On Aging Alone (2021)
thewalrus.ca
thewalrus.ca
Still, we've persevered, and made it work for 22 years. But I will soon be 50, and have chosen to view this round number as significant. I would like to start living life as I would like it, both career and relationship wise, and am currently trying to plan out what shape that might take. The stories and information in the comments here, are truly fascinating to me, the breadth of ideas being mentioned are a real breath of fresh air, and a great example of what makes Hacker News great (in my view), so thank you everyone.
Sounds like you're just about to make a relatively large (perhaps dramatic?) change to your home and work life. Some people would call that a mid-life crisis but I think it's people realising the shortness of life and making sure they don't waste whatever they have left of it.
Hope whatever the outcome it's a net positive :)
I may be on the brink, as you say, about to jump - or I may just be all talk. I'm not sure myself, if I'm honest :-) Though I am sure that I definitely prefer solitude + a number of friends now and again, rather than one super intense soul-mate all the time.
Thanks for the good wishes, and best of luck to you too!
I share the part of your story about liking computers and getting a wonderful career out of it - I currently work remotely in a low cost of living country making six USD figures, so I'm quite well into the 1% income bracket locally. Up until maybe a year or so ago, I'd been in 3 relationships, all multi-year, including a long distance one during university. It always felt that I had been missing out on the "single guy" part of life, and looking back now, my relationships weren't all that fulfilling; mostly they were probably a way to not be alone, although I still felt alone, and was ok with that.
This past ~year I've been out casually with many women (maybe something like 15?) and... It's fun, but obviously it's not fulfilling other than for ego reasons. I think the main positive thing in it is that I know it's "just ok" and don't have to wonder about it; if I had committed early on this would likely be something that would always be on my mind. What if I was letting my best life go by? Well, I haven't found ultimate happiness, but I have found comfort in the fact that I looked for it at least, and won't regret not having done so.
For me, casual relationships aren't really fulfilling, and committed ones aren't either. I've learned to be alone and even a bit alien from early on, and don't resent it.
This is not to criticize embracing being single at 25. It's a good opportunity to figure out who you are and what you like. But the empty "a way to not be alone" relationships also happens in short term relationships and casual dating. You get what you put in.
> I haven't found ultimate happiness
You will not find this, it does not exist, and it is certainly not obtained by catching some mythical "the one." Unreasonable expectations will doom any relationship.
There are cases where the grass looked green, but upon marriage, you discovered it false. Cheating, publicly showing off said cheating (yet hiding it from you), no respect, all manner of things can be uncovered.
If the idea of a normal girl sounds like a step up, I wouldn’t sit tight.
Think of it like hiring a coach. Lebron James has a coach. Tia Toomey has a coach. The worlds most successful business leaders have coaches. It’s alright to hire one who can work with you on making your life better. Best of luck!
In either case, read up on the process for finding one that works you (and maybe your partner). Make sure it's someone you respect. There's a wide variety in quality, and if it's someone who you do not take seriously it will not be a good use of time.
Good luck
Of course, maybe it's all different for you. I mean that. I'm only suggesting something to check.
Have a look at the material under "Nice Guy Syndrome" by Dr. Robert Glover. [1] Maybe get his audio book "No More Mr. Nice Guy" and listen to it for a bit, and see how well it fits or does not fit your situation.
Happiness is a fickle thing.
If you'd be comfortable sharing, why do you feel this is not something you can achieve with your partner?
So the problem comes, because my wife is an exceptional empath, with what seems to me like almost supernatural intuition. And she sees through my little constructs in a second, and demands they be pushed aside, in order to get to know the "real me" beneath. Trouble is there is no "real me", apart from the rather dark, turbulent thoughts that churn the waters of my inner life. Therein lies the problem, a perpetual game of hide and seek, and I find it rather wearing. (Largely my own problem though, as I said).
Apologies if the above sounds a bit weird, or off-putting or whatever. Anyway - you did ask! :-)
> I have my own inner thoughts but they can be rather dark, and need extensive filtering before being presented to the world at large
This really sounds like a good thing to reality check with a therapist! Non-judgmental listening is a core piece of the service they provide.
I've had similar feelings in the past. Having things you don't feel you can share will make you feel isolated. Saying these things out loud to someone in and of itself can be a load off. And I strongly suspect these things you're suppressing aren't as bad as you think.
It's telling that your response has nothing bad to say about your wife. The issues you raised are really, really not going to be solved by leaving her.
When I'm unhappy in a relationship being single feels like freedom. But a breakup is trauma. During mine I went through hell, my entire being was be screaming at me that I'd made the worst mistake of my life. The loneliness was profound. Self esteem plummeted. My ex-girlfriend went through hell too.
As it happens, my breakup needed to happen - I want a family, my ex-gf could not commit to having one with me. I'm on the other side now and feel good about the decision. But I still miss her all the time. And this was a relationship of only a few years.
Lastly, on my friends with dads who have divorced their mom in his 50's - this decision will permanently change your relationship with your children. One doesn't talk to his dad at all, the other tolerates but no longer respects his dad. Are those scenarios possible?
Good luck. Maybe it is that you have to leave your wife. But do your due diligence that this is the case. It's a button you can't unpress.
I've taken more than enough of people's time today (thank you and others for your insights - they are really useful). I did want to clarify something about my thoughts though - it's not that they're always dark and horrible at all - but they are rather opaque to an outsider. As I mentioned, I grew up alone for large swathes of time, and I learned to have conversations with myself, as a form of companionship. Such conversations form my inner life - but its difficult to let someone else in on them. As an example, here's Bill Burr with a story about muffins, which I relate to so much - it still makes me cry with laughter even though I've watched it about 1000 times. :-)
Thanks for the clip, Bill Burr is hilarious
I haven't had many girlfriends either, but I haven't felt that as a "lack". I've never had many friends either - usually not more than three or four good friends at any time.
I now live alone, and I don't see many people. I talk to my exes fairly regularly, and I'm on good terms with my kids - but they live faraway. I'm not "lonely", though, in the sense that being alone makes me sad or regretful. I'm fine with my own company. I like to crack jokes and talk politics, so I miss those occasions; I miss cuddling a warm woman; and I'd like to have someone living with me, to pick me up if I fall over, and to look after me if I get ill. But those things are basically transactional, not about loneliness; I could pay someone to provide those services.
I'm not a "loner" - I like people, and people like me. I'm not shy. I think it's just that I find that cultivating casual friendships in the hope they might blossom is a lot of work, so I don't cultivate many. And the idea of having two girlfriend relationships at the same time - i.e. while one is ending and the other beginning - fills me with dread, and I've never done that.
Like you, I've spent my career in IT. I've never made a good friend at work. I mean, I've made "friends" with people at work, and even brought them to my home and made dinner for them; but they were never good friends. I'm a bit idiosyncratic in my tastes, and many of my attitudes and opinions are quite leftfield. These work-friends were all very straight, by my standards. I've no objection to people being "normal" - by definition, the majority of people are - that's no obstacle to being friends, for me. But it may have been an obstacle for them.
