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Comment by erohead | Hacker News Reader

I’m a long-time small phone Android user. But after the Pixel 5, I have not been able to find a suitable small Android replacement. The Pixel 6 is gigantic, and the Pixel 7 looks like it is also destined to be huge. It’s gotten so bad that I’ve resorted to using an iPhone Mini, biding my time and hoping desperately that some Android OEM would step up.

But it’s increasingly clear that a small premium phone is not on the roadmap. So I’ve decided to take matters into my own hands. My goal with https://smallandroidphone.com is to rally other fans of small phones together and put pressure on Google/Samsung/Anyone to consider making a small phone.

I have a very specific set of skills and industry connections that I have acquired over a long career in the hardware business (my first startup was Pebble). I will put them to use in our shared quest to get the perfect small Android phone. If no one else builds one, and enough people sign up...maybe I will be forced to make it myself.

If you want a small premium Android phone, this may be your last chance (ever?) to help bring back the phone category that we love.

View on HN

I have baby hands, I am a dwarf.

With each generational increase of display size, The number of times I drop the phone over its lifetime increases proportionally. I've used android phones from 2.8" to 5.7" display as daily drivers over the past decade.

I assume, Many with small hands(palms) do face the issue of dropping phones, So I finding it quite surprising that 'Easily Repairable' wasn't included in neither 'Must have' nor 'Nice to have'.

Repairability is so important to me that, I have stopped buying new smartphones since 2017. My last/current phone has full-metal construction, is easily repairable, has security updates(sans proprietary blobs) via LineageOS and I'm planning to switch to a postmarketOS device from near-same generation for better security(Only bootloader is proprietary).

IMO in the age of Fairphone, there's no excuse for a non easily-repairable phone; Especially one which has community interests in mind. I wish you the best on this endeavor.

I’m not a dwarf, but I do have smaller than average hands and really struggle to type on a phone one handed. I dropped my phone a lot trying to balance it.

Have you come across pop sockets? Small collapsible self-adhesive handles for the back of your phone. They’ve made an absolutely massive usability difference to my phone usage (although I aim for the smallest handset I can get without compromising too much on quality anyway). Total game changer

I tried pop sockets on the phones of my friends, my fingers are too small and stubby that I felt I would drop the phone more by fiddling with it so I didn't use them.

Btw checkout Swiftkey's one-hand mode for typing, If you haven't already.

Thanks for referring to Fairphone. I didn't know they existed and am considering getting one.

Welcome, I assumed everyone knows about it here hence I didn't include much details about it[1].

Fairphone, Founded on the principles of ethical consumerism have consistently delivered on their promises which by itself is an extraordinary feat in the world of smartphones (or) consumer electronics in general.

Occasional but common criticisms on their devices from HN include specs not being competitive with flagships and build quality not up to expected levels(But newer devices have got good feedbacks on the build quality).

They are only available in EU + few other countries, If you don't live in their supported countries list then getting their phone might not be advisable as getting the parts easily for repair is their main USP(Besides telecom radio support).

So if you use phone as a utility and not as sustenance then Fairphone is a good choice if you can get it, Besides money goes to a socially-invested business.

[1] https://www.fairphone.com/en/

I have largish hands and I still find the pixel 6 painful to use due to its sheer weight. the pixel 3 really was the perfect size for me.

> pixel 6 painful to use due to its sheer weight

Weight is indeed and important factor. I recently held an iPhone13 Pro Max with acrylic case and was shocked by its weight,

iPhone13 Pro Max: 240g

Pixel 6: 207g

I hope that extra weight goes towards rigidity of the phone, Anyways its not intended for people with small hands.

Yes, I'm as frustrated as you are. I want a no-compromise 4" Android phone, comfortably usable with one hand. For me, the phone is a communication device for the outside, that's it. I hardly use it at home except for calls. My primary device is my laptop. I have exactly zero use cases that would benefit from a large screen, yet all of my use cases would benefit from being able to fully use it one-handed. I don't watch any kind of video on my phone because it's a torture either way, and I'm okay with smaller fonts to make more things fit on a smaller screen.

It's gotten so bad I contemplated porting Android to the iPhone SE. Not the complete OS, just the userspace, enough to run SystemUI and apps.

Except: a headphone jack is a hard requirement. If a phone has no headphone jack, it could as well not exist for me.

Very much the same situation for me. I'm especially interested in why Eric doesn't mention the headphone jack -- does he simply think it isn't a noteworthy feature, and assume the phone WILL have the jack? Or does he assume that bluetooth is the future and only silly luddites like us care about the jack?

I hope Eric eases up on the weirdly specific requirements, like dual rear cameras, symmetrical bezels, and a punchout front camera, and refocuses on features that make or break the phone to end users.

I agree that the requirements should be pared down to the absolute least common denominator, but disagree that the headphone jack belongs in that category. You (and GP) surely have to recognize that at this point requiring a headphone jack is also a niche request.

That's just fiction phone manufacturers want to make true by repetition.

Bluetooth is the new line-in/out.

No. This software-controlled madness susceptible to interference from microwaves can't possibly be a replacement for just plugging things in. It's literally a Rube Goldberg machine for sending an audio signal between two devices that are a meter apart.

Phone are available with and without headphone jacks. The ones without sell better. The ship has sailed, move on.

Uhhhh no. Most phones lack headphone jacks these days, so of course the ones that still have them would sell "worse". The same can be said about screen sizes, there are no new phones smaller than 5" "because no one buys them". Of course no one buys something that no one sells.

There are myriad models available with headphone jacks. If it's an important feature to you, you have a lot of choice.

The best-selling mid-range phone in the world was the Samsung A51 if I'm not mistaken. I have one and it has a headphone jack. It's only the highest-end phones and tablets that don't have it.

> mid-range phone

I said "phones", without qualification. So while your factoid is interesting, it has little to do with what I wrote.

