ask yourself: why would the US allow these people to come and work here in the first place?
it’s because they NEED them. from highly skilled tech workers to “unskilled” low wage workers. Immigration and pumping human capital into our economy is the way the US stays/stayed? dominant and a superpower.
Close the pipeline and in 10-20-30 years innovation is gone ,the edge we have us gone. The American dream fuels the growth. Act shitty toward the fuel, scratch your head why things fall apart.
Really shocking how an immigrant describing his decades long naturalization process has triggered so many white men!
How much time must pass after a land is conquered before nations are morally justified in enforcing sovereignty over borders? Particularly when the border belongs to a welfare state with finite resources and a host of internal issues that require fixing.
The idea is to not look at a gift horse in the mouth. And stop punishing the most productive people in your economy. You don't want brexit thinking if you want to have an economy.
That's debatable.
>It is a tremendous gift, not a punishment- unless you are alluding to some wierd racial monoculture thing.
Immigration is not free. There are social costs which are being dismissed with shallow accusations of bigotry as an alternative to engagement (as you are implicitly doing with your monoculture reference). All peoples are entitled to preserve their cultures, that a particular nation happens to have a predominantly white population does not erase this entitlement.
Cultures clash. Immigrants vote and potentially originate from countries with incompatible cultures, many of whom have no interest in assimilating, yet their votes influence the laws that natives are obligated to follow. If democracy is meant to represent the will of the people, then it is unfair to dilute representation with immigration from nations with totally different value systems. Case in point is the ubiquitous middle eastern treatment of women; how much influence do you want such beliefs to have over your laws and cultural norms? Not even getting to the statistically proven increase in sexual assaults that native women have to suffer on behalf of immigrants in certain European countries. Consider it the paradox of tolerance.
No, its not.
> votes influence the laws that natives are obligated to follow
Natives? You might want to think again before using that word. Trust me, none of the new immigrants have any violent intentions or intent to steal from earlier immigrants or native Americans.
> Not even getting to the statistically proven increase in sexual assaults that native women have to suffer on behalf of immigrants in certain European countries.
I thought we were discussing US immigration. Columbus was an accomplished rapist too. Or do rapes by white men not count?
> Case in point is the ubiquitous middle eastern treatment of women; how much influence do you want such beliefs to have over your laws and cultural norms?
The post is by an Indian Hindu. Keep in mind that not all brown people are the same. Especially considering the kind of racist violence some white men inflicted on the Jews in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. Perhaps, it is unsafe to let white people dominate a culture. The risk of holocaust and genocide is ever present. It's great if some non white culture is introduced in the society to keep the keep the genocidal tendencies of "white" culture in check.
> shallow accusations of bigotry as an alternative to engagement
You can do your part by not making the bigotry so easy to spot. A highly productive brown immigrant describing his 2 decade long naturalization process really really ticked you off, innit?
>Keep in mind that not all brown people are the same. Especially considering the kind of racist violence some white men inflicted on the Jews in Germany in the 1930s and 1940s. Perhaps, it is unsafe to let white people dominate a culture. The risk of holocaust and genocide is ever present. It's great if some non white culture is introduced in the society to keep the keep the genocidal tendencies of "white" culture in check
Your post is predictably combative so I don't know if you're being ironic here or if you are acknowledging these increasingly common and overt intentions, but in any case you are generalizing all of Europe and today's culture based on the actions of Germany 80 years ago. This is textbook racism. I'd remind you that some 50MM+ white european allies died opposing the nazis.
>You can do your part by not making the bigotry so easy to spot.
This poor substitute for an argument demonstrates my point.
>I thought we were discussing US immigration. Columbus was an accomplished rapist too. Or do rapes by white men not count?
Again, textbook racism. Generalizing all of modern day Europe based on the actions of a small minority from a selection of countries. In any case this is another deflection and says nothing about the modern day increase in documented rapes and assaults. An academic who tried to report on it was placed under investigation [0], so it seems that institutions really do share your fervor in denying inconvenient truths. Almost like people are using equality as a trojan horse for petty revenge.
I've lived in places where you have a zero chance of getting permanent residency, let alone citizenship. Even if you marry a citizen.
A friend of mine lives in a similar country. On paper there is a route to permanent residency, but no one gets it unless they're well connected to a senior government official. Lots of people living there for 30+ years who have to renew their status every few years.
In parts of Switzerland, your neighbors will vote on whether to grant you citizenship.
Of course - it is fair to criticize the US immigration process - particularly in regards to Chinese and Indians. It's also perfectly fair to be grateful that their is a path.
I've lived in places where you have a zero chance of getting permanent residency, let alone citizenship. Even if you marry a citizen.