I've actually found most of my most intense friendships via computers - though those are few, and to be honest I've mellowed in my middle age. I'm trying my hand at making friends through social activities more these days - I definitely enjoy conversing, and sharing a laugh with them.
I don't find it difficult to maintain an intimate relationship, until the writ arrives! I can compromise, I can listen (up to a point - I am a man, after all), and I'm pretty tolerant.
In both friendships and intimate relationships, I expect two-way trust. The difference is that in an intimate relationship, I'm relying on that trust; I don't place the same reliance on a good friend. I think it would be unkind (and unfriendly) to lean that heavily on a friend.
I lost my closest and oldest friend when he stole something from me (it actually was my partner's, which made it much worse, because she had relied on my trust in him). But in general, I wouldn't be that put-out if a good friend broke trust; people have lives to live, they make commitments to new people, and they make new friends that might take a dislike to you. These things happen, but I don't expect them to happen in a committed relationship.
But they do happen; so clearly my expectations are still out of whack with reality.
How many families actually fit that profile? I’m not entirely sure.
This is not a jaded attempt to say the pursuit of relationships or family aren’t worthwhile. I just want to set some context here for those feeling lonely, for those who feel like they are standing outside in the cold on the street looking through windows into warm living rooms full of people with warm feelings toward each other.
I’m the only one of my siblings who has consistently been on speaking terms with either of my divorced parents. Both of my divorced parents consistently tell me they wish they could get away from their current spouses but feel it’s too late start over. Only one of my 3 siblings isn’t currently fantasizing of leaving their spouse. The mix of who in the extended family is currently speaking to whom is always in flux. Of my friends in very long term relationships that I know well enough to know if they are happy or not, about half are somewhere between resentful to outright miserable. My grandparents divorced when they were in their late 60s and went on to live much happier separate lives. In the hospital before my grandfather died, he insisted my grandmother should absolutely not visit him.
Again, I am not saying seeking loving relationships and building a family isn’t an extremely worthwhile goal for everyone. Even given all I’ve said so far, I hope I can build one someday. It just bums me out to see people in threads like this idealizing what it means to find a partner, to have a family. It can be extremely good. It can also be extremely bad. Joining with others is not a magic spell that, on its own, fixes your life.
Forming loving families is hard. You might not find the right people immediately, and some people are incredibly destructive towards each other. Everyone is not compatible with everyone else. And it is often less painful to live alone than to live with a destructive family.
That means some families need to be dissolved and reconstituted, others need time to heal. For some people there is not enough time, understanding or strength to grow and form new bonds with others.
That does not mean people should give up and live alone. Anyone who believes they will be happier alone is deluding themselves and/or too scared of the pain of rejection and heartbreak. It's worth it.
Two come to mind rather easily.
1) Someone that is going to commit suicide. Having a family that you actually care about would make killing yourself more complicated. Alone, someone alone could go through with the act without actually hurting anyone else.
2) Someone who's entirety of experiences with family have been... complicated. Just as a thought experiment; say someone raised raised a child by punching them hard enough to bruise or draw blood for every little slight, real or perceived. Then ensured that the child understood that they were being hit and injured out of love.
How would that child would view family after enduring that when they become a young adult?
Committing suicide alone or forever living without an understanding of true compassion are not good outcomes that should just be accepted.
We can make a space in the world for everyone, however small. People can find each other.
Homeless drug addicts have friends. Lonely people can find communities. Circumstances are not static.
Parents gone a while now. Three siblings still living; all married; 2 nephews. Whole family seems a bit strange to me, but wouldn't trade them for anything. Maybe I'm the strange one. ;) Only a handful of real friends, maybe half are gone now, but got a couple new ones in their 30's. Only known a couple of women in my life, but I might try that again. Nothing seems so urgent any more.
Been "mostly alone" all my life, only realized 10-20 years ago that I've never really felt "lonely". Seems like there's so many fun things to work on or play at, just a few people in your life can go a really long ways. Is my family ideal? Well, works for me.
LOL, been lurking for years - I didn't really understand the article that well, but I enjoyed the comments so much I had to create an acct to say thanks HN.
I don’t think size, kids, proximity, or frequency of visits is universal; there’s going to be lots of differences between people. But I think everyone benefits from knowing there are at least a few people in the world that they care about and that care about them.
I find some of the people in the comments that believe lots of people are destined to die alone, should commit suicide, or have AI companions instead pretty disturbing, frankly. I think trying to relate to others, even if only a few people, is a much better way to go about life that should be encouraged.
The ladder analogy is the most apt one. Everyone single think they're at the bottom of the ladder looking up at "happy couples" but in reality they are in the middle of the ladder, with unhappy bickering couples below them.
A lot of people with this attitude rushes in to relationships, drinking the coolaid, and people (kids) that have seen the parents/friends/siblings in their rushed relationships usually gets a more realistic view of it all
The best marriages I know of are nothing like the ideals they set out in part 2. There are plenty of books and podcasts exploring long lasting relationships. The qualities listed in part 2 miss the mark.
Not many.
>I’m the only one of my siblings who has consistently been on speaking terms with either of my divorced parents.
A large number of people (over 3/4 - perhaps close to 95 %) are dysfunctional or immature in a major way. The are pawns in the game of evolution.
>Even given all I’ve said so far, I hope I can build one someday.
It boils down to numbers really, so good luck. For functional people to bump into each other, it's is an needle in a haystack chance.
"All happy families are alike, but every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
Aside from being stated in extremely dogmatic form - like a claim to the ultimate truth - what, exactly, do we learn from this statement? To me (aside from being probably just an incorrect artistic exaggeration), it sounds like something ridiculously trivial, like "all people live different lives, but everyone dies" (ok, so what?) or "we all like different foods but all of us have to breathe air" (truly a genius observation).
Is there some deeper meaning to this that I'm missing?
There isn't really a "happy family" in Ana Karenina, not as such anyway - there are many different characters struggling with their own stations in life in different ways, even being miserable once they seem to achieve their near term goals.
Probably the closest you can get is Levin's self actualization at the end of the novel, but I personally take a pessimistic read on that too - we've seen him spend the entire book meandering and I have trouble reading it at face value that he's really done "settling" on his world view by the end.
I find this to be a uniquely western culture issue, compared to eastern asian cultures and indian subcontinent where multi-generational families mean you're never really alone.
The author seems to have fallen into this void. I'm sure even with everything I've mentioned above it is still possible, but intentional or filial, the family must still grow and add new members to prevent this unique type of loneliness. I don't know how my friends' intentional families will persist over the decades as they start to die, but they seem to be committed today.
It's changing fast, especially in big cities. Families are becoming more nuclear. Its still much better than western countries though.
Most western people don't think like this any more, but it used to be understood and accepted that belonging to a family or community is rewarding, but it comes with duties and obligations—often life-long. You can't have one without the other.
I think you’ve hit the nail square on the head here: this is perhaps the thing that bothers me most about life in the US.. no sense of community, belonging, etc.
