The new and upgraded Framework Laptop | Hacker News Reader

The new and upgraded Framework Laptop

community.frame.work

1,680 pointsetbusch738 comments

I recently bought a framework laptop for a daily driver when I'm not on my desktop. For context I was running NixOS on an old 2014 macbook air, and I work on the glasgow haskell compiler in my day job so I do a lot of CPU heavy tasks.

I've got to say, as long as these things are being produced I'll never go back. They are just too good and I cannot recommend them highly enough. One of the things that didn't occur to me before I bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch the side the power port is on. That may not seem like much but it was a revelation the first time I sat on the couch and thought "huh I really wish this was over on that side....wait a minute!".

I've also had absolutely no problems with NixOS on my machine, even my apple earbuds easily connect via bluetooth, something that I never quite got working on my macbook.

10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new version is on the way.

You can basically do this with macs if you still use the usb-c charger. Even with the new ones they still charge through those ports on either side.

But yeah, being able to swap those ports is great. I'm feeling the pain of having only 1 hdmi out on my laptop and the ability to just add one on sounds amazing.

Isn't there an issue if you plug in on the wrong side? I remember something about CPU and throttling.

That was the Intel models.

Do Macs still favor charging via the USB-C ports on the right side? IIRC charging on the left caused overheating/throttling. I'd be interested to know if the Framework also favors a specific port for charging.

Oh Idk actually. I was happy to learn it still works on the magsafe ones so I can still use the old charger though.

This sounds like a thing that happened on the Intel ones. The M1 laptops have a large cooling overhead that would render the point moot.

One other difference is that the M1 MacBook Pros only have one port on the right side and two on the left now, which has been annoying a few times

That was an intel mac thing.

https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/363337/how-to-find...

Not anymore. The latest Intel and all of the M1 based ones work fine from either side with no heat issues.

I can't even imagine how good these'll be on Alder Lake... might have to grab that i5 model.

Agreed! Got one from work, and it's a beast on Fedora 36 with the 11th gen. Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are surprisingly fast. So cool that we'll actually be able to update the innards in a few years as necessary to keep it feeling fresh.

Edit: A small but nice design feature is the light that comes on to imply whether the usb-c port is charging properly. Coming from a mac that removed this feature when usb-c charging was introduced, this is a huge luxury.

I just played through Mass Effect 2 & 3 on mine (Intel i5) with no problems, using Wine. When I do upgrade my main board, I may get the i7 for better graphics performance.

Another huge + is setting battery charge limit with a console command (1). When I’m connected to power at home, I run `ectool fwchargelimit 60` to keep the battery at 60%. If I’m going out, I set it to 100% in the morning and let it charge.

1: https://community.frame.work/t/exploring-the-embedded-contro...

This doesn't seem useful based on what I know about LiIon batteries: they don't benefit from partial charges, since their capacity loss comes from discharge behaviour.

LiIon batteries apparently benefit a lot from not never being at 100% and 0%.

I think there is a reason why car manufacturers over-provision (i.e. the better designed electric vehicles never charge to real 100 %)

Source: https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-808-how-to-prolong-...

Exposing the battery to high temperature and dwelling in a full state-of-charge for an extended time can be more stressful than cycling.

Most Li-ions charge to 4.20V/cell, and every reduction in peak charge voltage of 0.10V/cell is said to double the cycle life. For example, a lithium-ion cell charged to 4.20V/cell typically delivers 300–500 cycles. If charged to only 4.10V/cell, the life can be prolonged to 600–1,000 cycles; 4.0V/cell should deliver 1,200–2,000 and 3.90V/cell should provide 2,400–4,000 cycles.

On the negative side, a lower peak charge voltage reduces the capacity the battery stores. As a simple guideline, every 70mV reduction in charge voltage lowers the overall capacity by 10 percent. Applying the peak charge voltage on a subsequent charge will restore the full capacity.

On my thinkpad, I've found it most useful to additionally set a start charge threshold much lower than the charge limit. My use case only sees a handful of minutes without charger per day. With charging starting at 40% and ending at 80%, the battery gets charged sometimes as seldom as once per week.

The other way to look at it with regards to the framework is to just not worry about it. Replacing the battery is trivial and only $60 https://frame.work/products/battery

Once the ecosystem picks up speed and there are multiple vendors, perhaps the price or even capacity will improve. Although this may be possible with the thinkpad as well.

I’m curious: why do you set the max battery percentage?

>Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are surprisingly fast. So cool that we'll actually be able to update the innards in a few years as necessary to keep it feeling fresh.

Isn't Intel graphics always been the best bet for Linux due to their excellent driver support? I'm excited for their discrete GPUs just for the sake of proper Linux support.

I have an 15W haswell machine in the corner decoding & encoding multiple HD camera feeds from motion on integrated GPU using intel_vaapi while the CPU is free for postgres, redis and a qemu VM - 24*7.

Intel GPUs have been the best bet for Linux laptops for a long time (over 10 years), but for the last two or three, AMD has been just as good. Just avoid dual GPU laptops ("Optimus" or whatever), it's very problematic on Linux and somewhat problematic even on Windows.

I do have a laptop with one of those early intel/AMD 6000 series dual GPU laptops, I remember setting up GPU drivers for it (AMD GPU) used to be troublesome but nowadays even Ubuntu sets it up by default and the devices could be switched with just DRI_PRIME.

But of course the performance is awful and intel GPU is better for most tasks; Newer AMD GPU and open-source drivers are likely much better as you say.

> Even the discrete-ish Iris Xe graphics are surprisingly fast

Anyone have any idea how well this stacks up against RDNA2? I'd love it to be close enough to not have to worry much about, but from what I hear AMD have it significantly better

FYI, we've added support for the framework to nixos-hardware. I appreciate any feedback or improvements anyone has! https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...

Thank you!!!

Will you guys ever produce a "wide screen" version of your laptop? If so, you have another customer.

Obviously manufacturers haven't been eradicating useful screen ratios for no reason, I've just never seen anyone publicly admit to being the cause. Would you also like to take the blame for glossy screens, chicklet keyboards, and non-replaceable batteries?

> Obviously manufacturers haven't been eradicating useful screen ratios for no reason

For me 16:9/10 is way more "useful" than 3:2/4:3 ever was (had that for ages, wouldn't go back). I love being able to have two different things side-by-side, e.g. an editor and a terminal, on a 13" screen, at a font size I can still read well. I definitely wouldn't buy a square-ish laptop screen.

And I'll take anything that's more square than 16:9 personally.

16:9 is great if I wanna watch movies all day, unfortunately for the apparently unaware laptop industry, I need to also work a little bit sometimes.

Thankfully Apple never jumped on the stupid 16:9 bandwagon with their laptops. Now if only some monitor manufacturer would wake up and start making 27"+, 16:10, 4K+ monitors with 120hz+ refresh rate then I'll literally instantly buy 5.

> Apple never jumped on the stupid 16:9 bandwagon with their laptops

This is not entirely true :) The MacBook Air 11" was 16:9.

Fair enough, and that may not be the only machine for all I know, but what I meant was that in general Apple tends to go for 16:10 which I love.

A poor cope for being forced to use a media consumption format. In order to make full use of the ratio ill-suited to productive work, you are compelled to adopt a specific workflow involving two windows being open at all times. Great, that stackoverflow search page can stay open. Do yourself a favor: pivot one of your cursed resolution monitors and open a source file on it in full screen. That is how many text rows you lost in the war on general purpose computing.

I actually hate that I don’t have many options for glossy screens for the desktop, who can I blame for that?

Widescreen laptops were a phase, but they're rapidly falling out of fashion.

Being able to see more text (webpages, news articles), and longer lists (email inbox, code) is more important to more people than having a laptop that can watch movies. Split-screening on a laptop is rough no matter the dimensions. In the best case scenario you have a wide laptop and you see two panes, but a miniscule amount of rows on each pane.

Squarish laptops have been a breath of fresh air for me.

Thank you for doing this! I've been following different posts on NixOS and how different folks have managed to get things working on NixOS.

The new revision with the 12-gen chips does it fix the complaints people have had about loud fan noise?

I am super on the fence between this and an arm mac - this is super customizable but the arm chips in the air are silent — no fan.

If you’re on Linux, this does the job https://community.frame.work/t/linux-fan-speed-controller-wi...

Thank you!!!

Yep. Plan to run Fedora 36

Ditto.

This is interesting: over the last several months, a friend has been running NixOS on a Framework and has been told by Framework employees that they can’t help him with Linux kernel issues because he’s using an unsupported OS and he’s also had lots of complaints about battery life and power management.

I love the idea of the Framework, but it seems to suffer from all the issues that made me switch to MacBooks in the first place.

doyougnu was previously running NixOS on a Macbook so their bar for "working" is probably much lower than a normal person's.

I'm on Windows, but if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat. I don't know what it would take to have sensible power management on Linux without major issues.

> if a Linux could give me reliable power management I would switch in a heartbeat

More than `powertop --auto-tune`?

Just tried on my Framework with Ubuntu 22.04:

$ sudo powertop --auto-tune modprobe cpufreq_stats failedCannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_results.powertop Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d RAPL device for cpu 0 RAPL Using PowerCap Sysfs : Domain Mask d Devfreq not enabled glob returned GLOB_ABORTED Cannot load from file /var/cache/powertop/saved_parameters.powertop File will be loaded after taking minimum number of measurement(s) with battery only Leaving PowerTOP

powertop --auto-tune is kind of annoying to use, it usually winds up tuning something that shouldn't be and there's no convenient way to filter what it does, and then suddenly your mouse stops being responsive if you leave it alone for more than 2 seconds.

Also on a laptop you might have stuff being plugged and unplugged all the time. Tbh it's kind of surprising systemd hasn't grown a "powertop that remembers things" arm.

I get six to eight hours on my Thinkpad, running Arch Linux.

This did not happen out of the box. I think I got like two hours of battery life before I began tuning parameters. As usual, the Arch wiki is an excellent resource even if you're running a different distro: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Power_management

That's impressive. I've done the equivalent of tuning everything and still wound up with battery lifetime half of what it should be on Windows.

There's also specific programs that are really bad. Edge used to add 2-4 hours extra battery life when using my Surface to read PDFs. If I used Firefox, it was shorter by a very noticeable amount.

Does straight chrome have similar battery performance?

Chrome was worse compared to MS's Edge, but Chrome based Edge seems worse than previous Edge. My testing isn't as exhaustive on the new Edge.

Huh. Wonder what the secret sauce is that apparently they can't release upstream. Open source FTW?

Try Pop OS.

On System76...

Pop OS on a Dell XPS is giving me good battery life. If you already have your machine and files are backed up, worth a shot.

I didn't have the same experience with pop on a newer XPS. I wasn't able to get more than 4 hours on a full charge.

I’m on a 2020 XPS17. At the time I was having a hell of a time and it took almost a year for everything to be supported out of the box.

Why do people keep doing this to themselves?! I really don't get it. Just buy a laptop from a vendor that actually supports linux, like System76.

Because there are countries out side of America. You may have heard of them.

They also can get these devices. You may have heard that.

Of course, depends highly on the value of "they". Because the "you may have heard..." pattern is worse than useless, here's actual info to compare and decide whether either of these may work for you:

https://knowledgebase.frame.work/de/in-welche-lander-und-reg...

https://system76.com/shipping

Sadly, protectionism is a thing. Launching in new countries is hard and expensive. Perhaps there's a company in country that would do it better than some giant international megacorp.

Framework does not ship internationally yet. System 76 does.

But if I’m buying a laptop for work why would I get a laptop from a manufacturer that has no presence in my country? What am I going to do when things go wrong? Unfortunately, it may be better to take a punt on a manufacturer with global presence.

Then you get what you choose.

"Good battery life" is not my measure of good power management. I can leave my windows laptop sitting out, it will sensibly turn off the screen and eventually hibernate, I don't need to worry about it. A Linux laptop will need babying when it's not plugged in.

Not necessarily

Yes it’s horrible when I’m not plugged in and you have to shutdown before closing the lid for transportation.

But if you want off windows and aren’t willing to go Mac, you take what you can get.

> Yes it’s horrible when I’m not plugged in and you have to shutdown before closing the lid for transportation.

Why? Does it not hibernate?

No it does not. If you’re not careful you’ll open your laptop bag to a hot and barely touchable laptop.

Ouch.

They usually suspend when the lid is closed by default rather than hibernating.

Gnome has power management features like that, didn't even enable them. It's the most installed DE I think, so your characterization of Linux is pretty off.

I like Gnome and its newest incarnation Gnome 40, but at least on Nixos it has some issues so I often rebuild to an i3-based environment instead.

Have a look at thinkpads. I used x280 and x1 over the past 5 years with more than a week’s worth in folded lid sleep state.

I own/have owned multiple Thinkpads, a couple of which run Linux. The power management on Linux is bad.

battery life with that laptop was always better on the mac, but I regularly got 4-6 hours on that machine for years, first with Arch linux, and then with NixOS.

Framework boards has its own compilation of battery tweaks for linux, though I'd also recommend the Arch wiki another user posted in this thread.

https://community.frame.work/t/linux-battery-life-tuning/666...

What counts as sensible for you?

Experience differs depending on hardware. My Dell XPS 13 got 7hrs out of the box on Manjaro, which I tweaked to get to 8.5-9. On ubuntu I didn't have to bother with the tweaks. That's comparable to Windows on this device...

We would love to be able to provide more personalized service for different Linux distros, but we unfortunately just don't have the necessary expertise to be able to do that well.

For Linux-related service requests, we first ask that folks try an Ubuntu 22.04 or Fedora 36 Live USB (the distros we have done the most internal testing with and created setup guides for) to be able to determine whether there could be a hardware issue. Once we have verified there isn't a hardware issue, we ask that folks post in the community thread for their distro for help: https://community.frame.work/c/framework-laptop/linux/91

In practice, this works well because we have an extremely helpful and engaged community (including in many cases maintainers for that distro). Additionally, because that debugging happens in the open, any answers from it are publicly visible for future users to see.

All of that said, we'd love to find better ways to provide deeper support ourselves and are open to input. A more official path would likely still start with the most popular distros.

You know, not to promote NixOS too much but the reproducibility of it makes this specific OS especially easy to support. There's already a community driven hardware support module to use [1]. If you look at it it doesn't hold a lot of things though, since NixOS is quite bleeding edge (Wi-Fi already supported) and you Framework is otherwise quite Linux friendly (Please make a 1080p-ish display tho, until Wayland is 4 real).

LPT: NixOS installs by themselves aren't good for much, use NixOS-hardware and look into power configurations if you have specific requirements.

1: https://github.com/NixOS/nixos-hardware/blob/master/framewor...

Yea and the best part was that installing NixOS was dead easy. I followed Graham Christensen's instructions[1] and had nix create a personalized image with the latest linux kernel and some other stuff. Then I just flashed and booted from that image after partitioning. Honestly it was dead simple and its so hard to go back to the ad-hoc system config style a la Arch linux and other distros.

I'm probably a lost cause now because I think I'm going to convert my entire raspberry pi cluster to NixOS from ubuntu.

[1]: https://grahamc.com/blog/nixos-on-framework

I'm daily driving NixOS both at home and work, but to be honest I don't really use the Nix features all that much, I just have a system that's predictable.

Every now and then I spin up an OS container w/ Ubuntu or the likes, forward X if I'm doing something that isn't supported in NixOS yet.

Ubuntu 22.04 fixed none of the problems I've had since 21.04. Not a single one is better in any respect.

Even "deep" suspend saps 30%+ of battery overnight. And it won't wake right.

If this is the best testing you've done, people just shouldn't buy this thing.

I replied to one of your other comments, but you should follow the latest version of the Ubuntu 22.04 guide, setting nvme.noacpi=1, with which we see around 0.8%/hour in s0ix: https://guides.frame.work/c/Framework_Laptop#Section_How-to

This is why most people just buy a MacBook: it should not be necessary for the user to read, do, or configure _anything_ to make suspend mode work properly and not drain 30% of your battery overnight.

My MacBook hasn't been suspending itself properly for ages. Love it when my bluetooth headset decides to connect to my MacBook that's been closed and unplugged for 3 hours.

Not that Windows is any better.

My work-issued X1 Carbon with Windows 10 came with busted sleep out of the box. So yes, Windows is no better.

Fucking "connected standby" is the worst thing to happen to ACPI since ACPI. In every OS it's a battery draining backpack heater that provides features nobody wants. In every OS you'd better hope the firmware still supports hybrid suspend or suspend-to-hibernate.

Windows XP, my laptop hibernated when lid was closed, very simple, very reliable.

Things have just gotten worse since then. :(

I understand the sentiment, and for users who don’t want to do any configuration, we do have systems preloaded with Windows 11 that work out of the box with everything you’d expect a laptop to do. WSL has even gotten good enough to be a reasonable substitute for many people. For folks who do want Linux, in practice we have not seen following the steps in the setup guides be a constraint for usability.

This is because the people who want a Unix-like operating system that doesn't require manual following of guides after purchase to get basic features working all self-select out of your user pool and go buy a MacBook.

I've set aside this afternoon to update my macbook because it refused to do the 12.4 update by itself. Then it refused when I asked it to restart manually. Then it looked like it worked and was restarting but actually it just kernel panicked or something I'm not sure. Then it wouldn't acknowledge an update existed. Then it wouldn't check for an update.

So now, I'm watching it download and prepare an update in real time in safe mode, while doing absolutely nothing else, because apparently a light breeze will knock this update process over. Preparing the update has so far taken 30 minutes. No doubt installation will take another 30 mins to an hour.

"Just buy a macbook" doesn't work anymore.

Sucks that you had this issue, but the 12.4 update went smoothly for me (unattended) on both an Intel MBP and an M1 Mac Studio. I’ve never experienced an update issue on the Mac (Windows is an entirely different story).

To be fair, do macbooks and frameworks really share a target market? Apple defines itself by "do it the Apple way and everything just works." Framework is all about "customize it your way and it works." The Venn diagram in my head doesn't have a lot of overlap.

If you want the Mac experience on a Linux device, perhaps you'd be happier with an ubuntu preinstalled Dell or Thinkpad. If you do things the ubuntu way, I'd say the Apple "just works" guarantee applies.

I tested this yesterday.

After being off for 24 hours, it dropped from 100% to 47%.

That's more than 2% per hour, and still unacceptable for a device that's supposed to be sleeping.

It doesn't work.

I have 3 other machines running the same version of Ubuntu. Not one of them would have lost more than 7% in the same amount of time.

Yeah, honestly when folks roll over to Nix, it's just not a walled garden anymore and there are too many deviations for a support team, it really needs community/forums where people talk to you in a way that teaches as you go.

MS and OSX are locked down enough that you need to be fairly clever to begin with just to get off the beaten path.

I think community is always the way to go when heading down the Nix road, you all are doing an incredible job with it!

I wondered. It looked very Windowsy, and I'd guessed the Linux support was non-existent. Sounds like I'm going to stay away then.

The article says:

    We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that 
    Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware
    functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04
    also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working
    to eliminate that need. We also studied and carefully optimized the standby
    power draw of the system in Linux. You can check compatibility with popular
    distros as we continue to test on our Linux page 322 or in the Framework 
    Community 39. [0], [1]

There's semi-official Linux support it sounds like!

[0] https://frame.work/linux [1] https://community.frame.work/

"semi-official" is pretty far away from full support.

But just as far away from no official support, which is where we stand with most hardware that I'm interested in.

I don't get why you're not interested in hardware that fully supports Linux, and which comes with great support, but you do you I guess.

because this hardware is uniquely repairable and upgradable and it has better linux support than most of the industry. Unless you just want another rebranded clevo laptop this is very good.

Framework is not that different from System76 afaict. Except Framework has no CoreBoot and no Linux support.

First, "no linux support" is disingenuous. Second, with a Framework you can replace a USB-c port with a 1TB expansion card, or with an Ethernet port, or whatever is in stock. Those who bought the first model can now upgrade to a next-gen processor and/or reinforced lid, without throwing the whole laptop away. While System76 has surprisingly lower prices than I expected, it does not appear to have similar features--you still have to replace the entire system whenever your Pangolin becomes obsolete in 3 years. Framework was always more about sustainability. They didn't anticipate the demand for Linux/FOSS stuff, but they're adjusting for that. Hopefully some future motherboard will have Coreboot, and I can buy that motherboard and pop it in my laptop.

> First, "no linux support" is disingenuous

Nope. If I can't file a ticket or call and get an issue fixed, that's not support.

> with a Framework you can replace a USB-c port with a 1TB expansion card, or with an Ethernet port, or whatever is in stock. Those who bought the first model can now upgrade to a next-gen processor and/or reinforced lid, without throwing the whole laptop away.

Ah, that _is_ a great difference then.

Hopefully they get their Linux act together.

I did say most.

Next time I buy a laptop, it will be System76 or Framework, depending on which offering I like better at the time.

I don't get why the Apple wins? You'd have plenty of issues on a MacBook running an unsupported OS.

Same. Only things I wish were slightly better build quality and also I've had issues with Wi-Fi disappearing of late [0], fast battery drain during suspend, as well as battery refusing to charge from zero but there's a workaround involving a dumb USB charger. Kind of hoping these are just early adopter issues and that they'll be dealt with over time.

