Hacker News Reader

yes, you will be able to own that coffee shop, but you won't want to. being their landlord is a better way to go.

also, i don't think software is viewed as a "high-prestige" profession.

also, i don't think software is viewed as a "high-prestige" profession.

It really depends on where in the world you are.

i don't know about other countries, but being a software developer is not high-status anywhere in the united states.

i lived many years in sf and mountain view. even there, being a "product manager" is higher status than "software developer" or "engineer".

Higher status, but often paid less.

Sometimes, not often.

It is considered quite high prestige in Israel (as does working in high-tech/engineering in general).

Writing letters isn't high-prestige either, which is why lawyers don't describe their job as writing letters all day. Learn from their example.

I've been thinking about this. Saying "I'm a software developer" just doesn't communicate what I do, even though programming is... well, what I do. Thanks for reframing the problem succinctly.

You thought about this, so how do you describe your profession?

Mine specifically? "I helped two million kids learn to read last year" or "Occasionally, companies fly me out to them so that I can work for a week or three and make them several million dollars. The other 40 weeks of the year I keep myself amused."

Back when I was doing software development every day, the answer was something closer to "You know X university? I make sure their entrance exams run smoothly."

For a generic software developer, "I make my employer absolute piles of money by being clever in the general vicinity of a computer."

patio11's answers are cute, but if you say things like that you'll probably just end up defending yourself against people's misinterpretations. "So you're a teacher?" or "You mean like a security guard?"

I think the best approach is a middle ground, rather than say what you are, or what the ultimate result is, just say what you _do_. "I build websites" or "I build iphone applications" or "I run servers and networks" is something accessible that people can comfortably take wherever they want, e.g. "what language?" or "oh, i just downloaded this cool app that ..."

His cute answer is safer than mine, which is "I rob banks."

You need to internalize something about marketing. When Patrick says, "I helped 2 million kids learn how to read", he has framed the conversation in terms of the value proposition he wants to talk about.

Statistically speaking, "nobody" cares about websites and iPhone applications. Moreover, virtually nobody --- even practitioners --- can tell the difference between someone who is good at building a website and someone who is working from a copy of "learn PHP in 3 hours". Saying what you "do" is a remarkably bad strategy.

If the thought of explaining the broad value you choose to provide to people produces cold sweats, my recommendation is "practice more".

Oh I'm not saying that those answers don't have their place. When you're at a bar or some industry event or chatting with someone in a compatible professional environment, sure.

I guess I was thinking more in line with the last person who asked me this a few days ago: the 52 year old no-nonsense guy carrying a 10 year old nokia who just painted my bedroom. "I helped 2 million kids learn how to read" would have gotten me an eyeroll and a handful more drips left behind. "I build websites" got us on a conversation on how he wants to start a youtube show with his hunting exploits.

Framing the conversation is important, but knowing your audience is just as much so :)

Maybe it's a cultural thing, but those lines don't sound cute, they sound like lies. At a minimum, they're embellishments. I don't understand this need to force people to know how valuable you are.

There are two ways to make people value you: 1) create value, or 2) create the perception of value.

Going around saying "I help 2 million kids to read" sounds like the latter. If you really did help 2 million children to read, and I'm not talking about putting a few words in front of them, but actually having a material impact on literacy levels of 2 million children, then I think your achievements would speak for themselves.

And software developers that make millions for a company in a weekend? Please. Not impossible, but I doubt that people who actually do this need to say it.

efsavage, I always used to use variations on your examples. They almost invariably lead to the other person going "Oh" and the conversation dying a grisly death, right there. They don't give anyone any "grit" they can use to get a good footing on a conversation.

patio11-type answers -- Cathedral Thinking answers -- otoh, open the doorway to conversation. They are the statement equivalent of open-ended questions.

I tend to tell people that I "help small businesses kick ass," which is def an accurate Cathedral Thinking answer, but lacks verve. Still looking for my perfect response.

And an m&a investment banker actually edits a file in word for 14 hours a day and on weekends. For the first 3-4 years he doesn't even get to come up with the content in those files.

It's amazing what people will do for "prestige".

That's not true. There is also Excel ;-)

It's relatively easy for us to be in the top 10-5% of earners. We don't get doctor-respect, nor lawyer-money but… I'd say medium-high prestige.

Additionally I think our prestige is going to keep going up as time goes on.

"So yeah, set your goals right and you'll find you've chosen the one industry where you really can own that coffeeshop."

So there's an interesting idea... Lots of startups start up in coffee shops, at least occasionally overstaying their welcome (from the coffee shop owners point of view). It probably wouldn't be _too_ much of a stretch for a talented developer/consultant to back a $200k investment in return for "office space" for him and his cofounders/employees...

(In much the same philosophy as Starbucks "3rd place" style of business)

$200k in office space is one thing, $200k in office space which requires business licenses, typically shiftless employees, health code inspections, constant renewal of expensive but not durable goods (e.g. croissants go bad in a few hours), etc. etc. etc. not so much.

What you're describing is a coworking facility, which as you guessed was inspired by so many people working at coffee shops.

I believe they avoid the health inspections by simply giving away the coffee and pastries, employing a Keurig machine, or locating in a hip area near good coffee shops, which is often the case. If you provide an ergonomic desk and chair in a quiet room with great internet, then coffee and pastries are less important.

Not even autopilot runs on autopilot as perfectly as software.

Yes, the combination of high pay and time/place flexibility is very appealing compared to the way most people live. You can still apply the same theory within computing, though. For example, a lot of people start out wanting to invent their own programming language, both to "scratch an itch" and because it's a pretty high-status gig. Then they get bogged down implementing libraries and fielding requests for new language features and I'm sure it's no longer so much fun. By contrast, databases or filesystems might seem boring to use but there's actually a lot of exciting work going on under the covers. We even have our own equivalent of the B&B scenario, with people who want to develop cool web stuff and then find they have to spend most of their time on the underlying functionality (assuming they have any worth speaking about). In the end, it's always worth thinking about the job rather than the product.