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Comment by eis | Hacker News Reader

As a kid I always wanted to go to the USA, maybe even live there. So many things to see, the business opportunities and the propagated freedom were very attractive.

During the last decade though, the USA have done a fantastic job of eradicating every bit of what was left of this dream. Nowerdays all you hear from them is how Hollywood is destroying little guys' lifes for downloading a bunch of songs, exporting those policies with force to other countries, insane financial schemes and starting several wars.

Right now I am planning a trip to Japan. A country, which was hit by a nuclear meltdown crisis, floods, earthquakes and more. I'd still choose it over going to the USA any day. Maybe that's something to think about.

The USA are going down fast and it doesn't look like there are changes in sight in regards to their handling of immigrants, the wars or the rampand self-made economic problems.

And that is a shame.

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Same here. When I was a kid I pictured myself living "the american dream" when I grew up, maybe move to the States when I became a successful entrepreneur (haven't made it yet!).

A few years ago I visited the USA for the first time -and have a been there a few times since- and didn't like what I saw. I like Americans, and I like a lot of things about the US, but wouldn't live there at all.

I think the problem was what Hollywood movies made me believe the US was, and what it really is.

EDIT: Not sure why, but this is being downvoted. If you find it offensive or inaccurate, please let me know why. I don't care about the votes, I just would like to know why.

Could you expand on that last sentence, as an American I find it very interesting?

Many immigrants tell me that they came to the US because of all the wonderful movies they watched. TV probably plays a large role as well, now.

You're just repeating the obvious part of what he said; I already know this, I'm interested in the details of what differed between what the movies told them vs their actual experiences.

Just imagine you know nothing about the US except what you see in movies. Do you see a lot of poor people?

There obviously are movies and TV which show a much more "real" version of the world. But the most popular TV and movies tend to show an idealized version of reality.

I can't imagine that because I was raised here, that's why I'm asking. I saw plenty of poor people in real life and in popular movies; when I see American movies, it looks like home to me, it's where I grew up.

I'm a big fan of The Wire, Treme and Shameless (US) for those kinds of shows, suggestions are welcome!

Ditto on the Wire; that show rocked, that's real America on the bad side of town. Couldn't get into Treme, haven't tried Shameless yet.

I've always been a movie buff, and so as a kid I had some miss-conceptions and naive beliefs about the US. Some random ones I can think of now (a bit busy ATM):

- Cops are nice and they are out there to help people.

- There are no criminals in US neighborhoods. It is ok to even leave your car unlocked.

- There's no unemployment in the US (or it's minimal). If you go to college you automatically get a nice paying job. Only college students or lazy ones work at fast food joints.

- Health care is widely available and easy to get by.

The first day I got to the US I was detained at the airport (in TX) because I mentioned to the immigration officer that I (had) worked at immigration in my home country. He freaked out for some reason and I was taken to a tiny room with some people where I was questioned about my "real" reasons to go to the US, I always replied the same (the truth) and they kept pushing like I was lying. This went on for an hour until I was release and allowed to board on the plane to make the connection. Obviously had to take another flight since the original plane had left.

Then that same day I went to a coffee shop with a friend in a quite nice area of Phx, AZ. While we were inside, someone stole the spare wheel from his Jeep. He then told me they had a car stolen a few months before.

I saw several homeless roaming the streets. Which I had always pictured (as a child) only happened in NYC or something, and only because they didn't want to work or had some issues in their personal life.

While talking about living in the US with some friends there, they explained how health care works in the US. Basic health care is free in my home country and higher end procedures are fairly affordable, so I was shocked to learn about the US system. I don't believe much in socialism, but I can't think of a good reason for people in a civilized society to not be healed for free (retirement is a different issue though).

Can't type much more now. Hope this helps!

Very interesting, thank you.

Got a few minutes and wanted to make some more comments...

I've had several ugly situations while entering the US. Last time I visited (March this year) I went through LAX. I was greeted very nicely by the officer, had all my paperwork done and off I went. Then I went to Baja California (MX) where I would stay at a friends/client house.

Then I had to cross the border (through Tijuana) to go to a marketing expo at AZ. The experience was nerve-wrecking. The border patrol officer started telling me I was hiding something because of my body language (apparently he saw too much "Lie to me") and started questioning why I had friends in the US, how had I met them and so on. After about 20 minutes we were let go. Like I said, I've worked at immigration in my home country, so I know how it works and stuff, but there are more professional ways to handle matters than just accuse people, push and see if they bite.

Also, what I missed to add to my comment above... In (most) mainstream US movies, you see that no matter what your job is you can lead a pretty nice life. Even if you work as a bartender, you can have your small apartment and be in charge of your life. I don't think it works like that. I met a client that was a school teacher and he was broke. Some of my clients have declared for bankruptcy, and some very, very rich clients have lost a lot of RE and have to downsize their homes by an order of magnitude.

I know it works like that pretty much everywhere, but for some reason all this things I imagined as a kid, stuck with me until I visited the US. It's like deep down we hope there's a place were things are better, and the US could be that place; so we buy into the dream (until we realize it was a dream and there's no such place).

