Show HN: Fruits – Sell digital products via your website, newsletter, etc | Hacker News Reader

Show HN: Fruits – Sell digital products via your website, newsletter, etc

fruits.de

185 pointspeteconcrete148 comments

Hi HN!

Whilst trying to build an online community for content creators, we failed! Taking the learnings and stripping down our product to a true MVP, we now started working on "fruits", which allows creators to sell files such as ebooks, designs, checklists, music and online coachings online in less than two minutes.

https://fruits.de/en

It works as simple as this:

1. upload a file at "fruits" & set a price 2. you will receive your individual fruits-sales-link 3. share the link wherever your customers are (e.g. website, newsletter, social media)

In addition, we also take care of the tedious office work such as invoicing and VAT collection for you, and this is completely automated.

What do you think? We are looking forward to your feedback!

Open articleView on HN

Great idea. However, I think you need to be careful in the VAT area not to overpromise: I selected “selling from Switzerland to Switzerland” and your calculator quoted a VAT of 0%, which is of course false (selling stuff in Switzerland requires deducting 7.7% VAT).

My guess would be that you only cover VAT within the EU, but of course there are VAT regimes outside of the EU too; so “we also take care of VAT collection for you” does not seem to apply in all cases.

> selling stuff in Switzerland requires deducting 7.7% VAT

Only if you're selling more than 100k CHF per year.

I have no stake in this but, is there not a VATaaS API/library by now?

I see the VAT complications discussed all the time online and figured this would be rather centralized by now

maybe https://vatapi.com ? (actually never tested)

disclaimer: developer, not tax attorney :-)

Our connected tax office figured out taxation concerning international transactions. Why and how different taxation rules apply depends on a couple of instruments and setups such as reverse tax charges, MOSS and others.

It basically burns down to fruits:

- charging the buyer with the applicable tax between fruits (company in Germany) and the buyer in country XYZ

- each buyer receiving an invoice (issued by fruits)

- the seller receiving a single credit note for all sales within that month targeting a German company (fruits)

We will have to clarify taxation as I can see from comments in this thread - thanks for your input!

VATMOSS would seem to be the way to go, note that you may not have visibility on all of the transactions of a party so you won't be able to determine when they cross the limit for VAT liability for their country.

Immediate feedback on your simple ‘step 1 - 2 - 3’ explanation…

It’s great to reduce the steps down to so few, but I feel like you’re missing an explanation of the follow up steps where a customer pays for a thing, and the money gets to me.

Hi there, Helen here from the fruits Team - I am always keen to improve the user experience and to provide smart content, super grateful for your input! We're already working on a step by step guide + video - coming soon :-) !

Congrats on your launch! But honestly, your site gives me some huge red flags regarding your service:

You don't have a legally valid "Impressum" on fruits.de: It points to fanbase.com and that one isn't even mentioning fruits.de. So, as a German startup, it seems you're at least bending German and EU law by not providing the information necessary for proving services on the domain fruits.de. And as a result, as a potential user, I can't trust you with my business.

Moreover, I couldn't find information about your "sales tax" claim. You know better than me that selling digital products in the EU and across borders can be kind of tricky, depending on what you are selling (e.g. ebook vs software), if you're selling B2B or B2C, and depending on the origin of your customer. As a user, I'd need much more information about how you handle this and the bookkeeping you mentioned, but it somehow looks like you're relying on PayPal as the payment gateway and are not handling sales tax / USt by yourself?

And no: As someone looking for a simple solution to sell my digital products, I don't want do book a consultation for answers to the questions above.

Hi, dev here, thanks for the input!

Fruits is a pivot for fanbase.com which sadly didn't make it. Within a few days, we managed to build fruits and launched it as the quickest MVP we could come up with. That's what you're seeing today. The imprint still points towards the current legal entity (fanbase GmbH). A new legal entity is currently under registration by the founders. Once the paperwork is done, the founders will move all assets to the new company and align the imprint accordingly.

Concerning taxation: this seems to be a clear improvement we need to work on communicating. Taxation is hard and we tried to break it down in a pricing calculator (which does not yet seem to do all that good of a job, point taken).

Disclaimer - as mentioned below/above in some of the comments: not the tax attorney ;-)

We are working with a tax office that helped us figuring out international taxation and will be able to answer all legal taxation questions in detail for each single country we're in business with.