The fact that the lack of a headphone jack was normalized by Apple with the release of an iPhone 7 doesn't mean it's any less of a nonsensical idea. Unlike storage media, wireless can't supersede wired simply because each of these options has its own strengths and weaknesses and whether one is better than the other is highly subjective.

Everyone I know gets annoyed from time to time that their modern phones lack the jack.

A lot of people are willing to go without it because practically nobody makes smartphones with the jack any more. But given the choice of a phone with, say, 2% less battery and a jack vs. a phone with a slightly bigger battery and slightly better waterproofing... I'm pretty confident what more users would choose.

I am more concerned about the lack of a microSD card slot.

I'd love a microSD card slot as well. I suspect, though, that it's less popular a feature than the headphone jack. Until 2016, almost every single smartphone had a headphone jack. Maybe 50% of phones at best had microSD card slots.

That being said... the Xperia compact series is all the proof you need that a small phone can have it all. Good battery life, flagship camera (though understandably you won't have as many sensors as a giant phone), a headphone jack, a microSD card, good battery life, waterproofing, a fingerprint sensor...

It's such a shame that people continually insist that technology we HAD in 2012-2016 is impossible today. All I want is an Xperia Z3 Compact with modern bands and software support.

Hey! I got the Z3 Compact as well. Besides the medicore camera, it was a great device! Too bad mine died with some crappy Google app update (constant reboot loop). Happened on my Shield Tablet as well...

Why is the headphone jack so important? These days there are very good wireless earbuds. Except as FM antenna or to plug into legacy devices...

because it works (TM) everytime, no compatibility issues whatsoever.

Because I own nice headphones that I like to listen with, I like that they never run out, I like that I can plug them between my phone and my computer as I please instead of praying to the fickle bluetooth gods that they will sync.

It's not that I have never owned wireless headphones, in fact I am literally forced against my will to own and use them and am wearing them as I type. They have some convenience, but adding a headphone jack doesn't mean not being able to use bluetooth headphones - I should just be able to use both.

Reliability (no dropping 'pairing', no interference)

Security (no practical eavesdropping)

Simplicity (just plug the damn thing in and get a hard connection; the connected device is much simpler)

Options (nothing prevents having both Bluetooth AND headphone port)

The only reason it's eliminated is it's convenient for the manufacturers and they try to sell it as if we all want it, clearly a marketing lie.

>Security (no practical eavesdropping)

https://bestsecuritysearch.com/hackers-can-eavesdrop-victims...

Yes, there are ways to extract signal from almost anything.

Eavesdropping on either the output of the headphones or the audio data before it leaves the computer/phone is the same for wired vs Bluetooth. The latter seems to be the mode used in the (pretty coo) hack you posted - it's software attacking the Realtek chip, which must be driven by the wire, so exploiting the quasi-equivalence/reversability of speakers/microphones and the back signal from the speaker diaphragms.

This still requires access to get malware onto the device itself, and I'm more considering 'drive-by' or remote attacks in my comment.

To do this against a ~1m wire with millivolt signals without putting a clamp around the wire seems pretty tough in contrast to cracking a signal that is explicitly broadcast with not great security. Not only that, while eavesdropping the signals on the headphone wires will yield only a conversation in the room, which can be much more easily gathered directly, cracking a Bluetooth 2-way comms channel will yield much greater access to the device.

For most of us, neither is a concern, but it certainly is for people who do have real security needs, e.g., I've read that the current VPOTUS specifically uses wired headphones for this reason. Many people who also work with Classified information, Controlled Unclassified Information (CUI), or just with business security issues have the same need. Failing to produce a device with this capability is a failure to address a key and leading market.

Because:

1. I already have nice earphones, I don't want to spend another $200-$250 for no reason (the going price of most wireless earbuds I've been interested in)

2. Way lower latency than bluetooth.

3. I have too many things to charge as it is. The reduced anxiety of having 1 less device to charge is worth something to me. I know USB-C to 3.5mm dongles exist, but a headphone jack is still better.

4. I oppose the idea of companies artificially taking out basic hardware features (that we've always had for 10+ years) just so they can force more disposable consumer goods to their users year after year.

Bluetooth is shit.

>>These days there are very good wireless earbuds.

Yes, and now I ended up in an idiotic situation where I have to have a pair for every device I own, because switching bluetooth connections is an unbelivable pain in the ass. No such problems with wired - you only need one pair, you plug them in, they work, end of story.

Not to mention issues like audio sync, which is just broken as hell. As an example, using top of the line headphones(sony MX4s) + a top of the line phone(Galaxy S21), audio isn't in sync with anything other than youtube. Playing games? Enjoy hearing your shots 1s after you fire them. And using them with windows? Now everything is slightly out of sync, because windows is a flaming pile of garbage when it comes to bluetooth audio.

It just works. Bluetooth does not.

Just to get the same audio quality in BT earbuds are going to set you (me) back 10x more compared to wired ones. And then what all the sibling comments said.

The USB-C-to-3.5mm dongles are bothersome, but they're not that bad. You buy one for each headphone you use, and expect to replace each of them once or twice a year. It sucks, but it has stopped the headphone jack being a /hard requirement/ and instead a nice-to-have.

If a smartphone is just the communication device for you, why don't you get Samsung Galaxy Xcover 4s?

Thank you for taking initiative on this! As a 5'5" woman with small hands, I haven't had an android phone that I could use with one-hand since my Nexus 5 (which I used for 5 years straight). The current android flagships are unwieldy even with two-hands for me, and it's been just a quality of living downgrade ever since my Nexus 5 broke. I'm not into apple products myself, but I know many other women swear by the iphone mini since it's the only phone that fits their hands.

What did you think of the Pixel 5? It's only 0.5cm taller and otherwise more or less identical in dimensions.

I used a friend's once and it seemed fine! Taller height is generally more manageable. It's the lack of one-handed keyboard usability that irritates me the most with modern android phones, and that's more of a width thing.

