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Comment by pflenker | Hacker News Reader

A big fallacy that I always see - and that is implied by this post - is that the work ends after shipping, a.k.a. "build it and they will come". That doesn't happen any more. So after you "ship" it, you need to promote it, advertise it, create buzz around it and make people use it. And that is a totally different kind of beast than coding something.

But on the flip side, if you develop a side project just for yourself, you most certainly learn something. Heck, the author explicitly mentioned learning React Native, which is absolutely great and definitely worth investing time into.

Learning things is valuable in itself.

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> "build it and they will come"

I also used to think that build it and they will come was a big fallacy, but it's not really. The fallacy is, "build it and the whole world will fight to get what you built". That sure won't happen by itself or by chance.

But if you build something reasonably good, some people will come. That may not be enough for you to make a living out of it, but it will make it worthwhile.

> Learning things is valuable in itself.

From the same author:

> Open source, writing blog posts, and playing with tweaking lint settings and editor themes all day are completely fine until your landlord knocks on your door or you're at the checkout at the grocery store. You're doing a crazy 2-hour commute every day telling yourself "well at least I'm learning a lot about SVG". Fuck that.

https://kitze.io/posts/github-stars-wont-pay-your-rent

(I am actually, currently learning a lot about SVG and love it; but the quote is right that it's not paying the rent.)

Learning helps you pay your rent in the long run though, as it lifts your overall qualification level.

That can decay to ~zero from a career-agency standpoint though if it's not the limiting reagent for professional access to the next level—that is, if the assignments you can get next all include the same thing at the same speed regardless of whether you also learn it independently or not.

One thing I've found to not be fallacious is "if you don't want them to come, they will come". With open source this is so true. My projects that I don't want to actively maintain anymore are always the ones that generate lots of issues and pull requests and stars, versus the ones I actually use on a daily basis that no one but me cares about.

Serious question, how do you know whether it's your product or your marketing that sucks?

For example, I tried twitter ads for my product [1] and I got zero sales after spending $50.

What are good marketing strategies for niche hardware products?

[1] https://www.invisible-computers.com/

Looks like it's sold out, which is a pity, I enjoy the design. You have a typo on the front page, 'eletronig' for 'electronic'.

I fixed the typo, thank you!

You can leave your email to be notified when it's back in stock.

[1] looks like a hastily prepared landing page for a dropshipped AliExpress product. 1 photo, no video. Why only Google Calendar? How to 'use your phone to connect'? Is there a companion app? Why is contact page under Policies and labelled Imprint? Why 2 Privacy Policy links? About us section reads like boilerplate scam and links off-site to some random blog. Line height config looks ugly in bottom nav area.

At least it works without Javascript.

Hi, thank you for having a go over it! This is great feedback.

I find it really, really hard to take good pictures and even harder to take video. I am getting help with that and I hope the situation will improve.

yes, there is a companion app, should I make that more clear?

The contact page is labelled imprint because that's the law here in Germany... I could have an additional contact page though.

The two privacy policies are because one is for visitors of the website and one is for users of my product. Two totally different contexts, and I was unsure how to fuse them. Probably also something I should get help with.

I cut down on the about us section. But I agree this needs some work still...

Looking better already!

On clickthru Shopify page, there are some decent photos. But would replace/remove the Amazon text in one of them.

Also would show the back / cord & connector.

Yes, would have apps page with direct links to store.

Re: contact page. Is this actually true? This page for example still says contact when viewing Germany version of page. https://teenage.engineering/contact

Re: privacy: you could have one link, with some way to show both once you get to that page. Few will read this anyway, may as well not clutter home page with 2 links.

Good luck my friend.

Thank you

> Re: contact page. Is this actually true? This page for example still says contact when viewing Germany version of page.

That is a Swedish site and as a foreign organisation, they are exempt from the Imprint requirement in Germany.

Imprint is generally something that should be present on a german website, though it isn't really enforced. You could get sued though if you don't have it.

That's precisely the thing i am going to be looking for soon. Yours looks pretty good, but i find the product page to be a bit lacking in detail and polish ( including typos like "come with wooden stand" instead of "comes"), which can be off-putting.

If your business wraps up does this turn into a pretty brick?

My instant wonder and would be a deal breaker until I found out if the device pulls from the calendar directly or via a proxy you run if it helps any

Going by the language in the privacy policy it’s the proxy method. I’d have to pass, personally. Looks great but I got no use for it if you shut down

Also it’s “sold out” so I assume it doesn’t and won’t exist until you get enough interest. For me this is more an impulse buy, give me a week thinking about it and I’d forget about it completely (then 2 years later I get an email “xyzzy is complete and shipping now!” with no reminder of what it is)

It’s pretty cheap to keep the API running and I promised myself I’d be doing that for many years even if I make 0 money with it.

But I want to be upfront about the fact that there are things beyond my control that might force me to shut down some or all functionality. For example, if google shuts down access to the calendar API, the calendar feature will be in trouble.