I really hope some community hardware experts can design more modules for this thing. I want an IMU+GPS+Barometer module among other things, but I'm a software person and don't know how to design PCBs.

[0] https://community.frame.work/t/wi-fi-disappeared-and-reappea...

I couldn't get Wifi working reliably when trying to use my Framework on Linux, even trying multiple distros, it would just disappear and not come back. Eventually I gave up and switched to Windows which has worked perfectly.

My main complaint are that the built in speakers are not good, they just simply cannot get loud enough. I'm also a little annoyed that I bought mine and a month and a half later the 12th gen version comes out. I would have happily waited for it.

> 10/10 This is damn close to my dream laptop and I'm excited a new version is on the way.

Agreed, with the seemingly-trivial but actually real elaboration: I’m excited because there’s a new version on the way and _I can decide, piece by piece, which parts of the upgrade I want._.

Having the upgrade be a literal circuit board I can swap out is 100% the value prop for Framework and I am likewise a very happy customer to see it, even if I’m happy with the current performance of my laptop and don’t need to upgrade.

To be fair when MacBook move to typec one can charge on both sides for many years, and I kind of look forward to a future when all port use typec But when it comes to inside Mac by no mean compares to framework

Except the M1 Air and 13 inch M1 Pro reverted to left side only (the new models with M1 Pro/Max chips have an extra USB-C on the opposite side). It's my only real gripe with the M1 laptops compared to older Intel Macs.

Of course, the Framework is the polar opposite of the M1 Macs' locked down "appliance" feel. I'm enjoying the progress being made with OpenBSD and Asahi Linux on the M1 platform, but the hardware itself remains impossible to upgrade or repair for mere mortals. The Framework is the pinnacle of truly owning your laptop while not sacrificing speed and a crowd pleasing design.

The Airs with usb-c always only had them on one side, didn't they? So did the low-end (two port) 13" MBPs; I have a 2016 Intel one with the same issue.

Does suspend work reliably? Is battery life ok? Does the trackpad suck?

I’m tempted but every time I’ve tried so far to leave Mac hardware I regret it - seems even harder now with M1 performance.

Still, the framework laptop is super cool. Might be worth trying anyway.

Yeah it's hard to beat just running linux in a VM on a Mac, especially with Mac's new hardware. Framework's modularity is probably the most compelling alternate value proposition, though.

Are you running a Linux distro built for ARM in a VM on Mac?

I still haven't been able to get suspend to work on my high-spec last-gen Framework, despite following all the troubleshooting and disjointed recommendations in the forum because the company won't just publish fixes for common problems directly.

Suspend will sap 30% of my energy by morning, even in "deep" sleep, and the computer won't wake properly. The trackpad will work intermittently or really fast after sleeping.

I have to turn the thing all the way off every time I use it. Which, alright, forced asceticism. Maybe a growth opportunity.

It's just frustrating and disappointing to find out so much work has gone into making a new one instead of fixing the pile of garbage I ended up with supporting them with the first version.

Thanks for the heads up - this is exactly the kind of thing I would be annoyed about if I bought it and why I abandoned laptop linux after college.

Maybe one day, but unlikely soon as apple just accelerates their lead.

I’m happy others are buying it though and funding them - I hope they get there.

One day? I have heard the same thing for almost 20 years.

Suspend works flawlessly on my Librem 15 for many years. Every new hardware needs some time to get a proper support with Linux.

> Suspend will sap 30% of my energy by morning, even in "deep" sleep, and the computer won't wake properly

That's just unacceptable: without wake timers (so outside "connected standby"), S0ix on a Intel 11th or 12th gen should use at most 0.7% of the battery per hour, so 7% over 10h (assuming you like long nights!). A well configured system should aim for about half as much, so between 3 and 4% over 10h.

You are getting about 5x worse power consumption during sleep than a normal modern system, and 10x worse than a well configured system.

Following our setup guides for Ubuntu 22.04 and Fedora 36 (https://guides.frame.work/c/Framework_Laptop#Section_How-to) we see around 0.8%/hour on 11th Gen and around 0.4%/hour on 12th Gen Framework Laptops in s0ix.

The consolidated steps in our setup guides on Ubuntu 22.04 and Fedora 36 should result in good standby behavior on 11th Gen Intel: https://guides.frame.work/c/Framework_Laptop#Section_How-to

Digging into the community forum should only be needed if you are using a different distro or if you want to micro-optimize beyond what is in the guides.

I still am unable to get resume from deep sleep to be less than 12-15 seconds. I dug the forums, contacted support, did all the things, but nothing works. If I go to s2idle it is instant, but that takes way too much battery.

Even with deep sleep the battery life feels very short. I haven't done formal tests, but I also have a macbook for work, and the difference is quite noticeable. I very often come to open the framework after a few hours of sleep and it just ran itself out of battery. This never happens with the macbook.

Don't get me wrong, I love the framework, and I love that it's "open", and fixable - so I'm willing to live with that. But just comparing it to another laptop, I'm not sure I'd give it 10 out of 10.

(I run archlinux on framework w/ 11th gen i7)

Are you running Ubuntu, Fedora, Windows or something else?

If what you're seeing is happening on one of those three that's bad, if it's happening on Arch or something - that's not really on them imo.

A question I should have asked before, but just assumed.

Suspend hasn't failed me yet but I run suspend+hibernate.

Trackpad seems good to me but my setup is not trackpad heavy. In fact I have a hotkey binding in xmonad that disables the track pad because everything I do is keyboard based including my browser. So I find I rarely need to use the mouse and it just gets in my way.

Battery depends on usage, with nothing (nothing is emacs daemon, wifi on, bluetooth on, xmonad and syncthing running, I don't use a desktop environment) running my battery reports a discharge rate of 5-6W, with normal usage (firefox and chrome open, slack and spotify open) the battery discharge is ~9-10W which is easily 6 hours, of course when I'm compiling GHC with all cores firing away this shoots up to ~30W and battery tanks to 1-2 hours but I can't really blame the machine for that :)

> seems even harder now with M1 performance

If it helps with the decision at all, certain 12th gen Intel mobile chips are competitive with the M1 in terms of performance. They do use more power to achieve that though if I remember correctly, but it's not an order of magnitude difference.

I'm stoked that mobile chips are getting as powerful as they are, even though I'm very much an Apple user. Higher perf low wattage parts are good for everyone, and competition will keep Apple moving forward which is good for me!

Don't most laptops with type-c power inputs support charging through any of them? My Asus does.

No, some laptops with type-C inputs on both sides only support charging on one side (typically marked with a power icon), because they don't want to route power input to both sides of the laptop. It adds a bit of cost and complexity.

Higher-end laptops either support it on all ports, or just put ports on one side of the laptop.

Its a shame they don't have the option of AMD processors, the rdna2 igpu's included in the new ones would be more than sufficient for me, whereas my understanding is that the intel igpu's leave a lot to be desired.

As game dev is one of the main things I do with a personal PC, sadly this means Im somewhat tied down to having a decent gpu. RDNA2 would be perfect for me, powerful enough to dev on and weak enough to test on (so I dont need a seperate low-spec machine for testing low-end performance).

It's really a deal breaker for me if they do not Start Offering Ryzen options for the Mainboard Module as Intel's Integrated graphics is currently lacking compared to AMD's Ryzen 6000 series Mobile APUs with RDNA2 Graphics(680M).

But I want Linux and the Blender 3.2 version released and all that ROCm/HIP support shipping with the Linux Distro/Kernel so I can Have Cycles-X GPU accelerated rendering for Ray Tracing/Rendering as Eevee lacks Ray Tracing currently.

It's just too bad the Intel and AMD have gone with some non standard GPU compute APIs instead of supporting Vulkan Compute. Intel's got its OneAPI while AMD's gotten its ROCm/HIP for GPU Compute API support as the Blender Foundation's no longer supporting OpenCL there for Blender 3.0/later editions.

AMD's Ryzen 6000 series APUs with RDNA2 integrated graphics are just great there for rendering capabilities but it's strange the laptops that ship with the Integrated 680M Graphics are mostly only available on laptops that also Include Discrete Mobile GPUs, as if the OEMs are force up-selling Ryzen 6000 based laptops that come with discrete mobile GPUs only, even if one can get buy with the Integrated 680M graphics alone.

But ETA Prime's YouTube channel has already Reviewed an Unnamed Mini Desktop PC Unit that sporting a Ryzen 6000HX series APU and that 680M integrated graphics but that product is not scheduled for release just yet. There is also a just released Minisfourm Ryzen 5000 series Mobile APU based Mini PC that's still Vega Integrated Graphics but that Mini PC also has a Radeon 6660M discrete Mobile GPU.

> One of the things that didn't occur to me before I bought it was that _because_ of the modular design I can switch the side the power port is on.

I'm not really sold on the integrated dongle design of the framework. Doesn't this argument speak more to the design of USB-C than it does to the integrated dongles?

I'd expect every new laptop to have at least one Usb-c on both sides by now.

It'd be great if they could make an extension with more than one port on it, they're wide enough for more.

Apologies, I am new to HN, could you please share a write-up of your experience and process in case you haven't already? I'm moving from an MacBook Pro to a Framework and before the MBP, I used Slackware as my daily driver. Would appreciate any tips on using NixOS as a daily driver.

I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years. I am loving it so far. I run Ubuntu 22.04 daily and have not had any issues with battery life or the lid (but I do typically leave it plugged in during lunch and overnight). The expansion cards are brilliant and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series. The aspect ratio is great for coding and I'm happy to see upgradeability is being taken seriously as promised. If I can get 5-10 years out of it like my old ThinkPads (all while upgrading piecewise along the way) I will be a fan for life.

I heard the keyboard is good, but do you mean the newer T-series chiclet keyboards?

Yes, I owned a t430 (and also a yoga 14) so the keys on the framework are a little wider. I can still feel the keypresses and they are a little "softer" and quieter. I use vim frequently so I do still miss the trackpoint and buttons at the top of the touchpad but it hasn't been as big of a problem as I anticipated. I am also still adjusting to the cntrl/fn placement but I think a lot of people swapped that in the bios anyways so it might be normal for others.

If you haven't already, I highly recommend configuring your capslock key to act as a control key.

I recently received my first framework laptop after being a loyal Thinkpad user for years.

I get excited about different laptops occasionally...and then I remember that I won't have a trackpoint if I switch to a different brand, and I get disappointed. Literally happens every few months.

Business class Dells and HPs have one too. Named differently because TM but good enough.

I would challenge you to find a 2022 Dell or HP with a trackpoint.

https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-840-g8-notebo...

Just got a new one from work. It's literally in front of me right now.

Granted the laptop's build quality is questionable (the right hinge's case bulges higher than the left) and the trackpoint has a tendency to get stuck to one direction.

I have a flagship HP Omen 15" gaming laptop. The case is garbage, but the screen and guts are good.

Oh man, I have an 845 g8 (840 with amd). I hate this laptop with a passion. It could've been such a great tool, but it's a steaming PoS because HP wanted to make a quick buck.

I don't have your hinge issue. But, as you open the display, the hinge gets below the laptop's feet. So now it slides around on the table. Which is so stupid, because this laptop doesn't have 4 feet, but 2 large ones, than run the width of the laptop. Which is fantastic if you want to use it on the corner of a table since it won't wobble!

Then there's the screen. I swear someone at HP wanted to see how shitty a screen they could get away with in a 2000 euro laptop (which is just a middle of the road config, mind you). On basic models, you have a 6 bit screen. On higher-end ones, they have this security screen thingy that massacres the viewing angles even when it's off. If you move your head around the tiniest bit (say while listening to music) the colors will perceptibly change. The colors are atrocious. And they don't even hide it! The specs say 72% NTSC (not sRGB, which is much wider).

Then you have your usual suspects with cheap laptops: the cooler is an absolute joke, the fan developed a horrible noise in a few months. There's coil whine that drives you up a wall when connecting a USB-C monitor + power.

On the plus side, the analog headphone out is surprisingly good. I don't hear any background noise, there's no whine when moving the mouse, and the sound is similar to my Retina MBP on relatively high-end headphones.

It also works very well on Linux, I'd say it's even better than Windows: I've installed a fresh copy of Windows 11 and I can't get the camera to work. It works perfectly on Linux.

Had a similar one and the trackpoint was a pain for 2 reasons. The shape was inverted, so you always touched a raised edge rather than surface. And the cap started coming off after a few months of use. Not a fan of HP's solution.

The HP EliteBook laptops still have trackpads. For example this one: https://www.hp.com/us-en/shop/pdp/hp-elitebook-850-g8-notebo...

Although technically released in late 2021, the HP Elitebook 855 G8 has a trackpoint.

Ouch, that hurts. It seems you're right at least about Dells, and HPs are going too.

Rumor is, some IBM sales rep somewhere at some point in history managed to put pointing stick into a procurement requirement for professional laptops, so to make only ThinkPads to be qualified. Many agencies are not capable of drafting good requirements on their own and such skewed requirements written by the winning contractor to exclude competitors are sadly common.

There is always a model or two in every laptop manufacturer's mobile workstation lineups with a pointing stick, for that reason. Not often is in consumer or non-workstation business laptops, and I was never impressed with one, but there always is one.

I just looked down on my laptop and my 2022 HP has a trackpoint, never used this feature though. HP Elitebook 830 G6.

Yep, the trackpoint (and buttons on top of the touchpad) are huge. I am a heavy vim user so those were extremely convenient but I have been trying to get comfortable with tap to click because that seems to be the way laptop manufacturers have headed (and I don't want my efficiency to suddenly collapse when I am put behind any other brand of computer). I am also still holding out some small hope that someone will come up with a way to swap it in to a framework laptop but I'm not holding my breath.

Discussion for trackpoint/touchstick here, in case you or others aren't aware of it yet > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...

Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff. Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards. I'd take a stupid one without touchpad at all as I just disable it anyway. That shouldn't be too hard, it's mostly getting the plastic right and adapting the connector to the motherboard.

> Yep, same here. And with increasing urgency as Thinkpad quality control seems to have fallen off a cliff.

Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux.

And the X1 Fold is a technical marvel (working on Linux support right now, if I'm successful it may become my next toy device to try to use Linux on as a daily driver)

> Framework seems uniquely positioned to fix this though. Someone just needs to do a compatible top cover that takes Thinkpad keyboards.

This. I will buy one as soon as they make a thinkpad like keyboard [+] or the possibly to disassemble and mount a genuine Thinkpad keyboard.

+ : A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following:

- PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever!

- PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too

- Delete above Backspace

- A trackpoint between the {G,H,B} keys with 3 buttons below the Spacebar: I'm not a trackpoint fanatic but I appreciate the precision it offers when I need it, and badly felt its absence when I tried a macbook (no, can't do!)

> Not really, they are among the rare laptops to still offer S3 for Linux.

The features are great but my complaint was about quality control. My T460s has had every single part but the chassis replaced, some multiple times, and still failed. A new T14s had to have the keyboard replaced because it randomly missed keystrokes. It then started having the screen randomly start flickering after resume. A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone.

> A new X1, top of the line 4K spec, has the internal screen randomly lose sync. The days of Thinkpads as dependable machines seem gone.

I believe it's all due to the large hardware and firmware changes.

Take for example USB-C: we don't know yet how to make study ports. My X1 had its motherboard replaced due to a dead port.

Or look at ACPI S0ix: it's only since last year that it's become comparable to S3 in power consumption (and S3 is no longer officially supported since Intel 11th gen)

The keyboard too changed: the layout is the same as the xx30 series, but there's less travel.

Likewise, the screens are now 2k or 4k with thinner bezels, and intel HUD ("Xe graphic") is quite different from the previous generations: even if it's handled by the same i915 driver on Linux, GUC/HUC are more important, and disabling PSR no longer makes sense.

Change is constant, but I believe pre pandemic and post pandemic Thinkpads are very different beasts.

I have had similar experiences with the X1 Extreme. The biggest issue I have had is that the repair process almost always breaks something new. The first one spent so much time getting repaired that I actually bought a second one so that I could at least have one functional laptop. The second one is a newer generation, but the quality issues are similar.

The sense I'm getting is that my 2014 T450s was one of the last few "acceptable" ThinkPads.

If I need a new laptop, it will be a Framework.

> A keyboard qualifies as a "thinkpad keyboard" if has all of the following:

> PageUp above Left, PageDown above Right: to me, that's the most important thing ever!

> PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too

That's not a proper ThinkPad keyboard at all. That's the new 6-row fake which has 10 fewer keys than a proper ThinkPad keyboard, which is this one: https://laptopkeys.com/uploads/704_1348778226_Lenovo%20t410s...

Youch does nobody else go haywire that Fn and Ctrl keys are in the 'wrong' spots?

There's a bios option to swap them, and custom firmwares doing the same for the thinkpad bluetooth keyboard

Ah awesome!

That is the correct one. FN first, ctrl next. See DEC, and IBM.

Personally, I like it as it is, but I can understand someone preferring the control key in the bottom left (though I would suggest using Caps as Control, in which case having Fn on the easier to reach spot and therefore first would still make more sense)

That's what available now: except on the T25, the old layout is no longer found on modern Thinkpads.

This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.

> This modern layout has advantages: for example, the space between the keys makes it more comfortable to use with nails, so I no longer have to keep them short.

Layout and the shape of keys are orthogonal concepts.

But yeah, you're right that there aren't many options these days, and the T25 is getting old. :-(

I'm curious what your use of PrtSc is that is that important to you. I don't think I've pressed that key since the 1990s. Am I missing out?

On Linux I have it bound to flameshot, which you can consider the equivalent of Snipping Tool on Windows or Cmd-Shift-4 on OS X.

It's a key that's very useful on Windows for screenshotting.

Personally, I use it for various color inversion profiles (ex OLED: make all the dark greys pitch black, night time: black and red) + for ShareX.

> PrintScreen between right Alt and right Ctrl: very important too

Please don't. Unless you want users of language layouts that make use AltGr to suffer.

Imagine typing away a message, accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr (actually SysRq), and triggering a sysrq reboot in linux. Regularly.

It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.

> Please don't.

Please do!

Because even with the most generous interpretation of your issue, it seems fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask, and asking instead for that to become everyone problem by having the key moved!

> accidentally slipping your finger from AltGr onto the PrintScr

What about learning to touchtype? And until them, typing in a well lit room?

> It's a choice between triggering crashes _all the time_, or disabling sysrq and never being able to debug the legit ones.

That's a false dichotomy. You are not triggering crashes, you are instructing your computer to reboot (sysreq B) which it does.

It should not be blamed on the computer, but on your lack of attention, and the lack of adaptation, so I'd even call that a self inflicted problem.

If you can take the time to configure your laptop to use a non standard layout, you can certainly take the extra time to learn proper typing instead of bothering the vast majority of those who are happy with this layout.

If you can't take that time, you can certainly apply one of the many possible counter measures, like moving sysreq to another key (cf dumpkeys and loadkeys), or just disabling the sysreq reboot function (0 disables sysreq, 1 enables it, but you can have a finer control if you read the documentation, ex: 128 is the bitmask for the reboot/poweroff) which would let you debug the "legit ones" - though if your linux has legit crashes, you may have bigger problems!

> fully self-inflicted, by a lack of typing skills compounded by refusing to configure the keymap or the sysreq bitmask

So, git gud? Sorry, I'm not buying it. People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect.

Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity), but requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it. Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions. And why should they? Machines should be made well in the first place.

Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.

> So, git gud?

If if's bothering you as much as you said, YES, stop complaining, and start acting on your complaints!

I've already given you all the pointers.

Now I'll help you more if you need.

> Sorry, I'm not buying it.

Neither am I. I get the feeling you want to complain more than you want to actually solve your problem. But as this is HN, I'm giving your comment the most positive interpretation possible.

> People have different motor skills, you know. You can't always make your body physically perfect.

So you don't want to try or, due to physical limitations, can't train better fine motor skills to be on par with about 90% of the regular population? Not very plausible, but why not!

Still, this leaves remapping Sysrq or configuring the bitmask, so I'll guide you though the keymap fixing if you need (even if I hope I won't have to, and that you'll be able to learn by yourself with the right pointers)

> Changing the mapping might work (although I doubt it, it's a deep kernel mechanism that probably avoids such complexity),

With computers, there is no place for philosophical doubts: you try it, and note the results of the experiment: either it does work, or it doesn't work. And if it doesn't, you can make it do so by reading the code, understanding then changing it.

So first, did you try it? If not, why? If you did, what did you observe?

BTW if you didn't, let me remove some of your doubts: dumpkeys and loadkeys are all that you need to change the sysreq mapping: the "deep kernel mechanism" links an action with a key through a table, defined in software.

This is just like how the same key can trigger a Y or a Z (US vs German keyboards) - and yes, you can change that too if you don't like it.

To have a look at this tablet, outside X or Wayland (ex: chvt 1), do:

dumpkeys > current.map

Edit it with your favorite editor to move Sysrq to where you want ex (ex: Insert key?).

You can also add any other changes you want (like, keep both your alt as regular alt, and instead make something else the 3rd level key - say the right ctrl key?)