> The border patrol officer started telling me I was hiding something because of my body language (apparently he saw too much "Lie to me") and started questioning why I had friends in the US, how had I met them and so on

Cops are dicks, plain and simple, they are not your friends; Hollywood definitely glosses over this. The reality is more like Training Day, those are real cops, mostly straight but dirty when it benefits them. How they treat you tends to depend heavily on your race.

> In (most) mainstream US movies, you see that no matter what your job is you can lead a pretty nice life. Even if you work as a bartender, you can have your small apartment and be in charge of your life.

Ah, interesting observation; yea, that's not true that all.

I don't think that all cops are dicks, but they have the power to behave like it if they want to. One of my dream jobs has always been to be a murder investigator though (I'm a big fan of "The Wire"):-)

And yeah, even though I'm from South America, I don't look too latino. I once crossed the border with two mexican friends. They definitely treated them worse than me.

> I don't think that all cops are dicks

I think the vast majority are, and I used to be one so I've known more than a few.

I'm just curious, where are you from?

South America.

The movies in my country are about one man fighting another for the love of a woman, gunfights between families, going from a rural town to the big city and getting robbed then having to return home defeated. They are about things that make a difference on a personal level. American movies are about fighting to save the world. Fighting everyone to protect your family. Doing the right thing. They deal with so much money that the translation seems outrageous. Americans in the movies are kind, wise and noble, but in the real America, people are petty. Walking down the street someone will try to pick a fight because you looked at them. You get hundred dollar tickets, if you cross the street anywhere except the corner. Buses kick people off, if they are missing ten cents. People are quick to point to their Constitutional rights, but are offended by everything save smiles. And that is when you find out that few Americans fit the Hollywood American archetype.

Interesting perspective, though, you seem to have had some bad experiences with Americans, sounds like you've been to the bad side of some big city. Small town America are closer to the Hollywood prototype you see in the movies; friendly people, helping strangers and all that.

What is your home country?

If there are a lot of songs too, it's definitely India :)

I grew up in Mexico. My uncle had lived in California and he always spoke of the US like a mythical land. He talked about orange trees everywhere, which was not something to see in Mexico because all the oranges would be stolen long before they were ripe. And he also spoke of sandwiches the size of your palm. My father had also been in the US and he was more grim in his stories. He spoke of how my uncle lived on animal crackers and water to save money fast because he missed home so much.

My stories are somewhere closer to the middle. I have seen some Americans do amazing things and I have seen Americans act like punks. It's almost as if doing those things is part of being human.

> He talked about orange trees everywhere, which was not something to see in Mexico because all the oranges would be stolen long before they were ripe.

American's pick anything from a tree without being forced to... never happen, lol.

> And he also spoke of sandwiches the size of your palm.

I thought sandwiches were pretty much the same size everywhere?

> I have seen some Americans do amazing things

Such as?

> and I have seen Americans act like punks.

This I expect.

I should have been clearer on the sandwich thing. When he said that it was the size of his palm, he held his hand as he would have held a hamburger. Looking back, I'm quite sure he was describing hamburgers and not sandwiches.

Speaking of sandwiches, I was at a subway. A homeless man was ordering a sub. When his turn to pay came up, he took out a handful of Subway stamps and handed them to cashier. The cashier went on to tell the homeless man about how a roll of stamps had been stolen from that restaurant and that were not accepting them. The homeless man picked up his bag and left. The cashier and the sandwich maker had a small discussion culminating with a who cares is not like he ever bought a sandwich from us. A couple of customers later an older man asked how much for sandwich since it was just going to get thrown away. The guy behind the counter gave a price. He paid for it, walked outside and handed it to the homeless man.

> A couple of customers later an older man asked how much for sandwich since it was just going to get thrown away. The guy behind the counter gave a price. He paid for it, walked outside and handed it to the homeless man.

Nice, I'd do that too.

You might want to look into the immigration procedure here in Japan first. The people are great; almost all that I've met are fine with foreigners. But not so much the government and companies. You need a fair amount of patience to make it here (especially in the work place), unless you already have a contact. Good luck.

I thought becoming a Japanese citizen was impossible for foreigners.

I was referring to residence, being able to live and work legally. Although I don't have any sources, I've heard of a few people who have become citizens. I don't believe it's impossible, just very difficult. Permanent residence on the other hand isn't rare at all.

Yeah, when I was a kid I saw America as "the promised land". Now, not so much.

As a legal immigrant American citizen living in Elk Grove California, let me be the first to say "duh". Movies are a fantasy world. Before I moved to the US, I saw Dangerous Minds and thought all kids in all schools carried guns with them. Of course, this wasn't reality when I moved here.

America has her faults but you really shouldn't discount her beauty based on the news and it's mismatch to movies.

"Hollywood is destroying little guys' lifes for downloading a bunch of songs" - technically they've only sued a few people... and really, people shouldn't be stealing music anymore with songs available for 99cents now.

