It's not even clear how FOSS would even work in this market or how it would benefit the user when it would be hosted all on someone else's server with self hosting diminishing the ease of collaboration.
It's not even clear how FOSS would even work in this market or how it would benefit the user when it would be hosted all on someone else's server with self hosting diminishing the ease of collaboration.
It’s not capable of creating precise or maintainable documents (e.g. no styles as others have mentioned), which is a very common need that it’s adjacent enough to that lots of people use it for and then it fails.
That is, I should be able to define a "Code block" style that should appear in the same dropdown where google docs lets you select heading levels. When I select that "Code block" style, the app should format the selected bit of text according to the syte's definition. For instance: use a monospace typeface, apply some margins to this paragraph and paint a gray background on it.
Likewise, I should be able to update the style definition and all code blocks should update accordingly.
This is very basic functionality that has existed in word processors since... forever. Large and/or more complex documents are simply much much more painful to maintain/evolve without this feature.
I wasn't aware that Google has a different one. I have never used more than simple sums and differences in Google sheets. Can you give an example where Google offers better, incompatible functionality?
[1]: https://support.google.com/docs/answer/3093343
But working on large files is ridiculously painful. It's just not as as good as a native app. I don't want to give up my ability to work on large files in a performant fashion, which I do all the time, in exchange for collaboration support I do occasionally but a worse overall experience and frustrating lag compared to a native application.
I don’t really use either Word or LibreOffice much as my needs are really simple, (I mostly get away with just plaintext tools).
What is it that separates these two for you?
Is it some specific missing features you rely on or something to do with UX?
It's a common problem with Open Source: who does the slog work of testing, tracking down, and fixing the simple bugs and perf issues? Evidently, LibreOffice doesn't have enough maintainer cycles to have good coverage of common setups. It's unfortunate and as a developer I feel for them, but as a user it makes paying Microsoft an easy choice.
As a reasonably serious user of Office 365 and someone who's desperately wanted to like LibreOffice, I'm not sure what you could mean by "properly use styles". I'm guessing this is specifically a critique of the Word web app, but the native Office apps also do "online, live collaboration", and it all generally just works. Even Apple's overlooked suite feels more mature (and offers a dramatically better user experience) than LibreOffice.
That said, AbiWord is a serious lightweight contender to Writer.
However, it's far, far better than any browser-based one I've used.
If I just want to make notes, I'll use Org or Markdown in plain text. These can also be converted to HTML for web.
If I want to print something with lots of text, nothing beats LaTeX.
If I am making something design intensive, I'll use Scribus or some other desktop publishing software.
I guess regular people think of word processors as the Swiss army knife here: does everything, not particularly well, but worth only having to learn one software?
Microsoft in my opinion is a company that writes good core logic followed by trainwreck UI/UX teams only eclipsed in their destructive cabability by the user hostile marketing and profit department who keep trying to get me to do stuff like upload sensitive documents to OneDrive through some absolutely intended bad UI, or default to the most expensive resource selection in Azure every time you hit the back button on their forms.
[1]Local-first software You own your data, in spite of the cloud:
I understand the current situation as a result from evolving business models, that lead to better profits when the control is taken away from the user and they have to get into subscriptions for continuous use. Basically the Adobe CS story. This manifesto doesn’t touch the business aspect at all, so I’m not sure what to take from it.
In particular, this is small anecdotal case study on how a calendar booking/rental system can work with Git [1]. For me this is a wonderful example of application for Local-First software albeit a simple one.
[1]Ask HN: Why hasn't Git been adopted outside of software engineering?
And to be honest the only FOSS content creation software that actually competes at the professional level (i.e not just simple edits) with proprietary tools is Blender: As in, would people use this software, if all the (currently proprietary) alternatives were also FOSS? But inkscape doesn't need to compete. So I don't think it's getting left behind in the dust.
I'm sure too that most inkscape users would much rather have a lot other improvements, than moving to the web.
Does Inkscape have GPU rendering yet or does it still slog down on anything more complicated than a minimalist icon?
I, for one, am glad that Free/Libre software like inkscape continues to be heading strong, and find that it far outpaces any of the proprietary malware SAAS applications out there.
In what way do you find Inkscape to outpace e.g. Figma? That would be interesting to hear.
Now imagine you are part of a team that wants to solve BIG problem, over a LONG timescale. Suddenly the picture becomes more nuanced as software features aren't the only thing that matters anymore. Would you really want to make the success of your project dependent on a third-party software company whose objectives aren't aligned with yours and that can take the tools you use away from you on a whim? FOSS makes a very strong point there. The interface may not make you cry and melt your eyes with shiny buttons, but you can be sure that years down the road the software will still be there and you can read your old files no matter what, as the file formats are open. You can depend on the software, and,.more importantly, you can assess and proactively mitigate the failure modes in advance! (E.g. the tex files from the 90s that you can find on some researchers website can still be compiled today; I imagine the entire research community would be significantly hindered if they would have to deal with the zoo of formats of proprietary software, rtf, doc, docx etc. In this sense FOSS can even act as the catalyst for establishing a standard, as is the case for tex files in domains of science.)