> requires having the knowledge that it's even possible and how to do it.

Yes, this is called having agency. But here, I gave you the knowledge! Do you have another complain/excuse? Or are you willing to try to fix the problem now?

BTW regarding "agency", I don't use Linux as a daily driver- I prefer Windows, not just because it's less elitist, but due to the better terminal options and the greater hackability of its GUI. You don't have to use Linux if you don't like it! There are many things I dislike in Linux myself.

> Sadly, laptops don't come with the instructions.

You'll find most of the instructions you want (and more!) on the Arch wiki.

But if it doesn't exist or if it's not accessible enough, what about writing some?

Personally, I'm preparing a tutorial to help people with a specific tablet (great hardware, but bad software and configuration OOB, so most people hated it, which I find sad)

Maybe you could do the same, as other people may be inconvenienced by the same problem you are having, and would benefit from your solution?

> And why should they

Because you or someone else (say me!) cares enough to want to hack they hardware to do their bidding? Because it fun?

> Machines should be made well in the first place.

Different people want different things.

Some tastes can't be reconciled.

> Oh, and setting a mask doesn't help because b, c, e, i, k, o, r, u, all have nasty consequences.

Do you really want/need me to also write your bitmask for you? Select the ones you won't want, and mask them out

But again, you should take the easy way out: just remap Sysrq to another key that's away from your fingers, and call it a day! You could have done this remapping in less than half the time it took you to write this complain!

> start acting on your complaints!

I just did: I raised an objection to a bad idea for anyone who might be misled by it. Also I won't buy a computer with this flaw.

> So first, did you try it? If not, why?

I did not, because I did not know how. I also don't want to know how to alter my computer to achieve a basic minimum of functionality, because a minimum is what is assumed. Either the OS or the hardware should have sane defaults.

> Different people want different things.

I suggest you remap your keys (when you use Linux) to fit your special need then ;)

>> So first, did you try it? If not, why?

>I did not, because I did not know how.

Now you do

> I suggest you remap your keys (when you use Linux) to fit your special need then ;)

When there is no physical key, like to the left and right of the up arrow where pagedown and pageup would be, I can't invent them out of thin air.

There's typically the "emulate a right click" button or a Windows button in between AltGr and Ctrl. Those don't have the faults of a SysRq, so they seem like good candidates for a new hypothetical keyboard.

All of your attributes of a "thinkpad keyboard" are downsides that would make me less likely to buy it. Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible.

> Keyboards should be as close to 104-key ANSI as possible.

Yes, bring on the numpad on a laptop... not!

Form determines function: ANSI 104 had its time, when we were using desktops!

Now except for gaming and CPAs, numpads have outlived their usefulness.

I don't mean a laptop has to have all 104 keys. I mean the subset they do have should be arranged the same way that they are on ANSI 104. E.g., I want a laptop with keys up to 80% at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:ANSI_Keyboard_Layout...

And isn't Lenovo perpetrating a bunch of anti-customer, John-Deere-style lockdowns and rip-offs on their hardware?

We're on the same boat. IDK what to do honestly. Hope someone makes a keyboard with trackpoint for the framework.

Me too! And many others discussing here > https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026...

That's why I have high hopes for (something like) the Frame.work; it should be possible to just get another keyboard 'part' which actually does have a trackpoint (and even no trackpad but other stuff theoretically). Someone, either Frame.work themselves or someone else needs to make it, but at least it's possible.

Edit: I would pay for such a keyboard for the Frame.work; it would actually very much stimulate me to buy one! I really hope to see crowdfunding from people who just make a Frame.work part.

Seriously - or at least a mod kit to get it working with the existing keyboard. Hell there could even maybe be a universal mod kit to add to any laptop keyboard that is removeable and has the space!

I genuinely had no idea people still used those, or that they were still made with those.

It's one of those things that once you invest into the learning curve, you're a cultish convert (I certainly am one:)

What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?

I think they were competitive with old touchpads (and probably the ones you still get on cheap laptops) but I expect all the people above praising them have just never used a modern Apple touchpad. Far superior. It's not even close.

There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.

> What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?

They don't have a learning curve in the sense that it's difficult to make one functional, but when I did try a trackpoint I felt it terribly awkward and imprecise. I'm not at all surprised that there would be a transition period after which trackpoints at least felt better to use.

>>There's a good reason nobody makes them anymore.

But they do. Last I checked HP, Dell and Lenovo all had options for power users (not in their consumer / mid-range laptops though). Or at the very least, my last several and current clients have all sent me laptops with a Trackpoint from those three brands (and not to my asking; it's just fairly standard for mobile employees or enterprise customers to have Trackpoint included)

>>What learning curve? Isn't it just a joystick mouse?

well, no - to me, that's an inherent contradiction: Mouse and trackpad are both positional (as largely is trackball). Joystick, trackpoint are directional. They are fundamentally different paradigms.

In terms of learning curve, I do believe Trackpoint is less intuitive for most users, as it does have that different paradigm. I think it takes a bit of time to get really good at it - most people who use it for a few minutes feel it's inferior and clumsy. But I've had "races" with my colleagues with Macbooks, and spoiler - I'll agree it's not even close, but not necessarily in the direction you might expect 0:-)

(on aside, I do have a Macbook, it's about 4 years old. How new does a modern it need to be to fit your definition of a modern Apple Trackpad?

I've tried them, but they felt so clumsy to me that I don't see how I could ever be a convert. Trackpads, at least on Macs, feel precise and intuitive; I even use one on the desktop (unless I'm gaming).

I suppose a trackpoint might be useful if you really want your hands never to leave your keyboard, but generally I'm either editing text with emacs keybindings (where I don't have to use the mouse), or else I'm in a mode where having one hand off the keyboard doesn't feel at all hindering.

Maybe I could be convinced, but since they're hard to find these days and getting harder there wouldn't be much point (except to frustrate myself on the off chance I ended up loving them).

>>they felt so clumsy to me that I don't see how I could ever be a convert.

They do have a learning curve; but FWIW, I feel exact the opposite - I can achieve both lightning fast movement, AND pixel-perfect precision with the trackpoint (the latter I have never managed to consistently achieve on a trackpad).

(Note, for me, it's never a "Trackpoint vs Mouse". I'll use mouse 100% of the time when at my desk. When not at the desk though, it's "Trackpoint vs Trackpad", and for the amount of space it takes, the compromises it instills in keyboard layout and ergonomics, Trackpad never quite worked for me. On aside, I miss the potential of netbooks because a 10" screen with Trackpoint would be a formidable hyper-portable machine with today's ARM processors - but not if you need to reserve 5 inches for a trackpad :| )

> (the latter I have never managed to consistently achieve on a trackpad).

Ever try an Apple trackpad?

Ever tried playing something like (multiplayer) Quake with an Apple trackpad? I used to win online matches with the trackpoint. Once you get use to it, the difference in speed and precision is quite significant.

I have a 4 year old Macbook. Does that count?

And I'm ready to admit I am not an expert on it; my point is exactly that I am an expert on track point and it's awesome :-)

Yeah, a modern update of the Sony Vaio P would be amazing...

The Trackpoint seems redundant to me because I can manipulate the trackpad with my thumb without leaving the home row, and for me it's faster and more comfortable than a Trackpoint.

Using your thumb to control the trackpad works better on Mac laptops because the Force Touch trackpad allows you to press anywhere to click. Most PC laptops have a "diving board" click mechanism which means it gets progressively harder to click the further you are from the bottom, and clicking near the top is impossible. Also, Mac laptops position the top of the trackpad closer to the keyboard than other laptops I've seen.

You can use tap-to-click as a work-around for being unable to click the top of the trackpad, but I find tap-to-click less usable for other reasons.

Is there a way to middle click with this method? I use that often for new tabs and ThinkPads have the physical button at the top and tap to click is just three fingers.

If it's only for open in new tab, then Ctrl+Left Click work as well when using trackpad.

Middle click is very useful to close tab, which the alternative is to move cursor to a much smaller close button.

Especially on some apps (iirc pgadmin) where the tabs has no close button, that we need to right click and choose a menu to close a tab.

Pasting from the primary buffer is surely the main use case for middle click?

how do you scroll with just your thumb? how do you paste into your terminal?

Same. Everytime I get excited about Framework, Syste7m6, etc... and then get sad.

I fully understand I'm a vanishing minority, But trackpoint is such a productivity booster for me, and makes such amazing use of space in a laptop format, that it's a must-have (and again, I fully understand that those who don't use Trackpoint will have no comprehension of what am I going on about; I'm a grouchy quirky old man :).

Then there's other little things that may or may not be trackpad related - small function keys, lack of standard home/end/insert/del/pgup/pgdown cluster, and the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

It’s almost worth getting a “gamer laptop” just to get full-sized up/down arrow keys.

> the collapsed arrows which I don't even understand - you have the room, it's right there, nothing is using it... why is everybody making up and down arrows functionally unusable (I want to blame Apple, but as Obi Wan said - who's the bigger fool, the fool, or the fool that follows :)

This so much!!

I miss PageUp and PageDown there so much I refuse to buy anything but thinkpads right now.

The last alternative brand was Dell, which adopted the stupidly huge Left and Right arrows, and that's even seen on customer line Lenovos now :(

HPs still have dedicated pgup / home /etc in a column, to the right of backspace / enter / etc. But they've also adopted the stupid arrow cluster you describe.

I used to love my trackpoint, and swore by it, but I was unable to get my mouse to go fast enough on my latest X1 carbon, so I've sadly stopped using it..

How do you use your mouse in a car, on a plane, on the couch?

I mistyped - meant trackpoint not mouse. The maximum trackpoint speed on ubuntu is waay to slow, so I gave up on it.

When I was at IBM I had a mouse with a trackpoint for scrolling. It was pretty great. I miss being able to move and scroll at variable speeds.

https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/detail.aspx?id=12...

and a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/buxtoncollection/a/pdf/Zhai%20scro...

It's not the same, but the Logitech MX Master is basically the current version of this.

It has two scrollwheels, one for vertical and one for horizontal. They have some interesting tech in them. When moved slowly they click with detents, like normal scrollwheels. But when you move the wheels more quickly they "unlock" to spin freely, you can scroll at a pretty high speed and with good accuracy.

I looooooove this feature of the MX Master mice, but I went through 2 of them in two years. They do not seem particularly well-built.

I had problems with the Master 2, but my Master 3 has been very reliable.

Do the scroll wheels have "weight" to them? In other words, can you give it a good spin and let it keep spinning on its own momentum?

Yep, the scrollwheels are metal so they have some heft and they do keep spinning.

I haven't used the MX Master, only very briefly tested a display unit at a store, but I do believe that it spun for a while. So I'd check a video review first if you're thinking of buying one.

I personally use their G(aming) series mice with their older manual, mechanical mechanism instead of the new electromagnetic one in the MX Master. The G mice spin for a while... 15 seconds after a solid flick.

I just took a stopwatch to mine and it spun for 10 seconds. In real life you would give it another whirl after a couple of seconds because it starts to slow down, but the short answer is clearly yes.

Yes. I have the previous gen Master MX. The scroll wheel is a solid metal flywheel. It has serious heft and continues spinning maybe 5-10 seconds after a good flick.

On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. Maybe the newer model does.

And like another poster mentioned, it has a detent when scrolling slowly like a traditional scrollwheel, that then mechanically disengages when flicked fast enough. You can configure this sensitivity in software, and even map one of the mouse buttons to disengage the detent, if you dont like the smart scroll feature.

Its seriously the best designed mouse I've ever used. It's clear logitech spent a lot of effort thinking about what makes a good mouse really good, and they implemented that in this mouse. Truly a flagship device, without cruft or unnecessary crap.

Battery life after about 4 years is so-so, so I keep a usb cable on my desk to plug it in when it runs low. I get about 2 weeks out of it?

Materials are also degrading a bit, it's surface is becoming sticky like many "velvet" finish plastics do, but its not at a point where it's gross to hold.

Its held up very very well after roughly 1000 work days of use. It's cost per day of use is basically 0.

> On mine, the horizontal wheel does not have this feature. Maybe the newer model does.

I have both the current model and the older one. the horizontal wheel has been improved a bit - it's larger, and they moved the side buttons so that it's harder to hit them accidentally when scrolling horizontally (see this [0] comparison pic from a teardown [1] that I also linked elsewhere in this thread)

but the "shifting" feature is still only for the main scrollwheel, not the horizontal one. in practice I've never found myself using horizontal scroll often enough to wish it had the same "flick" capability.

0: https://blog.bolt.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/side.png

1: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/

here [0] is a teardown of the current generation compared to the previous, to show how much design and attention to detail goes in to them.

I was an MX Master 2 user for years, and bought a 3, along with an MX Keys [1] at the beginning of covid WFH. still going strong 2 years later, and I would buy both again in a heartbeat.

0: https://blog.bolt.io/logitech-mx-master-3-vs-2s/

1: https://www.logitech.com/en-us/products/keyboards/mx-keys-wi...

Back in the late '90s, I worked for an inventor dealing with analog dome switches. We took a mouse that had a rocker for scrolling instead of a wheel and I reprogrammed it to "fake" scroll clicks faster or slower depending on how hard you pressed. You could scroll slow enough to read, or zoom to the end of a doc with really good control. Man I miss that mouse.

Trackpoint really is damn nice. I also find it hilarious when I disable the trackpad in the bios to avoid any accidental brushes and then someone else tries to use my laptop - its like watching a deer try to walk for the first time!

Same here, though I have a key combination (ctrl-space) to toggle the trackpad.

You can disable the trackpad in the BIOS? A whole new, better world has opened up to me! I hate trackpads.

I taught myself just last year to use the trackpoint because I was curious. I turned it off at the BIOS, etc. just to make me use it exclusively. Once I got over the hump, I was surprised. I don't want keyboards anymore without it. I developed a strong muscle memory for it over the year. I'm a grouchy quirky old man, but when it comes to trackpoints, I am new to this quirk :D

Having had a trackpoint laptop since the 90's, the only thing that I found I could switch to when moving to a job that gave all engineers Mac's was the MBP track pad - the gestures and precision/feel just about made up for the loss of not having to move hands from the home row.

But yeah, sad that more laptops don't have trackpoints.

Similar story here. All the laptops I used had the trackpoint and I didn't want to give it up until I tried an MBP in 2012. The trackpad was miles better than any other trackpad I'd used. Other machines have gotten better trackpads now, though I still haven't tried one that is as good as the current MacBook trackpads. But at least I don't hate every moment of using non-Mac trackpads anymore.

When I was using Macbooks (the last time was around 2016-2017), I never deliberately used all the features of it, so I really don't know what is the fuss about it. I think they introduced things like 2-finger scrolling, which is really nice and ended up elsewhere. It makes using casual use a little easier, which causes me to still use it sometimes. (but I am getting used to using the TrackPoint for casual things too because the amount of control you have over things like scroll speed). My wife has a 2015 Macbook and the "click" sensor seems to have a problem. She got used to it though. But "clicking" is an option that can be turned off. However, when I use it, it is such a complete nuisance to use.

Wow I just realized I had been using trackpoints completely wrong - as in using it like I would use a trackpad, by taking my hand off of the home row. Very neat!

Aha! Happy to provide a TIL :)

That's really the killer feature of the trackpoint - especially for touch typists.

Is this on a thinkpad? My HP EliteBook has a track point and I haven't found any config that makes it usable. The tracking is either way too quick or way too slow. And the acceleration curve is either very steep or non-existent.

I've tried it on both Windows and Linux. I realize I'm not used to it, in the beginning I used to have a hard time with mice, too, so maybe it's just a question of habit.

For the moment, the only thing it does is leave a round trace on my screen whenever I close it...

The HP's have 2 keys, not 3. The middle is the one you push to use the trackpoint to scroll with. Hp simply crippled it

There are some models like the EliteBook 8770W that have the middle mouse button.

Totally understandable. I'm a trackpoint junkie, but I also could not get to using it on an HP laptop from work. It felt completely gimped (and yes, having just 2 buttons was probably a part of it).

I would die a little inside (ok, maybe that's dramatic :D ) if I was presented a trackpoint-like device but didn't work properly. I had that once - an X1 Carbon 5th gen actually I was using temporarily, struggling to make that useful, because it was too tight (I feel like post-*30 models, you need to break them in, a lesson that I eventually learned) and it would float a lot.

One nice thing about many used ThinkPads at least: trackpoints are usually the one component that are brand new on the device :D

I only used them on Thinkpads ... I can't imagine how they would work on HPs or Dells. And specifically, on older ThinkPads. I am typing on a T430s, but also have a x220 and a T470p. The latter feels a bit different, but I had to initially get used to it. For thinkpads at least, I definitely not have had a problem finding a proper acceleration curve.

> collapsed arrows

Yes. Who ever thought making up and down arrow keys so small was a good idea? They are high usage keys, and every time I'm on a laptop keyboard like that, I cringe whenever I use the arrow keys.

In fact, the keyboard is the first thing I look at when I'm in the market for a laptop. Small arrow keys = pass, I won't even look at the specs or price.

Won't fix one child-comment on quality, but is there a TP keyboard that would physically fit the hole in the framework. A physical shim would be easy easier; I'm assuming (possibly wrongly) that they connect via an internal USB connection?

I am posting the same thing every time framework pops up on HN. I hope the nudging will do it's work eventually.

Meanwhile I am wondering why there aren't many third party mods for the framework around. Would it be feasible to design a trackpoint keyboard (if you figure out how to put it in the profile) ? Does it connect via USB or alike internally?

I loved the TrackPoint and still miss it occasionally, had one on my T41p from IBM, however, I've been really happy with my Macbook (2011 Air and 2020 M1 Pro) trackpad, its lightyears ahead of any other ones I used on PC laptops and just works seamlessly. My Dell laptop from work the trackpad is garbage.

I thought it was just me!!!

Same! And the first thing I did was check the Framework marketplace for a keyboard replacement with a touchstick/trackpoint. I am hoping we can just pop a ThinkPad keyboard in it with a mod.

There is a discussion here https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026....

Short aside: any tips for becoming a trackpoint user?

I find it much more comfortable than the trackpad, but my curosr always seems so slow when it's not going way too fast. Is there special software tweaking I need?

EDIT: I forgot to mention I'm on Linux

Control Panel > Mouse > ThinkPad > Slow ---[]- Fast slider almost all the way to right

sudo sh -c "echo 240 > /sys/devices/platform/i8042/serio1/serio2/sensitivity"

This is separate to speed settings for mouse pointer

On my X1 Carbon 6th, this helped but not much. I put up with a stiff trackpoint for couple years (that's how I depend on one :)), until it hit me! Sticking a folded piece of paper (or similar) into the base of the eraser lifts it up and makes it feel smooth as butter! Problem solved! I would give myself a Nobel prize for discovering this if I could!

I'm also on an X1 Carbon 6th gen! I will try this out. Thanks much.

Do you have any problem with resolution, screen scaling? I think it requires 1.5x scaling, which often cause screen tearing and artifacts on Linux.

I run at 2x scaling and then set the text scaling factor to .85, so the effective text scaling becomes 1.7, and I avoid the issues with non-integer scaling in Wayland.

Text scaling via tweaks tool? That setting though is not respected by all apps though right? What happens if you connect an external display?

Yes, using the tweak tool. I believe there were also a few apps I had to tweak separately, like setting the default zoom level in Firefox. As for external displays, I don't generally connect my laptop to one, since my displays are connected to the desktop PC that I also own (which I run at 150% scaling in X11 mode so that fractional scaling actually looks good).

Oh, good point. Yes, my resolution is 2256x1504 and found the 1x too small so I have to scale it up. I haven't had any issues but I also typically do lower level and back end type work (occasional front end when needed). I also haven't done any gaming with the laptop (except some minor experimentation with Godot). If you are a designer or serious artist I recommend at least trying out your os with fractional scaling first.

have not had any issues with battery life

Looks like it can be charged from any USB-C port you install in it.

Much better than my work-assigned ThinkPad, which only allows charging through one specific port. As if everyone on the planet has their wall plug in the same location.

Yeah, that is a nice feature. I put USB c ports on both sides so I can plug it in based on where an outlet is relative to where I'm sitting.

> The aspect ratio is great for coding

If I ever need to buy a laptop this would be a huge feature for me, I would love if they still made 4:3 displays for desktops, it's so much better for the triple-wide setup I prefer, especially on the sides.

Curved ultrawide is the way to go. I can run three apps side-by-side on my a 38" Dell.

> and the keyboard is comparable to my old t-series.

Really happy to hear this bit since it's my main concern when buying a new laptop. My 2 other questions - how long does the battery last, and how is overall build quality?

I am happy with the build quality so far. It feels sturdy and lightweight. The laptop is noticeably lighter and thinner than my old ThinkPad. With the lid open it is about the same height as my 14 inch but there is more vertical screen real estate because there is less black around the display area. I have read about issues with the hinges but I think this has been fixed now. I have not had hinge issues. I opened up the laptop to take a look inside when I first got it and everything came apart and went back together nicely (my only surprise was one screw does not come out all the way by design which I had to Google about). The expansion slots are maybe a little too sturdy and require a good amount of force to remove.