Taxation for fruits essentially means:

- fruits charges the buyer and applies tax applicable for fruits (company in Germany) and the buyer in country XYZ

- each buyer will receive an invoice (issued by fruits)

- the seller will receive a single credit note for all sales performed within a month targeting a German company (fruits)

[Buyer] <<- Invoice (Tax) --- [fruits] <<- Credit note ->> [Seller]

As someone who builds multiple products in this space, make sure you check if a credit note is valid for your purpose. It's not in NL, and it would get you in trouble with the tax authority. The proper solution is a self-billed invoice (though perhaps you're using that and just calling it a credit note!)

> Once the paperwork is done, the founders will move all assets to the new company and align the imprint accordingly.

Make sure that you deal with IP rights very carefully in that situation.

Also, the GP is right, you do need that impressum page.

I’ve used this before with good success on a few projects

https://www.taxjar.com/product/api

After a quick browse of the Tax Jar website I got the solid impression that they were US only. I saw mention of 'sales tax' but nothing about VAT, GST, HST, etc. No mention of international or shipping. And their pricing page which I normally find to be useful for this type of thing was actually totally confusing to me.

The one thing on the pricing page that jumped out at me was, "AI-driven product taxability recommendations"

AI recommendations and dealing with the tax authorities doesn't really seem like a sound choice.

This kind of bureaucracy is why our business is registered out of Germany, haha.

Edit: I’m not vouching for anyone not following the law. But I do think the rules are much easier to understand and follow in other EU countries.

I am working on a SaaS product with a friend that will be mostly a B2B (although it can work as B2C too) and besides all the tech, what I am afraid mostly is all the tax/money/stuff.

I am not from Europe neither USA - I'd like only to get paid monthly for the service I provide. Is it difficult? If anyone can give some advice I'd be grateful.

> what I am afraid mostly is all the tax/money/stuff.'

At fruits, we are automatically handling all the taxes & invoicing for you - internationally & correctly, so you don't have to be afraid of making illegal billing mistakes. It's all handled for you, you and your customers automatically receive an automated invoice / billing overview. :-)

It really boils down to the country.IMHO, German tax system is madly complicated but Estonian is super simple, for example.

> what I am afraid mostly is all the tax/money/stuff

You shouldn't be afraid, you should pay a professional CPA and/or tax accountant to take care of all of that stuff for you.

You wouldn't draft your own legal documents (I hope), correct? It's no different on the money side of things.

At that point it almost doesn't matter if they draft them themselves as they won't have the energy/money to chase some vendor/partner etc legally as a day 0 startup.

I pay my taxes locally. The issue is what happens for the other companies in other countries, do they need something special?

take a look at getrevin.com - basically an MoR (taxes,filing etc) but you can use Stripe - and they can serve you in countries that Stripe can't.

You could look into a UAE freezone.

You sound like a user that expects the world for your $20/month business. These red flags could be corrected in a day.

I think they sound like a user who expects the service to follow German and EU rules and regulations when on a German domain, which sounds not like the world but common sense.

Also "for your $20 month business"? I mean I guess he expects it for everyone's $20 month business.

This thread (and it being upvoted to the top) is a prime example of why there isn't any Big Tech in EU - because we slam down even fun little startups with this legalese bullshit as soon as they appear.

"legalese bullshit" - you sell a product, you need to handle VAT. Every single business in the EU abides by this, why should a business be exempt just because they're on the internet?

US businesses - afaik - are not required to collect sales tax out of state below a threshold of 100k per year per state. So yeah, the parent comment is valid. A bit of pro-new-business flexibility wouldn't hurt in Europe.

That's not true, there's a rather large minimum until you need to think about VAT. 100k EUR/year where I live.

Not since last year

https://vat-one-stop-shop.ec.europa.eu/index_en

Lol, "simpler and fairer world"? I want some of what these people are smoking.

I'm a VAT payer and it's at minimum 15-20 incredibly complicated accounting forms per year, with harsh penalties for mistakes and missed deadlines. I would never be able to start doing business if I had to do this at the beginning, and I'm in the most lucrative market today - and I would never risk it too, the fines are damn huge.

Doing the forms costs me thousands of euro yearly even though my accounting is totally simple, I have just few invoices per month with just few line items.

As I said, this is why this place is failing business-wise.

I'm in Denmark, which I would not have expected to be the simplest place for taxes, but evidently it must be because I don't have any of these problems you do with VAT, although I only invoice one time per month it's true so maybe that is the difference.