"insane financial schemes" - ya, there are a few really ethically challenged people who are smart enough to take advantage of others in America. But really, there are a lot of really fantastic people here as well. My business partner is someone I would be comfortable giving a blank check. I've accidentally forgotten my iPhone at Starbucks a couple times and it was returned both times. The area I live in is very safe (knock on wood.) Our garage door has accidentally been left open twice in the last ten years and we had left for the weekend. The first time nothing happened. The second time, our neighbor stayed up all night to keep watch. True story.

There are a lot of good people and yes, there are some bad people. America is a diverse collection of people. That is her strength.

I don't think the USA killed this dream over the past decade. I'm pretty sure things have always been like this for non-whites in the U.S., it is just that the internet allows one to dispel the propaganda.

Ever since Obama came to power American Visa system got fucked up. I work for a consulting firm and people are denied Visa on arbitrary grounds such as "we are not satisfied with your purpose of visit", "why you need to meet your customer face to face" etc.

Even that is fine but funny thing is that same person is allowed visa for the same purpose when he applied next time :)

American under Obama have started some kind of cheap protectionism.

Do you really think it is related to Obama's administration, or just a general trend of official xenophobia and terrorist mumbo jumbo over the past decade?

Not sure but there is a correlation because this trend has escalated ever since he has planned for a re-contest.

It's been pretty fucked-up before Obama, too.

Down voters would you like to explain?

> eradicating every bit of what was left of this dream.

I have never, ever seen a phrase so absolutely and totally full of hyperbole on this site.

Why?

That's his feeling, it is whatever he writes.

Whether it is full of hyperbole or not is not knowable, he'd have to admit to that himself or you'd have to scan his brain.

The sentence was a bit tongue in cheek, something that seems to have completely escaped those piling on with their indignant downvotes, as a way of exercising their frustration with the poor state of US immigration policy. "There, downvoted! Now I've done my part to make the world a better place!".

The US has had problems going back to when it was founded, and slaves - black people, mostly - were counted as 3/5ths of a human being. That's a sight worse than the stupid airport scanners, or many other modern stupidities in my book. There are plenty of other things to dislike about the place, too, that are not recent.

But plenty of things to like, and every other country has plenty of negatives too, if you look closely.

I disagree with plenty of things in the US, but I'm not so fond of sweeping statements.

Fair enough. The reasons why it rubbed me a bit are (1) I know you're an American living abroad, so at least you've seen both sides of the fence, and (2) I used to think much like the OP and today I won't even go to the USA for business any more. They've managed to eradicate a good part of my respect for the country as a whole as well, and one of the main issues is the way new arrivals are treated by immigration.

How the government treats people that are at its mercy is a pretty good indicator for the state of affairs, and in this respect the USA is not looking too good, to put it mildly.

Slavery was appalling, but nobody was advocating 3/5 as an actual statement about their metaphysical humanity. It was a purely political compromise on the total influence and taxation of the south vs. the north, because they couldn't agree on x + 1/2 y or x + 3/4 y. The proper number for congressional representation should have been zero, not because slaves weren't people but because they weren't permitted to vote.

I agree it was worded a bit harshly but on the other hand, that dream I had honestly is gone. So it's not hyperbolic, just maybe not worded perfectly I admit.

Some people may understand my initial comment as bashing against the USA. I want to clearly state that I didn't mean that at all. The last sentence was to express that I'm sad to see such things happen and I'll be the first to cheer if the USA can restore what it used to be and I believe it has everything it takes to achieve that.

I share much of your sentiment, possibly for different reasons. I keep hoping for that moment when the country that I thought was going to be the example of how to run a country will find its bearing again and stop the madness.

The potential of the United States is to influence the world from the moral high ground, the last decade have undone the 20 years of building up that image prior to that.

And it will take at least another 20 years (if not more) to fix that.

About 5 years ago I had an opportunity to move to the US, another year ago a fairly well known company wanted to hire me. In both cases I said 'no thanks', in large part due to how the United States has behaved in the recent past.

The potential for greatness is there, but just like with any project execution matters.

What it used to be when? When black people couldn't vote? When the US was propping up various dictators by virtue of them being "not communists"?

There have always been ugly things about the country - just like pretty much every other country, if you dig some.

Not to say people shouldn't point out the defects and work to improve them, just that hand-waviness isn't part of the solution, IMO.

Yeah, but those things took place before reddit so we don't have to care about them.

I think the point is, ethical progress (be it through abolition of slavery or greater tolerance of difference) should lead to a greater positive effect on the status quo.

If other forms of social, economic and political injustice take the place of previous abominations, the net result is a state which appears disinterested in positively affecting its ethical standing on the world stage.

There is one sense in which the US has noticably regressed. Back In The Day we wrote on the Statue of Liberty "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Then in the had a big panic about foreign terrorists in the early 1920s[1], which ended up with the US cutting back on immigration by more than an order of magnitude. The recent panic about foreign terrorism certainly isn't helping, either.

[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Red_Scare

I think the best sentiment is that we should go back to how things used to be in areas where we've regressed (immigration, human rights, limits on the power of government, etc.) but stay where we are in areas where we've progressed (racial integration, voting rights, overall prosperity, cleaner industry, etc.).

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