For battery life I think an average user can expect 5 to 6 hours. I use mine for about 5 hours with Firefox (around 10-20 tabs) and a few terminal processes and will still have about 20% remaining.

I'm happy to answer any questions around this! We've been working on this since update since we launched the product last year, so we're excited to be able to share it today.

Do you have any preliminary specs on how battery life differs between these and the 11th gen equivalents?

In use battery life is largely the same, though Intel has added some additional features with 12th Gen Intel Core that can improve in-use power consumption in some scenarios. The main optimizations we were able to land were in standby power consumption. For Windows users, this means longer Modern Standby before going into Hibernate. For Linux, more importantly since hibernate is atypical, it means being able to leave your laptop unplugged for much longer when not in use.

Better standby performance is great news, as I know it's not all Framework's fault for the inconsistent standby power drain on the current models.

The standby performance was what kept me from buying a previous gen frame.work despite loving the mission and wanting to support y'all. I was holding my time until either the efficiency cores came along (if that has any improvement in standby? I'm not even sure) or if you ended up making AMD where I believe S3 sleep states still exist.

Very exciting to hear there's an improvement in this generation. Is that improvement due to intel changes, or due to frame.work changes? Can you quantify the standby improvement for linux in watts or battery % / 24h?

Does battery life significantly change between processor models?

Congrats on the refresh launch!

This is a combination of hardware and firmware improvements by both Intel on 12th Gen Intel Core generally and us on the Framework Laptop specifically. This is with s0ix standby, and we see ~0.4%/hour typically in Fedora 36 on 5.17.6 with the settings in our setup guide: .https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Fedora+36+Installation+on+th...

Thanks! How about ubuntu/debian?

> This is a combination of hardware and firmware improvements by both Intel on 12th Gen Intel Core generally and us on the Framework Laptop specifically. This is with s0ix standby, and we see ~0.4%/hour typically in Fedora 36 on 5.17.6 with the settings in our setup guide

For reference, on a Intel 11th Gen Lakefield (Lenovo X1 Fold), using a Vanilla Windows 11 Pro with the non-Lenovo Intel GPU driver downloaded from Intel Driver & Support Assistant, given the results of powercfg /sleepstudy I get a 6% of drain for 9h54 min (so about 10h) therefore 0.6%/hour in "disconnected" (no wifi activity) S0ix standby.

Before, with the official Lenovo driver, it was 0.5%/h (4h: 2% drain). I was hoping to get better results, but this isn't so bad with about 0 optimization!

S0ix has gone a long way, in both Linux and Windows.

I know this gets asked a lot and isn't really about this new upgraded model but..

Any news on plans for AMD models?

> Any news on plans for AMD models?

This is the only thing stopping me from getting a Framework laptop right now. I'd pay a premium for it as well.

Pre-Pluton chips, though.

Why is AMD so important to you? Are there any instruction set extensions these days that are only available on AMD? I can only think of things that are the other way around - only on Intel. And if you need something niche like some SIMD extension I guess you're running a server not a laptop?

I think it goes something like this:

- no Management Engine

- chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling

- not supporting a company with a toxic approach to business

I believe AMD outperforms Intel when you're targeting mobile performance/battery life, rather than "moar CPU" workloads. Though that might change now that Intel is using their own approach to performance cores. Still, given the last decade of Intel development, they don't exactly have my trust that they'll execute performance cores without serious hiccups.

> no Management Engine

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_PSP

The PSP is a lot slimmer than Intel ME. It also doesn't randomly yank traffic for specific ports from your Ethernet.

Any good link with the details?

There was a good talk with an overview (as well as owning it) at 36c3.

https://media.ccc.de/v/36c3-10942-uncover_understand_own_-_r...

I havent looked at the presentation yet, but are you saying the PSP, like intels ME could be doing nefarious things since its proprietary and closed? Do you have a link to information on the network capturing thing? I mean is that really a thing?

I have heard of these things before but I am not quite sure what the possibilities are. Do you have a link that can summarize what this actual means in terms of security concerns?

CVE-2017-5689

How do you know there isn't an undiscovered CVE for AMD? There's probably maybe 10x more security research focused on Intel

I don't, but they do a lot less with the PSP, especially if you're just using Ryzen Pro and not server SKUs. Intel put a web interface you can't disable with an offbrand networking gear level RCE vulnerability that needs nothing more than ethernet access into their security chip. I don't think AMD can exceed that anytime soon.

AMD PSP is NOT the same as Intel ME. AMD PSP is a "trusted execution environment" (the first sentence in your link). Intel's equivalent is Intel SGX. Trusted execution environments are a security feature that does not offer remote management. It's not a privacy concern like Intel ME is.

Thank you for clarifying this, all of the acronyms are difficult to reason about if you don't work with them every day.

> - chips that don't turbo boost themselves into throttling

Your level of understanding about how CPUs control their frequency, voltage, and power is evidently "none". Why spread comments like this which only serve to confuse and mislead readers?

Intel configured the chips such that they turbo boost so high that they overheat and downclock themselves to compensate.

Still "no" level of understanding? If there's something incorrect about my statements, feel free to correct me -- I do want to learn more, and I'm certainly no expert in CPUs. But it's just flat out rude (and against the contributor guidelines, I believe) to comment like this. Build other people up, don't tear them down.

> Intel configured the chips such that they turbo boost so high that they overheat and downclock themselves to compensate.

Yes, this is optimal and what literally everyone wants.

An airplane takes off at full power, reaches cruising speed, and reduces power to maintain cruising speed.

A CPU uses max power until it reaches its max operating temperature, then it maintains that temperature operating at lower power.

Why does the latter offend you when it's exactly the same as the former?

> Still "no" level of understanding?

Sadly, yes.

> don't tear them down.

This conversation started with you tearing down thousands of expert electrical engineers who make Intel CPUs.

Your airplane analogy is not what Intel CPUs do in practice.

A better analogy:

An airplane takes off at full power, reaches cruising speed, but its engines have overtaxed themselves and can't maintain altitude. The place descends to a suboptimal altitude until the engines can turn back on, and raise the plane back to the altitude it's supposed to cruise at.

Your CPU explanation is technically correct:

> A CPU uses max power until it reaches its max operating temperature, then it maintains that temperature operating at lower power.

Yep, this is a very high-level explanation of what CPUs do. The trouble with Intel processors today is that they use max power for too long, and have to throttle so heavily to "maintain that temperature operating at lower power" that you can notice the latency when the CPU downclocks. An ideal operating curve wouldn't use max power for so long that it causes obvious latency issues to an end user. That's why I have Turbo Boost disabled on my laptops -- the few seconds of "max power" it yields just aren't worth the massive downclock while the CPU cools down. Better to set a more conservative power level that doesn't get in my way. This is especially noticeable if you use emulation or a beefy IDE like Android Studio that turbo boosts your computer to a high temperature in the first few seconds of use, then turns text editing and code suggestions into a sluggish slideshow for the next few minutes because the CPU has downclocked. Or maybe I'm just imagining that?

> This conversation started with you tearing down thousands of expert electrical engineers who make Intel CPUs.

Did I say anything bad about the engineers? I have lots of disparaging things to say about the way Intel works as a business, mostly based around how product and sales operate. I think the engineers at Intel do the best they can under the constraints of a poorly run company. But there's a reason engineering talent has been fleeing for the better part of a decade.

I'd guess much better VFM.

It's simply a political/better CPU market perspective. Intel had the entire market for so long, and therefore stopped improving. They are getting some fire behind their behind-parts now, but that took a good while. I'm cheering and voting with my wallet for the underdog in the market to make the whole market more competitive. At least that's what I like to believe.

Better power handling per performance ratio, at least when compared to previous Intel generations.

Better integrated graphics, especially with the upcoming line, if what AMD says holds true.

Non-toxic approach to business.

Dr. Lisa Su has done incredible things with that company, and I'll happily support a group that recognizes the need for experience in top tech positions vs. MBAs/Lawyers/Fund Managers/etc...

Yep, the 6000 series has RDNA2 graphics.

> Non-toxic approach to business.

Unfortunately it seems the pendulum swings on this one at least a bit. Unless you want a flagship CPU, you'll wait a good half year to a year to get half as much choice of budget CPUs with rather extreme handicap (cache).

Also half of them are OEM only.

Try to find a good current gen CPU for a small to mid sized NAS in their lineup, it's not easy.

> Unless you want a flagship CPU

Even if you want a flagship CPU; e.g. see the newest 5xxx series Threadrippers which were only released after a year and half and even then they are only available in overpriced e-waste systems from Lenovo where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard and won't work anywhere else.

AMD is not your friend. Just like every other huge corporation.

It's relative. AMD is "your friend" as long as it's on the back foot, so to speak. Their GPU pricing remains much better than Nvidia's, even with the extreme availability issues over the past two years, and some of their actions on the GPU side are more consumer-friendly (such as offering open-source Linux drivers). But when in a more favorable position with respect to their competitor their behavior can and does change.

> where the CPU is locked down to the motherboard

Don't quote me on this, but I think I heard that this wasn't on by default?

> It's relative. AMD is "your friend" as long as it's on the back foot, so to speak.

Which is why you should reward behavior and not branding. Buy because they're doing/selling the right thing now, not because you've got loyalty towards a multinational conglomerate.

One signal for instance I want to send is "I buy from whoever has good Linux support". You stop supporting it well, I look for competition.

Integrated graphics is a big deal. I was talking to a friend just this morning who has been waiting to buy a Framework until there is a gaming capable option. Intel integrated graphics isn't viable, but AMD integrated graphics meet a casual gaming bar.

Because at the moment AMD is the least scummy of the two x86 chip manufacturers. Intel as the only feasible player in town for a good segment of time, asked premium prices for meager performance increases, generation by generation.

Mainly is just out of principle and voting with my wallet.

I was choosing AMD even when they didn't have the better processors on the market, for this very reason.

Exactly. If we're going to be told to vote with our wallets all the time, you better let me vote with my wallet.

I bought an ASUS ZenBook earlier this year because as much as I like Framework's product, I don't want to give Intel another dollar after they bent me over a barrel for a decade.

Why is Intel 12th Gen more important?

AMD is important for multiple reasons.

First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework.

Second, many people perceive that AMD outperforms Intel.

Third, many people think it is extremely important to reward positive competition in the market place.

Eighth, it would truly, truly prove the upgradeability and versatility of the Framework. Then we could move on to imagining dual^H^H^H^Hquad-Arm boards and RISCV boards and other fantasies.

> First, it shows that they listened to feedback. From way over here in the corner it seems like AMD has been the most requested feature for the Framework.

I would argue one of the most glaring problems with selling Framework laptops was that they where "still" on Intel 11th Gen hardware which is often perceived as "not so grate" of a choice.

I'm sure they would love to also ship AMD based mobos (and Arm too) but it needs to be profitable, i.e. the additional sales gained through also supporting AMD must outclass the higher logistic cost as well as higher development cost. This might not seem like a big deal but from the little experience I have with logistics and things like maintaining Intel and AMD BIOS support, still having pressure to also ship a faster Intel mother board etc. I highly duped this makes any sense at this point in time.

Also, yes many people perceive AMD outperforms Intel, but many also perceive the opposite! Sure competition is grate, but Framework is not yet a well established company. Lastly I don't think they need to technically prove that upgrading to AMD or ARM is possible, the problem is not technology but logistics, resources (BIOS maintenance, testing, etc), supply-chains and potentially shitty contracts and practices by Intel (and other Companies).

So IMHO they need to first establish themself well, and then branch out.

Voting with my wallet. Intel bent everyone over a barrel for a decade and I don't want to give them another dollar if I can avoid it.

> Why is AMD so important to you?

Not the GP, but here's my reason:

For dGPUs, I strongly prefer AMD over nVidia because of Linux driver support. In recent years, most laptops with an AMD dGPU have AMD CPUs.

It's possible that my calculus will change in the next few years. E.g., if any of these things come to market:

- good laptop with Intel CPU and AMD dGPU

- AMD CPU with a fast iGPU. (I know these are in the pipeline, but I'm waiting for benchmarks.)

- Intel's upcoming laptop iGPUs / dGPUs perform well and have good Linux drivers.

- nVidia's efforts to open-source parts of their Linux drivers address my personal pain points.

Sure, but none of these affect the Framework Laptop. This computer does not have discrete graphics.

For me personally, my preference primarily comes down to extreme differences in low-intensity/idle power usage of Ryzen 6000 vs Intel 12th gen. There aren't true "apples to apples" (same chassis/model, but AMD vs Intel) comparisons yet, although those should be coming in the next month or so, but here's an example of how efficient the Ryzen 6000s are: https://youtu.be/3bSetglEPOY?t=170

For people that need to use their devices on the go, I think it's a no brainer to prefer a Ryzen 6000 vs Intel.

The RDNA2-based Radeon 680M iGPU also significantly outperforms the (admittedly, much improved) Intel Xe iGPUs in 3D rendering. In synthetics, the new Radeon iGPUs are going head to head with Nvidia 1650 Max-Q dGPUs. This probably doesn't much matter if you aren't doing any gaming, but if you are, it means you can play most modern titles reasonably on the road in a thin and light form factor without giving up any battery life when you aren't.

AMD offers higher performance, better thermals and arguably better integrated graphics for the price.

Plus they made Intel drop their prices by ~50% since launching Ryzen, for which they deserve the money :)

Framework has said many times that they won't discuss future product plans. I doubt they want to experience the Osborne Effect.

Osborne Effect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

Does anyone know if the Framework laptop use a mainboard form factor that is available with AMD chips?

The modularity of some components can be assumed because they are industry standards, like wifi modules I suppose. Other components perhaps Framework have designed their own range of modules with a common form factor, but it must be very expensive to engineer a compatible mainboard in the same form factor with a different chipset, unless they are using an existing standardised design.

I'm not totally sure, but I think their mainboard is of their own design. They would need to adapt, but they could do it. I also think the differences are not too large, since most mainboard manufacturers offer surprisingly similar mainboards for either brand.

Why AMD?

Why is there so little interest in ARM-based Linux laptops? Does AMD (or Intel) have anything even close in performance / watt that one can get from an ARM-based system?

AMD and Intel both have processors that perform much better than anything ARM-based except Apple's M1 processors (which of course nobody else has access to). That might change once Qualcomm release the new design they are supposedly working on, but that's not available yet.

I was thinking recent CPUs in the Exynos line were supposed to be pretty good. I never realized Apple was that far ahead...

I think Apple's chips aren't that far off being twice as fast as Exynos chips in single-core performance. Whereas the latest AMD and Intel chips are more or less on a par.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...

The 990 is pretty old. I think the latest is the 2200.

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a14_bionic-v...

The A14 is a generation old at this point. This is a more relevant comparison:

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/compare_cpu-apple_a15_bionic_5...

ARM-based laptops are definitely more niche and if you don't have a large company like Apple forcing the adaption, you'll have a hard time to support proprietary software, including stuff like drivers. It would absolutely be cool to have an open ARM-based high-end laptop, but it's not drop-in like AMD.

Mainly the non-standardization of ARM hardware currently is my guess. For x86 a lot of it is standardized and well known.

There was a good thread here the other day on the subject of ARM hardware and the difficulties of things such as device trees and odd boot processes

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31409273

I think the main issue with AMD might be they lack support for Thunderbolt (last I've heard anyways)

Any chance of ortholinear (grid) keyboards happening?

We've gotten requests from a couple of ortholinear keyboard makers on it. With our current Input Cover design, it is technically possible to do, but would have fixed costs that would be extremely difficult to amortize over the number of units we could realistically sell. Because of that, we don't have any active plans for this.

Is there any way a hobbyist can make a custom one that would fit?

You can certainly try! Realistically it would probably need to be CNCed from aluminum, as plastic that thin wouldn't be sufficiently rigid.

How thin is the keyboard assembly?

Would Kailh choc switches fit?

Are the external dimensions and body interface points of the keyboard assembly published anywhere?

I would be very interested in having a programmable ergo keyboard like the Ferris: https://github.com/pierrechevalier83/ferris

The problem is mainly getting switches (and their keycaps) that are thin enough. All the switches that are available to be used by hobbyists (Cherry MX, Kailh Choc...) are way too thick.

I'd hope for a thicker laptop frame, then.

I think a frame thick enough for PCB + Chocs would then allow both a premium mechanical keyboard in a standard shape, as well as allowing for swapping this out for whatever more niche arrangements.

Whereas, for a thin, non-mechanical keyboard, the manufacturing cost would be too high to be feasible for anything but standard, presumably.

This would be fantastic for a larger-size laptop (desktop replacement size).

Would it be reasonable to test the waters with a survey or some form of group buy campaign? For example, if at least ~5k people preorder an ortholinear input cover for ~$200 you will produce one. (Or whatever numbers are required for you to break even.)

And of course if the campaign fails then you can at least say you tried.

I see there are only DDR4 options. Presumably if you bring your own memory, that also has to be DDR4.

Why no DDR5?

When we started developing this product last year, we looked at price trends and performance data on DDR4 vs DDR5 and made the bet that DDR5 would have both price and availability issues in 2022. That has turned out to be the case, with DDR5 SO-DIMMs typically going for 50-70% over the equivalent DDR4 capacity, without delivering performance improvements to justify that premium. This is something that will improve in the future, and we'll continue to track this for future products.

When I read this, I got really excited about a company having a well thought out, rational reason for a decision. And then I realized how sad that is.

What makes you think that people at Dell or HP don’t sit around and think about those tradeoffs?

They sell to different audiences though, so maybe optimize for different outcomes. I'd imagine DDR5 is much easier to sell to a "pro-sumer" who games on Windows vs. to a programmer who runs linux and can make an educated decision re: price/perf tradeoff.

Well, there are, but the things considered acceptable tradeoffs (like price/performance) are pretty different.

Is there a plan to offer other payment methods and/or multiple laptop orders. We want to use frame.work laptops for work and those limitations make it really hard for us to get it through logistics/purchase. The upgraded version would be an ideal reason for me to rerequest this as my new main machine.

Looks like they support bulk ordering: https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume-ordering...

Yep, we currently support orders of up to 5 laptops per order for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptop. For larger quantities for businesses, we also have additional business-focused payment methods via Balance (including things like NET terms). We're building ingestion flows for that, but in the meantime you can submit a request through our support form: https://frame.work/support?category=business-volume-ordering...

Any chance to have a trackpoint-style pointing device in the future?

Just to pile on, I would love to buy a Framework laptop instead of more ThinkPads, but I really can't do without a pointing stick keyboard. I even have a Tex Shinobi* for my desktop! I hope that Framework or a 3rd-party accessory can fill this gap in the market.

* https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi

To pile on even more... A lot of Linux users used to buy ThinkPad because of the Linux compatibility, the modularity and the build quality, but got addicted to the trackpoint, and this has become the only reason we keep buying them.

A competitor would be very welcomed!whoever is going to take that market will have followers for a long time.

Piling up to the pile, the lack of trackpoint is what prevents me to buy a framework laptop. Please :-)

Are there any patent issues to deal with for that?

When will you open the option to order to Israel?

  We haven’t opened ordering in your region yet, but we’re looking forward to getting there! We can notify you when ordering opens:

Will all software shipped with the hardware when ordered with GNU/Linux be Free or will there be non-Free software such as the BIOS/UEFI?

EDIT: I just realized that you cannot order this laptop with GNU/Linux pre installed. I was mistaken.

We've seen distro preference be too broad to make pre-loading efficient. Instead, we ship DIY Edition with no OS and publish guides for how to install and optimize the most popular distros. Our embedded controller firmware is open (see https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/EmbeddedController), and we're working with some community members on attempting a coreboot port.

Oh wow, that is actually really exciting!

> we're working with some community members on attempting a coreboot port.

Commendable. Very cool.

> distro preference be too broad to make pre-loading efficient

Others seem to manage by just having one or two pre-install options. Maybe you could do that too?

> Our embedded controller firmware is open

That's good, but do you also ensure that it _works_? There's way too much works-on-windows-and-halfway-on-Linux firmware out there. At least it _can_ be fixed, but being open doesn't mean that it necessarily _will_.

What support do you provide for Linux users?

Any plans to ship models with coreboot one day?

Potentially: https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only...

Why is the SN750/SN850 the default SSD, given it has relatively high power consumption[1] and separately is there any reason to believe that building a DIY version with a different SSD wouldn't work?

[1] https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-black-sn850-m-2-nvme...

We see folks in the community using a range of different SSDs, but SN750/SN770/SN850 are what we have done the most validation on. We see good perf/watt on the WDC drives. It's unclear why Tom's Hardware was seeing poor idle power with power saving modes on.

Thanks for the response.

Any plans to offer larger displays?

You have a bunch of job opening’s in Taiwan but you currently don’t ship to Taiwan? :(

what are the specs on the expansion cards? looks like usb-c.. why not let order with 0 expansion cards and use a dongle of my choosing?

I think can you do that with the DIY edition.

You can, but we don't recommend it. Many/most USB-C cables are too thick to properly plug directly into the internal USB-C receptacles, which would make it hard to plug in and put stress on it.

missed that option. thanks!