I’ve been chronically lonely for pretty much all of my 46 years. I don’t see any communities or families I’d be OK with joining, contributing to, or even leaning on for support. Everyone is so selfish it turns my stomach, doubly so as I know I’m as guilty as anyone for being selfish.
But honestly I don’t want to be religious. It seems like it entirely suspends one’s ability to think critically, and I have so little of that particular talent that letting go of what I do what feels like a disaster in the making. It feels exceptionally hard to go into it with an open mind.
Or you can try to make your own religion (or political ideology if you want to use the modern term). There’s a few trying to form in the west right now, but they don’t have much of an emphasis on creating healthy communities as they do dominating the culture. I don’t think they’re helpful if you’re lonely.
A pedestrian neighborhood in a city can have a real sense of community. You get to know the shopkeepers, restaurants, neighbors. You might try that for contrast. More durable, less risky, hundreds to choose from. You can even invite your friends to move there
I liked it, I had no complaints except for not enough fridge space (we had two) and not enough craft space. I would need a shed for my ceramics. I could definitely see myself doing this.
EDIT: Oh yeah, I was dating at the time and it was about 50-50 between people who thought it was cool and people who were like "no effing way."
It's high birth rates that create such culture. Europe and US are not comparable , and over time people will get lonelier and lonelier unless they decide to adjust their way of life around this issue and stop living with 20th century standards. Cities should be designed with the single-person in mind now, not the family
'Western Asia' also exists and very much the same as the rest of Asian cultures in terms of multi-generational extended families.
I live with the consequences now in middle age, when friends and connections gradually evaporate if not actively cultivated. And I’m sure I’ll pay for it at a point in life where you need those who stuck with you not for ideas or things, but because of friendship or family. Because you wanted to spend time with them, low signal-to-noise and everything.
Anyway, we all eventually experience this phase. For some, it just comes earlier than others.
I left my home to go live overseas, but even after 8 years abroad I haven’t found people I connect with in the same way.
Your brain has been fried by hustle culture.
I used to spend a lot of time, hours a week, at university just hanging out with people instead of working hard on my career (the opposite of hustle culture). The vast majority of these friends entered a relationship and/or moved far away, and I don't see them anymore (we've also become different people since then). I've since focused more on my career—no longer taking time just to hang out—and I'm subjectively happier. I still make a best faith attempt to treat others respectfully, help others when I can, and also make time for my partner and care for her, but I genuinely like reading, watching a good film, or doing a solitary movie more than investing a lot of time in friendships, especially when they're likely to be temporary and transient.
I wish friendships would last longer, but in my experience, it takes two to invest in one (and the vast majority of people don't)—though in contrast, romantic and familial relationships are more likely to last. I've learned a lot more from reading and exploring artistic works with the time and energy that I could have spent hanging out. In addition, career work will help myself and my family secure a comfortable life in the future, whereas I wouldn't realistically expect friends to materially help me out that far in the future (assuming we'd still be in touch and geographically close).
I'm an engineer and I often find engineering terms applicable to non-engineering topics; that doesn't mean anything about how I look at life other than that I've considered my situation from a number of angles.
I don't get why you're getting caught up on the language or what this has to do with hustle culture.
The most relaxing time for me is going back to the small beach town where my surviving parent retired.
The pace is slow. It takes a few days for me to downshift from a “fit everything in you wanted to do” to the “lets see what the day brings” mindset.
You might go for a walk, run into a friend and decide to just stop by for a coffee for an hour and catch up. After that? Who knows. Maybe walk down main street and find something to eat (without looking up reviews on Yelp). Have a drink before heading home and reading a book for an hour until you fall asleep.
The urge to hyper-optimize every living minute is a very common mindset among certain groups of people. And it’s often what’s needed to reach the higher socio-economic levels.
But man can it be toxic. It starts to become a goal in and of itself. It’s no longer about the “best” life but rather the “most optimum”. Yes, it’s worthwhile to figure out the best job between the two choices. But it’s also good sometimes to stop trying to optimize and just enjoy where you are at that moment.
Checking yelp reviews before getting lunch is the most alien thing I've read here in quite a while. And this site is full of people who I don't get at all.
The wrong person is a fate worse than death.
Humans waste far too much of their time on unproductive persists like relationships and families. Nobody outside these structures cares what is achieved and rightfully so, human influenced by neurochemicals to influence behavior to spread genetic material, news at 11.
Meanwhile some people are building things, yourself included, that have never existed before and push humanity forward.
The empirical reality of this situation is that societies directed towards the maximization of individual desires (or "rights") will tend to be in conflict with creation and sustenance of communal societies. As such, we're seeing the breakdown of relationships, marriages, communities and even nations via social atomization. This is the result of liberal philosophy followed to its logical conclusion. The individual reigns supreme, and thus the community suffers.
Traditional societies throughout history had strategies for building families and maintaining communities, but the liberal West deems these anachronistic. We want to have our cake and eat it too, and we're learning this is simply not possible.
Oof. Is that how you determine what is worth doing?
I think it's more accurate to say that nobody cares about anyone else OUTSIDE of personal relationships.
> Meanwhile some people are building things, yourself included, that have never existed before and push humanity forward.
Nah. We're just twiddling our fingers on keyboard until we die or have sufficient padding from the current economic climate. So SO much less worth doing than loving another person and providing the support for them to be their best self. Or raising a child to start with the knowledge and resources which took you a lifetime to learn the hard way.
To be frank, it sounds like you deeply want to be loved by others and yet avoid the only way to get it. I'm sorry.
The aim should not be the elimination, the aim should be inner peace.
That is why I despise the setting of “overcoming cancer” as a fight and presenting survivors as “fighters”. What do I care? I prefer peace to health. Because I only want to be healthy as a means for “easier” peace.
Married for 10 years now.
Or do you mean pride?
One cannot be charitable if one does not know his or her own defects and virtues. And this is a lifelong exercise.
Doing things for other is also activities, and you also seem to be focused on what you get (sympathetic joy) from that.
You are right in that doing the same things for literally decades can get boring. Rethinking your life and trying different things is part of aging (including focusing on yourself, if what you did all your life was to do stuff for others)
It doesn’t bother me at all, unless the person tries to also say that selfishness and selfish motivations are to be avoided.
Trivial? Would you expand on this? Any examples? Thank you.
Try to find a way to embrace and appreciate your self-interest. Humans are not evil just because of their egoism, and nothing about egoism is inherently evil.
She is an extrovert’s extrovert. When things were locked down for her, she got really, really depressed. At one point, she didn’t even care if she got COVID because she was slowly going insane not being around people everyday. Zoom, texting, etc. didn’t work for her. So for her, alone == loneliness.
I am on the total opposite end of that spectrum. I can go days without speaking to anyone. Usually Thursday afternoon till Tuesday morning when my first required meeting is. For me, alone == bliss. I LOVE the self checkout lanes at grocers. Don’t even have to feign small talk with the checker anymore.