Can you tell me about other countries requiring an impressum? .. I think Switzerland..?

The 24 Unicorns in Germany https://www.failory.com/startups/germany-unicorns

The 20 in 8 times smaller Israel:

https://www.failory.com/startups/israel-unicorns

Yeah lol, 24? With the size of German economy it should be 240 or 2400, definitely not 24. (if it was irony then I'm sorry I didn't recognize it)

you're correct 240 if you say well the American economy is 10 times the size of the German (it's a little over 12 I think) but I wonder if we might see that the rate of German unicorns is growing at about the level it should be in recent years, that is to say the disparity in number of Unicorns is more Germany starting late than anything else.

Aside from that of course the EU has made it relatively clear it does not really want unicorns like Twitter or Facebook. So I mean if you take away PII violating companies from the mix then things might look more equal also - but perhaps that is more of that pesky legalese bullshit you seem to find onerous.

US GDP is between 6 and 8 times Germany .. so should be like around 80-60 unicorns

But then .. you have Israel who has a 10 times smaller economy per GDP size and still managed 17 unicorns ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

yours is probably more accurate than mine, I saw a 2019 estimate said 2 point something trillion and then U.S 24 point something trillion, but I didn't look really close.

hmm, yeah maybe it doesn't matter so much the GDP size - does Israel have a lot of legalese bullshit?

on edit: changed petty regulations to legalese bullshit. Couldn't remember the exact phrase this far down.

It's very funny to speak about privacy while the EU is pushing literal Chat Control at the same time.

I'd much rather have Big Tech and the money it brings home - nobody is forced to use their free services, I'm simply avoiding them - than have Chat Control forced down my throat unless I move to the Land of Free PII Violations.

all i can hear is "if only the whole world was as unregulated as the US"-mimimi

The US is plenty regulated. It's why VCs have to spend absurd sums on lawyers for Uber and Airbnb. Sidestepping laws and regulations isn't cheap.

EU is so backwards with bureaucracy it is actually easier to set up a US entity for a new startup and hire EU devs in it than set up in an EU country and navigate the tax laws of 28 countries.

He sounds like someone who knows what they're looking for and is diligently inspecting the service before spending money on it. It doesn't matter how insignificant the amount of money is, it's important to be clear on what you are actually buying and if it's actually legit.

My immediate thought is that people will use this to sell pirated and/or illegal goods. I’m curious how you plan to address this issue?

Probably the same as any other online service; wait for DMCA takedown requests, prepare for lawsuits and be prepared to pay copyright holders or hand over gains to law enforcement.

Of course, that could be prevented if they manually check and verify ownership of every submission.

What about illegal content like CSAM? That would be far more serious than just a DMCA, personally content like that would be my first concern running this type of business.

Yea hope they have good monitoring in place

Congrats for shipping! I love the simplicity of the idea. It reminds me a lot to Drop to sell[0]. At first glance, both cover the same use case, or is there any significant difference?

[0] https://www.droptosell.com/

Thank you very much! The service was actually not yet known to us. But it also looks very exciting.

We will handle the intl. taxation for sellers and hand out invoices to the buyers. With us you also don't have the hassle of creating your own Stripe account, API key etc etc. We learned the required expertise to set up multiple accounts when trying to sell a file was a huge pain point for creators.

I like the idea, but I would expect your PayPal business account to get banned pretty quickly without a more rigorous sign up process to prevent illegal content from being sold.

Happy to see a startup from Germany here, way to go folks! Also I wasn't aware you can now add a description and post a link to an external website here, that's quite helpful.

Thank you! Greetings from Bavaria. :)

Congrats withdrawn, not from Germany.

I kid, I kid! ;)

Context for all non-Germans: Many "northern" Germans joke about Bavaria not being part of Germany. Another often made "joke" is that Bavaria starts ~50km south of were one lives.

AFAIK a "Show HN"-only feature.

A lot of feedback here mentions tax compliance. Perhaps you could use a company like paddle.com to actually handle the payments and act as a merchant of record for each transaction. This way you wouldn't need to worry about calculating taxes and collecting payments from the end customers, you would still need to handle distributing income to sellers. I'm not sure though if Paddle supports selling such 'umbrella' type of products.