You can with the diy version, but don't do that.

Even if you only want 4 usbc ports, get 4 usbc modules and don't be a baby about the 4x$9 for passthrough cards that don't even have electronics.

The usbc port inside the module bay is directly soldered to the motherboard. The module and bay serve as an important prophylactic to protect the usbc port from damage.

I would only use the real port inside as a backup when some module breaks or is lost or something.

It IS useful, and IS an explicit selling point (to me anyway) that you have the option to do something like plug a power supply or hub or dongle directly in there instead of it being a proprietary connector, but that doesn't mean do it regularly, especially not if the machine is being used in a portable manner where you're always plugging and unplugging.

Can existing customers "trade in" their old motherboards for the newer models, with credit applied to make it cheaper?

We don't do trade-ins, but we have released projects to enable re-use of old Mainboards: https://github.com/FrameworkComputer/Mainboard

We're seeing some interesting outputs of that: https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal

aha!

Thoughts of whether the marketplace could be used for "certified" refurbished older components ?

I know your roadmap is probably packed to the brim, but if you could help facilitate 3rd party sales that would be useful. My wife stepped on my framework 3 days (!!) after I finally got it back in the beginning, and you couldn't buy parts yet so I bought a whole new framework and cannibalized it for the screen. I've since repaired it but if there was a way to either trade or sell with other people in a similar boat, that would be amazing, particularly where not all parts are available for purchase at each given time.

List it on Swappa.

It would be nice if older Framework hardware could be donated to some form of charity.

I know this is a hard ask, but consider the Apple or Lenovo model of long support contracts. Not only does this help a lot of buyers to get your product, but you can start refurbishing trade-ins to get parts to service support cases.

In the Frame.work style you might be able to do it via a more DIY approach.

IBM used to guarantee availability of the exact chips, and did a lot of stuff behind the scenes to make that happen.

That sort of a guarantee way beyond what's reasonable of Frame.work, they don't control their suppliers to that degree. They've already updated the peripheral chips & hardware even within "v1", both for bugs and supply issues.

Frame.work has pretty much implied the form factor will remain largely untouched, so you're likely to be able to swap a component in even years from now, even if it'll be an "accidental upgrade". That sounds quite reasonable to me...

Not a question for the announcement, but the location page is missing countries, for example Bulgaria. This prevents me from even telling you I want to order form here (Bulgaria).

https://frame.work/locale/edit

Thanks, captured on our internal bug tracker.

Hi! Same for Guyana (GUY)

What are the main reasons for not shipping to other EU / EEA countries?

Laptops are uniquely challenging in that each additional country has its own keyboard language, increasing the number of SKUs we need to manage and hold inventory for. This is beyond the normal challenges of entering new markets. We enumerated this in a blog post here: https://frame.work/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure

We are continuing to build the infrastructure and keyboards to expand into more countries though!

Hmm… I don't see how that prevents you from shipping whatever is available. Many of us don't care about localized keyboards. I want a US layout. I dropped an email to your support almost a year ago with a request to add my country to the list, got "no problem, check back in a week", and the country still isn't there.

Take this with a grain of salt, but the last company I worked for had a sizable office in Tokyo, and I was told by someone in the IT department that they were legally required to buy computers with Japanese keyboards for their Japanese employees. Obviously that kind of rule wouldn't likely be applied to an individual bringing in their personal devices, but I can conceive of it being enforced on commercial imports.

Similarly, I've heard anecdotes about employers in Quebec being forced to provide equipment that has full support for the French language, even if the employees only actually speak English.

There are probably many potential users who wouldn't care, I've lived in Norway my whole life but my keyboards have been exclusively with an English layout for more than ten years now. If the thing holding you back from expanding to, among others, Norway is the lack of a nb-NO keyboard, please reconsider :)

Please don't let weird localized keyboards block this. We don't care about that stuff. People buying framework laptops are able to change their keyboard layout in software and use it without having to look at the symbols present on the keyboard. Yes the physical layouts are also different, but that really doesn't matter. Just make it available and forget about these tiny issues that your target market of power users don't care about.

I want to throw my money at you, but I can't because the laptop is not available for shipping to the country I live in.

> Yes the physical layouts are also different, but that really doesn't matter.

Real YMMV territory here. I use many devices and when one of them has been a US ANSI layout, that has been a problem. Any ISO layout is fine, could be UK QWERTY, AZERTY or QWERTZ, I'll reconfigure it on software and ignore the labels. But applying a ISO layout to a ANSI keyboard leads to issues like Linux losing the # key or OS X just making random shit up and calling it a keyboard layout it isn't.

Luckily, Framework has done the work of making an ISO layout already for UK/France/Germany

To tag on, based on my experience in Eastern Europe, users that do need dual-language key caps will buy a set of stickers for their keyboard.

Or as you said, they don’t need to see the keys - I type in Russian and Ukrainian and don’t need to see the keys.

Just make the US keyboard version available everywhere and worry about local keyboards later, when people ask for them.

Your audience is probably 90% devs and sysadmins, who most definitely can at least handle en_us.

Shipping a US keyboard in Europe seems like an odd choice since most European keyboard layouts are ISO, not ANSI. I could see a blank keyboard working, or an ISO US keyboard maybe, but that is an uncommon layout that I don't think I've ever actually seen before?

Does this even matter? The point is that if one is fine with the US/ANSI keyboard, they should be allowed to buy it. To wit, I'm european and despise the ISO keyboards, and have never been forced to use one, so it's not like they're ubiquitous.

In many, many European countries, especially the smaller ones, a large chunk of devs and sysadmins straight out use the US keyboard layout, basically the old IBM PC one. I have no idea what kind of standard they follow... And people don't seem to care.

Congrats!

Looking at the DIY Guide [0] it looks like a lot of the laptop comes pre-assembled still (case, motherboard, screen, keyboard).

Is it more cost effective to do the labor on Framework's side to ship everything more tightly together in 1 box or could we see a 'DIY Pro' option that ships every component in its own box? (Maybe even at greater discount?)

Also, check out this Mechanical Watch [1] tutorial that made it to the front page of HN last week. I could definitely see an exploded assembly view like this being really instructional for Framework DIY-ers.

[0] https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Framework+Laptop+DIY+Edition... [1] https://ciechanow.ski/mechanical-watch/

We wrote about this in an early blog post: https://frame.work/blog/the-evolution-of-the-framework-lapto...

It would be substantially more expensive for us to ship the laptop in a state that is less assembled. Packaging, labor for pack-out, and increased size and weight for freight all end up being quite a bit more than product assembly labor.

Does the laptop support proper S3 sleep, or is this impossible with modern Intel CPUs?

I was under the impression it was largely a BIOS option.

Basically if S0idle is advertised as supported, S3 isn't.

On recent BIOS on Thinkpads this tends to be an option which can be toggled.

> On recent BIOS on Thinkpads this tends to be an option which can be toggled.

Just because the BIOS says so doesn't mean it will work.

On some old Dells, the S0 implementation in the BIOS was just so broken it straight couldn't work, even in Windows. What saved the game was Microsoft carefully considering such scenarios and checking the battery budget: if S0 was draining the battery too fast for the computer to awake in a usable state (like, with enough power to at least boot...) it would give up on S0 and go S4 "hibernate" instead.

In Linux this is now called Hybrid Sleep (S0+S4) but I don't think it existed back when I was in university. Finding a working ACPI S3 was hard.

On thinkpads, as explained above, a working S3 is just sheer luck as Intel 11th gen shouldn't even support S3. On the 12th gen, it sure doesn't. I would be curious to know if S3 works with Linux on a X1 nano Gen2 (12th gen)

What do you mean doesn't support? Source?

PS: works on an 11th gen i5

EDIT: according to [1] S3 is supported on 12th. BIOS just hides it exists (not written in linked the article)

[1] https://edc.intel.com/content/www/us/en/design/ipla/software...

S3 was technically not supported in 11th Gen Intel Core, but seemed to mostly work anyway. S3 is also not technically supported in 12th Gen Intel Core, and it seems to mostly not work at the moment, and it is unclear if that will change. However, s0ix continues to improve substantially in recent kernels, to the point where there doesn't seem to be a major standby battery life advantage to s3 anymore (on 11th Gen).

Would love to see a blog post on how your team diagnoses/profiles power issues.

I can't edit my comment anymore, but I have been informed that with recent firmware, s3 does seem to still work on 12th Gen Intel Core.

Great to hear, thanks!

Less of a question, more a note:

In the configure page to pre-order for the 12th-Gen variant, there's a link to the 12th-Gen variant. Feels a bit weird and confusing to be pointed towards the shiny new variant, while shopping for the shiny new variant.

Thanks, we are fixing this now.

Not too different from the AMD comment, is there any plan or roadmap for future generations of (yet-unreleased) Intel chips?

Also congrats on the update, I honestly wasn't expecting it. I'm seriously considering a framework laptop/motherboard for my next PC.

I love everything about what you have planned. Is there anything in the works for creating more keyboard options? While mechanical keyboards might be too impractical, even something with bigger arrow keys would be nice.

The day there is a ThinkPad style keyboard (trackpoint, 3 button) and a matte screen, I'll order one immediately, and assuming it lives up to the expectation, I'd order more after that quickly.

Is there any plans (that you can talk about) for a slightly larger model with maybe more ports?

I want one of these so bad but if you end up doing a larger one shortly down the line i'm going to be really gutted.

Edit: also any plans for a blank ISO keyboard to match the blank ANSI one?

Any chance you'll eventually have a Framework with a 'clickier' keyboard and a trackpoint like the x220? I will happily buy your product the next time my x220 dies (instead of upgrading it) if it has the nice clicky keyboard and a trackpoint. A slightly thicker laptop is very much a fair trade-off.

I'd totally buy a Framework mainboard if I could squeeze it into my old x220 case.

Oh yeah this would be an option too.

Check out XY Tech who build and distribute modified ThinkPads. Xue Yao, the person behind it, intends to build a motherboard that will fit into an X220 case soon, possibly this year.

I bought an "X2100" (a ThinkPad X200 with a 10th-gen Intel CPU) from him in 2020 and it's been fantastic.

https://xyte.ch

sick, thanks man.

The missing trackpoint is a major reason for me to stay with Lenovo.

I just ordered a Framework yesterday. I'm not interested in the 12th gen chip, but is there any other reason I might want to cancel & re-order today? i.e. would I be getting an older design?

edit: Someone also brings this up on the OP: https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...

Not GP but if it were me and you don't care about the 12th gen chip, I definitely wouldn't cancel and re-order. I would guess the battery improvement won't be dramatic, but you'll end up with a little more cost and a longer wait time. The only thing might be the new cover. The old one is pretty flimsy and doesn't tolerate heavy abuse well. Mine is always in my house or a backpack so it's not been a problem for me, but if I carried it around publicly where it can be dropped and such, I might be concerned about it.

Good info, thanks! For better or worse, it had already shipped.

Something is really wacky with v-scrolling on your pre-order page (Pixel3/Chrome) I wasn't able to complete the process.

What are the constraints that are blocking wider EU availability?

Right now, in Europe it's only available in a handful of countries (5 of 27). I'm in Spain, and I see I can spec a perfect machine and get it delivered just over the border in France, but I can't get the same thing delivered here just a couple of hours away, which is very surprising! My understanding was the single market & customs union etc should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.

Is this due to smoe regulatory issues, or needing to organize shipping differently for every country, or waiting to include an ñ key, or something else?

Right now, I'm very seriously looking at ordering one, renting a PO box in France and shipping the laptop here myself, which seems a bit ridiculous.

Will Switzerland ever be able to order them with a Swiss German Keyboard?

The problem is (my guess) Logistics is hard.

Amazon might make it look easy but it really isn't (and Amazon is not available in all EU countries either!).

Logistics is more then just shipping, but also returns, repairs, availability, shipping time, shipping costs, where and how to keep stock. And this points affect each other, i.e. they might not have enough supply to sell to the whole EU market etc.

Lastly while there is a free marked in the EU if I remember correctly there are still some differences when importing things from outside into the EU depending on the country of entry. Like how to fill forms and which companies you can work with (for what prices) in given country.

What do you mean by "Amazon is not available in all EU countries". Do you mean like a country specific TLD? Because that is true, but order and delivery is not a problem from any EU country as far as I know.

A couple years ago it wasn't available in Portugal, don't know if it's changed.

amazon.es is the portal for Portugal, there is not a .pt

In my experience a significant part of Amazon's inventory isn't something they'll send outside of the "domain country", e.g. trying to send from .de or .uk (this was before Brexit) to .nl.

It just comes down to suppliers, who aren't serving customers outside of select markets for whatever reason.

I see that as a "market platform" problem. I used extensively amazon.de/co.uk with deliveries in Romania, in early 2010's for a bunch of things. But since then they also opened up their market to any seller, quality dropped, shipment became preferential, or 1 cart could result in 2 separate shipments.

Aside. I've seen the exact same problems with our local Amazon "competitor". As soon as they became a platform marketplace I've started using them less and less because of the same quality/delivery issues.

It's not really a problem of the platform, except insofar as you'd like Amazon to only ship from their own warehouses. It's just Amazon reflecting reality on the ground in the EU.

Which is that even if it's legally a single market it's common that stores that deliver something to your door only sell their products in their own native country, or only within their local region.

If it's not localized, it might as well not exist for 95% of customers in a country.

I expect that 20-40 years old, are able to use an English language website. Thus your made up 95% is extremely high.

Yeah, until you hit the parts of the UI that aren't translated from German or have to return stuff and the vendor only communicates in German and the auto-generated emails are in German and the vendor feedback list is in German and th4 reviews are in German...

They're not ordering from amazon.com (US), they're probably ordering from amazon.de with a thin layer of English translations + autotranslations.

If you're setting your preferred language in English on the website, all further on interaction should be in English. (BTW they have multiple language dropdowns that I didn't even highlight because I'm sure old generations do not know how to use those). Lack of English translated terms isn't something I've personally encountered, and for the reviews it's true I scroll a bit further down the page to see the English reviews from .com

I've used .de very often in the past, and when I stopped using Amazon, as said in reply to someone else https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31445473 , quality dropped (among other downsides) when they allowed third party sellers and those flood the product listing pages.

With those specific suppliers (and anything that isn't fulfilled by Amazon), I expect to be possible to have the issues you're referring to. But I wouldn't clump that together with Amazon not being available in some EU countries.

When 70-80% of what's sold on amazon.de comes from other vendors and you can't filter those results out, what you're saying doesn't help at all.

Yes, theoretically you're right, but in practice it's useless advice.

I'll copy paste a comment I made here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31096793 but I'm also guessing logistics.

They gave a IMO good overview of the difficulties of selling to a new country in a previous post :

> With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you can order a laptop if you’re outside of the US and Canada. We selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization for the Framework website, support documentation, and checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it’s actually a drastically simplified summary.

https://frame.work/ca/en/blog/scaling-up-infrastructure

A lot of that sounds like legal and paperwork problems.

I thought the whole point of the E.U. was to break down those cross-border paint points. Or is it still a work in progress? Can an E.U. person say if this is going to change?

It does help (for example the mentioned CE certification is EU-wide). But it definitely could be better. I'd suggest it's not likely to change significantly any time soon.

The EU means it would be entirely legal and tariff-free for a company in France to ship a product to Spain as-is, with minimal caveats. But that won't be a desirable product for most Spanish customers.

The vast majority of that list has nothing to do with laws, but with physical requirements (keyboard and power plug), payments (not standardized beyond bank transfers), localization, and logistics.

I'd expect a cable C5 to Shucko to work everywhere in Europe (at worst you change the cable for preference to avoid an adapter)

And would not be acceptable in any other country than Germany legally. Got bitten by that while searching for industrial plug…

It's very much a work in progress, especially since overall progress is happening at the same time.

27 countries need to coordinate to first agree to grant the EU the power to take over some aspects and then those same 27 countries need to actually do the work, together with the EU, to standardize that aspect. Then the standard needs to be adopted and enforced.

The EU has less power than a confederation, which is a very weak supra-statal organization. So everything is very, very slow.

The EU is gradually able to do more and more, but the time frames are decades long.

That's mostly self imposed legal and paper work. They could ship the German version EU wide, but they don't. Because they want to "provide the best experience". You know what would be the best experience? Buying the damn thing without paying extra for mail forwarding.

I'd say they need none of that. Not only is barely anything of that a legal requirement in the EU, it's also a waste of money and resources to set this up in every country when you're mainly addressing pro users and tinkerers.

I bought & imported a Supernote e-ink tablet from China the other day. The manufacturer offers none of the things mentioned above, heck their support team barely speaks English (but god knows they're trying!). Still everyone on Reddit loves them because they 1) produce a killer product, 2) provide great support when needed (e.g. send you a replacement or fix bugs), and 3) respond to community requests and regularly roll out software updates with fantastic new features.

It's just dumb, really. Just make an "international" version and ship it from one EU country.

I can understand not shipping to a "untrustworthy" country like Romania or Poland (lol), but Sweden, Italy, Belgium? Even they register for mail forwarding services in order to buy from Germany (and before, UK).

It's much easier to buy from AliExpress, the CCP can't believe their luck with us drowning ourselves in redundant regulations while producing there because of lack of them.

On that note, Russia makes 2/3 of the world's nuclear power plants and they built this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Bridge in THREE YEARS. We can't manage a stupid river bridge for the same budget in a decade.

This. The "complete experience" is nonsense to me. I don't need any of this, aside from a functioning power cable and whatever is required to pass basic legal checks. If you give me documentation that isn't in English it will go in the trash immediately. I definitely do not want your localized keyboard, either.

Right now you're just forcing people to jump through hoops by not allowing them to directly order from anywhere.

> My understanding was the single market & customs union etc should make going from 1 to N EU countries pretty easy.

Sadly, every country insist on doing everything else his own special snowflake way. There would have to be a lot more harmonization for it to be that easy.

Will it be possible to get a keyboard like the Thinkpad. FULL SIZE arrow keys. Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN adjacent to the arrows ?

Trackpoint is a bonus

> Menu button next to Right ALT. And PGUP PGDN adjacent to the arrows

Keys can easily be remapped in software, so all you really is the physical keys layout (full size arrows + two keys on either side of the up arrow) and the trackpoint. Menu or PrintScreen or whatever doesn't really matter much.

I would really like to buy one BUT I find it a little bit too expensive, especially the price difference for better CPUs I find proportionate. (i would be slightly more tempted if it was for an amd 6000 cpu, they are much better in perf/power, I hope you will reconsider in the next generation when the iGPU will be RDNA based)

Any word on a resolution bump? We only need a few more lines for 2x support!

Any chance for an add-in card with an Intel NIC? I have had issues with the realtek USB-C NICs and I was hoping the 2.5GbE would be intel.

Any chance of 15”-16” in near future?

I wondered this too, but they will need a way to be able to plug the same Mainboard into a new chassis such that the Expansion Cards work correctly, or else design a new Mainboard with increased size (or I guess longer Expansion Cards, but that seems silly).

Of course (?) they need to build a larger motherboard. I'd be really tempted to buy a 15" model especially with a touchpad with 3 hardware buttons (I'm not considering any laptop without them) and a keyboard without numberpad (very important but a little less than the hw buttons.)

I can imagine chassis designs that use the same Mainboard but move the Expansion Card slots out. It would also be much more in keeping with the ethos of the product and company to use exactly the same Mainboard in every device.

Hi nrp

I demo-ed my frame.work laptop yesterday to https://www.matinfo-esr.fr/ which is a single buyer entity for all french universities and public research institutes (once hardware is in their catalog it's click to order for universities without administrative hassle).

They showed interest on the non obsolescence, durability and repairability aspect of frame.work since these features are part of their public service mission.

Feel free to contact me, my email is on the website listed on my HN profile

Edited to add: nrp, I know this person and I vouch for them :) I'm confident that they could help you enter a sizable new market here in France.

Laurent, content de te revoir ! Et content de voir que tu te bats toujours pour les bonnes causes... Signe : un ex-collegue a la BNP ;)

Thanks!

40 upvotes I guess some of our university community is on HN and want frame.work as work laptop :)

I was told that matinfo-esr has been Dell biggest client in the whole Europe for some years.

Piling on the wishlist: any chances of a fanless mainboard in the future? I'm a sucker for fanless, hard for me to imagine going back...

I don't think this works well with x86 chips. The performance of ARM in this low power budget is unmatched, especially looking at Apple's M1. And even they need fans to sustain the clock speeds.

An MS Surface Pro 7 with an Intel Core i5-7300U is fanless. I know I won't be getting the very bleeding edge topmost performance with fanless, but I can still get it plenty awesome. The silence is just a different level of experience, that I'm absolutely addicted to.

How are you using CNC to make parts en masse in a cost effective way?

It looks like you currently can't order without Windows bundled. Will there be an option to order the kit without Windows for a reduced price?

There's an option to order without any OS installed

Hmm. It seems like the homepage link to the DIY order was incorrectly directing to the prebuilt option. But it's fixed now.