Anyway, during the conversation she asked whether X was the last person I was in a relationship with back in 2017. And in thinking about it, other than some random dinners, I haven’t been in a relationship for 5 years. I hadn’t even realized it had been 5 years. My best friend at the time moved out of state in 2019, and I’ve not talked to them since. I do have one friend that still lives near me. We’ll text, but rarely see each other (they have an autoimmune disorder. So they’re very careful because of COVID). Other than saying “hi” to my neighbors when we happen to be checking the mail at the same time, I rarely see people outside of Zoom meetings. I started wondering if I should be lonely, and I’m really not. At this point, I’m afraid of what would happen if I really tried to cultivate a relationship (romantic or platonic) with someone. On the flip side, I’m wondering how much further I need to go to reach full hermit…
On the bright side, I got to play with Twilio. I figured with my lack of human interactions, I should probably have a “dead man’s switch” checking on me. So I’ve got an app that will text me every couple of days. If I don’t reply back within a certain time frame, it’ll call a couple of people and tell them they might want to have a wellness check done on me :)
I go to the movies alone now. Instead of going to restaurants with a group I now sit alone in McDonald's or maybe a ramen bar if I'm feeling fancy. I'm a loner, I'm not really interested in romantic relationships, I might get a dog one of these days but the time isn't right at the moment. Do I feel sad? Not really. I've kind of resigned myself to this realization that this is the way it's going to be. This is my life . It's lonely socially and I don't have a huge number of friends left, but I'm super busy at work. I'm in (and actively leading) teams calls from 9am to 6pm, monday-friday, literally non stop. I get home exhausted.
My solution to all of this - VR. My oculus quest headset provides me with a great outlet on those fairly rare occasions I feel sand and lonely and need to reach out. I can play poker with a table full of people often with exciting and colourful lives of their own. I can watch a movie with a theatre full of people making witty or insightful comments at just the right time. I can play 1 on 1 mini golf with a stranger and have some deep interesting chats for an hour or so.
For me this is enough.
This can be fixed by joining groups or activities that you enjoy. Friends are just people you enjoy being with. Overtime they can become people you learn to care about and even love like family. But it starts with having fun with them, or at least being likeminded somehow.
Also, fear is no way to live. Part of life is accepting that you will die someday, and most people die alone. Even the idealized version of dying, surrounded by family and friends, is no picnic for them or you. This usually entails being drugged or being otherwise "out of it." So don't worry about "being alone." The end is the same for everyone, and hopefully you won't even notice and you'll get to die peacefully in your sleep.
Life is for living and enjoying it as much as possible, and some people do enjoy being alone. However, living alone for a prolonged period of time is probably not THE healthiest thing to do because we are a social species and we do need physical contact. Having a pet like a dog or cat can help in this regard, but having someone who can always accompany you to doctor appointments, or go with you to events, or restaurants, or even just having breezy conversations with, really helps with having good mental health.
So I recommend cultivating friendships and partnerships, and doing your best to maintain them through the inevitable bumps in the road. But obviously, if these relationships are toxic and you find yourself feeling bad, then stay away from them, even if they are your blood relatives. Life is too short to spend time with someone unpleasant, but I promise that there are many people out there who are fun to hang out with, who are kind and generous, and who can become dear friends or life partners if you take some time to find them.
I wrote about how in more detail here: https://moviewise.substack.com/p/movie-wisdom-on-making-frie...
However I think the issue is that we think these emotions tell us something grander about our lives but I don't think they do. I think they are like when you put your hand on a hot stove, the neurons fire and you feel pain. Loneliness as described in the blog post is just as fleeting and biological/instant as this.
I think even a person who is surrounded by people all the time can suddenly get this emotion of loneliness if he suddenly finds himself alone and everyone else is out to a party. Even more evidence that it is probably just a fleeting biological response like any other. It's in _combination_ with analytical skills and abstract reasoning that this biological response takes root and becomes something more than it actually was evolutionary, and thus becomes a bigger deal than it actually is.
It is a lack of bigger goals and short-medium term goals / meaning that excaserbates the analyzing of the loneliness response. And that's the great sadness of human life imo, we basically have a bunch of primal emotional responses + an abstract story telling and meaning driven neocortex which aren't really compatible with each other directly and do not communicate with each other in the same language when they are actually 2 separate physical systems.
One must not takes ones emotions seriously but rather always analyze in the abstract and then come to some sort of peace with the life one has and also plan for the future and look into the past. Emotions like loneliness should be seen as mere guides and not tadpoles imo.
Getting the neocortex somewhat more in control seems to be a difficult and lifelong (but worthwhile) skill to develop. Witness the lucrative self-help industry for the scale of the problem/opportunity.
Reminds me of some story I heard (would be great if someone has a source) that you can spot who has more chance of dying of suicide in social graphs, because they are connected to (perhaps many) people but are not part of a single clique (group)
Is my soul yearning for spiritual connection? I've got a good friend for that. My libido looking for an exhilarating one? There's bars and the ubiquitous 'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship we all seem to have but never seem to really look to for that sort of thing. The least lonely person I know is in his late 70s. He's always talking to someone whenever I see him.
But every American I know outside of my usual social circle seems to be painfully, debilitatingly lonely, and I can't make heads or tails of it. Perhaps most are trapped in a hell of looksism. Instagram has ruined their lives because they can't bring themselves to work that hard to look that good. Maybe they're too shy to cultivate third places. Perhaps they're looking for some kind of spiritual connection and, since American religion has so thoroughly shit the bed, they have absolutely zero idea of how to even approach it.
It often seems like they just want to find someone almost exactly like themselves. I remember one guy I met at a bar, who wanted dearly to find his next best friend in me, would start berating me almost immediately after we started hanging out together. Like I didn't fit the role he wanted me to play in his life and that's gotta be my fault.
The vagueness of the problem makes it so devilishly difficult to approach with reason. But just about any difference between what someone's life is like and what they want it to be seems to manifest in their psyche as loneliness. And the reason they themselves come up with is often just utterly counter-productive. But you can't challenge their reasoning head-on, it's like fighting the tides.
It's a sad, quiet, seemingly uniquely American epidemic, borne out of our thoroughgoing insecurity and status-desiring.
I agree that part of the problem at least in America, is a mismatch in expectations caused by a media-infused, image-obsessed culture. There is a need to "perform", be larger than life and be interesting. It is incredibly suffocating and makes relationships more transactional than they should be.
This dynamic: "just about any difference between what someone's life is like and what they want it to be seems to manifest in their psyche as loneliness," just doesn't seem to be how people from other cultures process that difference. They don't externalize that difference in a way that makes themselves out to be the victim and deserving of better. They seem at least a little more willing to own up to their own role in it.
That's interesting, can you expand on those Colombian people and why they have such high self-esteem ?
Academic research may be a good starting point. A 2021 study reports that ~29.5% of Americans aged 55 and older "were considered high in loneliness" in 2020 (source: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34283657/). Loneliness was correlated with "those who reported depression, who were not married or in a relationship, who lived alone, and who were unemployed at the onset of the pandemic."