Anyway, the idea is great, I view Paddle as an order of magnitude less work for the seller compared to lower level services such as Stripe, and your service could be an order of magnitude less work than Paddle for products that fit such simple selling model well.

Thanks for your suggestion. That looks interesting! We'll take a closer look at paddle.

It looks like you're avoiding answering the question related to follow up steps where a customer pays for a thing, and the money gets to me.

Could you show an example of how it will look like

https://fruits.de/c/v9kgq ;)

looks good Peter. Take a look at getrevin.com if you are interested in using stripe but having the tax compliance taken off your hands

+1 on this, looks good would appreciate a live/mock example

That would be the view for selling a digital file https://fruits.de/c/85nn9

Is €0.49 for bookkeeping a competitive price? For a €1.99 product, that's more than the paypal fees at €0.40.

Apart from bookkeeping in their own system, paypal also has to handle fraud and regulatory obligations. How can they be cheaper?

Hi, we do have a bookkeeping fee which is the fee we forward 1/1 from the accounting company currently connected. This allows us to handle payments in the sub- $10 area by not having losses whilst handling payments. We might consider removing the fee in the future once we see sales in the lower $10 area are not really relevant.

The way you structure the fees is very reasonable. I am just surprised that the fees are that high. Instead of waving the fees you could try to bring them down. As long as there is no manual involvement, why should bookkeeping cost more than a cent?

Why would you want to log every transaction with an external accountant?

This increases the cost of your service and adds absolutely nothing of value to the customer.

That's due to rules and regulations here in Germany. We need to have our outgoing and incoming invoices being handled properly to not run into tax fraud issues.

By talking to creators from e.g. OnlyFans, the biggest issues they faced was explaining their earnings to the tax authorities with no proper invoices at hand.

By further automating those tasks, we will be able to reduce costs dramatically and might get rid of the bookkeeping fee alltogether.

Maybe you want to just include it in the fee itself. It feels silly to have a separate fee when you advertise with 7%. At the very least it’s 7%+0.49. It’s not my problem that you have to hire an external accountant, and not something that I think is relevant for your customers.

Congrats on the launch!

But IMO payment service and the term "Sidehustler" (in About us part) don't fit well together... ;)

It sends you a code that expires and there's no way to request another.

In general - please let codes last at least an hour or so. I always get distracted waiting for the code and have to request another one - often several times. Unless you can guarantee instant code delivery (which you probably can't) then I am going to go off and do something else and I probably will forget to check for a while.

Why not give the user a login then they can access their content indefinitely?

Time limited codes fucking suck.

Point taken. Thanks - will look into it!

How will taxes be handled?

I am in Europe. That means every time I sell something, I need to charge taxes depending on the country of the buyer. And once a year, I have to make a report for the tax authorities with all the revenues I made with all the countries.

Does fruits abstract that away somehow?

This!

fruits will:

- charge the buyer with the applicable tax between fruits (company in Germany) and the buyer in Country XYZ

- each buyer will receive an invoice (issued by fruits)

- the seller will receive a single credit note for all sales within that month targeting a German company (fruits)

As I can see from the comments (above and below), we need to come up with a way explaining intl taxation more thoroughly.

Disclaimer: I am the developer and not the tax attourney. In case you do have any questions, feel free to contact us (or me) and we will set up a meeting with our Tax-Daniela which will be able to explain taxation-related tasks in detail with a proper legal background :-)

How does this differ from Gumroad?

Unlike Gumroad, our goal is not to offer sales pages for digital products - at least not initially.

We found out creators don't necessarily need a complicated landing page when selling content through e.g. tiktok or instagram or a newsletter that already provides trust. In addition, we will also process and handle invoices and credit notes

There are hundreds of successful CRM SaaS companies out there.

Same for email marketing. I think there is room for tons of creator sales platforms without asking "How does this differ from Mailchimp?"

I think the #1 "product design" problem for these tools is customer trust with a brand you've never seen before.

I find Gumroad a little jarring instead of being in the background. Gumroad has been around long enough that it is now a brand that someone might have interacted with more than once through different creators, but I think that is a secondary use case.

What is the "bookkeeping" fee in the price calculator for? https://fruits.de/en/payment/price-calculator

Typically when someone says "accounting" or "bookkeeping", they don't mean payment processing. Accounting and bookkeeping typically refers to tracking payments, invoices, credits, and debits, not actually taking payment. This could be an English <-> German thing.