Wow, that's quite a price jump from the i5 to the i7 and then subsequently to the 6 core one. Could you talk a bit about the economics of having hotter / higher end chips in a notebook and whether there are other non-obvious cost increases to them? Are the higher end models "subsidizing" the lower end one, or is there motherboard / chipset upgrades that need to happen as a result?

Really like the laptop though, and it's a close contender when it's my time to upgrade... :)

You're paying quite a bit for vPro.

I'd guess that the 2 extra cores don't really make much of a difference day-to-day. If you crank up all the cores, both chips will throttle in a laptop of that size. If you are only running a couple single-threaded applications, the extra 100MHz turbo hardly makes a difference (around 2-3%).

On the flip side, the places that need/want vPro are going to be very enterprisey and don't mind spending the extra money.

Huh, that v-pro argument makes sense. Enterprises gonna enterprise.

Please, more country availability!

I've been waiting for 12th gen Alder Lake availability and am ready to pay. However as a EU citizen from one of the Baltic states I am unable to do so.

Please, tell us that this year any EU citizen will be able to order a Framework laptop.

I could not even find which friends in which countries to ask to order Framework for me.. It used to be US then UK, and I know there are a few other ones.

Combined with a waitlist the logistics are painful.

At least I hope that signing up for the waitlist from a specific country counts as something.

Can't you use a parcel forwarding service?

Why can't Framework? It can't be a new need, and shipping stuff to Europe isn't a new concept.

Plus, given that the EU exists, why is it any more troublesome to ship to one of the EU countries than another?

I was waiting for the availability of the US international keyboard for DIY builds, but I got an even better present today. I have just made my preorder, surprised to see that a 1280P CPU with 64GB RAM is very reasonably priced!

I was in the market for a MacBook Pro / max upgrades as well, mind you, so effectively I also saved a lot of money (I believe at least a $1k price difference).

I use Linux as my daily driver, super happy to see the better support here as well.

All in all, thank you for making a refreshing change in this market.

What style of touchpad does the device have? Is it a force sensor style (macbook), hinged (most recent thinkpads), or one-big-button (also some thinkpads had this)?

I absolutely despise the hinged touchpad on my thinkpad as you can't click unless you're pushing on the bottom half of the touchpad. A force sensor touchpad alone would make me put in an order for a framework laptop

It is hinged.

Ah, that's a bummer. Ok!

I can click the framework v1 touchpad with my fingernail touching the chassis above it. Half a finger width lower the resistance is more reasonable. One finger width down from the top the feel is pretty much the same as closer to the bottom.

Notebookcheck says that the 1240p actually performs BETTER than the 1260p due to thermals. Is this true for the new Framework laptop?

https://www.notebookcheck.net/Core-i5-beats-Core-i7-Alder-La...

Any information when it will launch in India?

Still no retina display option. Steve Jobs made the right call over a decade ago... the only scaling that looks good after 100% is 200%. Any in-between scaling will have display artifacts.

This laptop has 150% scaling. What sort of display artifacts can you expect because of this? Go to a web page with a grid, with 1-pixel horizontal grid lines. Even though all lines are set to 1-pixel, some lines will appear thicker than others.

I blame Microsoft for this mess. Windows supports in-between resolutions (with display artifacts), and hardware manufacturers therefore manufacture in-between resolutions. Framework laptop is limited to what the display manufacturers put out.

besides the fact that "retina display" is a marketing term invented by Apple, I don't really see what the big deal is. I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on my 1080p screen. More pixels means more load on the GPU.

It is different from person to person. I notice pixels on 13-inch 1080p screens. I can't imagine using a display that is not 200% scaling. Even 300% scaling has display artifacts.

1080p !?! Wow I didn’t know that there are professionals out there using such a shitty resolution. You are definitely not the target audience for high quality hardware then I guess.

That's pointless gatekeeping. Having the most expensive pencil doesn't make you draw better. For most professionals in most fields, more than 1080p is a waste of energy.

Good tooling improves the artists workflow and results in most cases.

Wait until you see what hardware the OpenBSD developers use... are you going to claim that they aren't professionals?

https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20120425065148

https://www.undeadly.org/features/2012/r2k12/P1020598.JPG

These images are from 2012... That was 10 years ago. lol

While I prefer my personal machines to have 1440p or 4k resolutions, I'm perfectly happy with my work PC's 1080p screen for development and email. I'm hardly watching videos or gaming on that machine, and I don't find that fonts are noticeably sharper at the size that I prefer them on a 15" laptop display.

You find the screen real estate sufficient? I hate developing on a small screen (especially for the web).

I hear some people call themselves professionals and don't even use gold-plated HDMI cables.

Why use HDMI when there is USB-C or Thunderbolt? As far as I know 4k@60hz is max on HDMI. You are optimising the wrong thing here.

I am not a professional, I am just a student.

Edit: If I was an artist or something I might care about resolution or color accuracy.

Finish your studies and then you will get the chance to use better hardware :)

Color accuracy is super important to me whenever I need to design something on the frontend side of things. High resolution is important too because I'm working with my screens. That means that I stare many hours per day in the display. Life is too short for shitty hardware and most professionals in our industry or their companies can definitely afford it.

Same. I have an old school 2013 MBA and a fresh MBP for work and I don’t really notice the difference.

Of course I can _see_ the difference. The MBP looks really nice. But when I sit down to code or watch a movie on the MBA, I have pretty much the same experience as I do on my work machine.

I use a setup with multiple screens, some of them Retina, some of them not (the lack of high resolution external displays is a pity...).

The difference in resolution is immediately obvious, but once I start working I forget that the displays have a different resolution.

Things like aspect ratio are much more important, and I think that 3:2 is the best aspect ratio for work. 16:9 and even 16:10 has always felt a bit cramped in the vertical, 3:2 feels perfect.

> I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on my 1080p screen.

1080p doesn't mean much if you leave out the screen's pixel density. There's a world of difference between a smartphone with a 5' 1080p screen and a 24' monitor with a 1080p screen.

And distance to it

That's a good point. But distance also plays a factor. Perhaps we should be measuring in pixels per degree at the viewing distance.

That's actually what the term "retina" means (in Apple marketing lingo). It's the required pixel density, at different viewing distances, where you no longer see the pixels. Retina PPI for Macbooks is different compared to iPhones.

Sure, but the threshold between "Retina" vs Non-"Retina" is somewhat arbitrarily decided by Apple, and it's also a registered trademark that only Apple owns.

It's like arguing whether or not macbooks are "ultrabooks". Choosing to discuss using these terms is ultimately just allowing these companies to arbitrarily control discussions. I think we should try to resist corporate capture of language when possible.

Consider the context of the parent comment. If I can barely notice individual pixels on my 1080p monitor with good vision at a normal viewing distance, then surely the difference between a 4K screen and a 2K screen can't be that noticeable, even to a professional artist (who probably has more ideal viewing conditions, a more trained eye, and lower viewing distance).

Looking at apple's website, their MacBook Air (which I assume is their main model?) has a "retina" resolution of 2560x1600 with a 13.3' display, whereas the framework has a resolution of 2256x1504 with a 13.5' display. So they are about the same, except that one is marketed as "Retina" and one is not.

> Looking at apple's website, their MacBook Air (which I assume is their main model?) has a "retina" resolution of 2560x1600 with a 13.3' display, whereas the framework has a resolution of 2256x1504 with a 13.5' display. So they are about the same, except that one is marketed as "Retina" and one is not.

From your claim, the MacBook Air has simultaneously a smaller display and a significanly higher pixel count: over 20% more pixels than Framework's display in a smaller area.

You might try to argue that the difference is not meaningful or important to you personaly, but they are far from "being the same".

For some people, High-DPI displays are the type of upgrade that you don't notice until you've been using it for a while and have to switch back to the old technology.

I was also fine with lower resolutions for years because that was the only option. After using high-DPI displays for a couple years, I can't stand working on old low-DPI monitors for long periods of time. It's similar to how we were all happy with our mechanical HDD computers for years, but after using an SSD-based machine for a few months you can never go back to slow HDD-based machines.

It's not about seeing individual pixels. It's about the text clarity and reduced fatigue after reading text all day.

I have a 4k 14" ThinkPad X1 Carbon and I happily use it at 100% scaling.

I use a bitmap font such as Unifont If I want the text to look sharper on a 1080p screen. it is useful for programming, not so much documents.

As for hard drives vs SSDs, I can hardly notice the difference in read/write speeds day-to-day. I merely use an SSD because it is more durable in the situation that I drop my laptop.

When I use a machine with a spinning rust drive, my brain keeps interrupting me: "Why is this computer clicking?"

Yeah, this is my biggest gripe about System76 right now. They _used_ to have HiDPI options, but they all seem to have disappeared. :(

>I have pretty good vision and I don't notice individual pixels on my 1080p screen.

For a 24" 1080p monitor in typical desktop configuration I get screen-door-effect. I can clearly see the black grid lines between pixels.

Also, if you can see aliasing/stair-stepping on this test then your eyes could benefit from higher resolution:

https://www.testufo.com/aliasing-visibility#foreground=fffff...

I've been on an LG Ultrafine 5k for a year and I consider anything less to be borderline unusable.

> I have pretty good vision

My vision is terrible. Maybe the relationship works the other way around?

It also doesn't have a touchbar and has an excessive amount of ports!

Just like the new MBPs!

Framework laptop actual has fewer ports than MBPs (although they're configurable which is neat, with the caveat that some like expansion ports HDMI are a big drain on battery life, even when inactive)

The HDMI drain surprised me, so I looked up more information, and you seem to be correct:

https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/tekihq/expansion...

https://community.frame.work/t/battery-life/861/24

That is odd, I wonder if its polling for connection?

It's possible for an OS to support fractional scaling properly; just tell applications to render their windows 1.5 times larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font anti-aliasing. The problem is that it requires every app to be updated, which hasn't happened everywhere yet. Android and iOS, for example, do it perfectly. So does ChromeOS.

> (...) just tell applications to render their windows 1.5 times larger, map the inputs properly, and turn off font anti-aliasing.

Doesn't disabling anti-aliasing make things look worse? Unintentional and random jagged lines never look right.

anti-aliasing matters a lot less when you have a high resolution display.

> anti-aliasing matters a lot less when you have a high resolution display.

The original claim is that turning off anti-aliasing would make things look better, and not that it looks bad but not that bad.

Even in high res displays, isn't it true that anti-aliasing makes things look better?

Anti-aliasing at the wrong resolution looks worse than not anti-aliasing at all. As such, if you tell your applications to render things larger than 1x scaling, anti-aliasing starts to hurt more than it helps.

Yes and no. Speaking generally about anti-aliasing, and the method it's done varies a lot in it's trade offs.

Generally anti-aliasing is a trade off between pixelation, blurriness, and performance. The better the anti-aliasing and the higher the pixel count the slower the performance - this can be an issue and some GUI applications like some IDE's at high DPI's. Faster antialiasing methods will look worse.

In an ideal world a high enough pixel density would mean the apparent pixelation is so low that anti-aliasing isn't necessary. Generally anti-aliasing means more blurry - although the amount of blur might not be an issue for you, it depends. The higher the DPI the less pixels that need to be "guessed" which gives you better precision, which is especially useful for vector graphics like text that have theoretically infinite precision.

It really depends on how you define "better". Generally for text specifically I think most people prefer sharpness. This, combined with the much higher DPI display's we have nowadays I think we're at the point where for many people including myself, text looks better without antialiasing. Personally I think it's easier to read.

tl;dr - it depends on how you define "better". At very high DPI's I think we're at a point where many people prefer the sharpness provided by the lack of AA compared to the artifacts that are now relatively tiny thanks to the high DPI. Also in some applications like Intellij I also have had performance issues with AA at high DPI's.

Is it possible GP was talking about sub-pixel font anti-aliasing, which would look wrong when scaled?

Sadly, Linux doesn't support fractional scaling properly. This is a show stopper for me.

Fractional scaling works pretty seamlessly for me using Pop OS on a Framework.

Even Android maps "1dp" to a non-integer number of pixels on most displays.

It looks "perfect" because of a combination of anti-aliasing and high density. But zoom in on a repeating pattern of 1dp lines, and you will see that some are aliased and some are not if your display's density is not an integer multiple of 160dpi (mdpi).

But Android can do this everywhere because everything draws to a Skia canvas under the hood (well, HWComposer/SurfaceFlinger, but basically Skia). Desktop operating systems don't have the same luxury. MacOS and Gnome render at 2x and downscale the entire frame, which produces decent results on high-density displays but look blurry otherwise. I have no idea what Windows does but it sounds like it's a mess.

Maybe you can accept that no project is perfect, specially young projects and that the exceptional effort they put to have the laptop modular are a big benefits for the environment and having less resource consumption, which is maybe, maybe, more important than a retina display?

The environmental benefit of a laptop with modular components is debatable at best and negligible at worst. At the scale of the Framework laptop's production it's meaningless.

As for the display, for a laptop supposedly intended to last years, every human interface component should be the best available option. The ergonomics are important for a long lived device. It shouldn't become problematic just because the owner aged. Otherwise the laptop ends up the same as any other where the owner tosses it after it becomes uncomfortable to use. All the benefits of modularity are lost if it ends up in a landfill.

That's weird to nitpick. That's a software issue not a display issue.

A gentle reminder that every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional scaling as default for years now (and it's not even 1.5). Sure, you can put it back into 2x if you want to. But you can do the same on a Framework, and then you get... wait for it... almost the same vertical resolution as a 2x 13" MB Pro (93% to be exact). If you absolutely need more space and a 2x scaling, there is a large amount of 4K 13"/14" laptops that are more than happy to fill that niche. Free market is your friend :)

So the argument that Windows is somehow responsible for the death of perfect 2x scaling is a bit exaggerated. People just want more space and anti-aliasing is mostly good enough so that no one cares.

I run one monitor at 1.5:1, but it also offers me 1.2766:1, (2160->1692) which is a truly bizarre configuration. It's right at the edge of what I can read comfortably. I don't think it looks particularly fuzzy, I mostly don't use it because I don't like the idea of using such a funky resolution. It feels like it will be problematic, in ways 1.5 won't.

> every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional scaling as default for years now

I have a MacBook and I don't see the kind of display artifacts that I mentioned (grid lines set to same pixel width appearing to have different widths) on a MacBook. Why is that? I have also tried the same test on nearly every Windows laptop at BestBuy, and every Windows laptop that does not have scaling set to either 100% or 200% has this artifact. Even 300% scaling has this artifact. What is Apple's magic that Microsoft has not been able to replicate?

could I suggest trying to figure this out yourself? it sounds like you have the interest and incentive - i'm sure other people would love to know. a blog post about why fractional scaling artifacts exist on Windows but not MacOS would probably be popular (i'd definitely be interested in reading it at least).

Very wild guess: Display PostScript. Or, I suppose, more accurately, its descendant Quartz 2D.

I definitely see it on macOS. Set your display scaling to a fractional amount, then drag a window around slowly. You should see the border lines subtly get fuzzier/sharper/change width.

So you have to set the scaling to a non-default amount, to get that to happen. Of course I would expect display artifacts in that case, because you're forcing it to happen.

The default scaling is fractional on recent MacBooks.

> I have a MacBook and I don't see the kind of display artifacts that I mentioned (grid lines set to same pixel width appearing to have different widths) on a MacBook. Why is that?

You just claimed that this is only possible with 200% scaling. Was that wrong?

> A gentle reminder that every retina MacBook has been shipping with fractional scaling as default for years now (and it's not even 1.5).

You're saying MacOS deliberately uses fractional scaling by default on the 14 inch and 16 inch MBP models, the iMac, Studio Display, and the Pro Display XDR, even though all of them have a PPI that's deliberately meant for integer scaling? If that's true (which I really doubt), it would be extremely counterproductive, to say the least.

The M1 Air and the 13 inch MBP are the only Macs that don't have a suitable PPI for integer scaling.

Using an external monitor with OS X, you're often stuck with those in-between sizes if you don't either have hawkeyes or enjoy seeing super-crisp 1080p resolution taking up half of your desk, which is a waste of space.

I'm mostly not going to be looking at a 1 pixel wide line at 4k on a 27" monitor. At 32" it might be debatable. Above that you're stacking them oddly (top+bottom, one vertical, or both), or you're down to one monitor and the real estate issue becomes a more pressing issue.

I'm at 'stacking weirdly' and my old main monitor (a "4k" monitor that is actually 3840x2160) is vertical, and angled on the corner of my desk. OS X defaults it to 1080p, which is too big a font for how close I sit to it. Full resolution is way too tiny. So I use 1440 (1.5).

The smallest graphics I use are in grafana, and those happen to be on my vertical monitor. I don't see any weird moire patterns when I scroll them, so if there's an issue with line width, it's well covered by things like not using #00 or #ff for all RGB color channels, which tend to show artifacts more overtly.

But then again, it's not just the hardware it's also the software, and Linux has struggled to keep up with Windows and OS X on some issues related to graphics. The saga of good fonts in X took an unseemly amount of time to sort out.

Yeah, Steve Jobs mistake was assuming that 3rd party manufacturers would offer high res displays. 10 years later, and the only high res display on the market that's suitable as a 2x display is Apple's own 5k studio display, which comes with a super high price and a crappy webcam...

If you want something that uses less space on the desk, there used to be some 24" 4k displays which were acceptable, even though the DPI is slightly too low on them for 2x.

So while the 2x scaling worked out great for laptops and iMacs, there's unfortunately only very limited options for external displays...

No it's not 150% scaling. You can run native resolution just fine. With Linux it's actually better than higher resolutions, as the dot pitch is similar to a 27" 4k external monitor, so you can scale natively on both and have windows look approximately the same size. My other laptop is 4k, and it's a nightmare getting scaling to work because it has such a higher DPI than my external monitor. If Linux had better scaling support for HiDPI I'd prefer a 4k laptop but it doesn't, so native resolution is the way to go.

Could you elaborate on why realtek was chosen for the ethernet expansion card? It does tend to have a pretty bad rep, with one of the recent documentations being https://overengineer.dev/blog/2021/04/25/usb-c-hub-madness.h...

Seems to be that the realtek driver issues are mostly for Mac users, which will not be really an issue for Framework users.

I have had many issues with Realtek over the years causing windows to wake. Just changing the network card in my laptop to Intel causes that issue to go away. I won’t buy a motherboard for my desktop if it’s Realtek.

sounds like home is phoning you with a WoWAN from Taiwan

As a long-time Linux user, every time I hear Realtek or see a rtlxxxx driver the blood drains from my head. Just a constant nightmare of crashy firmware and dkms hell. Maybe things have gotten better in the last couple years, but I've steered clear every time I've had the chance.

My ASUS lappy with rtl8xxx WiFi started having issues on newer kernel 5.10.x spewing bugchecks in the dmesg and is locked till reboot. Apparently it's a frequent issue, cause my searches showed it's been happening to others since at least 2018. It's 2022 and not much better.

However! Frame.work is Ina position to be an agent of change!

Realtek RTL8822 WiFi kills cheap soapbox routers, typical for AirBnB and cheap/small hotels. Known problems, no fixes.

I mean, it blocks such routers, not brick them permanently, but result is the same: you and your companion doesn't have internet. At all.

FWIW, I just had a realtek USB ethernet adapter take down my network twice last week when I was trying out with an Android tablet.

It's part of a powered USB hub, and it works fine while the tablet is connected, but after disconnecting the tablet, the ethernet controller stays active, and about half an hour later my entire home network stops working. I had to disconnect the realtek adapter and reboot my network switch each time.

So, their problems are not entirely limited to mac.

That's not limited to Realtek:

https://twitter.com/chx/status/1457848563199721472

Ok, maybe that one is partially the switch's fault.

Also, here's a better link for that: https://www.reddit.com/r/UsbCHardware/comments/qo6r3f/powere...

Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.

How about Aquantia?

As far as we can tell, Marvell end of lifed the USB to Ethernet solutions. If anyone from Marvell can tell us otherwise, we'd like to know!

What about a Thunderbolt connection and a PCIe ethernet adapter - could that work?

The power consumption of this would be too high.

And the cost, probably. 40$ for 2.5Gbit is not that bad of an offering; at 80$, this would probably be even more niche.

Alder Lake is still not fully supported by Linux (improvements are coming with v5.18¹, which is not stable yet, and it will take a while to be released into several linux distros (at least the Ubuntu based)).

It's a shame, because it would have been a great moment to offer an AMD alternative.

¹=https://www.tomshardware.com/uk/news/intel-thread-director-c...

Think most distros have backported the Alder Lake patches to their kernels.

Alder Lake works just fine on Linux, it's only Thread Director which is missing. Not that these machines would really even need it, the current CPU prioritization code seems to work surprisingly well.

Things are fine on Linux even without Thread Director support. I've been running Fedora 36 (kernel v5.17) on a 12900K for a few months now without any noticeable issues.

According to the article above, Linux pre-5.18 will mostly choose P(erformance) cores.

On a desktop context, this may go unnoticed (so, in your cases like yours, it's not a problem at all), however, in a laptop, it will make the CPU inefficient, defeating the point of the Alder Lake design.

I would buy a 15/16” version of this in a heartbeat :) I really hope another chassis with a larger screen is in the cards for framework!

I like the 13" but totally agree.