Though I agree that for image editing specifically, typically projects are probably not longer than you few months, so in this you case I imagine you could go without issues with the flow of new and proprietary software.
Ecosystem is limited unfortunately, eg hard to find someone on fiverr to deliver penpot files instead of figma
It just seems that people who work on FOSS value privacy, ownership and freedom more than braindead ease of use and monetization.
Design is a very collaborative process, especially with remote work which has made having everyone see and edit the same thing at once critical. It's not "braindead" to work in a team, its a requirement. I really want to see FOSS succeed but its hard to see how the open source benefits translate over to this kind of software where you no longer run the software locally and consistency is needed so others have the same version of the tool as you.
There are some open source movers in this space too: https://penpot.app/
Unfortunately, the problem is companies powered by ad revenue have a lot more money to throw at usability than FOSS folks do.
A huge issue is that the gatekeepers of "open source" don't believe making it financially viable is something they need to address. So it's gonna end up being the best we can do in our spare time for the love of progress.
It doesn't help that Sandstorm focuses on apps that are architected with a devops-heavy mindset. Many apps don't really need anything more complicated than PUT and DELETE (no POST special handling required), esp. since they're already doing so much on the client, anyway. This really calls for an auth-protected document store more than it does what Sandstorm tries to provide; the difficulties of "getting people a server" probably starts with assuming/insisting that that's what you need to do in the first place.
Those kinds of architectures are only necessary when you really do need some way to offload computation to a remote, high-availability machine, but things like online image and document editors aren't that. (Even then, what you really want for that is some sort of mobile code architecture that lets you squirt lightweight payloads at some sort of fleet of faceless workers, preferably in the same/similar form to the kind of code that you write for doing useful work on the client...)
And thank god for that.
Users literally hate the Adobe model, but aren't given a choice.
Please remember what the 'F' in FOSS stands for. Hint: it's not about money.
They might complain but at the end of the day they are very happy to pay adobe for the best in class tools.
As a proof of concept about the possibility of a design tool with the potential to share information in this way it's intriguing.
I'll also add that a major pain point of FL/OSS tools for me is that so many of them HEAVILY depend on local file descriptors which makes remote storage access a PITA.
For the hobbyist/small business though these regular desktop tools are still a godsend
I think the opposite will eventually be true, a browser is no space for complex documents.
> Even a lot of the big name proprietary tools are finding themselves becoming rapidly obsolete in a world where people want to IM a link and just have it reflect the latest version rather than attaching files back and forth.
O365 has worked like this for years and it works well.
Why not? What UX paradigms can you do in a desktop that can't be done in a browser?
Oh, but it does: https://penpot.app/
The good news for FOSS is that hosting costs just keep getting cheaper, so providing free SaaS is increasingly feasible.
There’s also the “third way” of FOSS with a hosted option available. Wordpress is a good example of that. If deploying such projects on the cloud eventually becomes trivial, then you could imagine a FOSS desktop in the future might have a cloud component (or be entirely remotely hosted). That might sound odd, but consider you still need to buy hardware to run your FOSS on, so renting that hardware instead isn’t a great leap.
On the other hand, editing vector graphics has no intrinsic need to be hosted. Just because a cloud-based FOSS desktop in the future could be imagined doesn't make it a reasonable idea. What would be the point, other than massively increasing complexity and points of failure in terms of reliability and security?
Snarkiness aside, being able to "deploy a single version of software" is itself incompatible with the ability to self-host, making it a moot point for FOSS (let alone for FOSS that has no practical reason to be SaaS in the first place).
Sure, but another user might have another version installed. That might be because their package manager is behind the latest release, for example.
Self-hosting means it's still FOSS and you don't need them if you really want to have your own install.
SaaS deployment means it's easier to maintain for the majority who don't care.
TeXmacs has an online collaboration tool, although as far as I know it is still experimental :-)
Also, from a dev perspective having designs updates without some process is undesirable.
So were toilets once upon a time.
I am not a fan of webapps, but this line of argument doesn't hold water
—-
real-time collab is not exclusive to webapps.
Sure, but once you make the effort required to build a real time app, there are vanishingly few reasons why not to have it as a web app. Some of them provide a desktop app as well but they all provide a web app.
As a designer, you can just send a link to your design to anyone, end users, clients, developers, managers. And they just click it and it shows up and works. No need for installing software, setting up accounts, etc. A lot of these web apps are actually C++ and then compiled to web assembly so they are quite fast.