I’ll buy one. Agree with the comments that you need to put a little time in to describe this thing in a lot more detail!

That said, I would love to have my calendar always just sitting there on my desk. This is the perfect item for anyone with adhd or similar. I would target that niche.

I’ve heard that before from another customer, that it’s a good product for ADHD.

Twitter ads are widely seen as ineffective versus other advertising channels (to verify for yourself, you can check r/PPC, r/marketing, and other subreddits via a site:reddit.com Google search). Results are likely lower due to poorer analytics, which translates to your ads not appearing to the most relevant people.

Google Search Ads and Facebook/Instagram ads are seen as more effective in comparison (results are likely higher as Facebook/Meta are relatively better at analytics, so advertisements appear to more relevant people).

In addition, $50 is not a lot to spend on an ad campaign. It generally takes a higher number of advertisement views by the same person (preferably across different websites and channels) to produce an intended result.

Let's say you are a guy in a basement spending your own money. What is the minimum spend that you see for advertising to be at all effective?

It depends on what you’re selling, but roughly $500 per month is seen as solid on the r/PPC forum (that is, no major objections when brought up), with $100 a month as not outrageous (especially as a starting point). My assumption is that the forum is credible and not astroturfed (which seems fairly reasonable from intuition).

I wish there were a scientific study to lean on as a more credible source. I personally don’t have direct experience for budgets smaller than $1,000 a month, back when I did work with some non-profits.

Roughly $100 a month sounds plausibly viable at the lowest uncomfortable end with skill, but you also need that skill in graphic design to make an effective ad, persuasive writing, and a good idea of how to target the right audience. That perspective also costs time to learn from books and/or money if outsourced.

You might be able to get some customers with that spend on average, but could have hit zero just from bad luck (randomness is clumpy). Customers can easily cost tens of dollars to acquire.

As an example, for my own subscription box service the cost to acquire a customer from YouTube ads was ~$49.

Do you have any plans to bring Japan candy back to life?

Rad product! Can I feed it arbitrary images/html/something?

Yes, arbitrary images, you just have to specify the image url.

Here are the instructions, so you can see how it works: https://www.invisible-computers.com/invisible-calendar/image...

Yeah, your website sucks. The product looks really nice, but the landing page barely even feels like it wants me to check it out. I can barely even tell it’s a landing page.

I was actually thinking about exactly this product earlier this week. I have kids and their schedule is really complicated these days - some days some of them need packed lunches, uniform is different on PE days etc etc. I want to walk into the kitchen and have the details for the day right there. There’s a real use for the product, you need to work on the landing page (I’d suggest considering starting again with a template)

Puh, I tried so hard with that website. I don't know, design and marketing is just sooo hard for me.

Do you have a template that you think I should use?

And do you know maybe somebody who could help me build a better landing page without costing me all my life savings?

Make a website with an online builder and use their templates. For example:

- Webflow: https://webflow.com/templates

- SquareSpace: https://www.squarespace.com/templates

- Shopify: https://themes.shopify.com/

I'd recommend Shopify, and a minimalist, light theme such as the one below, since your product is made of light wood.

https://themes.shopify.com/themes/craft/styles/default?surfa...

I already use shopify for the shop page, https://shop.invisible-computers.com/products/invisible-cale...

But I’ve been wary of using it for the whole website since I didn’t want my whole page structure and content coupled to shopify.

And I didn’t want it all to feel like a shopify store.

But maybe that was a bad priority and I should just get over it.

Thanks for the tip with the theme, btw

Yeah, at risk of sounding brash, I do think you should "get over it" as your main priority is to sell items, not to build a well-structured website in HTML. The latter is ancillary, merely a means to an end.

Sorry, didn’t want to poo poo the whole thing. Don’t get down about it! This is an opportunity to rework the site so it works for you.

As sibling comment says, use a website builder instead. Something like shopify will have everything you need (though I’m not massively familiar with it myself).

Another suggestion I have is to focus on the target audience. I skimmed the doc you linked to about uploading images (couldn’t find any extra docs on the site at a glance btw) and it felt geek heavy in terminology.

The shots of the device look nice, but there’s an app for managing it? Is it easy to use? If I buy this device would my wife ever use it or is it too complicated?

Are you actually making these devices yourself? If I were hand making these my starting point would be to sell to friends so I could iterate on the whole thing. There are a lot of people on here talking about ads and marketing but honestly, hustle is how you get started.

Nono, I am very grateful for your feedback! If my website is bad it means that it can be improved and then my conversions will go app and that's great news!

I don't define myself by my design skills so you didn't hurt any feelings :D

I am a bit wary of using Shopify for landing pages because I'm worried it will make it feel even more like a dropshipping enterprise...

But maybe that's the smaller problem if at least my website looks good then!

'Yeah, your website sucks.'

I was expecting some geocities crap. From what I see, the landing page is clear, concise and shows me the relevant info I'm looking for.

Piling on for some feedback here. This isnt a product that people need. Everyone already has access to a calendar on their phone, on paper, on a whiteboard, whatever.