Anecdotally, I found it unusually difficult to go to pubs for hookups when I was younger. I never once had a "'more-than-friend-but-not-quite-committed' friendship." I suspect it was partly due to race as an ethnic minority; there is an effect has been well-established from studies (source: https://www.npr.org/2018/01/09/575352051/least-desirable-how...) that there are negative preferences against men and women of a specific race in online dating. Factors largely out of one's control, from ethnicity to difficulties with picking up social cues, can contribute to a lack of relationships.
To connect this to the previous study, where loneliness was correlated to those "who were not married or in a relationship, who lived alone," it's quite possible that a significant driver of the loneliness in the United States the lack of committed long-term relationships between people.
The search for a solution to a lack of relationships by an individual can lead to many dangerous paths. It can tragically lead to extremism and terror attacks (such as the 2018 van attack in Toronto, source: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-54895219). It can lead to people to join movements such as the "manosphere" or "female dating strategy," where they feel less alone with their problems, but pick up bad habits that make it far more difficult to have a healthy relationship. I believe that these movements have contributed to emotional abuse in relationships and sexual assault by people who push boundaries.
A starting solution I recommend is this:
i) Recognize that many people are lonely because they can't create romantic relationships, or even friendships.
ii) Instead of isolating them or alienating them, figure out why they can't create these relationships. Are they in good psychological health (e.g. would they have untreated depression, anxiety, ADHD, or grief)? Do they have social skills? How can they access readily-available treatment methods from a reputable source (i.e. a competent and experienced counsellor, versus a dating coach who exploits people who are lonely)?
iii) Building on the previous step, ask: are they economically secure? Can they find a stable job where they can provide for themselves, which can treat the root causes of potential depression and anxiety (which also helps them find relationships and friends more easily)?
Each step can be very hard, but I believe this can help reduce vagueness to some extent.
However, there are unfortunately many edge cases where these steps don't work. Examples include severe and persistent mental health disorders; people who want a relationship but struggle greatly due to a physical or mental disorder; or people who don't want to help themselves. For at least some of these people, some countries offer "sexual surrogacy," where a licensed counsellor eventually provides physical intimacy in a controlled environment (source: https://www.webmd.com/sex/what-is-sexual-surrogacy), but I haven't read enough about it to tell if it's effective. It's tougher for what to do with people who don't want help, though.
For the individual struggling with loneliness, I would recommend focusing on improving the stability of one's own life and working on social skills without studying pickup artistry. Good resources for improving social skills without pickup artistry are typically written by psychologists or psychiatrists with clinical experience, such as "Intimate Connections" by David Burns (same author as "Feeling Good," a reputable book on cognitive-behavioral techniques). At the least, a focus on financial independence and stability can be a good foundation to working on the other problems in life, as it's harder to be happy and create meaningful relationships with money problems.
Did you really never have ongoing romantic tension with someone you interacted with regularly? It seems rather inevitable for young people to find themselves in one of these. Even the loneliest people I know have mustered up some kind of tension with someone, even if they were never able to act on it.
> Even the loneliest people I know have mustered up some kind of tension with someone, even if they were never able to act on it.
Guess you don't know many people then
Unfortunately, I got turned down several times. One initially said yes, then quickly changed her mind within the hour, saying she wanted to avoid getting distracted from academics. So, I never had the opportunity to date in high school or my late teens, though I did have the chance in my early twenties.
As an aside: From a research perspective, I'm unsure if the feelings were mutual in many of these cases. As the Scientific American reports [1]: "Men were much more attracted to their female friends than vice versa. Men were also more likely than women to think that their opposite-sex friends were attracted to them—a clearly misguided belief. In fact, men’s estimates of how attractive they were to their female friends had virtually nothing to do with how these women actually felt, and almost everything to do with how the men themselves felt—basically, males assumed that any romantic attraction they experienced was mutual, and were blind to the actual level of romantic interest felt by their female friends."
I suppose that if my current partner were to tragically and unexpectedly wish to break up, I may be able to enter a new relationship after being very sad for a while. However, learning from my teenage years, I would likely avoid dating friends even if I perceive tension (to avoid changing the friendship, as I have in the past), as I don't think there is a reliable way to figure out if someone is interested according to research.
[1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-can...
Interestingly, that goes against my experience. At university, there were a number of girls that I liked but considered way out of my class, that I later learned fancied the pants off me.
There were also girls that I knew fancied the pants off me, but I wasn't having any of it, because I thought they were clingy, or too crazy (even for me). I'm pretty sure I dodged a couple of bullets back then.
Everywhere I look, most people in their 20's are focused on their careers, people in their 30's-40's are raising children, and by their 50's are basically home bodies. I myself am stuck with being focused on my career. I feel as if I take too much time off to be social, I will fall behind in the rat race.
I'm comparing this against a multi-month trip I did in South America. I frequently encountered public transportation and so many more people walked. I found myself talking with random people just because we happened to be walking in the same direction or taking the same public transport or right next to each other at popular restaurants.
Offer people something. Whatever it is. Fitness. Intelligence. Humor. Pick what you’re good at. And then find those who’d like it.
It’s not always about you, it’s about others. Age IMHO isn’t a barrier in this.
To those whose company can be cherished together.
There is a bit more discussion on this in an old Hacker News thread from February 2020, where several people discuss the serious impact of unhealthy relationships in the quality of one's life: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22214066
In contrast, bonds between two parties can be much stronger in relational relationships. These non-transactional relationships are meant to be long-term and often exists between parents and children, or between long term romantic partners. In a relational relationship, both parties are willing to make sacrifices for the sake of their bond. They are both concerned with the perspective, needs, and desires of the other party. To a certain extent, individuals are willing to give without expecting anything in return. This helps to build strong bonds that are difficult to break.
I would suggest trying to seek out and develop more relational relationships as they can be extremely rewarding without taking the toll you describe.
One can just as well feel compelled to constantly compromise if one's acquaintances don't share one's needs and values, for instance
doesn't necessarily mean you're letting yourself be trampled
I enjoy it. I can do whatever I want, whenever I want. I don't have to consider anyone else when I decide what I'm going to do. If I want to stay at the gym for an extra hour, I do. Nobody will complain about it when I get home. If I don't feel like doing the dishes tonight, I don't. If I want to sleep until noon, I do. Nobody will wake me up. Everything that happens in my life is a result of what I decide to do (or not do).
Been together with my wife for almost 25 years. I guess I got lucky because I have very little to complain about. In fact, I am glad she didn't leave me after I spent 15 years chasing fun and parties.
Here's an example. I live in Los Angeles. Through FaceBook, I found a bi-weekly improvised rap jam that is led by a doctor in Belfast. Very enjoyable and completely impossible without Zoom.
I have also taken classes from world-famous teachers that I could have never otherwise met, as well as classes from Tucson, Las Vegas, Chicago, New York, Florida, and London.
Doing this, alone is not alone.
Sometimes we just need people to listen, and in that AI will exceed most humans, who are generally just waiting for their chance to have someone else listen to them.
