this means that I can't take your message seriously.

Provide proof?

Of course you can, but not everybody wants to.

Right now my desk is littered with ESP32 modules, small breadboards and random electronics related to a few projects I am working on.

I could build a keyboard nearly from scratch - I have a CNC machine I could carve a case on, Atmel chips that I could use to make a USB interface, etc. But I don't have the interest in building or modding a keyboard, I just want to buy something that works so I can concentrate on other things.

IMO Logitech is better than average at market research and product targeting. My guess is they will sell hundreds of thousands of these easily, probably just not to the mechanical keyboard hacker market.

Can you though?

I am trying to build a custom keyboard. It's exhausting to sort through the bad layouts, tacky RGB cases, and ugly keycaps. Custom keycap sets rarely have legends for function/media keys. If I find something I like, everything is sold out, or the "drop" has ended.

It's potentially a lot of work. I love the idea of a big manufacturer designing a keyboard that checks many boxes for people. Decent switches, a decent layout, and actual legends on keycaps will go a long way.

Most people are not interested into building keyboards.

If this is anything like their ergonomic mouse then it's probably fantastic

I hope they make an MX Split keyboard that doesn't cost an arm and a leg

I really love Logitech's K380 keyboard.

It's the perfect one for me: shallow travel, silent, nice space between keys, no numpad, cheap and very light with a bonus of connecting to multiple devices.

PS. It's non mechanical

As someone who spends several hours a week livestreaming, I really appreciate the mushy-applesauce-inspired-super-quiet keys that Logitech provides - you can't hear them over the mic.

I'm definitely a neophyte to mechanical keyboard culture but its pretty obvious that its being co-opted by and sold to normies.

I've observed that its the mechanical keyboard gamer scenes fault.

I remember it being the other way around -- there was a class of programmers that loved the old buckling-spring IBM mechanical keyboards, then about 15 years ago Das Keyboard started making a new stuff. It became a much more common shortly after when the patents on mechanical key-switches expired; Cherry and Gateron made their switches widely available and OEMs took it to the "wide niche" that it is today.

If you're in the market the keychron brand has similar builds with hot swappable switches. I'm rocking a K6 with holy panda switches and absolutely love the buttery feel.

I also went with keychron a year ago and I’m very pleased. My only complaint is that battery is shitty if you use the wireless mode with the led backlight on all the time (it will last about 4-5 days max).

We have a K2 and Q1 (more than 1.5kg!), both will yellow Gaterons, and they are just so great to work with. I don't know what Logitech's marketing was thinking, they seem to have stripped all that is fun about mechnical keyboards from the product and created something exceptionally lame.

I've always been happy with my logitech purchases. They've been very reliable and when I had an issue with one keyboard the RMA process was great!

Is this just the G915 without the gamery branding?

Looks like it. It is probably using the same switches since you can choose what switch type you want.

I don't understand all the hate in this comment section.

I love my G915 and I would prefer this design compared to the gamer RGB for an office setting or professional desk.

Nope, no dedicated media keys or scroll wheel on the mx mechanical.

Ah man. I just bought a G915 TKL, as the closest thing to what I really wanted, which was this.

I got the G915 TKL, too and love it. The only thing I wish for from this version would be the dual-labeled key caps with Mac keys... But I still definitely prefer the G915. What do you like about this more? Is it because it's less flashy than the G915, maybe?

Yeah, I don't care about all the gamer-centric stuff. I wanted a wireless keyboard with firm, low profile keys and the ability to switch between several Macs easily, ideally just by plugging my hub into the laptop. This is quite nice, but I had to use Karabiner to swap Cmd and Option on the left. I still haven't been able to get the FN and "menu" keys on the right to behave.

I'll have to look closely at this new keyboard, but it seems to check all the boxes, and I might buy one.

For what its worth, Mac has native settings where you can re-map the keys (which is what I did).

Here's a screenshit https://imgur.com/a/3LJtRmp

Doesn't look like they have easily user replaceable batteries, which means a default no from me.

Scrolled through this page on mobile and there's not a single clear picture of the product.

@ 0:47s - Faces of 100x coder.

@ 0:04 - 0:05 - Watch a 100x coder typing speed.

@ 0:37 - 0:38s - Watch a 100x coder typing speed.

Logitech makes better mice than keyboards ;oP, upgrade the MX ergo to USB-C and better BT plz.

numpad is a dealbreaker for me

I never really realized how annoying it was to reach so far for my mouse until I got used to having a tenkeyless keyboard...now I won't use anything else.

EDIT: nevermind, there is a tenkeyless version - i'm a dummy

This also comes in a tenkeyless mini variant

Ok, wow I'm dumb I didn't even try the dropdowns.

This is what's appealing with the complex layouts with < 50 keys. It's satisfying to be able to drive a system with hands sticking close to home row, and rarely straying from the same column.