So it has to be something people want. And it doesnt look cool/sleek/exciting enough for people to want it. The bezel is huge, its black and white, and looks overpriced.

Some marketing angles work, but your product has to honestly support them. Ex:

- hackable. Need to show off connection interface, API, some cool project examples. As far as I can tell, LEDs never hurt here.

- sophisticated/elegant.

- useful. Seems easier to use /better than what people are already doing.

- cool. Buys access to a group of exciting people you wouldn't get to meet otherwise.

But the absolute best way to market a hardware product is to stop making it about tech. My dad bought a digital picture frame a while back as a gift. Thats a way easier bar to clear, its emotional, sentimental, symbolic, so the technical execution doesnt need to be as flawless.

Hey, this is kind of cool! If only it supported caldav I might get one.

It's not clear who your product is for. "Everyone" is the wrong answer, BTW. If you try to make everyone happy, you usually end up making no one happy. It's super important to focus on actual user problems.

1. Is this solving a pain point the user has already?

2. Do they currently have some less-than-great solution in place?

3. Are they willing to pay for something which will solve their problem?

Looking at your product, I see a possible market, but it might need to be tuned (UX and/or marketing) to be successful.

A relative of mine needs 24/7 in-home care. There are a number of people involved and a decent number of Dr appointments etc to coordinate. The people involved with elder care are super low tech, but in her case, a shared visible calendar could be useful.

In general, the products for seniors and/or people with dementia or other disabilities tend to have horrible design and still aren't really suited to physical/cognitive challenges of the users and their caregivers. It's a niche, but one that could use a lot of developments.

Hi s1mon, thanks for your feedback.

I'd say I have two customer groups in mind:

1. Technologically open-minded people who have a bit of money and want an e-paper calendar in their office or for their family. They can buy my e paper screen and set it up with the mobile app in 2 minutes.

2. Developers who want to build their own e-paper application and need a platform to build it on. They can buy my device and use the image-url feature to display their own designs.

I don't think the landing page is bad. Product seems cool. I don't agree with the people talking about extra features. The main issue I feel is that this is something only people with quite a bit of money and leisure can afford (because it's not solving a direct problem, it's just for convenience). So you need something on the page that will unconsciously persuade these people that it's cool. It's an upmarket product but the website doesn't advertise it as such.

Rather than doing online ads I think a promo vid with a progressive looking family / hipsters would be more effective. ;)

'So I deployed it on Vercel, bought a domain name and posted it on the brand twitter account we created a few days ago. Why am I not getting users?'

I completely agree. A couple months ago I received the same "Ship It" advice on a HN Comment.

I did, but no one came. Marketing feels like an orthogonal skill but can not be overstated enough.

I think it was the book called Blitzscaling that talked about the fact that some kind of "unfair advantage" with regards to access to market should be built in to your product. They mentioned LinkedIn and their "import address book" feature

I saw one startup whose "launch" was a splash page with a logo, description of an imaginary product they hadn't built yet and a Hubspot signup form that you sign up for news. These guys had it right. Get customer insight while you build features. In fact, they were building something that has been solved since before the computer was invented, they were just going to have a splashy brand.

I also think they didn't learn one important lesson (maybe). MVP's don't need bells and whistles. Stop adding that "one last thing". It's a Minimum Viable Product. It should be lean, and somewhat polished. Add features later.

I think like others have said, it does depend on whether you are targetting the mass market or a smaller (and hopefully more lucrative) niche.

Plenty of companies don't do what you say and still become successful.

However, for a pure software solution with little market expertise, I suspect what you are saying is correct because the barrier is so low. If you can "build an app" in a weekend, so can 1000s of other people.

They "can" but will they?

If it prints money and can be made in a weekend then of course. However, the more niche it is to an audience or knowledge needed beforehand (i.e. simple music generator) it would no longer be a weekend project.

this is with regards to GP

GP asked 'They "can" but will they?'

No, they won't

in reality most people won't do it because they don't know whether it will print money

your comment "If it prints money" doesn't apply in reality and it comes off as if you won this argument to HN readers, which in fact no

The biggest fallacy in my experience is that the thing you built isn't done at ship because your first build is only what you thought of to build. Your users might need some of what you built, but the feature requests will quickly show you that you only thought a fraction of the possible things a user would want.

You're so wrong. I built it and they came. And when I say they, I mean millions of users. Here's my blog post about it: https://catonmat.net/if-you-build-it-they-will-come

Congratulations! Though in claiming that since it worked in your case, it will work in the majority of cases you commit the anecdotal evidence fallacy.

aka Survivorship bias.

Aka the best type of bias.

It's certainly the best bias to suffer from as it means your project succeeded. It does mean people should take your advice with a grain of salt.

Thanks! I love the anecdotal evidence fallacy. It's my favorite fallacy.

Yes, Given they couldn't develop the app without planning the release, I wonder if they'd have time to properly support it if they shipped..

most importantly you also need to continue developing it

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