Could your share the places?> Another country that is very difficult to receive citizenship is Qatar. There are lengthy continuous residence requirements and not all children or spouses receive citizenship automatically.
> Children born in Qatar to Qatari parents are automatically entitled to citizenship. Any person born with a Qatari father may apply to be a citizen, if they meet eligibility criteria. However, the same is not true for individuals with a Qatari mother.
> People who qualify for permanent residence through naturalisation are those who have lived in Qatar for at least 20 years consecutively (if born outside Qatar) or ten years (if born there).
> Applicants must be fluent in Arabic, hold good character, and be able to support themselves financially during their stay.
> Although there are very generous government benefits available for citizens, the government only grants a maximum of 100 permanent residencies per year.
So if you're male, marry a Qatari woman, your kids won't even be citizens. While there technically is a process to get permanent residency, you can see how limited it is - a max of 100 per year, and I bet the majority of those have government connections. Similar story with nearby countries.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZQl6XBo64M
That said, as a green card holder, sure, I'm grateful that the US has this process. But I think Americans need to also acknowledge that they've generated trillions of dollars of wealth from immigrants and they could make the paperwork a little bit simpler.
Also, you are talking about your wife's family?!!! You mean her great great grandparents or even earlier ancestors?
I am very intrigued by this inheritance based credit system that you are proposing that goes beyond wealth inheritance?
Do you still get points if your ancestors participated in the revolt but were highly incompetent? How many points do you lose if some of the ancestors fought on the British side? Do you gain or lose points for capturing native American territory and massacring them? Do you also get to keep the points earned by the slaves the ancestors owned or do they go to the descendants of the slaves? Do you gain/lose points for dropping napalm in Vietnam or searching for WMDs in Iraq?
I find this line of argument intriguing. I have soooooo many questions!
It's not about "assigning points" but rather distinguishing "of a place" from "foreign to a place." I think I win on points--my family was wealthy landowners in Bangladesh, and her's settled the west coast of the US. My family had indoor plumbing way earlier than her's did.
But that doesn't mean I'm "of the U.S." just because I'm a citizen in the same way she is "of the U.S." The U.S. as it exists today reflects the culture that her ancestors handed down to her much more than it reflects the one mine handed down to me.
> I find this line of argument intriguing. I have soooooo many questions!
I have come to the conclusion that most Americans don't understand that culture exists in the same way most can't tell the difference between the national deficit and the national debt. They know the words, but don't actually grasp the concept.
FTFY
Many people don't need a reason to resent immigrants, they just use anything they can use as an excuse.
Yes, for citizenship, as opposed to Permanent Residency - the author of the article must wait another 5 years at the very least to be eligible for citizenship if he desires it.
It's a little ironic at the very least that it's so hard to get into the United States, given its history.
You are not at fault, if you are a good parent, or if you maintain your house well.
So if the child breaks the law, or damages something, if the house has a weakness not known but someone gets injured, you are responsible.
But the due dilligence, such as disciplining, teaching, and trying to instill good values in a child, or inspecting and maintaining your house, are key.
With a democracy, participating, voting, being an activist on vital matters, working to keep your democracy responsible and behaving correctly is that same due diligence.
We're always responsible, but are we at fault? Did we do our best?
Or did we decide that taking care of the child was too much bother, and disappear from their lives?
Did we try, at least?
And twitter posts, facebook this and that don't count here.
Because, would that be how you raise a child? Deriding them on twitter? Yelling at other parents because it was their fault?
There is a difference between the personal things you can influence and being the 1/13000000th voice of the people.
[1] https://www.brookings.edu/research/less-than-half-of-us-chil...
>The Naturalization Act of 1790 (1 Stat. 103, enacted March 26, 1790) was a law of the United States Congress that set the first uniform rules for the granting of United States citizenship by naturalization. The law limited naturalization to "free White person(s) ... of good character", thus excluding Native Americans, indentured servants, slaves, free black people and later Asians, although free black people were allowed citizenship at the state level in a number of states. [1]
Race based citizenship remained the law until United States v. Wong Kim Ark (1898) [2] where the Supreme Court interpreted the "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" clause of the 14th Amendment to meant that anyone physically born in the country was automatically granted citizenship. Race-neutral naturalization wasn't enacted until the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952 [3] and racial discrimination and national original based immigration (not permanent residency as should be obvious) controls weren't banned until the Hart–Celler Act in 1965 [4].
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization_Act_of_1790
[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Ac...
[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_and_Nationality_Ac...
I’m sure there’s some distinction I’m missing.
Why does it matter if a particular race is the majority or minority of citizens? What concerns do you have about it?
Immigrant describes his immigration situation.