Too bad it's not low profile switches. There aren't enough of those.

Don't see the point of this product, this fits squarely in the "too little, too late" category. $150-200 buys you something that has quality switches, probably will have socketed switches (so swapping switches, modifying them, etc, won't require de/resoldering them), comes with at least double-shot PBT keycaps (or better), will have an actually decent backplate, and nowadays a lot of keyboards are coming with sound dampening internally preinstalled, and sometimes even pre-lubed.

What did Logitech do here? Kalih Choc V2s (and Logitech doesn't disclose this on their website). They aren't the worst switches, but they're not MX pin compatible (ironic for a keyboard named MX), which also means not a lot of options for keycaps when these start wearing after only 2-3 years of ownership (Chocs don't use MX stems, and I can already tell those look like really low grade caps), which means a keycap replacement will probably cost at least half as much as the keyboard (rare stem types aren't cheap and don't have many options). Side profile photos make it look like it doesn't even have a real plate, and it is so thin that it will flex, thus damaging switches or breaking connections. It is an exceptionally thin build, so they're using a lithium cell that isn't easy to replace.

Like, I'm sorry, but this entire thing looks like its design to fail in 2-3 years. You buy mechanical keyboards to use for a decade, because you actually want something halfway decent to type on. $150-200 puts you into the high end of the hobby. If I wanted a keyboard to fail in 2-3 years, but still be mechanical and cut all the corners like Logitech seems to have, China has cranked out some really cheap bangers that have wireless and all the new modern wireless features in the $50 range, or even less if you're going wired (since this is a desktop keyboard, wireless is often an actually unwanted misfeature).

I'd skip the entire thing and just buy a real keyboard from a known quality vendor. Literally the price is what made this be instantly DOA, they could have made an argument for $100 to go after the non-knowledgeable segment of the market and probably have gotten away with it.

I think Logitech got a case of sudden onset greed when they looked at stuff Keychron, Nuphy, or even GMMK have been cranking out, and thought they could get in on it at a higher price point, but not willing to bring the build or parts quality.

Do not buy this thing, you will regret it.

Edit: So I read through some of the sibling comments. Nice to see a lot of people also jumping up Logitech's ass over this.

I don't understand the argument of "but what about my parents/grandparents in their 50s and 60s". They don't buy mechanical keyboards, they don't care about the fancy feature set in some Bluetooth keyboards, and they will find it absolutely absurd somebody paid over $100 for a keyboard.

They will buy a Logitech, and it'll be that really shitty one on the bottom shelf at Walmart, or they will search on Amazon for keyboards and sort by price and buy one of the cheaper ones and it will be some no-name Chinese brand.

Unless they're complete absolute unrepentant nerds like we are, the average person on earth, of any possible demographic, is not going to care about a $150 keyboard. Logitech's brand recognition can't save them, it will not push crapware.

I thought TKL as the definitive way to go. Looks like Logitech disagrees

Shocked it took them so long to have something like this

I used to love Das Keyboard. I love Keychron now.

I still own a Das Keyboard II in pristine condition with unlabeled POM keycaps and Cherry blue switches. Was not so happy with Das Keyboard 4, now I am a happy Kechron user, too.

What a terrible page, what is the N-key rollover?

When's the MX touch pad coming out logitech?

I'll stick to my UHK (Ultimate Hacking Keyboard), thank you. How is this even remotely interesting? This isn't even a split keyboard.

Has a Trackpoint? No => ignore it.

Has a NumPad? Yes => ignore it.

This one is available without a number pad.

I have one at work, it feels absolutely fantastic. I was very surprised when it was used randomly at a new info kiosk.

This is just an ad, why is this on HN?

It takes you to the product page (primary source) for a product that was just announced today.

I use an MX Master 3 mouse (which they also updated today), and I thought the HN crowd might be interested (good or bad) in a new mechanical keyboard from Logitech.

i don't understand how this front pages HN?

Even though I use a mx master 2 I strongly dislike logitech product. It’s tacky and minimum acceptable quality. Like Dell laptops. Opening the box you cant tell where the shipping packaging ends and the product begins.

Overpriced

This shouldn't cost more than 60, and i'm being generous

Let‘s take the thing and make it like the other thing.

Wait, aren’t you making oranges into apples?

And charging more!

Where’s the benefit? Where’s the increased productivity?

Le what?

At the top left there is a link to Girls Who Code and it seems that logitech has gone with the hash tag #WomenWhoMaster. Weird choice considering "master branch" and "master bedroom" are now considered too offensive these days.

https://www.logitech.com/en-us/mx/girls-who-code.html

Perhaps the marketing team at Logitech believes there is a difference between adopting a master/slave metaphor as opposed to referring to the concept of mastery in some ad copy.

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