I'm a fairly large person (185 cm and decent sized hands), but I prefer the mini, and in my Android days used the Xperia mini. I don't particularly want a large phone on a day-to-day basis.

Unfortunately it seems that it's a niche that doesn't generate enough revenue to get broader support.

I got the feeling, that niche markets could be lucrative if the middle man (retail) is left out. The internet is a very powerful tool in this regard. It brings together customers from all over the world.

I actually think the loss of retailers is part of the problem: without places to go and touch and play with things, we've become increasingly beholden to reviewers and shrill opinion factories to try and evaluate things. Niches, especially niches that rely on non-spec driven evaluation, wither and die.

5% of people who buy an iPhone think that the mini is a good choice, but literally every review or discussion of it is positively hysterical about battery life. If you haven't picked one up and handled it, you'd think that it offered no merit and was going to shut down 2 hours into the day.

A recent discussion on this at my work was centred around the notion that large phones don't generally fit in women's clothes pockets (when they have pockets), as the pockets tend to be smaller. There seems to be an inherent sexism in phone design (and clothing design, and many other things).

Overwhelming majority of women I know always carry a purse. I have yet to see a phone that doesn't fit into the smallest purse.

Maybe that's because women's clothing tends not to have pockets?

That is very culture dependent, I think. I don’t know a single woman who usually carries a purse! (I live in Norway. And maybe my acquaintances are unusual. But still.)

This is really interesting! I live in the UK. I know exactly one woman who doesn't carry a purse and to a big degree it is due to an injury.

Obviously, these are tradeoffs decided by the capitalistic (pseudo)majority. It’s not sexism. (And I have hands smaller than your average woman.)

I've been mostly wearing men's pants for the past few years to get past the pocket problem (skinny leg men's pants fit me pretty well and still have OK pockets). I'm probably in the minority though, most women just carry a pocketbook.

I'm a tall man with large hands and my S10 is uncomfortable. Just ordered an iPhone 13 mini after finding out that the Pixel 6a, my last hope for a small Android phone, will be big. This will be my first iOS phone despite 10+ years on Android. The situation is idiotic.

Thank you for working on this! I want to be honest, though, and say I think you're missing what the majority of users on this forum want in a small phone.

> Sub 6" display, matching size and design of iPhone 13 Mini

No, bad. What most of us want are the particular set of trade-offs made by phones around 2015. Design wise, that means that you've got to have another hole in the bezel, because there's going to be an earphone jack. That's apparently anathema for modern phones, but probably 90+% of us want it. Again, that's Hacker News specific. I haven't polled the market in general. I just know that I (and many others) won't consider buying your phone unless it has a jack.

Likewise, I have not much interest in a phone with a hole punched in the screen (?!) for a camera or an ugly "notch". I realize this is more controversial, but I don't know the last time I even used a front camera. I think it's more in keeping with the ideal 2015 design to make the bezel just large enough to contain a camera, speakers, light sensor, flash/LED, etc. I would reluctantly buy a phone with a camera hole if it was otherwise acceptable and there was no ideal option on the market.

I'd prefer if the back were completely flat as well, with no camera bump. That's totally just my aesthetic preference though, I don't know how others feel. I think it should be possible to achieve this if we're going back to not worshiping thinness, and making the small phone thicker for the sake of battery life.

I'd also prefer a 16x9 display to whatever Apple is doing now. So much web video is still 16x9.

> Design wise, that means that you've got to have another hole in the bezel, because there's going to be an earphone jack. That's apparently anathema for modern phones, but probably 90+% of us want it. Again, that's Hacker News specific. I haven't polled the market in general. I just know that I (and many others) won't consider buying your phone unless it has a jack.

Your jump from "I want" to "90+% of us want" is an egregious failure in reasoning. You say that you haven't polled the greater market, but you also haven't even polled HN.

That's fair. On the other hand, if there's a single issue with modern phones that gets HN users raging more than their size, it's the lack of a headphone jack. I don't think I've seen a single issue that's been more complained about. The dominant narrative on HN seems to be that even if one doesn't use headphones personally, the removal of the jack served no purpose other than to pad the pockets of Apple. (Someone even managed to modify their iPhone to add an internal jack without breaking it, so it was definitely possible for Apple to do so without compromises.)

This is a bias in what you notice, not what people care about. Some people care strongly about headphone jacks, but until you have data indicating that some==most, you shouldn't let that feeling turn into a population-based argument.

That's entirely possible, but this whole thread is based on exactly the same perception! The claim, possibly false, is that a sizable portion of HN users want small phones. That could be just visibility bias as well!

My comment is asserting that if we're assuming that the narrative on HN around small phones is not just sampling bias, then it's also good to assume that the narrative around a headphone jack is not just sampling bias. That means we have to believe that a large percentage of users looking for a small phone are also looking for a headphone jack - basically, what I called a "2015" design.

> The claim, possibly false, is that a sizable portion of HN users want small phones. That could be just visibility bias as well!

All you need to do is look at iPhone sales metrics. The iPhone 12 mini and SE2 collectively were 10+% of iPhone sales in the second half of 2020 and first half of 2021. 10% of iPhone sales is 24 million phones per year.

> if we're assuming that the narrative on HN around small phones is not just sampling bias

_We_ aren't. You shouldn't be assuming anything about some supposed narrative on HN at all, and you definitely shouldn't trust your own perceptions of such a narrative when you've already shown that you mentally translate "I and also I saw some comments some times" into "90+% of everyone here".

Such a narrative not only doesn't really exist, even if it did exist it still wouldn't matter, because, again, we have sales numbers for small iPhones that prove that people buy tens of millions of them annually when available.

> you mentally translate "I and also I saw some comments some times" into "90+% of everyone here"

First of all I said 90% of people here who are interested in a small Android phone, not 90% of everyone here.