17" 4k please! (yes, I can do coding with that resolution at 120% scaling)

Right now I'm using a 17" Dell Precision which is a brick of a laptop that weighs over 3.5kg and whose battery life can be measured in minutes as my primary work machine.

I would buy a 17" framework to replace it in a heartbeat

Hdpi, with a more sane aspect ratio and hdr that is suitable for graphics work would be high on my wish list.

I actually like using Darktable. And I like using it on a good screen better. So even though I have a Linux laptop that runs Darktable very nicely (even with just Intel Xe graphics), I actually do a lot of photo editing on my 8 year old imac, which has a 5K screen, fantastic contrast & colors, etc. It shows me stuff my laptop is simply incapable of showing. Darktable runs like a dog on it but at least I can see what I'm doing properly and have enough screen real estate to actually fit the tools in the sidebar on the screen without having to scroll.

I'd love to see Linux laptop that is optimal for graphics, movie editing, etc. Mediocre 1080p screens are simply not good enough anymore. Apple stopped shipping anything non hdpi years ago. Even the cheapest macbook air has a decent screen. Decent contrast, easy to calibrate, beautiful colors and excellent dynamic range. Probably best in class by any objective measure. Why can't Linux users get screens that good? It's not like Apple doesn't buy their parts from the same usual suspects in China and Korea when it comes to screens and other things you need to build a laptop.

> Why can't Linux users get screens that good?

The only thing stopping me from switching from MBP.

Framework is a giant step forward though. Pretty much everything I could want otherwise.

Yeah, my 13" laptop just died on me, and it was just too uncomfortable for me to risk buying another 13" laptop.

The Ethernet port is a big bonus for me too. Oh wells.

I'm waiting on alternate screen options. The 3K2K OLED screen on the HP Specter X360[1] would be a great highend option for me.

Framework is suggesting many customisable options but the wifi antenna is behind the screen so it's not a seamless transition. I would be interested in a screenless framework (with keyboard or just the guts) if they simplify wifi.

So a WiFi module or Cellular module would be a definite buy

[1] https://www.theverge.com/22264792/hp-spectre-x360-14-laptop-...

I'm waiting for a tablet design. I use a 3k2k lcd touchscreen on the HP Elite X2 tablet and while it's a more repairable design compared to a MacBook or surface, would love something with a bit more modularity to add a larger battery or modify the casing (see https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMobileComputers/comments/tcwep0... )

I'd really wish for an AMD motherboard.

The new AMD chips with the RDNA2 is a Linux user's dream. The open source support is incredible.

I thought that the latest Alder Lake CPUs pretty much catched up with AMD in terms of general performance nowadays. And Intel's iGPU support was rock solid even before AMD.

Not really no. The power draw and heat on these chips are nearly 3x the AMD variant.

Th IGPU is substantially better in the new RDNA2 chips, also power draw.

Does anyone know if the Framework team plan to offer an ARM based mainboard?

I'm honestly not even sure that there are any good ARM based SoCs to make a laptop mainboard from, but given what we've seen from Apple's development of their iPhone chips being integrated into laptop and desktop, I wonder if something similar could be done with other existing ARM CPUs from Samsung or Nvidia?

I doubt they'll offer ARM, but the RK3588 is designed for laptops and not embarrassingly slow (about 3x the performance of an RPi 4).

The mt8192 is faster than the rk3588 and already shipping in Chromebooks. Plenty of activity on the linux-mediatek mailing list to mainline support for the currently shipping Chromebooks.

mt8195 Chromebooks should appear soon too, and they are even faster than the mt8192. Mainlining activity is also occurring for this SoC.

Do any ARM SoCs support USB4 (apart from Apple Silicon)? IIRC that is the main reason they cited for not shipping AMD boards.

I'm also interested in this, mainly for the battery life improvements.

Please, please, please make s keyboard option that has full size arrow keys, dedicated pgup, pgdown, del, ins, home, end. The current laptop keyboards, apart from thinkpads, are a joke for those who want to work on them, the framework, sadly, is included.

I'd also love a trackpoint with 3 dedicated buttons but I'll keep dreaming.

I agree about the separate Home, End PgUp, PgDn keys. Still mad at Apple for influencing the removal of these from all laptop keyboards! It's one big reason that I have a Thinkpad, even though their keys aren't as good as a Surface's or Mac's.

Same situation here. When I bought my last laptop, a thinkpad, the main deciding factor was keyboard keys.

In their reckless pursuit of apple and their loaded customers, Laptop makers failed to appreciate how important key layout is to retaining their existing customers. Fortunately, framework (or any third-party) is in a position to offer keyboards with alternate key layouts :)

100% this and given the target demographic, I can't believe I had to scroll so much until I found the keyboard called out.

I'm now waiting for over a year for this laptop to be available in my country.

Would still really like to order one, but my patience is running out, don't have a laptop currently.

EDIT: I sound very pissed off. I know that it's hard to ship to lots of countries, it's just frustrating for me to not even have an estimation. Will I be able to buy it in 3 or 6 months? Or does it take another year? no idea.

If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard, there are services [0] that provide you with an American address and send any packets that arrive there to you via international shipping.

[0]: https://www.myus.com/

I even want an US-Layout, so that's fine.

Wouldn't even have to buy it from the US. Framework sells their laptops in Germany, which is right next to me.

But that means that I have to ship the laptop back to Germany for warranty-related stuff etc.

> If you're fine with import tax and an American keyboard

I never understood this. Why don't companies offer international keyboards in their online american store? It should be especially easy for framework to do this since they already customize their offers/sell kits.

Facing the same problem.

When I first read about this laptop, I immediately jumped to preorder it but found that they aren't sold to people like me. The same happened again when I read this article. Your comment reminded me why I still have one.

The thing is that I'm also starting to reconsider buying one now. I know they're small and barely able to keep up with their local markets, but competitors are starting to notice. I as a non-american would much rather buy from a international competitor who doesn't treat me like a lesser citizen if they can match Framework's level of openness and modularity. Once I buy into their ecosystem, I doubt I'll reconsider framework again. I imagine a significant portion of framework's underserved international market in this position.

I truly wish all the success to the framework team. I just hope, for their sake, that they manage to address international demand before they lose it to their competitors.

This is exciting! I’m very seriously looking at upgrading my mainboard and repurposing the 11th Gen I’ve got now into a DIY project!

I’ve been VERY happy with my Framework and am glad to see this update.

> We’ve redesigned our lid assembly for significantly improved rigidity

They should make this part available to existing users as a warranty replacement. It sounds like they've addressed a common complaint on their support forums.

The lid that flops over because of the hinge's weakness, and the absurd excuses made by company personnel (they claim it was designed this way "to accommodate opening the laptop with one hand," as if the people who open a laptop with one hand do not need the lid to stay upright) has been a great disappointment for me with this laptop. It is a design defect, not a feature, for the hinge to be this weak.

edit: apparently they're talking about this, so I guess we're stuck with the weak hinge:

https://frame.work/products/top-cover-cnc

If the lid drops when the laptop is stationary, the hinge is out of spec and we'll send you a replacement through our support channel.

I'll look into that. Thanks!

As feedback, I had the same problem that you had. I reached out to support, they had me send in a video, agreed that the hinge was out of spec and mailed me a new one.

I installed the new hinge, and it’s more rigid. I no longer have the problem of the laptop falling open when typing on my lap.

Highly recommend contacting support for the hinge issue if you have it to.

What if our replacement hinges are dropping when stationary too?

My framework laptop had no issues with the hinge whatsoever. It honestly might have been a little too stiff for my tastes, but it functioned perfectly, and the screen never budged without me moving it intentionally. (Past tense is because I recently sold it as I was using my M1 MBA way more often, mainly due to how long the framework laptop took to come out of sleep mode by comparison. This isn't really a slight against Framework... Apple just did an unreasonably good job with M1 in some areas.)

I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" complaint. They've been the most common complaint that I've seen on Reddit, but still rare, especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain, and anyone with the hinge issue isn't going to hesitate, since it would be understandably annoying.

> I would not say the hinge issues have been a "common" complaint. They've been the most common that I've seen

Thanks for sharing your insight, you've really clarified things. Ahem.

> especially once you factor in that people usually only go online to complain.

I've never complained about it before on their forums because once a few people let the company know about the defect, and the company gives their lame excuse for why they've implemented such a weak hinge (one handed opening!), there is no point.

It actually is nice to hear that your hinge wasn't weak as that might mean the warranty replacement nrp mentioned is worth doing. I do hope - the laptop has some nice features otherwise.

I have to admit, after roughly 9 months of use, while initially I didn't have issues with the hinge, I've definitely noticed the display tends to flop around when I'm picking up and moving the laptop, or when riding the bus where the laptop is shifting around. For context, my previous laptop was a 5th gen X1 Carbon and I never had that issue with that machine.

I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has loosened up a bit, but that's purely anecdotal.

My guess is this is both a combination of a slightly less stiff hinge combined with the taller 3:2 display, which leads to more torque being applied to the hinge when the laptop is moving around.

> I also can't shake the feeling that the hinge has loosened up a bit, but that's purely anecdotal.

I feel like the amount of resistance the lid has to flopping over actually varies, which is strange.

They upgraded the hinges at some point during manufacturing to address the screen falling down during light movement:

https://frame.work/products/display-hinge-kit?v=FRANFB0001

I believe this upgraded lid assembly is to address the screen wobbling during typing. It's a very thin lid and has a lot of flex, so the tighter hinge just transfers the force into the lid, causing it to wobble. Hopefully this will be eliminated with this upgraded lid.

Nice. I noticed the 'Pre-order now' button for the 12th gen DIY edition goes to the configuration page for the normal edition.

I was confused that all options had Windows installed...

You can still get to the DIY configure page through Product Story -> Pre-Order Now.

We are fixing this now!

Edit: This is fixed now.

Umm, right now, the pre-built page takes you to the diy page instead, even if you click on "Or check out pre-built options"

Any photos of how the ethernet expansion card will look like while plugged in? Looks like it's bigger than the expansion slot.

I intend to keep it there permanently, which brings questions about durability, especially when carrying the laptop around.

It is oversized, but robust enough to keep installed (I have been for the last few months dogfooding it). We'll add more photos of it installed to the product page for it before we open sales on it to make sure folks know what they are getting into before buying.

As in, sticks out past the edge of the laptop?

https://frame.work/products/ethernet-expansion-card

The Ethernet Expansion Card seems to be using USB type C connector. Can it works on non Framework computers?

Also, anyone has recommendation for great affordable router with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports for home lab setup? I've been searching for one but it seems only gaming routers include these ports. I prefer something more enterprisy (lots of options to tinker with like mikrotik or pfsense), but those usually don't come with 2.5 gigabit ethernet ports, instead they (the affordable ones) have plenty of 1 gigabit ethernet ports and a single sfp+ port. Or should I bite the bullet and go full sfp+ for home lab setup?

Yep! It will work as a normal USB-C Ethernet adapter, but due to the form factor, there is risk that you can apply an excessive amount of torque to a normal USB-C receptacle if the Ethernet cable gets pulled.

It doesn't seem like a great option compared to a normal USB-C or A ethernet dongle because of that. Those are slim enough that they're basically a continuation of the ethernet cable and as a benefit also unplug when yanked. This one doesn't even fit within the normal adapter form factor of the framework.

There are "battery life improvement" will those be available to 1st gen Frameworks motherboard or is it hardware related ?

And do anyone know if the bug in the HDMI card preventing it to go to sleep is still a thing / need a firmware update / is hopeless ?

We have a firmware update in testing to improve shut down (S5) drain. For s0ix, we are investigating firmware paths to reduce power consumption. The card itself actually does go to into a low power state, but the USB4/TBT4 retimer stays in a higher power state. That is something we were able to fix in a combination of hardware and firmware on the new 12th Gen Intel Core systems for s0ix/Modern Standby. We're investigating paths to improve this that would work for 11th Gen as well, but nothing final yet.

Congrats on the launch! FW is on my shortlist for my next laptop.

Would you consider having someone on the team do a more in depth technical write-up of the work that went into the battery life optimization? I'd personally be very interested in reading that as a long time Linux laptop user.

Ohhhhh that's why there was a spate of projects posted last week about building computers based on framework mainboards - submarine marketing for this framework upgrade launch. Figured it was framework behind it somehow, but the fact that it's to promote the 'here are some ways to use your old mainboard once you upgrade' angle makes a ton of sense.

Yeah - whenever somebody makes a good thing and people use it in cool ways, that's submarine marketing for that thing.

Sure, it's entirely a coincidence that both https://github.com/brickbots/framedeck/ and https://github.com/penk/MainboardTerminal published 10 days ago, and they're both referenced in this framework announcement. Convenient for Framework that those two projects came out right before their upgrade launch!

But I don't just have my own innate cynicism to go on here! The framedeck project write-up actually contains this disclosure:

   As they were preparing this documentation release, they emailed me to see if I'd be interested in a collaboration of sorts. They would provide one of their laptops and some additional modules for me to build something unique with the only condition being that I released the designs for public use.

Which is fine! This is earned media - Framework got some people to make and open source some cool designs. I wasn't sure, last week, why they were doing that now in particular. Now I know why they're pushing that angle, and it makes sense.

Goodness, people are touchy.

Maybe it's because they only recently released the motherboard as an individually purchasable component?

And maybe that's because they're bringing the new version to market so they're expecting to have some excess stock of the original motherboard that they need to sell down.

It's somewhat less nefarious than that. Before we announced the availability of a new Mainboard that existing Framework Laptop users can upgrade to, we wanted to make sure that there were interesting ways for people to re-use their old ones. When we sent out hardware to some creators, we told them we would appreciate it if they posted their projects by X date, leading to them clustering just before that date.

Didn’t mean to come across as accusatory - on the contrary, it’s smart marketing and totally in keeping with the brand values.

I’m excited about Framework Laptops but am holding out for them to release and AMD-based model. I have no interest in supporting Intel.

Used it for half a year. All works awesome, but I don't know how to update firmwares on my Linux Mint/Ubuntu. There are some guidelines on website, but they don't seem official, and say something like "you may need to fix your bootloader after" which sounds scary that I'll break my perfectly working system.

"The system" is on your hard, yes? Who's stopping you to buy another one for testing and swap them out? This way you preserve your perfect working system AND get to play with your desires on the other one. IMO framework laptop is made specifically to tinker with as much as possible in the end.

The ethernet expansion card looks good.

This was by far our most popular Expansion Card request. We've actually been working on it since before launching the original Framework Laptop. It's just a non-trivial packaging challenge, especially to land 2.5Gbit support.

> non-trivial… especially 2.5Gbit

Elsewhere in this thread:

nrp: “Unfortunately, Realtek is the one and only choice for a USB 3.1 to 2.5Gbit Ethernet controller. We don't like it any more than you do, but there are several niches in the PC peripheral space where there is no alternative to using a Realtek part.“

I like the marketplace idea and hope they can offer a ThinkPad keyboard with a touchstick/trackpoint.

See https://community.frame.work/t/any-chance-of-trackpoint/1026... if this is you too.

Just having different keyboard options would be clutch, the non-inverted-T arrow keys is one of the few things I find to be really flawed.

Sad to see still no 15/16 inch variant, amd edition, or choice of black shell.

That being said I'm glad to see they are following through on the things they promise like upgradable cores. In theory I take it this means if you currently have a framework laptop you can just buy the compute core and upgrade.

I'm still waiting for more keyboards option on a DIY kit in North America. Seems like a waste for a modular laptop that you can't order one with no keyboard. You have to buy a separate keyboard in the marketplace and throw away the english one.

I would like to see a 75 keyboard like the HP Envy 13 x360 with a bar of keys with Home/PageUp/PageDown/End.

Will board schematics be available for repairs? Something Louis has been asking for.

We recently released the subset of schematics that we were able to. Louis did a recent video on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cJj8PUY0DU

When you say able to, do you mean a vendor is holding you back from releasing more? No problem if you can't answer. Sorry my question was for this new laptop, I did see you guys released the one for the previous one which is awesome.

It's likely that the schematics cannot be copyrighted, which means once they are released anyone can spin up their own boards.

You could probably see a flood of cheap Chinese motherboards or entire laptop knock offs.

If that were the case we'd see macbook motherboards, since Louis is able to get entire board schematics.

I don't think what Louis has are full schematics. You could probably reverse engineer board view into a schematic, but from what I saw in his videos there was a lot of missing information - but enough to conduct a repair. That being said - even if Apple has released a full schematic, without datasheets for the parts made specifically for Apple, you wouldn't get an idea of operation of certain bits, so it could be difficult to replace these with off the shelf components.

You are going in circles. I ask if they will have schematics for repairs, he says they do, you chime in saying "if they release schematics anyone can build a board", I tell you that Louis has even more detailed schematics for macbooks, and now you're saying those aren't schematics... can we just agree on something, I'm asking if they will have whatever you call the things so you can look up traces, components, voltages, to repair a board?

All I'm asking is if they will be releasing schematics/board views/whatever they are called for this laptop.

Exciting stuff! Great job, y'all. Any chance RISC-V architectures will be on a Framework Laptop one day?

Hopefully after AMD finally comes out. That would be awesome. A truly open system.

How do these intel chips standup against the current M1 lineup?

I'd love to swap away from Apple to Framework but I gotta say, the current Pro M1 is pretty remarkable.

Is intel in the same ballpark with the 12th gen?

Framework team, I know you hang out here... I'd love a touchscreen+stylus digitizer model with 360° hinge. My Lenovo yoga need a replacement!

Digitizers are really expensive. I am not sure if Framework is big enough to handle this. Just buy a snall wacom tablet and put it next to the laptop that also works.

That is definitely not the same thing as being able to reach up & touch the display, or flip the display 360 degrees into "tablet mode" :) Maybe I'm a minority in liking a laptop to be able to do those kinds of things.

I own a L380 Yoga. Exactly because of this experience i can tell you Framework can't make this yet.

Any plans on adding a touchscreen option in the future ? I almost bought one earlier this year but really wanted a convertible. So I bought the new X13 yoga gen2 instead, which I am quite happy with for now (works well with Ubuntu). I use it rarely in tablet mode though and could probably live without this feature but I absolutely love having a touchscreen on my notebook.

Thank you for making an upgrade kit! Very happy with the Framework I bought 2 months ago but seeing options like this - https://frame.work/gb/en/products/12-gen-intel-upgrade-kit - is nice.

This is so amazing. If I had a 10th or 11th gen i7 laptop, no way I'd rush out and buy a new laptop for two or three grand. But a new mainboard for $600? Yeah, that's an annual upgrade train I can get on!

Given that one of their stated targets is sustainability, this sounds like Jevons paradox [0]. This might be averted a bit, though, if you reuse the old mainboards for things like a homeserver.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox

You can also sell them to people who don't need the latest and greatest and are happy to buy a still more than adequate used machine part

They'd still need a framework chassis, so this market is probably a tad smaller (either they are late upgraders or something broke). But yes, this works, too.

it is exciting to see an upgradeable laptop actually be upgradable.

But I have to wonder what the market for this is? The primary use case I see for something like this is a gaming laptop, which this is just nowhere near being suitable for.

Outside of that use case, for the vast majority of compute workloads is being able to upgrade really a need? I have 2 laptops (well technically 3 but I don't count my work one really). A gaming laptop and my Mac as my primary computer outside of gaming. I tend to upgrade my Mac maybe... 4 or 5 years. Maybe even more than that. My Mac I got in 2019 and feel no need to upgrade anything in it.

My gaming laptop on the other hand... If I had the ability to upgrade that I would likely upgrade parts every year or 2... like a good a gaming desktop.

What am I missing here outside of the excitement of an upgradeable laptop? I don't want to diminish the work on that, I am just unclear the use.

A few weeks ago I spilled an entire cup of sugary espresso on my framework laptop which completely ruined my keyboard by making it a sticky mess. You know what I did? I ordered a replacement keyboard kit for $99, installed it in ~5 minutes, and I haven't thought about it since.

Some other part will fail in the future, or I'll spill another cup of coffee, and when that happens all I need to worry about is swapping out the affected parts. And that's great compared to my previous alternatives with an XPS, which was basically to buy a brand new laptop.

Can't you do the same thing with a Thinkpad?

(Putting aside that Thinkpad is a specific brand, whereas keyboard replacability is generally device-specific)

Framework keyboard replacement guide: https://guides.frame.work/Guide/Keyboard+Replacement+Guide/8...

ThinkPad T470s keyboard replacement guide: https://support.lenovo.com/de/en/solutions/pd104683-removal-...

That Thinkpad model's keyboard replacement steps look way easier than Framework's.

When I spilled a mug of tea on my Thinkpad, I didn't have to replace anything.

Of course there are plenty of laptops that have tons of great features, including repairability, though many laptops have been getting less repairable in recent years (even Thinkpads), so a laptop that makes this a reliable core feature, especially if it even means you can swap ports around, apparently, is absolutely interesting.

Yay! They finally offer an Ethernet card so I don't have to use flaky piece of crap Realtek based USB Ethernet adapters.

(Reads the specs)

Shit!