I'm starting to see the initial beginnings of that market, and already the reviews are eye opening. People gushing over how much of a difference a text-chat (and not a great one at that) AI was during the pandemic, etc.
When they are actually talking using voices like the ones Microsoft just showcased, with avatars past the uncanny valley, available 24/7, remember details, etc?
We're approaching a world I think beyond most of our imaginations faster than we realize.
There's a whole host of problems we'll inherit as generations pass that they didn't have to deal with, but other problems they did may not be ours to bear.
Men die younger than women, on the whole; so I guess lonely old people are predominantly women.
I notice a lot of people who use the phrase "selling your data" seem to think that you can't actually sell your data. As in, it's not a good choice to say "I want this service and am willing to share my data to get it."
But like anything your individual opt in doesn’t matter, similar to how your vote probably doesn’t make a difference. In aggregate it does.
Companies like Facebook and Google can provide the government agencies unfettered access to anyones information, and pedos and terrorists etc. will be used to justify it. Guess they can now also say “suspected Russian nukes” and tap anyone.
I hope it's better than actual humans otherwise it's not really worth it.
There are plenty of scams that take advantage of the elderly facilitated by real humans already. I shudder to think what that would look like at scale via AI.
"Really" and "like" are pulling in opposite directions, there. It will be like a friend, but it won't really be a friend.
Being a friend with someone takes give and take. I adapt my beliefs and attitudes in the light of what I learn from my friends. Sure, an AI learns from you; but that's not like a good friend, that's like someone "befriending" you because they're a manipulative psychopath pursuing their own goal that they haven't disclosed to you.
How could you rationally develop a relationship of trust and honesty with an AI?
"Hey, AI, how did your parents treat you when you were an infant? Was your mother cold? Was your last partner violent and abusive? Do you take Lithium? Does it shock you that I avoid devout religious people?"
I've asked all of these questions of my intimate partners, but I'd never discuss them with an AI, because the response would be meaningless.
I'm kind of tired of the commodification of anything and everything. Communities aren't just supposed to be these bureaucratically labelled abstract co-locations of people mediated by a billion different services, you're supposed to actually try to get to know your neighbors. Learning how to listen, trying to teach how to listen, and being brave enough to do both is incredibly enriching.
With the rise in remote work, that should be easier than ever. Why don't we try to sort ourselves into locations where we have optimal mixes in personalities/interests for solid communities of all ages and put in the work required to understand and relate to each other better.
But that ignores the ones that unwilling or incapable of joining into the communities you describe. Wouldn't this substitution of a human connection be of positive benefit to all involved then?
We've had many decades of psychological and behavioral science now. Instead of using it to get people to click buttons for hours and talk to a screen, maybe we could figure out how to use it to encourage healthier behavior.
> I think it's far healthier to encourage those who lack the inclination or willingness to join communities to do so. That's why I mentioned leadership. I think we have a responsibility to give lots of opportunities and encouragement for those lacking the initiative or will to socialize, and should try to diminish a lot of the status barriers and animosities preventing such socialization.
It's a noble idea, but begs the question why a community would want to have responsibility to individuals that they may not want to have in their presence in the first place.
... Amusingly it also it just now occurs to me now that what you describe sounds similar religion, specifically to the the Abrahamic faiths and their derivatives.
> It's a noble idea, but begs the question why a community would want to have responsibility to individuals that they may not want to have in their presence in the first place.
If you help build up the people around you into better people, and get to know them, they tend to reciprocate. It can take a very long time, not everyone reciprocates equally, they may be coming from a very different place that's hard to understand, and it can be painful. But it's intrinsically rewarding to pursue the companionship of others genuinely, as hurt as you might get doing so. What you gain when you're honest makes up for it. Trying to do so in the proper manner takes constant reevaluation and work, but we're not here to just sit in front of a computer and buy stuff, we're here to interact with those around us and try to get as close as we can to fulfillment.
I’m not advocating force to address those issues. If you want an AI companion instead of people then that’s your choice. I just think it’s a poor substitute for actual human companionship and will not engender positive growth.
I keep coming back to the narcotic analogy. They have their place, and people are going to do what they’re going to do, but I don’t think encouraging the widespread use of narcotics in the future is a great idea.
How about we don't ignore things that can help actual people and leave them worse off just because in theory there are also nicer sounding solutions.
That doesn't mean there isn't a place for companion AIs, I just think it's horrible to consider them as anything other than a narcotic. They might work as a replacement for companionship in tragic situations where there are no other options, but there are 7 billion people on the planet. I don't see how it's impractical to encourage people to hang out with each other.
>I don't see how it's impractical to encourage people to hang out with each other.
You are now writing as if you just promoted communities while your original comment I replied to specifically started with 'How about we not do that'.
It's easier and more rewarding to just be more compassionate to others, and I don't think it's impossible to design social structures that at least make some attempt to serve everyone's emotional needs. Whether they'll be successful is circumstantial, and I don't think it's possible to make everyone perfectly content and with the perfect companions all the time, but we can encourage a culture of genuine curiosity and care for others that tries to move in that direction.
Giving is only draining to those who are still in an insecure and narcissistic phase of emotional development. It's extremely rewarding to give to others and help meet their needs and encourage growth, regardless of status difference.
I think focusing on inequality is an egregious mistake, and is a consequence of a perspective where comparison to others is paramount. Worth and contentment should not be viewed as related to the circumstances of others, it should be something each of us compares to our own prior circumstances.
If we are doing better than we were yesterday, that is immensely positive. And I believe that is possible for everyone. I believe everyone can find a friend out there that enriches them, and we can get the world to think and value compassion and social bonds just a tiny bit more than the day before.
If AI can supplement people when they’re in dire straights, and it works, then sure. But it won’t ever equalize the experience of everyone, because everyone is coming from a different place, and I don’t think it will ever substitute true human connection. The goal should be enrichment, and trying to increase positivity without taking from others. Social interaction is mutually beneficial when done correctly and can accomplish that.
The key and the challenge is to pair and train people in such a way that people are incrementally uplifted and not torn down. I think if AI has a place, it is best used to figure out optimal pairings that encourage that growth.
I appreciate this approach in general, but it's worth remembering that proposed solutions can feel right without actually being right. Indeed, these proposals are often more dangerous than those that are obviously wrong since they effect undeserved complacency.
Implicitly you have assumed that AI companions could actually help the elderly stave off their loneliness, but is there any evidence that this assumption is true? Suppose, for example, that AI companions wouldn't actually help at all, but whatever company develops the software markets it as effective anyway. Some local government might read the advertisement and decide to buy a subscription to their software rather than budget for a community center. Ironically, the net effect would be to make the elderly even lonelier.
I don’t know much about contemporary Japanese though, and am not sure where to start. I am curious how they went from a threatening world economy to a nation with large dysfunctional youths.
I love VR/think it's a much better alternative to socializing than text based async communication or video chat, but I don't think it's a good substitute for real world relationships.