Second, I feel you're trying to make me feel like I've gone insane and can't trust my own eyes by pretending that threads about the lack of a headphone jack don't routinely make the front page here [1] [2] [3] and that comments about the lack of a headphone jack don't routinely become the highest voted comments in any thread related to phones.

I don't think your point about iPhone sales holds any water, because you could just as easily show that people buy phones that have headphone jacks. The 12 mini is a smaller phone than the 12, so you could argue that some people who don't care about the size of their phone might be preferentially buying the mini! There's no way to make an airtight argument for either a headphone jack or a small phone as someone arguing on a forum, but I believe there are a lot of people who want both.

Moreover, my argument is that the removal of the jack was not done for any engineering reason, but for profit and aesthetics. Even if you are right that 50% of people would use a headphone jack instead of 90%, that's still a perfectly legitimate reason to include one.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18538881

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31356405

[3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17997487

No bad. I don't want those iritating headphone wires. Also a phone that doesn't mind being dropped in water, so no headphone jack please. Notch is not really an issue, front facing camera is useful for video-calls. And i don't have a camera bump, that's solved by the case. Also, no idea what i'd do with memory cards, there's plenty memory in the my phone.

The iphone 13 mini works well for me. No idea if this represents anybody elso on HN...

> Also a phone that doesn't mind being dropped in water, so no headphone jack please.

People have somehow managed to forget this, but phones have been waterproof since ... basically forever without forgoing a headphone jack. I could link probably half the phones made between 2012-2017, but this phone is actually linked by the site itself: https://www.theverge.com/2015/10/16/9549247/sony-xperia-z5-r...

Honestly, I'm not sure what the issue is supposed to be here. I've literally never, in 12 years of owning a smartphone, dropped it in water. I have no clue how that's even supposed to happen short of it falling into a river.

Since this is a small phone, I suspect most people will probably not be using a case that adds significantly to the size. Just a guess on my part though. I can live with a camera bump if I have to, I just think a lot of us miss the candy bar designs of ~2014-2015.

Some might want to do it on purpose… like recording videos in a pool or lake. I’ve done it with a 6S, it survived just fine.

The most common way that a phone gets into water is that a woman has the phone in her pocket and it falls into the toilet. Most women's clothing has extremely terrible pockets that cannot securely hold a modern-size smartphone.

I've never dropped a phone in water either, but what I did do was ride a motorbike in heavy rain with the smartphone as GPS and no case around it.

I am typing this from a waterproof phone with a USB C port and headphone jack. Yes, I have put it underwater. There were plenty of waterproof phones with headphone jacks before flagships dropped the port.

Similar user, and I have no idea if there will be anything left to buy after the Pixel 4a. I expect the 4a will be good enough for another 3 years at-least, if there are no accidents.

Hopefully by then there is something available which continues the form factor. 4a has been the perfect successor to the Nexus 4, it's a little taller but other than that has practically the same footprint.

With the 6a moving in a different direction (eg: removing the headphone jack) I'm just hoping someone else comes along as a spiritual successor for the Pixel Xa-series.

I am also planning to move from a 4a, and at this point it would be either a Sharp R7 (probably not available internationally though) or a Sony Xperia 10 IV.

The Sony seems to be the best alternative though I have no idea of the software quality.

> Sony Xperia 10 IV

Unfortunately, it looks like it won't be sold in the US. Does it support US LTE bands so I can import it at least?

Band support seems to be better, though I’m not sure which band would work in the US. Also they haven’t announced the non carrier bundled model yet, so I’m stil waiting as well to see how it pans out.

Is Sharp R7 your option? It's just a normal sized (read: big/weighty) flagship phone.

I've been burnt by Sony. Back in the first generation of the compact flagship. A great phone in all aspects... Until it was dropped. A tiny crack in the corner of the screen, you wouldn't notice without looking for it. Unfortunately engineering choices by Sony folk meant that any crack anywhere disabled the digitizer (i.e. the touchscreen loses the touch part). Such a bummer.

Countering your anecdote with mine.

I have an Xperia 10 II (or something like that, the slimmest Android device I could find back in early 2021). The back cover is cracked all over, to the point I sometimes get cuts on my fingers. Two of the corners have dents.

The back camera that takes the actual photo is several degrees off (like 10 or 15°) from whatever is used for the preview. Works perfectly in all the other ways. Probably isn't waterproof any more, but I never needed that before, either.

Is there a crack on the touchscreen itself though?

List of smaller Android phones with decent specs:

Pixel 5 - 144.7 x 70.4 x 8 mm

Samsung S22 - 146 x 70.6 x 7.6 mm

Zenfone 8 - 148 x 68.5 x 8.9 mm (could be higher thanks to narrower body)

Xiaomi 12X - 152.7 x 69.9 x 8.2 mm

Samsung S21 - 151.7 x 71.2 x 7.9 mm

Sony doesn't produce phones, but remote controls. Their software is nice clean, but their camera is pretty bad, might as well buy Zenfone 8 if you don't mind camera.

Probably not what you would deem decent specs .. but small.

SHIFT5me - 141,5 mm x 71 mm x 9 mm

https://shop.shiftphones.com/shift5me.html

only 3mm shorter, but other dimensions bigger than pixel 5 plus MUCH smaller display thanks to huge bezels

>Sony doesn't produce phones, but remote controls. Their software is nice clean, but their camera is pretty bad, might as well buy Zenfone 8 if you don't mind camera.

I imagine few who have used one would ever be able to say this with a straight face. I never met an iPhone user who believed me when I told them all the photos I was showing them were taken with an Xperia XZc (1 and 2, respectively) and that's with every single one of them. There may be half a dozen compact smartphones that really compare to the XZ2c. Sony just gave up on them because the herd loves their phablets so much.

I am also a current owner of the Zenphone 8 and its camera is also decent. If it's really important that you be able to snap the best photos possible, though, they've been developing these discrete camera things for over a century (and the best of them will likely continue to outperform any general purpose device for the foreseeable future).