It's obviously not just "two clicks", it's "Text copy 2 final final alt reviewed.doc" and then you get a new person email their suggested updates to you as "Text copy 2 final 2.doc" and you have to somehow merge those suggestions in with the head version.
With Word at least there's the ability to do suggestions rather than direct edits to let you collaborate against nonsynced docs at all, but with Inkscape when that happens you'll literally just get a different svg and you can't actually merge at all, instead you'd need to conceptually understand what edits were made and then make them again manually to the "head" version, which is completely redundant work.
Same effort as reviewing the file history
> and then make them again manually to the "head" version Copy + PasteGit helps by forcing the deltas to be knowable, but at the expense of a complex management tool and only really working on text based source. All other modern software now solves this problem by being online collaborative which eliminates the problem entirely, and that benefit dwarfs any other feature for most corporate/organizational usecases.
Inkscape is great software, but it's not acceptable software if you're going to collaborate with multiple other people who will all be making edits to the same document.
The majority are not good employees.
Good employees can collaborate well with LaTeX as well. Yet over 99% of workplaces will not use LaTeX.
The point is that even in places where about half the employees know how to collaborate with these tools, it is not done because you need the other employees to function.
Now, many people tried Gimp (which is far from Photoshop) and they wrongly think that Inkscape is another Gimp.
I do like gimp as a bit of a Swiss army knife program, it can do a lot of utility jobs like resizing, outlining, etc which can be hard in some of the more intuitive modern apps, but most of my work now is done on an app like Procreate and then I'll move to gimp for the final edits.
There are other photo editing tools with better UI, but poorer features, sadly. It would take a ton of work to catch up in terms of features.
You might find that fact to be on the ageing side :) Unified Transform tool has been available for many years now. It's all three (and more) tools in one.
The real pivot window is before you gain traction, unfortunately.
What does your TV or car boot?
Design space ... what do you use day to day - I'd love to see your blog/show piece?
A while ago it was common for Photoshop or illustrator to be used for UI designs and then it would be thrown over the wall to you as a PNG which you had to make sure you had the latest version of. These days everywhere I have worked has used a tool like Adobe XD, Figma, Sketch, and gives out a link which is always up to date, which you can fiddle with, write comments on, etc.
The market is rapidly shifting and I'm just not sure how FOSS is going to stay relevant in this space.
It does require someone to maintain and pay for the cloud hosting. That shouldn't be unsolvable; that's not really any fundamentally different than hosting a download site for traditional FOSS. Donation-supported FOSS can work.
But I think the biggest barrier is most FOSS enthusiasts consider web apps and collaboration to be anti user malware.
1. A generic CRDT library, preferably in C or something that exposes a C interface. This is probably very hard or even impossible, depending on how much must be abstracted and how much work the developer must do to express edits in terms of the CRDT.
2. A P2P backend for said library for streaming edits.
3. A networked data store, maybe as-a-service, for versioning and persistence.
2 and 3 might even be made transparent to non-CRDT-aware applications through FUSE, but that's not a hard requirement.
It was removed because no one wanted to maintain it.
It's not impossible to imagine it being added back in though. Maybe with updated technology.
How realistic is it to expect FOSS tools to directly compete head-to-head with these incredibly well-funded privately owned tools? The whole point of these companies is to solve the "hard" problems in order to gain a functional and competitive advantage in the market. FOSS OTOH deals with table scraps in terms of funding and technical talent. And let's face it, who are some of the biggest contributors to open source? These very same companies. They're happy to help keep the specific libs that matter to them up to date, but they're certainly not going to give away the entire product for free.
> Offline desktop tools have rapidly started to become obsolete. Products like Office had to scramble to pivot because Google Docs was replacing them. Its been a while now since I have been emailed an actual office file instead of being sent a link to the live version.
Just because the market moves in a particular direction doesn't mean it's the right decision for end users, all it means is that it's the right decision for the business. Take the mobile phone manufacturers removing the headphone jack. No customers asked for that, it was purely a move to drive sales of bluetooth peripherals.
There may come a time when running software locally becomes in-vogue again, who knows? It's companies that get to dictate the platforms because they own them. And as others have pointed out, it's not like these online collab tools aren't without their own issues. I guess I just don't understand why people think that FOSS can deliver polished end-user products on the scale that companies do.
When I call for help in say Krita or Samba on the mailing lists, I often get the actual programmers responding. Not all the time but quite often.
I've been running an IT company for 22 years. I have a fair idea about what the market is up to. It turns out that a wanky LDAP n Kerberos combo will still be available next year, as it has for the last ... (when did Windows NT domains morph into AD? What a bloody nonsense)