Your response
1. How dare you complain
2. I am going to pretend you called Americans racist. (Wattabout Indians being racist)
You or your parents being immigrants is no excuse for your crude behavior.
As a Gore/Kerry supporter I agree. And I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but there’s been a broad repudiation of George W. Bush’s vision for an evangelical role for America in spreading democracy among his own party.
I think Americans have many great virtues. But they’re not aliens, and America isn’t a science experiment. I don’t begrudge any American who wants a country of their own, just like Indians and Bangladeshis do.
Setting aside the fact that your reply had no relevance to OPs argument, I have other questions.
Do you consider your presence in this country impugning on an Americans desire to have a country of their own? Just like Bangladeshis do? Perhaps there is a more appropriate country on this planet that you should call as a country of your own. Why are you treating America as some kind of science experiment?
This clayton bigsby schtick is only funny the first time around.
Of course! My presence changes the country, because I can’t help but bring my foreign values and beliefs with me. People who were already here; and maybe like things the way they were, are entitled to not like those changes.
People back in Bangladesh would certainly complain if my wife’s family headed over there and brought with them all their individualism, social liberalism, notions of gun rights, antipathy to social hierarchy, etc! Different societies around the world are different, and in particular the differences between immigrants and native born go much more than skin deep, because even the ones born here are typically raised and socialized by parents who come from a different culture.
Under international law, distinct peoples are entitled to say “I want a country for people who look like me and have my culture and speak my language.” My home country of Bangladesh exists because of that principle, as do many other countries. Why should I begrudge those Americans who feel the same way?
> Perhaps there is a more appropriate country on this planet that you should call as a country of your own.
As an ethnic Bangladeshi my kids and I have a right of return. I can obtain Bangladeshi citizenship any time I want.
> Why are you treating America as some kind of science experiment?
I try not to! My family was invited here by Americans on certain terms, and nobody has ever really complained. But I think they have every right to complain if they wanted.
> This clayton bigsby schtick is only funny the first time around.
I point out that I hold Americans to the same standard as people from my own country, and you respond by accusing me of self hatred? I hope you realize how incredibly racist that is.
Neither do I, but between "open borders let everybody in" and the Kafkaesque legal immigration process highlighted in the article above, pretty sure we can come up with something in a happy medium that is more useful and less stressful to everybody involved.
Anyone who is a citizen is already an American. Or do you mean only white Americans are "real" Americans?
Who said anything about white people? I’m talking about distinct cultural communities with roots in the country, who live in places which are deeply reflective of the culture of those people. Some of those people are white (like my wife’s family who settled the Oregon coast), some are Hispanic (Mexican Americans in Texas), many are Black, many are American Indians. Conversely, many white people lack deep roots in the country, and no part of the country really reflects their cultural heritage.
One of the most fundamental aspects of democracy is drawing the boundaries of the body politic. My parent’s generation went to war to create a country where the body politic would be mainly Bangla-speaking people, instead of sharing a body politic with Urdu-speaking Pakistanis. Why would I begrudge a descendant of Germans in the Midwest or a Tejano in Texas for having the same impulse?
When you mention Germans below are you talking about the Chinese origin Germans?
>One of the most fundamental aspects of democracy is drawing the boundaries of the body politic.
You're conflating legal immigration and demographic shifts to open-borders. Those are not the same.
>My parent’s generation went to war to create a country where the body politic would be mainly Bangla-speaking people, instead of sharing a body politic with Urdu-speaking Pakistanis. Why would I begrudge a descendant of Germans in the Midwest or a Tejano in Texas for having the same impulse?
I don't know what impulse you're referring to. Please expand on that.
I gave several examples of people who could point to a part of the country and say that their ancestors built those communities and those places reflect the unique culture that’s been handed down to them from their ancestors. Some of those examples were “white” and others were not: Mexicans in the southwest or Black people all over the south.
I lived in Atlanta for many years, a city that’s distinctly shaped by the culture of southern Blacks, and which continues to attract Black people for that reason: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/opinion/georgia-black-pol....
What Charles Blow talks about in the article above is an especially poignant example of a universal impulse: the desire to live among and be governed by people from one’s own cultural community. Nobody suffers more for not having a “country of their own” than Black and indigenous people in America, but the underlying impulse to want that is universal.
> You're conflating legal immigration and demographic shifts to open-borders. Those are not the same.
I’m not talking about “open borders.” I’m talking about having to share political power over your own community with people from a different cultural background. With the example of Bangladesh and Pakistan, there was no immigration involved. My parent’s generation fought a war against Pakistan because we didn’t want to be in the same body politic as Pakistanis.
> I don't know what impulse you're referring to. Please expand on that.
The impulse for people from distinct cultural groups to govern themselves. Bengalis didn’t want Pakistanis to have control over the laws that applied to them. They wanted their own country that they could run the way they wanted.