Meanwhile the iPhone 13 mini is 131.5 x 64.2 x 7.7 mm

There's really nothing small about any of the Androids.

Snag up a lightly used Pixel 5 while you can. You get 5G and it is basically the same form factor, just a bit better all around. (I've had both and the Pixel5 is a step up for sure)

The 5 was already available here when I purchased the 4a (Europe), but the 5 was twice as expensive - which is hard to justify for "a bit better".

A headphone jack is much more useful for me personally than 5G, so I happily saved the money.

5G is completely useless in The Netherlands for the time being (until at least end 2023). You can safely ignore it if you're from NL. In other countries, how useful it is going to be depends on your use-case. For example, German autobahn has good 5G coverage.

I've been looking into the Asus Zenfone 8 to replace my 4a eventually. It's expensive but it's compact.

I like the form factor of mine. Only thing I don't like with it is the battery time, which is shorter than I'd have preferred. But I bought it almost a year ago now, there might be a new model coming that fixes that.

A spare battery could fix this. Of course, only if designed this way.

I was about to buy exactly this after reading reviews, wanting a compact phone, and my Note8 dying.

But for a few different reasons I ended up just getting my wife an S22 (non plus) and then inherited her S20 (non plus), which has a very similar form factor.

Definitely felt the OPs frustration in looking for compact Android phones. They just plain don't exist.

I've been very happy with mine. As another user mentioned, the main issue with it is the battery life isn't as good as some other Android phones, but it's good enough that as long as I charge it daily I rarely have to worry about it. Though I do really wish it had wireless charging.

Another Pixel 4a user here. I haven't found a single compelling reason to move to another phone, and will drive this one into the ground... Hopefully there's a suitable replacement once it's dead, otherwise I'll just buy another 4a

Yeah, I've been using the 4a for about a year now, it is pretty sweet. It's the phone I wanted after the Nexus 5. (but with wireless charging). The size is great and it's light. I hate heavy phones.

I faced a similar problem when I didn’t find a sanely sized flagship non-bloated (though that’s essentially an oxymoron in Android world including the Pixels) Android phone sometimes back and I decided to vote with my wallet and I bought the first iPhone SE, then 7, and now 12 Mini. I am an Android developer and the way the OS is designed (UX and privacy wise; even the stock one) I don’t really see myself moving back to Android anytime soon but I wish there was a a flagship normal sized phone.

I dislike Apple for a lot of things but in this duopoly the size of a phone is such a fundamental characteristic that you’re out of options anyway.

I think most of the people are “swiper users” — the “content consumers” — so they want big phones and OEMs are simply making what the near 100% majority (yup!) wants.

Growing up I was told the major advantage of capitalism is that you get a diversity of offerings. This seems less and less true as time goes on, but maybe it was always an illusion.

It is only true when entry barriers to the market are low. Capitalism will give you a diversity of toasters or beer. Complex tech devices like phones have higher barriers, you can't just hack up a phone in a team of 5 people. Besides, economy of scale makes niche products more expensive.

The pixel 4a will be good for another 3 years? What kind of apps are you using? I'm still using a Samsung S7 and don't plan to replace it until it explodes or turns into dust. Then again I don't play games, but I do use it extensively to write/browse/chat. It's somewhat sluggish, but who cares? This idea that we need perfect loading times and constant high-tech phones is such a spoiled mindset.

> It's somewhat sluggish, but who cares? This idea that we need perfect loading times and constant high-tech phones is such a spoiled mindset.

It is, however, probably not a great idea to use a device that hasn't had a security update for several years.

Even if you were using a custom ROM and trusted that it was correctly patched (which is a big if) then there's hardware exploits on the Snapdragon 820, and I imagine there are probably similar on the Exynos 8890. Some of these can't be mitigated by software.

Just buy another Pixel 4A. There must be a brand new model still available with some retailer.

I have an iphone SE 2016 because I too felt that new Androids were too big, switched in 2019. If too many people are upset at the price maybe you could have an Android Mini-a like the Pixel line.

I had the first Pebble and have fond memories. I have high hopes for this!!!! I also love hardware but I never made it stick for work. I was one of the first engineers at Mesur.io, but things didn't work out.

My other thought would be to make this highly configurable; there is a large cohort of HN crowd who also want an un-Googled Android phone, myself included. There are no un-Googled small android phones, however with Project Treble many of them can run GSIs such as this most popular one https://github.com/phhusson/treble_experimentations/releases . Of course Lineage OS deserves a mention, maybe you could ship with that, build on what the community already offers.

The Unihertz line of phones deserves mention, but also scorn; they do NOT support their old hardware at all. The Jelly had 1 update to Android 8.1 and was left for dead. Additionally the system updater software included in the stock ROM was spyware. So unfortunately they were written off in my book.

Finally, I would like to see band 71 LTE availability for T-Mobile in the US. It really makes a big difference in the sticks. Unihertz does not support that, and for that reason I am sticking with my iPhone SE 2016 for the moment (until I find a small Android phone....)

Can't wait to hear more!

I always wondered about Unihertz. I almost considered one of their keyboard devices. Thanks for the heads-up.

Thanks for mentioning my GSI ^^

With regards to Unihertz, I'll add on top of what you said, that they are hiding behind ""crowdfunding"" to give non-existent customer support, while devices have already passed Google certifications months ahead (so my guess is that the device is actually already produced when they start the crowdfunding). In my case, the smartphone I ordered never arrived, and I never got any compensation for it, even though

However, hardware-wise, they aren't too bad, so once you managed to receive it, and you flashed a GSI on it, it's a rather acceptable experience. I know someone daily-driving a GSI (I think it's ProtonAOSP?) on Unihertz Jelly 2, and they are happy with it.