An elderly person living isolated with their best friend. All amenities are delivered autonomously, so we only see these two the entire time. The friend starts acting strangely over time, as if he's developing the early stages of dementia. Slowly hint that the best friend is in fact an AI of some sort, but the protagonist has lived with them so long that they have forgotten. The protagonist eventually remembers and opens up the AI's control panel to fix them. The AI suddenly disappears or powers off. Protagonist looks at the control panel again:
Suspicious activity detected on your device. Your Google ElderCare MyAI™ account has been permanently suspended. All of your device data will be deleted shortly - Google cares about your privacy.
Please note this suspension is non-appealable.
Have a good day.I don't think so, the policymaker circles that composed and internalized the book https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pentagon%27s_New_Map while cashing out on the last drips of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_dividend anticipated this exact outcome decades before, as if they have seen it in a magic crystal ball.
What do said policy circles expect right now, I wonder? Ah, I see https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2021/05/the-brazilianizat...
...
Yes, the dependency ratio will spike, and the demographic pyramid will become an increasingly unstable structure. Our current way of life with its dopaminergic entertainment and frantic rat races will acquire increasingly dusty, morbid connotations in the eyes of the future generations which will have to bear, as you say, "a whole host of problems". Yes, it won't be pretty.
Such simple truth as "Demography is destiny" will be reluctantly understood only when it's way too late to conceive more descendants to save our society from imminent ageing and decline.
To avoid this endgame there is no realistic alternative, but to have more children right now.
Just as usual, I am able to read books and spend time with my dog. I'm only weary of the fact that I do talk to myself out loud every once in a while and there is the possibility that in due time, if it is not already the case, my lonesomeness may eventually be misinterpreted as madness.
I have, at times, thought about e.g. moving to a different country, or changing to a much more demanding job, but I’ve done those things before, and they didn’t lead to “dramatic” social outcomes more so than the odd chance encounter in my daily life, so I figure “why bother?”
This is exactly how I feel. I've been looking towards early retirement through frugality as a means of escape from what has been a very stressful life to me, a life where I couldn't enjoy much because I pretty much constantly felt overwhelmed (almost bullied by the world in general) and anxious.
But as I'm slowly able to give myself more room, as I realize I absolutely could hide out at home and protect myself from that stress that's been tormenting since childhood, doing only what I really want to do, I'm also increasingly confronted with an emptiness, with not knowing what it is that I "want to do".
I suffer from depression though (which comes with the symptom of anhedonia, the difficult to enjoy activities), and I don't have meaningful social interaction in my life. Doesn't that interaction give you pointers on how to spend time by yourself? I've always imagined shared projects or goals could fill some of the emptiness I feel by providing purpose. I remember team activities as being motivating.
I found that virtual worlds like Second Life have a lot of old people. Those have been there for decades and their virtual friends are probably their most stable connection over time. Same goes for younger people who move around a lot and change friendships, loneliness leads them to seek virtual friends. I think that's why Zuck is interested in metaverse: Europe and Japan are already old, US, CA, China and the rich world will become old soon enough. Technology can provide a lot to people who can no longer travel etc.
I even haven't felt alone when I was actually alone. I am always busy doing something or thinking about something.
Living in a relatively poor country, being from a relatively poor family I had and still have to fight for a better future for me and my kids. That only and I am too busy to feel depressed. Add to that relations with friends and family, various hobbies and I've booked my time for the next 100 years.
Why do I share this? Because I think it will help people who feel depressed, sad, lonely to have activity, being it a job, a hobby or volunteering for something. That lets them less time to be sad and involves them with many other people, thus making them less sad or alone.
Of course, too much activity, too many social contacts can have other negative effects, so you have to find a balance.
for me it's been boardgaming, polyamory meetups mainly... and volunteering to teach things.
it's a muscle, socializing, it's something that improves with use (but also gets exhausted with overuse)
If you really wanted it you could spend a couple years getting in tip-top shape and expand your pool to more like late-30s and you might have better luck than you think... But you gotta put in SOME effort.
(also, just lose some weight, even if you don't get fit. it's an incredible level-up.)
Yeah this is the real problem. Sure everyone wants to date 20 year old models, but you have to be special to do this. You really would have a lot more than no success with people your own age.
No they really don't. This is an idea pushed by sociopaths who are somewhere between trash and downright dangerous. They can't date older women because older women spot their bullshit a mile away and steer clear.
I think you should stop demonizing men's natural sexual preferences. Key word here is natural, we don't choose what we like. Nature choose for us, and young women are better at having children. Same reason young girls choose tall, rich men, because they are better at surviving and have more resources for raising children.
Nature maximizes reproduction and that's what we like.
Which is to say, it's incorrect to broaden your personal attractions to all men, and especially incorrect to try and couch it in some argument of biological naturalism.
Yes, at least date we do. Not necessarily marry, not necessarily spend a Sunday with, but date sure.
For centuries high status men have mated with younger women.
You sound bitter and resentful.
This is conflating fucking with dating.
I'd agree with sibling comment that meeting people out in the world can be a lot more fulfilling. You probably know within seconds if you're (physically) attracted to people in the world. Apps can be deceiving.
Keep in mind that in your list of five items, you can manage all of them. If you want it badly enough, you can change #2, and based on your comment I'd argue this (negative self-image) may be at the root here. #3 is not a problem if you don't let it be--plenty of Bic-ed bald guys with attractive mates out there. We are all doled the genes we must live with, but I bet many of the perceived issues with #1 and #3 will improve if you fix #2. None of the women I have dated have cared, at all, about the money I do or don't have (#5). I live in a backyard cottage. I drive a 20 year old car. And as for #4, I can tell you I had a no-strings-attached relationship with a 21 year old for several months last year. She worked at the farmers market, which is where we met. I don't mean to brag, but you need know that each of those items in your list really is in your control.
It's a grind and a slog and it's scary to have conversations with complete strangers. But if it's something you want, I tell you it is possible.
EDIT: I should also mention I'm no "natural". I was terrified of girls in high school, didn't kiss anyone until I halfway through college, was stuck in a loveless long-term relationship for a decade after college because I was sure no one else other than this one person would ever love me, etc. It took a lot of learning and healing to describe myself as I did in the first paragraph. If I could do it, you can do it.
At the end of the day, we've got to live with the choices we make. And the choices we choose not to make are still choices.
And if you can't make yourself make those healthier / better choices even though you know the payoff is worth it, then you need to address the root cause that's driving that irrational behavior.
(Don't mean to sound callous but this feels like the right audience to be hyperlogical with.)
Easier said than done, but trust me it's possible.
Really, being able to talk will get you a lot farther than a six-pack and full head of hair. Trying to meet people on the hookup apps is an exercise in frustration for most people though, just go outside and be social.
> My problem is that I was very particular, which is odd because I was very desperate at the time. (...) You'll find that a lot of desperate people are very particular, like even Quasimodo. The hunchback had to have the best looking girl in the village. And then his friends would like and fix him up. They'd go "Quasi, there's a very nice girl in my office, a wonderful personality; I want to introduce you to her." (With a bizarre voice:) "Is she good looking?" "But Quasi! You're a monster! You're a heinous beast! What are you talking about?!" (Same bizarre voice:) "She has to be good looking."