Notions of governance are deeply intertwined with culture, and having people from distinct cultures try to govern each other leads to tremendous animosity. One concrete example: my family comes from a part of the world that’s had government and civilization for thousands of years. We’re farmers going back to before anyone can remember. My wife’s family, by contrast, settled the frontier of the United States, living off the land, and not being able to count on established governments to help them (because there were not any).
This leads to extremely divergent world views between my dad and my wife. My dad said the other day that he doesn’t see why anyone needs a gun because “nobody hunts for food.” This is true to him—nobody has hunted for food in Bangladesh as long as anyone can remember. Meanwhile my wife grew up hearing people refer to “store bought meat” because it was the exception until her parent’s generation. She grew up eating meat that her grandfather had hunted. It’s a completely different acquired understanding of not only the role and purpose of guns, but more generally the relationship between and among people, the land, and authority.
I look at those interactions and think: if someone from rural Oregon is mad at people like my dad coming to America from Bangladesh, who thinks “nobody hunts for food,” and voting to take away his guns, why isn’t that justified? Why can’t he be mad that people who aren’t acculturated into the cultural underpinnings of his community have so much power in deciding how that community should now be governed? Why would I begrudge him that sentiment when my uncle fought in a war over the same exact impulse?
Americans of German, English, Irish, Italian, Swedish origin are not all seeking to maximize the number of individual ancestral cultures being represented in the government. Inside Europe, the Italian culture is completely different to German culture. Being American is not the same as being Italian or being German. Which is why I asked if you were lumping everyone seemingly white as having the same culture.
>if someone from rural Oregon is mad at people like my dad coming to America from Bangladesh, who thinks “nobody hunts for food,” and voting to take away his guns, why isn’t that justified? Why can’t he be mad that people who aren’t acculturated into the cultural underpinnings of his community have so much power in deciding how that community should now be governed? Why would I begrudge him that sentiment when my uncle fought in a war over the same exact impulse?
If people can't convince others and get consensus on their ideas, then those ideas should die out. Tough shit. We managed to clear out the idiots objecting to giving civil rights to minorities and voting rights to women. A country is not static, the laws are not static and should never be. The laws are something we made up to serve our needs. It's a democracy, and all citizens get to vote and make decisions. What you're describing sounds anti-democracy.
Edit: The guns issue is a hot-button but you can draw parallels to anything that one group of people want to "preserve". Well if you want to preserve it - go make the effort of convincing people who aren't convinced. I can appreciate guns from an engineering perspective, but I think owning guns and killing defenseless animals from a distance is not something I would personally do. But I am not "taking it away" from anyone I am simply exercising my right as a citizen.
>Oh, you think Americans are racist for wanting to restrict immigration? How would people in India react to massive immigration from Africa?
It's my view that people, in any country, should seize political power to fight for and implement changes they wish to in a legal, peaceful and non-violent manner. Whether it's about healthcare/internal policies/laws/immigration/foreign policy or whatever. If legal immigrants wish to fight for changes to the immigration system, then they should use all the legal rights they are afforded to under the current law. The previous arcs of history are all irrelevant, people should use the power they have in the here and now.
India's requirement is 12 years seems a lot, but practically Indian citizen's path to citizenship in US is more than that(~10 years to get GC + mandatory 5 years after GC). EB1 might be an exception, which will also come around 6-8 years. But most end up waiting more than 15 years to become US citizens.
US restricts employment visas with a specific time limit. L1(7 years) and H1(6 years). After that period, you have to stay out of the country for 12 months, before you can reapply again. The other option is to apply for Green Card (Permanent Residency). So most of them end up applying GC rather than move out of the country for an year.
US has weird rules that inherently makes difficult even for employment based visas. E.g. If your visa is near expiry, then you can apply for extension. But the extension processing times takes up months. You can't travel out of the country during that period. Even if your petition is approved, then you have to go to US embassy in your country of citizenship to get visa stamped in your passport. Unless you have a visa stamped in your passport, you can't reenter US. Practically there is no visa appointment slots available at US embassies in India at this time. You are in a soup if you have to travel on an emergency
https://twitter.com/debarghya_das/status/1520966725210042368
https://twitter.com/USAndChennai/status/1517067638584664064
If a foreigner works in India on an employment visa, I don't think they have to run into issues what someone faces with the US immigration system. Just see what Curl's author Daniel Stenberg experience with US Visa process,
Ok, but the article doesn't even talk about naturalization? It's talking about permanent residency.
To wit: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cisco-lawsuit/california-...
Note that India does not have a kafkaesque renewal process for work visas like America does.
People do not get to choose where and when to be born.