In my opinion, Unihertz small phones are fun, but /too/ small. As the article says, target would be 5-5.5" borderless, 4.5" in Jelly2's format, and I couldn't find any model that match. Closest is Xiaomi Qin 2 Pro (I have it, the form factor is really awesome), but it is too thin and thus its battery is abysmal. (If anyone is interested in Xiaomi Qin 2 Pro, yes it can run GSI just fine, but it requires a bit of work - feel free to send me an email for help)

I use an S10e. Love it. It's not small-small but def small by todays standards. Probably switching to an iPhone here soon

I also got an s10e because iirc it was the only smallish Android phone with ok specs and ok IP rating (also I avoided Chinese brands—though Samsung isn't necessarily everyone's choice either). Very comfortable format!

Why? S22 has almost same dimensions.

List of smaller Android phones with decent specs:

Pixel 5 - 144.7 x 70.4 x 8 mm

Samsung S22 - 146 x 70.6 x 7.6 mm

Zenfone 8 - 148 x 68.5 x 8.9 mm (could be higher thanks to narrower body)

Xiaomi 12X - 152.7 x 69.9 x 8.2 mm

Samsung S21 - 151.7 x 71.2 x 7.9 mm

I've gotten the s10e just last month because it's the top phone that can still run linux on dex (which is a disappointment, but that's a topic for another day), and doesn't have those stupid Samsung edge displays (s10+ 12GB RAM edition).

I'm not sure those other phones are any better in terms of running linux (termux) and those non-samsung ones don't even have dex so I don't even know what the high specs are for.

S22 should be good once it's no longer the latest phone and you can grab at a discount, and maybe Android 13 with KVM is out by then.

I'd love a small primary phone with good battery life for general use (SMS/IM, and (shock!) making/taking calls). Relatively low resolution screen would not be a problem at all.

But I, like most people I expect, also use my phone for many other uses some of which make good use of a larger screen at higher resolution: in-car GPS and while running/walking out on the trails, web browsing and social media stuff that would not be pleasant on smaller screens, occasionally video. The better screen necessitates a bigger battery too, increasing the weight and size a bit more.

I'm not sure there is a solution for that, other than perhaps carrying two devices around. Most people would not be happy with that solution and tethering the bigger device to the smaller ones (so they share internet connectivity instead of both needing SIMs & paid accounts) will reduce the battery life of the small device noticeably (running the 4G/5G and WiFi radios constantly being quite a drain I find, when tethering a laptop to my main current phone).

For a lot of people who would want the smaller phone, there is a secondary need for which they want the larger one too, and putting up with a big device for everything is likely to be the preferable “compromise” compared to carrying two devices.

I've considered the two device approach, but the only really small phones (significantly smaller than my current main device) I found were cheap Chinese imports and one of the first corners cut on those is using a cheap battery that won't last long on active use. Battery life is why my current phone is large than the previous one (which was already larger than I'd prefer often) as it can last a goodly while in active use (GPS and screen on).

tl;cbatr: I suppose the point of this directionless rambling, is that I think the market for a smaller device, people who would actually buy one rather than just those who think it is something that should exist, is smaller than you hope.

This is where I am. Love the idea of a small phone like the android Palm Phone, and almost bought one. But my iPhone 13 Pro Max is basically so big I use it in place of my laptop for many, many things. So it basically replaces my dslr because of the camera quality and my laptop unless I’m writing software. Though I would love a small phone, I didn’t buy the Palm which would have been perfect for when I’m running or something, so I’m not sure I would buy this, even though I want it to exist.

Palm phone fwiw also got discontinued for lack of interest as far as I know.

Palm phone was expensive with garbage specs. But I suppose I was never in the market for it; I wanted a phone that was good enough to be my only phone.

The specs are indeed garbage, but I've been using it as my daily driver for over a year and I really don't want to change to anything else since the form factor and weight are just so nice for when I'm out of the house. For reading the news at home or similar stuff, I do use an old Pixel 3a though.

You can still buy it on Amazon [0].

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Palm-PVG100-Premium-Unlocked-Titanium...

> in-car GPS and while running/walking out on the trails, web browsing and social media stuff that would not be pleasant on smaller screens, occasionally video

I think the last time I considered screen size a limiting factor for these activities was when the flagship phones had 4.5" screens or so. We've gone well beyond what's needed for me to find the screen large enough for regular activities, and well into the realm where I find using my phone with one hand to be uncomfortable.

Size isn't the reason I went with the larger phone last time I upgraded - it was the longer active (rather than standby) battery life. I can be a fair distance from any source of power for a goodly time and not worry about it shutting down for that reason. Even smaller devices (of those easily available at the time) showed less endurance in independent tests, due to having the smaller battery in their smaller form and/or less advanced chipsets, the exception being one with a lower resolution screen but that was a compromise point too.

> I'm not sure there is a solution for that, other than perhaps carrying two devices around. Most people would not be happy with that solution and tethering the bigger device to the smaller ones (so they share internet connectivity instead of both needing SIMs & paid accounts)

People do that all of the time and gladly pay the extra $10 for a smaller “phone” - the cellular Apple Watch.

I will leave my phone in a heartbeat when I’m going to the gym, the pool, or anywhere else where a large phone isn’t convenient and I still want to be able to keep in touch with people

I would think if you were running that you would prefer a smaller screen, having to stick a gigantic slab in my pocket whenever I transition from my walk to my jog constantly reminds me that I've got a brick flopping around in my shorts.

I never had a problem using a GPS on a small iPhone hooked up to a magnet on my dash in my car before, I can't imagine an extra inch and a half of real estate making that much of a difference.

> I would think if you were running that you would prefer a smaller screen

On of the reasons I'd like a smaller device, though there is the already stated compromises around smaller battery too, and it being a general use device. If I had a small device with excellent battery life I could carry that normally and tether a larger device, in my backpack when not in such use, for mapping and other when needed (I'm not talking nipping out for 10K here, sometimes this is full- or multi-day walking-or-faster events).

