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Comment by fasteddie31003 | Hacker News Reader

If software engineering and carpentry paid the same, I'd be a carpenter.

Ha. I joined the Navy in the 90s and when I got out I tried to get into auto mechanic school. They wanted me to sign up for an apprenticeship at a car dealership and were happy to take my tuition money. But no one would allow me (female) to apprentice. They would say "sure...wait a bit for a start date" then I would call to ask when to come in and they would always have given the spot to a male student.

Even after getting into the IT field, I tried to learn carpentry. I went to local shops that had the tools. No one was receptive to me for some reason. They were either closed during the times I could go after work, or defunct, or only wanted people who already knew carpentry (WTF).

Anyway, I entered software development because it was the only field that would hire me entry level. Aaaaaandd the only field I could actually self-teach. I am grateful for that fact...that you can teach yourself through books (back then no StackOverflow haha) nor Youtube, nor Udemy, etc. Just plain push yourself through the text books available. I spent a LOT of time at Borders books and Barnes and Noble, trying to figure things out.

You can't really do that with carpentry. Maybe you can self-teach auto repair. But as a woman, not even my family members would spend time to teach me (I had a cousin that was embarrassed to have me help out at his auto shop).

I got away with self-teaching IT as a black woman because it is not nearly as sexist or racist as other fields, with Indian and other immigrants showing the way to enlightenment to a great degree (in my personal experience).

Huh. That is an interesting point about carpentry not being as easy to self-teach. I don't think it's entirely impossible to do so, the Youtuber Mr. Chickadee being a counter-example: he's mentioned in interviews learning techniques from books, such as Japanese joinery.

But then if you watch channels like Essential Craftsman it's clear there's a great deal of know-how that has to be passed on by someone who knows the trade. Stuff about how to work efficiently and tricks you wouldn't think of. Even if it were in a book or videos exist, you don't necessarily know to go looking for it.

It is definitely possible to self-teach auto repair. I did, out of necessity. Things you try either work or they don't, but there's logical reasons for it that can be derived from first principles.

However the computer is in a class of its own when it comes to self-teaching. Instant feedback and infinite capacity for experimentation. Carpentry doesn't have a built-in objective critic like that. Auto-repair is somewhere in between.

You'll pass their "do you already know carpentry" test by being able to demonstrate basic safety knowledge and knowing which tool is which. You can definitely teach yourself carpentry, and they are likely selective because they have people coming in who have already self-taught a fair amount. So if you come in not knowing what a screwdriver or a drill bit is, they don't want you.

It would be unreasonable if they expected something like experience with specialty MDF blades and full panel saws. I doubt that is really what they wanted.

> But no one would allow me (female) to apprentice.

Wow. That's really shitty.

IBEW (electrical workers union) seemed to be pretty decent about apprenticing in Southern California.

My situation was the reverse: I wanted to get some training in electrical code, but didn't want to apprentice. That completely discombobulated everybody at the union--it was like they were seeing a space alien. They had no ability to accomodate my request even if I gave them money.

Why would they want to train a rat?

I think framing this question as either "in the union" or "a rat" is pretty counterproductive. There are good reasons a person might want to learn something without pursuing it as a career.

I'd feel pretty impoverished if I was only allowed to know the skills required to do my job because learning the skills required to do someone else's job was forbidden by some cloak of secrecy by those who knew the skills.

Sure it makes sense why you would want to learn, but why would they want to train you?

Because I was willing to hand them money?

I'm an electrical engineer and several of the testing systems we design run on various levels of industrial three phase. It would be nice to wire them up according to standard so when we hand them off to the union guys actually installing them on the factory floor we're all on the same page.

In addition, it would be nice to know the standards so that I can tell when it's done wrong. For example, I once took a shot of 480VAC to my right arm due to a system having been miswired, and I very much never want to do that again.

If they trained anyone who gave them money it would come at the risk of compromising their very existence.

I seriously doubt that. The number of people willing to throw money at anything is vanishingly small.

My sense from talking to them was never that they were angry--everybody seemed to genuinely want to help me even if only to observe the strange creature. It was more that simply asking to join a class without being on an apprentice/journeyman track was so far out from left field that they had absolutely no processes that could be brought to bear.

By contrast, if you want a frosty reception, out of ignorance ask a Levantine Arabic teacher to teach you Egyptian Arabic. He didn't assault me, but I think he contemplated it.

I know it's probably not the same, but my ex (a woman of color) has been self-learning woodworking by going to a shared community studio. They also have free courses geared towards women and minorities. Perhaps there's something like that in your area.

It's not the same as getting a paid job (she was doing it as a hobby), but did pick up occasional gigs and had several other offers for work

My great-grandfather and uncle (retired) were carpenters. While carpentry is a great hobby they definitely preferred/liked my professional direction -- at some point lungs, legs, hands, and wood do not like each other.

Well considering the culture on most job sites includes ridiculing people for wearing safety glasses and dust masks, there’s definitely room for improvement.

every job site ive been on, no one ridiculed me for wearing safety glasses or dust masks. quite the opposite.

Having done some light home renovation, I would prefer installing printers over carpentry.

And I hate printers.

no, nobody deserves to have to install printers. Thats a human rights violation

Yea but then you'd have to be interviewed like a software engineer

http://www.jasonbock.net/jb/News/Item/7c334037d1a9437d9fa650...

I might get RSI at work but it's very unlikely that I'll cut my fingers off in a mousing accident.

Carpenters get RSI all the time too - or neuralgia e.g swinging a hammer 1,000 times a day for 30 years will take a toll on your elbow.

You realize hammers are a last resort tool these days when you can't get a nail gun somewhere.

Still, for a computer programming to maim you, you really need to be creative.

Carpentry is by comparison easy to get maimed.

For most modern guys, yes, but there are still a lot of other uses for a hammer. Whether it's just not worth it to break out the nailer, or light demolition, or aligning framing elements, etc. Personally, since I moved into my property a few years ago, I frame about 50 linear feet per year, which is next to nothing, and I still preemptively went out and bought an electric nailer. No clue how the old school guys did it and maintained feeling in their arm.

you realize hammers are used all the time in carpentry still. what do you do if your gun doesnt sink the nail? or the boards didnt fasten tight together after nailing. or you need to pull a nail. or wedge or lever or...

Maybe go work for Etsy? Dogfood your own product.

That's the story of Etsy's original founder/CEO, actually - he was a woodworker who wanted a better way to sell online. Same with me, too - I was a glassblower selling on Etsy and founded a successful startup based on their site, because I wanted a better way to manage my shop.

If carpentry paid more I would stay as a SWE

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