I'd also say that the norm in this space is that your 7% fee should cover this (and if it doesn't, whatever fee you do set should cover it). Saying you charge a 7% fee when actually you mean 7% + some amount is sort of shady.

I would consider hiring a professional English copywriter, generally, as the language page reads as ESL. ("digital contents", "where ever", missing comma after "fruits", generally prefer oxford commas, "where ever [sic] you want to super fast" oddly informal, "receive a link that leads customers to your product", "place your fruits link wherever your customers are", "content formats", redundant "files and content formats of all kinds", "where your customers are already", "every channel, really every one!", missing period at end of secure payment bullet point, missing period at end of automatic billing bullet point, "any open questions", "set itself the task", about us list also missing an oxford comma, "anyone who wants it", "for this purpose")

Very good points. Your feedback shows that we still have some things to adjust! We will take care of it as soon as possible.

Can anyone in Germany use this as an individual? For example, I have an office job. If I write a song/comic book, can I just start using this platform or do I need to do some tax nonsense/form a company?

Sure thing, every kind of business is welcome, also sidehustlers/ individual business activities. You can simply note that down when you are filling in your billing / VAT information. We can't wait to see you selling soon :-)

That’s up to your country, not to the company handling the payments.

Edit: Never mind, didn’t realize they called this out as something they handle.

It made me really sad not to see the developers' avatars on the "About us" section. It seems they are not part of the team, but they're the ones answering questions here.

Other than that, great product!

"Digital nomad", "sidehustler" or "freelancer" aren't actual jobs. What do these people even do? The actual developers are listed in the footer.

Lol, that was what I noticed first. All those employees but the people who actually built the site aren't even listed as team members.

Thank you for voicing your concern - the team section is just being built. We are super grateful and appreciative for our hard working team, which includes being understanding as not everyone wants to show their face online. We'll hopefully be showing more faces soon :-) .

How do you deal with KYC / Money laundering practices?

Congrats on the MVP. I got a test of your service up and running very quickly and smoothly. The biggest feature request for me would be simple custom branding to make the user journey look good when connecting from my website. I'm less concerned about the tax situation, I see that as my/the users problem and not yours.

Noted :-) great feedback, thank you! The customization features is well on its way and we hope to have it live for you within the next two weeks!

Looks good but upon clicking I thought for over 5 seconds that this was a sideproduct of WeTransfer - at least styling-wise. Serif font for titles, big blue plus sign, split screen of colorful graphic and the info.

Also curious about the name. "Fruits" domains seem to be worth quite a bit. May sound harsh but change the name and sell the costly domain for something that is more explanatory?

Thank you for your input - feeling flattered for the WeTransfer comparison ;-) definitely a key player we look up to, however our roadmap will differ quite a bit, looking at micro landing pages etc.

As for fruits - "fruitful work" , harvest the fruits of your hard labour.

You might want to fix the fact that you can specify a negative price for the product, at least in the calculator. Other than that, looks cool!

Good catch, thanks!

Nice!

Can I use it to sell software registration codes that are generated by an API I run from my server?

After a user clicks to purchase my item, Fruits would call my API with a preconfigured shared secret, the API responds with a unique code, then Fruits gives this to the buyer. Can it do that?

I made a little test file & purchase - how do I actually get paid?

First impressions are that it seems very expensive for smaller purchases - my $2.00 turned into $0.56 (and then I'll have currency fees as GBP wasn't an option).

Hi there! With the upload of your first file (congrats!) you should have received an email summarizing the file infos as well as a link that leads you to your fruits account, asking you to fill in your payout info. :-)

As for smaller purchases, it is probably best to go for quantity - you can also use our price calculator, to see how you should price your product to receive amount x in the end. Also definitely noting down that GBP should be an option.

Thank you for your input :-)

Congratiolations!

1. How do you handle inner EU-vat free excemption (validation of tax numbers)?

2. How easy or hard was your KYC-integration? As payment processor in Germany I assume you are required for money laundering checks, or?

Thank you :-) !

Before a creator's first payout we are conducting a KYC process: checking the plausibility of the address, verifying the existence of the company, a valid & correct VAT ID, etc.

In addition, products undergo a check once they are generating sales and of course there is a reporting possibility to hello@fruits.de .

congratulations on the launch! how does this compare to Gumroad?

Unlike Gumroad, our goal is not to offer sales pages for digital products - at least not initially.