> having to stick a gigantic slab in my pocket … reminds me that I've got a brick flopping around in my shorts.

While the perfect phone doesn't exist, I have found the holy grail of shorts: big enough pockets that the slab fits, but tight enough and small enough that it doesn't jiggle noticeably, but not tight to me such that is exacerbates sweat in that patch. Also, the phone for nav on long routes is tertiary, I have breadcrumb trail on my wrist and a printed map (on rip- & water-resistant paper), so if I'm going far enough to require a bag for water/foot/1st-aid/other then there is room for the slab in there too and it isn't too out of reach.

Curious how would you solve the battery issue, since in your spec you mention 4Hrs of Screen On Time (SoT), and it would be a 5G phone (battery drainer)?

iPhone Mini with its H/W & S/W integration barely manages 4Hrs of SoT. An 'Android Mini' phone with its mini batteries, how can it match upto iPhone Mini? And mind you, low sale of iPhone Mini is also due to the 'battery/range anxiety' that its users have.

Upon that any Mini form factor needs to be even less thinner, as visual perception of thickness is inversely proportional to a form's face/back surface area. So for this mini phone to be reasonably attractive (not chunky) it needs to have a very slim profile; which translate to small battery.

I get that tastes vary and some people apparently don't mind the hole punch in the display, but I'm curious why you list its presence as a hard requirement. It seems like it would make the display unnecessarily harder to source.

I want headphone jack and SD card compatibility back, so I can store my audio library somewhere else (more reliable and less costly) other than the cloud, but phone makers are bent on disappointing customers and customers keep buying whatever junk they make and label as overpriced flagship devices.

I bought a Palm Phone as soon as it came out, it is the perfect phone. Basically same size as the old Motorola Razr but even a bit thinner.

I'm very sad they discountinued it. I hope mine lasts forever or that either Palm or someone else fills this market gap for a small phone. If this initiative does it, thank you!

My highest requirement for a phone is that it easily fits into the front pocket of tight jeans so I can't ever even feel that it is there. The Palm Phone meets this requirement, haven't found anything else that does.

One of the reasons I want a small phone is because I already have other devices with a larger screen: computer, laptop and tablet. That's why I want it to be cheap, I have already spent a lot on different devices and for the little use I give it I want it to be cheap and small.

Of course. But phone manufacturers don't want this. They don't want you using those other devices. And they have the power, so you will submit to their decisions.

why don't they? then they could sell me two things! back in the day i had a motorola droid AND a xoom.

I think than some two of the prerequisites are the real problem :

* Great cameras

* Stock Android OS

There are plenty of recent small smartphones with a display under 6". But most of them use Android Go and a not-great camera. I have recently tested one, the Logicom Le Wave, a 60€ phone with a 4" display sold in Europe.

During my test, i have find Android Go 11 very reliable. It's even more easy to avoid using Google applications and to not link the phone to a Google account (by using F-Droid & Aurora Store) than Stock Android. There are also nice features for managing battery usage. That said the two cameras are indeed crap (but i do not take photos with a phone, for this i use a real cameras). My main problem with this phone is that it's also bad for... phoning: I mean than the sound quality is crap too.

I was probably unlucky with my choice, but there are plenty of alternatives for 4" to 6" smartphones. Search for "teenage" or "unbreakable" phones.

If the real objective is to have a light phone, who fit nicely in the pocket, than can be used one-handed and who won't fall out of the pocket while bicycling, then this sort of phones are perfectly fine. So my question is why the need of a good camera and stock Android ?

(For the main point, i agree with you, smartphones are becoming ridiculously too big)

I've never owned a better phone than the Xiaomi Mi 11 Lite 5G because it's substantially thinner and lighter than any other phone of that size. A smaller screen size may be nice but I've realised how much more I really care about the phone being thin and light. I don't even notice it in my back pocket. I'm now allergic to picking up the new heavy iPhones.

If the smaller screen wouldn't make the phone even thinner I probably wouldn't care enough to switch.

If you can make a phone I love as much as my Pebbles, I'll buy nothing else, forever. I guess confirming there's a market for it is the first step.

My phone requirements haven't changed much in the last ten years. I bought one of the first "phablet" phones with a comically oversized 5" screen that got me ribbed by friends ("compensating for something eh mate?") Now 5" is at the bottom of the available size range. I'm a smallish person/manlet and don't need a phone I'm going to drop, but I do need something big enough that I can reliably type on it.

I'll gladly support your endeavor. Thanks for taking the initiative.

edit: fine with me to make the phone thicc so it has a day+ battery life. A little thicker is far easier to hold on to, anyway!

edit2: I did own a Pixel 6 non-XL for about a day. It was large, but the bigger problem was that I found it incredibly topheavy, which made it difficult to hold on to. I swapped for a used 4a 5G, which is a well-balanced midsized device.

It's pretty damning that when one searches for 'best small android phone' the pixel 5a (massive!) is at the top of most lists.

Maybe they are conflating Pixel 5 and 5a. 5a is larger but 5 while still a big phone, is not that bad.

The Pixel 5 was just right IMO. I upgraded to a Pixel 6 after the fingerprint sensor had problems. The first thing I noticed was it was too big. I liked the size of the five much better.

I think Sony Xperia 5 is a premium phone in you spec target range

Why only aim for 4 hours of screen on time? I understand the battery will be smaller too but so is the screen. I'd hope to see a bit more. Also, remember that most people won't care about thickness so much especially if it's rugged enough to not need a case.

But anyway good luck with the project! I backed the first Pebble and I'll probably use Beeper once it's fully available. You have a history of delivering on your promises. I just want to wait a bit to see how this one turns out in detail.