I hope that if Framework continues to be successful they can start dictating more changes to the manufacturers of the components to make the components easier to integrate into the laptop design. For example, a standard size for Mobos so that makes it easier to integrate AMD/Intel processors

How are the thermals on these chips? 11th gen and prior was bad enough with basically all laptops having significant throttling issues. Is that fixed now on the 12th gen? I bought an XPS 13 last year and even with extensive modding and disabling turbo boost it still throttles the iGPU.

congrats on the update!

framework is a great laptop with macbook-like chassis.

all that's needed to make me and a vocal minority happy is an alternative thinkpad-like chassis.

more like 7 row thinkpad keyboard for starters

I got my framework laptop a little over a week ago and I'm pretty happy with it, but seeing such a huge performance boost is frustrating a little, that said, I bought it to support/encourage the company, so I guess it's working :P

well, it is upgradeable...

Didn't expect to need to upgrade the mainboard so quickly :)

I prefer to wait for them to have an AMD option before changing out the mainboard.

Looks like Framework is ready to take over the role of the compute unit from Raspberry Pi/Jetson for cyber decks[1] thanks to the separate availability of the mainboard and its modularity.

It's also priced reasonably and so I might be able to get it to India without selling my kidney which is not possible with fully-built laptops due to import restrictions i.e. If Framework ever decide to ship to the country.

[1] https://community.frame.work/t/introducing-the-new-and-upgra...

Any plans for discrete graphics?

I came here wondering the same thing. I guess I could just get the eGPU I've tossed around for a while?

Looks like 12th gen DIY edition is €60 more than the MSRP of the old model. Wonder if the price will come down further for the old model.

EDIT: site was down while I was checking this, the 11th Gen DIY edition is €829, so €130 cheaper than 12th gen.

We announced newly reduced pricing for the original 11th Gen Intel Core-based Framework Laptops. We've sold out of some SKUs and have limited numbers of the remaining ones, so that new reduced pricing is likely the final pricing until we run out of those.

Interesting! I was looking at picking one up with my next pay check, so I’ll see what’s available. Thanks!

This isn't "run out and buy" level (that would be 15", AMD 5000 or Intel 12th gen with a dgpu), but it's probably enough to be my next laptop unless something drastic changes in the market by then.

I'm looking at getting a new portable device at the end of the year as my nearly 11 year old Y580 IdeaPad continues to fall apart. I feel like it's between Framework and an iPad pro. It's a little dumb but the amount of content I watch on the thing is high, and having an OLED screen is important to me, it changes the game visually.

I would happily drop $2500 CAD on a framework if an OLED screen became available but I sincerely doubt it is something easy for them to source. That said, having a physicaly Canadian French keyboard is a huge plus, thanks Frame.Work. Oh well, choices to be made.

Do Frameworks laptop work without proprietary software/firmware/whateverware?

If you can run a 100% free software GNU/Linux distribution such as Trisquel on Framework laptops, that would be a definite buy for me.

They do, I run GNU Guix but you have to buy a wifi card that's free software compatible, which must be bought somewhere else.

https://www.thinkpenguin.com/gnu-linux/wireless-n-dual-band-...

I believe so much in this project -- I was an early adopter but couldn't figure out a use case for the laptop, so have been lurking, waiting on sweeter and sweeter upgrades . . . this may fit the bill!

How many external 1080p60 monitors can this drive with the laptop open? 4?

Yep, you can use up to four displays in total. That includes the internal display, so using four external monitors would mean turning off the internal one.

What are the limits for refresh rate and resolution? Also I assume DP/HDMI extension ports are done via USB-C, right? May direct connections to USB-C monitor help?

When there a new laptop release with an Intel CPU, the topic of fans is rarely talked. How is the Framework doing when it comes to heat? I decided that I will no longer buy a laptop that whirls fans whenever you do something more resource intensive or even simply open an app. I have fairly modern XPS 15 and the fan noise is just unbearable. It puts me off coming near the laptop. So it looks like I'll have to bite the bullet and buy M1/M2 if there is going to be a way to run Linux reliably.

'We're not taking orders in your country' COOL THANKS!

Once I get to the checkout and address stage, the only country that can be selected is USA. I think they should let you know well before you have to create an account that this is the case.

Yep. (Still...).

I'm on an 11th gen and just ordered another one a week ago.

Great daily driver!

Same, I ordered just a few days ago! Pity, after waiting for so long, I should've just waited a few days longer and save 70€. Still, looking forward to finally having one :)

>We continue to focus on solid Linux support, and we’re happy to share that Fedora 36 works fantastically well out of the box, with full hardware functionality including WiFi and fingerprint reader support. Ubuntu 22.04 also works great after applying a couple of workarounds, and we’re working to eliminate that need.

This disclaimer -from a company that picks their hw components none the less- is cold water to Linux in the desktop as any sort of "solved" problem

Well to be fair, no desktop experience is solved if one isn't allowed to apply adjustments for their hardware (drivers, user space tools and whatnot).

My experience on Linux certainly isn't flawless, but I have about as many issues whenever I'm handed a Windows laptop as others have trying Linux. Computers suck.

I mean, Apple makes the whole stack, more or less, and I have trouble there, too. So, honestly, yeah. Software is a goddamned disaster.

It is laptop, not desktop ;)

Desktop Linux was historically meant as opposed to server.

Plus, most actual desk tops today feature laptops.

So still a desktop use case: it's just not in "tower" or "mini-tower" or "all-in-one" form.

Linux on a desktop is really quite rock solid (caveat assuming you do research if you are too cutting edge on hardware). Linux in laptops are not as good on battery life and 4k external monitor support has issues (though less so if wayland works on your hardware). The two workarounds they mention for Ubuntu on their page are adding a kernel option to improve suspend battery life, and adding a line in the alsa conf to enable the driver that recognizes the microphone jack they're using...you can hardly extrapolate from those to "desktop linux is teh pits".

> caveat assuming you do research if you are too cutting edge on hardware).

Or just buy Linux hardware with Linux pre-installed, with great support for it...

Not if you buy the mainboard and mount it in a little desktop case!

To be fair to them, _desktop_ Linux is a fair bit easier than laptop Linux. Laptops have many of the components that have been the most neglected/hardest to work with - wifi cards, bluetooth, trackpads, fingerprint readers... All all the worse because there's often less or no choice of provider for the components.

For the most part, on a full desktop, you can avoid most of the need for those, or buy a part that works better.

To be fair to Linux on the desktop, one of the major challenges is synchronization between new hardware platforms (12th Gen Intel Core), and distro cycles (22.04). We fully expect that the next point release of 22.04 will have a kernel that works well out of the box with 12th Gen. Fedora seems to more consistently be able to go out with more recent kernels. Fedora 36 with 5.17.6 works smoothly.

Are distros doing too much customization?

The kernel is famously backward compatible, upgrading during a distro cycle shouldn't be a problem. Yet fedora doing so is somehow exceptional.

You can manually update to a newer kernel and generally have it work as end user. For a distro maintainer though, you have to pick a stable target to develop, validate, and release against. Fedora seems to typically be slightly more aggressive on their intercepts than other major distros.

There's no such operating system as "Linux". I don't know what these "workarounds" are exactly, but if it's something like installing a driver for a fingerprint reader that's present in a standard Fedora distro, but not in a vanilla Ubuntu then I don't see the problem. Of course it won't work out of the box.

We're exploring if there is any other workaround, but it is likely that until a 22.04 point release goes out with a new kernel, it will require installing a newer kernel from Ubuntu's kernel PPA to make suspend work properly.

I'm wondering what's the battery life and power usage under Linux. For many laptops this is a problem.

I've had my framework laptop for about six months and I'm not really a linux adept (I basically just read online guides and bash on my keyboard until the problem fixes itself). But honestly, I genuinely enjoy using the framework laptop with Fedora.

The battery life during light(7w)-moderate(12w) usage is approximately 5 hours.

Stand-by was the real issue in my opinion (it would drain 1-2%/hour). I got around this issue by setting up a swap partition and forcing hibernation after 30 minutes of sleep standby.

Apparently there are some new tweaks that were added to improve standby, but I am happy with where I am and don't want to change anything, so I can't speak to their efficacy.

Do you have tlp installed?

Had this issue with System76, which offers NVIDIA cards that suck on Linux, and various hardware that requires firmware not in the linux kernel or anywhere else, where you have to install and update that firmware separately (like windows).

All they make are Linux computers and they couldn't/didn't/wouldn't for some reason produce a laptop that just natively worked.

Recently I built a new PC, and after having Nvidia driver issues for years on my old PC, I decided I'd go AMD instead.

After at least 10 years using Linux, I'm back to Windows.

The main issue I had was a very intermittent flicker on my screen when I'm on 144Hz. This happened on Wayland and X11. Almost every single distribution had this issue; OpenSUSE, Fedora, Arch (and derivatives), Debian, PopOS.

The only distribution where this wasn't a problem was Ubuntu which worked great for a while, but I updated and had a few issues. Also, realised after briefly trying other distributions that Snaps were really slow, so I just couldn't stay with Ubuntu. I tried disabling Snaps, but then the store broke and the non-snap store kept crashing (I generally install software via terminal but it's nice to browse and see what's out there occasionally).

Oddly, I've found Windows 11 mostly okay - at least I have no flicker at 144Hz.

Love the Framework idea, but I just upgraded my desktop from a 5950x to a 12900KS and I had to go from a 280mm AIO to a 420mm AIO just to keep it from thermal throttling. These 12th-gen Intel chips put out A LOT of heat. I hope that they offer an AMD version with one of the upcoming Zen4 mobile APUs. The Intel integrated graphics continue to underperform, especially compared to the Ryzen APUs.

I'm definitely a fan of the Framework, but I'm not a customer yet. They just don't differentiate enough for me yet. Perhaps in the future they'll branch out a little bit more by offering things like a touchpad with real buttons, a non-chiclet keyboard, a USB module that combines multiple type-A ports and a microsd reader on the same module, etc.

I like the concept of this laptop. I really want to like the laptop itself, enough to buy one.

But for me, it always comes down to the experience of the user interface--the keyboard, trackpad, and screen. And that always brings me back to Macbooks and ThinkPads. I'm a Linux fan, but 'ability to run a specific OS' is not even in my top three must have features.

Any plans to sell a full laptop kit minus mainboard? I have a Framework with the 11th Gen CPU (that I love very much) and I like that there is an upgrade path to the 12th gen CPU, but afaict that would leave me with an 11th gen mainboard that I can't turn into a second laptop easily and would be hard to sell for the same reason.

People put the mainboard in a 3-d-printed case (the plans for which are given away by Frame.work) to make a tiny desktop computer (like a NUC), so a mainboard would sell.

Considering you'd like to buy both a complete laptop minus the main board (to put your existing main board in), and a main board (to upgrade your existing 11th gen), I'm sure there's a solution we can find here...

Ah, yeah, a little bit of creative thinking gets you quite far with this issue!

Thanks :-)

Love the shoutouts to the recent Framework Mainboard cyberdeck projects. Framework is clearly right out in front in terms of hacker community goodwill. Keep it up, guys -- push it further. With enough clout, as an OEM you might be able to push back against Intel on things like ME, and make our hardware even more freedom-respecting.

I had a look and it looks like everything is upgraded- the chassis, the motherboard etc. So if you wanted to take advantage of all of the improvements you’d need to buy them all. At which point it might be less materially wasteful to but another, less recyclable laptop that uses fewer parts ?

You don't "NEED" to upgrade your chassis. Even if you do, it's just one piece out of the 3 pieces for your chassis. You'd be upgrading your motherboard and CPU. You can reuse your wifi, storage, ram, your expansion cards, your display, your speakers, your keyboard, your touchpad, your battery, powersupply, cables...

That being said, you don't need to upgrade from 11th gen to 12th gen. Maybe in a few years when 11th gen isn't cutting it for you anymore you can upgrade to 15th gen.

It's great that they provide a path for upgrading, but the more important thing here is having more recent hardware for someone who wants to buy a framework in 2022.

On a tangent about the 12th gen i5s, does anyone understand why the cheaper SKUs remove the E cores and not reduce the number of P cores? I suppose Intel intends that power efficiency (battery life) should be a premium feature now.

That's because Intel uses the E/P cores differently ARM chips usually try to use E cores primarily for saving battery, so they only use P cores when performance is necessary. But Intel uses E cores to allow for higher multi core performance while staying in their power budget and the available die space.

i5s get the same amount of P cores as i7s, so their general application performance is pretty similar. But then if they compile/render something the many small E cores make the CPU faster without melting the system down...

The thermals are also why Intel 11th [1] gen had a maximum of 8 cores, while Intel 10th [2] gen had a maximum of 10. AMD pushed forward with their up to 16 cores and because of how good their performance per watt is, they could cool them. Intel noticed with 10th gen that they couldn't achieve high enough clock speeds with so many cores.

[1] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/... [2] https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/series/...

Huh it feels like that thing only just came out... I had no idea it was already out a full year.

I wonder if it also offers FreeBSD support.. That would be amazing. Though it's probably a long shot especially for the alder lake version.

Why oh why does every decent laptop have a 1080p screen? Apparently, if I want something other than 1080p I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?

> I either buy a MacBook and pay the Apple Tax, or I buy something overpriced and often terrible in every other way?

So it’s not really a tax then, it’s a quality cost.

Because Linux's support for HiDPI (specifically, fractional scaling) is limited.

This laptop has a 2256x1504 screen. The webcam is 1080p.

The Framework Laptop's display is 2256x1504.

I'm pretty excited about this Intel P chips of the 12th generation. It's seems they are going to be a good competitor for M1 for the Linux world. At least, benchmarks show good numbers, we'll see.

Looks like they didn’t change the screen resolution or size, There is a person here always complaining about it and might have a point. Believe content has to be scaled 1.5x which is problematic.

Super excited about this launch today! Come work with us on the Rails monolith that powers https://frame.work/ if you're stoked too - we're hiring a Senior Full Stack Engineer: https://jobs.lever.co/framework/1d6559b2-ccf9-4391-bded-6303...

Lots of exciting projects coming up as we expand the Marketplace around the world and have more big launches on the horizon. Fully remote, and having every other Friday off is a nice benefit :)

It is awesome that Framework is so extensible – I would love to see either an integrated 5G modem, or a 5G expansion card. The latter is tricky because of antennas…

I am staying in a 2017 laptop waiting for framework to become available in the wider world. Really hope to hear about would wide availability as soon as possible

Please make your forums have a link to the actual site.

2 years warranty, no AMD alternative, Windows preinstalled, sadly I'm not sold yet. Maybe I'll go with System76 this time.

Really happy to see this, although I must've bought one of the last Gen 11 Frameworks at full price (literally 2 days ago ).

I would contact them and ask them to adjust the price. You are within the return window and it is cheap goodwill.

Any news about lvfs support from framework?

Haven't been able to find anything beyond his Jan 6 2022 tweet [0]. No response in the forums for this question [1] from 4 days ago. Frustrating to not be able to upgrade BIOS for Linux users without resorting to Windows or replacing boot loaders

0. https://twitter.com/FrameworkPuter/status/147913722834957517...

1. https://community.frame.work/t/lvfs-3-07-bios-availability/1...

We have LVFS updates in lvfs testing but there is a bios capsule update bug that wipes the boot entries on update. Feedback from 3.07 was that some distros fail to boot after the update because they do not put a efi loader in the fallback path of the ESP partition. So we are hesitant to enable LVFS on 11th gen due to this issue. The code that handles this runs from the previous bios, so we cannot fix this in the capsule. We do offer a EFI update which you can use without booting into windows. https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/framework-laptop-bios...

I really, really wish they would not use realtek for gigabit Ethernet and would an Intel chipset NIC instead.

Can I reassign the ctrl and fn keys? I don't use Fn and it is super annoying that it is where it is.

If not you can almost always swap with Caps lock via software. That should slowly break the dependence on the corner key.

Glad to see the upgraded version, I hope they'll open ordering in Italy soon!

just waiting for a 15inch version to come out. Any ideas when that might happen

GPUs please! Make it happen!

When we gonna get AMD

Please allow order from Australia.

Ryzen?

my next laptop!

When will you support a 2K (ideally) (or 4K) OLED panel? I'm a software developer and I'm not going back to the blurry text era and the non-contrasting movie/games era. Also come on you need thunderbolt support, egpu is a key advantage in 2022. So I appreciate the concept but currently you are not enough for my needs.

If I wait six more months to buy will they have a really solid linux story?

Does anyone know if this would be difficult to connect to a second monitor?

I know I'm getting ahead of myself and there's a lot of work on this space but please consider something similar for phones too

Will Framework sell knockdown kits to assemblers?

why am going to pay $1100 for an i5/8gb/265ssd when I can pay $700 for a i5/12gb/1tbHDD. This whole thing reminds me of the PANDA project from early 2000s and you all know how well that project worked out.

Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. Unless other vendors get onboard and you have competition, you are at the mercy of the single vendor's pricing and existence. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts?

https://frame.work/products/laptop-12-gen-intel/configuratio...

https://www.costco.com/hp-17.3%22-laptop---11th-intel-core-i...

> Laptop are throw aways. At the end of their life you recycle them and get a new one. The single problem I see with all these type of total upgradable devices is that you are still locked into a single vendor. How good is an upgradeable laptop when the vendor goes out of business and you can't buy parts?

I agree with your skepticism. But, I don't agree that it has to be this way. Framework is giving another model a chance, and yeah, it may fail. But Frameworks are no /more/ disposable than any other laptop, so I guess I don't see a downside to at least giving it a shot if it's at an acceptable price and has a desirable feature set. You're right that the commodity hardware is cheaper, but I guess I can live with paying a bit more to try something else out and support an alternate model.

Well first off the laptop you linked is an 11th gen cpu vs the frame work which just upgraded to a 12 gen. The framework isn't an amazing value dollar for dollar, spec for spec. That is not why you buy one though...

Is all about the upgradability, the open source aspect, sustainability, etc. Good luck if you want to open your Lenovo laptop and want to get it warrentyed for anything.

Having used a laptop similar to that linked HP in past and now comparing spec sheets, I don’t really think it’s in the same class as the framework laptop at all.

Compared to the framework, the HP’s:

- CPU is a generation behind

- Screen has low PPI (less sharp), very low brightness, and is probably a TN panel, meaning colors will be more dull

- HDD which is a lot slower than an SSD anyway is 5400RPM, which is slow even for an HDD

- Battery is 14Wh smaller

- Webcam is 720p instead of 1080p

- Bluetooth and wifi is a whole major version behind

- Charging port is one of those old terrible barrel jacks that gets loose quickly

And the build quality is most assuredly not in the same universe. Laptops as cheap as this HP are built on razor thin margins, which means that manufacturers are cutting costs wherever possible. This gets you things like creaky flexy cases, loose wobbly hinges, chintzy keyboards, bad trackpads, and oddball bargain basement components with less than amazing performance.

In short it will be a lot less pleasant to use, even ignoring that huge gaps in the spec sheet. Models from other manufacturers that would be more comparable to the framework in specs and fit and finish are the M1 MacBook Air/Pro, Dell XPS 13, and Lenovo ThinkPad X1 Carbon.

Other vendors are free to produce compatible parts. They publish physical dimensions and cad files on github.

Everything about this is as interoperable as possible, both physical and software.

Maybe no other vendor will produce a motherboard or keyboard, but it's not Framework's fault.

Second, The closest competing product to Framework is Lenovo not HP. (Despite the fact they look like a Mac's aluminum body, huge buttonless touchpad and black chicklet keys, with a Surface's screen aspect ratio.)

HP's customer is someone who would like a Surface or Mac but doesn't have that kind of cash, or just cares more about a distinctive look that isn't gamer.

Here's HP's customer: I got my mom a top of the line maxxed out HP because she will never care about upgrades or repairs or Linux or raw power, but she does care about the blingy rich bronze look, and I care enough to steer her away from Surface and Mac even though I don't care about the cost. That's HP's customer.

I WAS actually able to replace the battery in her previous Spectre (the sweet thin one with the funky hinges that looked like hoop earrings or wedding bands) to give it to my niece when I updated mom, but HP did not make that easy.

HP are premium-looking Chromebooks that run Windows.

Framework are user-serviceable open platform Lenovos.

"Why would I spend..." You clearly wouldn't, so don't. But I would. Why? goes like this:

I don't particularly care too much about AMD vs Intel, but a lot of people are asking for an AMD cpu motherboard.

Let's say Framework did not make a an AMD motherboard, but someome else did. Let's say that the only way to get a Framework was to either buy a whole Framework including an Intel mainboard I don't want, PLUS the 3rd party motherboard for $500 or whatever it is. I would rather do that, because I want that open platform. First, Framework would not make me buy the entire machine, they would let me buy everything but the main oard. But even if they didn't, that mainboard I didn't want is actually useable all by itself like a 900 horsepower raspberry pi. Or I could sell it, because it's useful to anyone else too. Or I could keep it as a backup in case I damage my prefferred board. That platform which makes all kinds of options possible, is valuable to me.

No one yet makes any such 3rd party mainboard, but the platform at least allows for it and makes it possible vs not-possible. I want that. That is valuable to me. I will pay a lot for that.

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