Yes, the same was true for me. I literally only want to accept payments, the sales page and the fulfilment is already done externally, so I really just need a payment form that sends me a callback.

Stripe does this, but going through their whole KYC process has become extremely arduous (and they seem incapable of being clear about what they need/want, as well as understanding that Dutch people with a Dutch company sometimes do not reside on the Netherlands).

Any plans to make the download/payment page more customizable e.g. formatting/images in the description, or giving sellers control over the background?

Hi, one of the devs here - happy to answer any questions :-)

We're currently working exactly on that feature - been requested a few times yet. To keep the product as simple as possible for the MVP, we stripped all initial features and will add them step by step in the coming days.

Sounds like a good idea. The "advertising" can be done in so many other ways on other platforms - I like that you only try to do one thing and do that well.

Thanks <3

Does licensing relate to what Fruits currently offers, or will offer eventually? Or is licensing a separate responsibility and decision for the creator?

Hi there :-) for now, licensing is the creator's / seller's responsibility.

I love the simplicity.

How are things like fraud and chargebacks handled? With collecting money being this easy, I immediately worry about how it would be abused.

Any precautions against money laundering and fraud?

The create page is nice but the first thing I always look for is a demo. Stripe always provides these on their pages.

Thanks <3 we'll be shortly providing you with a demo / tutorial video as well as an animated run-through of the product. Good points!

I can't click none of the links in the footer of your slide menu, such as Imprint (Firefox and Edge testet)..

Thanks for pointing this out - the fixes are underway!

The links in your sidebar don't work, I can't see any info about your company.

Thanks for pointing this one out - already forwarded your feedback, the correct linking will be live in no time.

Why did you decide on .de domain? I think more global domain would be better.

Cool to see a München based startup popup here! Nice going neighbour :)

Oh, how I hoped I read that "... sell digital produce" :(

this is awesome. how is it different from paddle.com or getrevin.com? it looks like a merchant of record :)

People are 100% going to sell drugs with this.

I am curious about the name and the de domaim

We first launched the service in Germany last week. The domain is not final yet. International domain will follow soon.

Just a note on the name from someone in the UK.

"fruits" is a slang term for testicles, as in "she kicked him right in his fucking fruits!".

I doubt it's the first thing folk would think of with "fruits", but thought it worth mentioning.

Naming is hard :/

As in "fruits of one's labor"? That's how I took it.

That was definitely the intention. ;)

"Blessed are the fruit".

seems cool, but work on your trust signals to the users, why should they trust you?

Great input, the seal for secure payment etc. will be live shortly.

If you are selling digital goods why put yourself within Germany? Do it from Gibraltar or Luxembourg.

Love this!

As a creator of digital products: great site, congrats!

As a consumer: PayPal only? I’m outta here. I don’t like my money randomly frozen on a whim.

Are you folks planning to offer Giropay for the consumer side? That’s pretty much the only payment service I can use nowadays.

Or CreditCard, or iDeal, or AliPay, or crypto, or... or... or...

Of the vast amount of payment options available online, only a handful is used by people in a geographic area. Dutch people have a very strong preference for iDeal, for example, and rarely purchase things with credit cards, while Chinese customers heavily lean on AliPay.

That's why you use a payment processor like Adyen or Mollie, who handles all these geographic differences for you.

Thank you for the feedback. The Paypal integration was now for the MVP our first payment function. On the one hand because Paypal is the most important payment option in Germany and on the other hand because you can already pay via credit card with Paypal. However, we are working at full speed on the integration of other payment options. From purchase on account to topics like Giropay etc. and Crypto. Please give us a little more time. :)

Thanks, sounds promising. Good luck with your plans!

PayPal allows paying with a credit card without needing to create an account.

If the OP doesn't have this, there's literally a checkbox for this in the merchant's settings on the PayPal's admin panel. The drawback however is an elevated risk of fraud.

Edit: ... and they don't have this enabled - https://fruits.de/c/v9kgq

Content creator payouts are also paid through PayPal, so unless there's another feature I'm not aware of, it seems PayPal will get the opportunity to freeze the money either way.

... bank transfers is one of the feature requests already in our pipeline!

Due to limited time (fruits was built within a few days), we reduced the product to the most simple MVP we could come up with. We will now be adding features on a daily basis :-)

And that's just a random boogeyman.

In a capitalist economy, your ability to boycott a company is your only defence against that company.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com