I have a Pixel 4a, and I'm in agreement with you. I'm thinking about jumping to an iPhone Mini, however, even Apple doesn't seem to be making a new version of that....

i dunno what makes you think that. the iphone 13 mini was released alongside the other iphone 13's and is the latest gen. all signs point to apple releasing a mini version of the next iphone, too.

Yeah, I'm 100% switching to Apple on my next upgrade, probably the mini, but it's screen may be a tad too small. Either way, I've been with Android since the start, but I'm over it. They depreciate so fast.

My Pixel 3 is just a bit bigger then the iPhone 13 Mini... works great with Lineage OS... might have to change the battery in a year though (not looking forward to it).

I just replaced the battery on my pixel 3. I also replaced the USB C port, because it was cheap and the phone was open. It's pretty simple to do, just tedious. I would recommend buying a replacement back as well so you don't have to worry about keeping the glass intact.

I would love a smaller phone then the pixel 3 but I'll stick with this for now, it's my absolute max size.

thanks for the tips, will definitely try to replace the USB port and back when I do the battery. Is your phone still waterproof?

No not waterproof, but I didn't try very hard. I would sort of prefer the phone to be easier to open. I used t-7000 glue which seemed really good, the main spot I feel like is not waterproof is where the finger print reader attaches to the back panel, and the camera lense cover.

I might replace the fingerprint sensor if it's not too expensive because that's the part I'm having the most issues with...

Looks like it's less then 5 bucks. I bought everything from injuredgadgets. I'm sure there are other good places as well. Can't really review the battery, it's only been a couple days, but so far it's good.

I’m in the same boat, though I like apple. I’d still go for an android phone if they made something really small though.

However, I think the era of small phones as we know it is over for now. The smallest we have is the Mini, and even that isn’t small.

In fact, I think the next version of the small phone will be flip phones. We already see this with the Samsung fold. I tried one and was pretty impressed, and I feel like this is the likely direction the industry may take.

However, I’m using my current phone for the next five or six years. I’m sure by then, the folding screen tech will improve a lot, and apple may even have their own version out by then.

Samsung S7 user here. Perfect phone. Good looking (silver one is awesome), no notches, great camera, good battery.... and perfect size. It's hard to accept for companies that they already achieved a great result, and only minor improvements need to be added. Maybe because if they would keep selling S7a, S7b, etc people wouldnt be so convinced to buy new ones so they need to make changes and somehow convince people the many changes are for the better... even if they aren't.

When I broke my Pixel 5, I bought another one, even though the Pixel 6a was out at that point.

The Galaxy S22 has a similarly-sized screen, but the EU version is rubbish.

List of smaller Android phones with decent specs:

Pixel 5 - 144.7 x 70.4 x 8 mm

Samsung S22 - 146 x 70.6 x 7.6 mm

Zenfone 8 - 148 x 68.5 x 8.9 mm (could be higher thanks to narrower body)

Xiaomi 12X - 152.7 x 69.9 x 8.2 mm

Samsung S21 - 151.7 x 71.2 x 7.9 mm

S22 has almost identical dimensions as Pixel 5, so there is your upgrade. Personally I find all of these overpriced for what I need, I would be perfectly fine with 4A specs with better battery, so can't justify to upgrading to some of these.

I just had to throw away my Pebble Time ~1 month ago. It was the best watch I could have asked for but I got some ocean water in it and it wouldn't dry out this time :( I am also using an Moto G7 Play android phone from like 2018 because it's the only small phone I could find for a reasonable price. I would love to see you make something like this!

Pixel 7 dimensions: 155.6 x 73.1 x 8.7mm

Pixel 7 Pro dimensions: 163 x 76.6 x 8.7mm

Pixel 6 dimensions: 158.6 x 74.8 x 8.9 mm

Pixel 6 Pro dimensions: 163.9 x 75.9 x 8.9 mm

I would buy your phone, but I don't really like the iPhone mini industrial design. The square edges make it a bit hard to hold. I also don't mind if it's a bit larger than iPhone mini. Pixel 3/iPhone 13 size is my limit.

If nobody makes something like this, I'll likely switch to iPhone 14 when it's released.

At the moment it looks as if there will be no iPhone 14 Mini. You don't explicitely mention "Mini" here, but from context it looks as if you mean that. Just a heads up (and the reason why I bought a 13 Mini even though my old phone was still fine).

By the way, I was interested in Beeper but it seems the airtables link to sign up blocks any ip addresses from Hong Kong. I just get a blank page when I try to sign up. Just bringing it up, I have noticed quite a few sites have blanket bans on HK ips but it's rather frustrating.

I'm curious why you say "After the Pixel 5". Isn't that still pretty current specs wise? I love mine. I too would like to know where I'm moving next, but I'm also quite content with its specs for likely awhile yet.

I want to add another comment here supporting the fact that the camera is probably the main device feature I care about, and why I end up with a phone fancier and bigger than I’d like, and maybe second most important factor is battery life.

I agree with you, but the Pixel 5 is barely a year old. Why did you move on so quickly?

Pixel3 here, cause it's still pretty small (but not too small)

please reverse the order you list the phones in your last image... no reason other than it irks me that the lowest phone in the image is listed highest and vice versa

Hear hear! I hope your gadget guy dreams come to fruition again and you sell 10 million! I only am chiming in to say a premium phone should be water resistant!

If this phone allowed for 2 SIM cards, I would pay a silly amount of money for it

The Pixel 6a is supposed to be nearly the same size as the Pixel 5, I thought.

Sony dude. The screen ratio makes it feel small in the hand.

What are your thoughs at the Zenphone 8? 5.92 is too big?

im using one now. and yes, i consider it too big to use one-handed without dropping it.

also, the physical buttons are way too easy to press. every time i hold it, i accidentally press something :(

5.5 inches is about the limit for me, with pretty avg hands, imo.

previous phones were sony xperia compacts. last one was xz2 compact and felt pretty good, though could have been a tad thinner/lighter.

Jelly 2

Samsung S22

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