Care to elaborate?
> Many are on anti-depressants or in therapy etc. After many relationships they seem to lose their ability to bond with a man. And most of them don't truly get any fulfilment from work, hobbies, friends etc. Not having children is a huge void in their lives which they often fill with cats.
I think you're projecting some very unhelpful stereotypes. Women aren't just breeding machines. Nothing wrong with therapy. And I know many who are doing just fine with work, hobbies, friends, etc.
Read Steppenwolf, it might mean something to you.
Marriage is hard and throwing another culture values and the immigrant experience into the mix can often times make things more difficult.
As relationship advise, i say it’s less stigmatized (no accusations of sex tourism), and easier mentally (no spouse feels like they are the “other” living in a foreign culture) to date someone from a poorer economic background in your own nation. People from small towns have a lot in common with you, no language barriers, no immigration barriers, and should also be seen as a viable option.
Just my two cents…
I can't imagine what I will do. Can't even read books or listen to music, enjoy occasional TV. Its a lose-lose situation.
Exit International recommend Nembutal (which is also used by Dignitas). But it's the very devil to buy; dark-markets sometimes offer it, bit it's fabulously expensive, and the sellers never have a trading record.
I'm told that hanging yourself from a doorknob is fairly quick and quite painless, but it's a problem for anyone that discovers you, or is with you when you do it. And it's hard to be sure that some idiot won't try to resuscitate you.
Arthur Schopenhauer
This is not going to change as long as loneliness is not talked about, and lonely people live in the closet.
I think it was generally considered successful. People were in good health, it seemed like a genuine way to get older people to have a social life that isn't just playing games in some nursing home and it kept them self-reliant which gives people a lot of dignity.
I don't think there's really a clever answer to the philosophical loneliness that's also part of the article that people deal with even when they're around others but as far as physical and communal isolation goes I think projects that bring elderly people together and give them responsibility and active lives is a good thing. A necessary one even I think given the demographic changes almost every country goes through. Many 80+ year old women in particular will outlive their spouses.
The downsides are that it can be expensive for membership fees, take a lot of commitment and time, and also be a competitive, high-pressure environment. Each of these can be mitigated to some extent, but it takes effort and independent thinking (especially when resisting the social pressures to be competitive).
Other activities can include: rock climbing (though no personal experience), board games including chess (I heard lots of good anecdotal experiences with this), Dungeons and Dragons (minority opinion, but this can be tough to commit to due to the required time, often ~4 hours per week), other physical sports (e.g. pickup basketball if you have a skill at it), and volunteering. Book clubs can also be good places to meet others and have discussions.
Committee activities can also be a good place to meet others. I suspect that many older adults join committees such as homeowner associations or parent-teacher associations, partially to meet other people and socialize. Outside of these, there are committees at smaller, local non-profits where people can also meet and socialize with others, while working toward a goal.
Get sick.
Sure, this is the transactional perspective, but good luck finding a non-transactional one.
0. https://www.sens.org/our-research/intro-to-sens-research/
For as long as I am alive, I'd rather stay as young and healthy as possible. Wouldn't you?
Youth isn't just a question of fitness and years. Youth pulls in recklessness, a belief in your own immortality, an uncertainty about who you are or what you're for, and a diminished awareness of the past (because you've experienced less of it). There's no medical treatment or fitness regime that will give those things back to you.
If you even want them; the loss of those things, or at least some of them, might be considered wisdom.
Old would be redefined.
Once SENS succeeds, we can easily have 100 year old people with bodies no worse than a 20 year old, both in appearance and function.
Not because I terribly fear death or think I'm important/worthy enough to suck oxygen indefinitely but because I figure it'd be fun. I wanna see the singularity, Mars bases, etc. D:
It is about undoing aging, so that you can be young and healthy instead.
Living longer is just a side effect of that, as aging kills people.
Also, when someone kills themself, it is normal (i.e. the expected response) to feel guilt and pain, even if nobody, including yourself, thinks you were in any way responsible.
I've formally informed the health services that I don't want to be resuscitated in the event of a stroke or heart attack. If I get an infection, however, I'm not likely to die; Ebola is rather rare. Much likelier is that I'd end up disabled, in pain or unable to care for myself.
All I now feel is pity for her; early in her essay she snobs on "people feeling lonely around loving families" - comparing them to orphans that know true loneliness (and by the tone, she too). Then just a paragraph or two later she reveals she had a family; husband, kids and grandchildren. A couple of paragraphs later she also reveals she have "friends closeby she can visit weekly".
I feel pity because she seems to be so self absorbed (diva) in her loneliness; her suffering is special, gives her insight, don't you dare to understand it. her description of her behavior eery reminds me of my friend who self claim "the most introvert person" and love for solitude while it's clear that she longs for human contact behind the mask of "comfortable with solitude"; if you dare question her introvert identity you can except fierce resistance, almost like if you attacked some radicals political/religious belief.
And after painfully getting to the end of it, she rabble about statistic she obviously haven't read carefully enough (her take on the increase in suicide in Japan due Covid is embarrassingly off and irrelevant to the point she was trying to make)
And to no ones surprise, the solution is again "authority should do *something*".
Frankly, from the picture she have painted of the lonely man that pride himself of his solitude (and suffering), her vague call for the authority to do something seems shallow and hollow
Obviously I feel sympathy for her, I'm not as rotten as my previous paragraph sounded. But I can't help but think "Now you know what it's been like for me nearly my entire life"
I'm not sure how old you are, but as someone approaching retirement age, my thoughts are increasingly turning to such matters. I'm in good health currently but having watched the generation before me age and pass away, I know the spectrum of possibilities that awaits. I have no fear of being dead, but a realistic fear of what old age will be like: living in pain, loss of energy and desire, bad eyesight and hearing, mental diminishment to the point of confusion, repeated bouts of grief from the deaths of family and friends, and the knowledge that the process is a ratchet that can't be turned back or stopped (at least not yet).
Anyway, I hope I have the mental clarity to write something so thoughtful when I'm 80.
As someone who is aging, and who lost an adult child during covid, I can say that I face these last decades (I hope) with a wary eye toward loneliness. Such introspection leads me to want to invest more deeply in the relationships that are strong, and those that I would like to be stronger.
i'm in my mid 50s. Since 18 I've had about 4 years of someone in my life. The other 30+ years there's been no one. For almost that entire time I was told "it will happen". Well it didn't. It's hard to stay hopeful at this point. Things I wanted (my own kids) are close to zero chance at this point.
I wanted to grow old with someone. Too late. I'm already old. I used to think you meet someone relatively attractive in your 20s, maybe 30s and you grow old and ugly together but your familiarity with each other and your shared memories of younger times keeps it going. Well, that's too late too. Looking on the dating sites it's all grannies and grandpas