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Comment by dale_glass | Hacker News Reader

Personally I find modern technology to be very liberating.

When I was a child, even going around my own city was a stressful thing. What if I get lost? What if I run out of money for the train? How do I know I got the bus in the right direction? (the darn things didn't announce stops at all).

The first times I traveled involved printing a stack of papers including names, addresses, and maps. Getting to a hotel in a country you've never been before and without having a good command of the local language is stressful.

With modern tech? It's all a breeze. I can find a route to anywhere, check if the place I'm going to is open, call for help if needed, find a bar/restaurant/hotel if something unplanned happens, talk to the people I'm going to meet, check on the status of my flight...

Yeah, I don't feel very comfortable without my phone precisely because it provides so much useful stuff that I don't have otherwise. And no, it's not because I've grown addicted to it, but because the discomfort that I already had before smartphones were a thing returns.

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I want to just dive into a little bit of a tangent.

It's interesting to me that you're liberated by having access to everything all the time. Personally I find it pretty constraining. It makes me feel like there's nothing to discover, no mystery, no journey. If I wanted to find the best restaurant, I wouldn't have to go out and explore the local options or discuss it with friends. The more efficient and correct way would be to just search for it in the database. There's no excuse for going someplace without knowing anything about it, since all the information is so easily accessible.

While yes, google maps has allowed me to always know where I am, it does so at the cost of defining a "correct" path to any destination. Any deviation from the "correct" way is no longer happenstance, but a deliberate inefficiency that demands explanation.

I agree. You are describing the concept of flaneuring, which is something that is getting lost on this hyperconnected culture.

My worry is that by removing all chance of variability in our lives, we become automatons.

And we become dependent on it as well.

Also, I for one miss serendipity.

You don’t need an excuse to explore blindly. I agree that you no longer have one, but I think that is simply a fact of the modern world that requires adaptation. We have to be more honest with ourselves about why we explore.

Agreed 100%. Something I enjoyed doing a lot during the height of the pandemic was getting in my car and simply driving around, looking specifically for places I haven't been before. I'd drive up and down mountain roads, through small towns I'd passed through before but never paid attention to, and then when I was eventually unavoidably hopelessly lost, I'd pull out my phone and Waze my way back home.

For me, having that power to find my way home no matter how lost I'd get gave me the freedom to get out and explore.

Also, believe it or not, maps or apps lie. Just two days ago, I passed by a CVS that was listed as still open on google maps whereas it had already been closed.

On the exploration aspect, I'm really amazed that people really trust online reviews when restaurants clearly try to mess with the process or angry customers try to tank places they've had one-off bad experiences with. I take reviews as just another piece of information, just like word-of-mouth or paper reviews were before.

I really don't get that attitude, and this might sound a little harsh, but if GP is really the stereotypical "epicurean" type who wants to experience the world, they should already know online reviews aren't gospel and can be incorrect. I don't know how one couldn't know that unless there is some other reason for not exploring places and such even when google tells you this place is 4 stars while this place is 3.

Restaurant ratings are also a poor signal precisely because they're all relative to the restaurant type.

You can't honestly say a 4.9 star McDonald's is better than a Michelin star restaurant with a rating of 4.8, but it could (and probably does) happen.

In my city, ratings for Chinese restaurants almost inversely correlate with quality. The real quality Chinese restaurants have amazing food but absolutely shite service, and it's that terrible (yet oddly authentic) service that brings down their score.

Meanwhile the Manchu Wok (sort of like a PF Chang's maybe?) next door gets a higher rating.

Agree. Years ago when I saw Taco Bell with a 4-star rating I knew Yelp was not going to be very useful to me.

I find the same with Netflix. Some absolute gems have terrible scores because it is not the usual stuff people watch on tv

Having information doesn't constrain you, it's your choice what to do with it.

You don't have to follow the GPS' directions. You could just use it to find which way to walk, then take whatever path you want. You can get a list of restaurants and then ignore the ratings.

I've had the opposite experience. Google Maps has enabled me to explore randomly with a lot more confidence than before. Now I'm much more willing to take a random side-road, knowing that I won't get lost even if there are no street name signs. I also know that I can return to my original destination as efficiently as possible instead of getting stuck unable to merge back onto a motorway.

Similarly, I'm now much more relaxed about taking random road trips to "wherever". I know I can find fuel, food, and bathrooms.

You do it because your tastes are different than others. Just because it is labeled as the best restaurant doesn't mean it is the best nor does it mean you will like it. There are still plenty of out of the way places to explore. On the other hand, if you don't have time to explore it can help you narrow down your choices. Not to mention of you search for "best restaurant at place x" you'll get a half dozen different ones. It is just a tool, just it wisely.

I frequently eschew the usage of google maps when traveling after the initial, stressful arrival in a new place. Just because you have the power of google maps at your fingertips all the time, it doesn’t mean you need to use it all the time. And no, it doesn’t demand an explanation to do so. It is your friggin life, live it as you wish, you owe us nothing.

This pretty much nails it, though in my case I wasn't a child.

In my early 20s I lived in Japan for a few years. Early on, before I had a phone of any type (let alone a smartphone), it was incredibly stressful – even though I had studied the language prior to arriving, it wasn't enough to handle more than the most basic situations and trying to meet and coordinate with others was a nightmare. If anything deviated from the plan, including me getting lost somewhere along the way, it all fell apart.

After having been there for a couple of months I got an iPhone 3GS and it was transformative, even though things like map apps were nowhere near as good as they are now (for example, all the location names were still in Japanese even in the English version of the app, and couldn't handle transit instructions). With it I felt much more confident in going places and doing things. Being able to text or be texted, "hey I'm going to be late" or see where I am on a map instantly such a huge thing.

This effect isn't going to be strong in one's own country of course, but it's still going to be there whenever visiting an unfamiliar area.

Before the pandemic, I went to Japan for 3 weeks and my cellphone was absolutely a lifesaver.

I went to a lot of city where I would have been lost without Google Lens, Google Maps, HyperDia for trains, "Japan Official Travel App", etc.

But with it, I've traveled accross less touristic cities and I was feeling confortable visiting local places without ant knowledge of the Japanese language beside a few words.

I would never dare to do that without my phone.

It was somewhat joyful for me to be lost in Tokyo the moment my wife and young daughters stepped off the train. While I had a sort of crude printed map showing the location of our hotel from the station, I still had to approach several very shy Japanese locals and try with my English to get oriented with regard to the map (since there are of course maybe a dozen or so ways to have exited said station).

What came to mind, "I have always depended on the kindness of strangers."

I thought it made for a good example for my children who might be otherwise afraid to simply ask someone for directions (even though they might speak a different language).

> If anything deviated from the plan, including me getting lost somewhere along the way, it all fell apart.

I hate to say it, but this is exactly why most people are tourists and not travelers: getting lost is the best part of traveling, it's only when you randomly find yourself in the most remote part of say Kyushu that you find the quaint ramen shop that you have the best bowl of Tonkotsu and meet a lot of people that were never mentioned in your AAA travel brochure when you realize what it really is all about.

Nothing about what you said was how I traveled all over Europe back in 2012 and I probably did more in 2 weeks than you did in a year as a result. (I lived there for 3.5 years, and I speak over 5 languages now for those reasons.)

Technology is fine, it's the person who makes it a replacement for Life that is my issue.

With that said, I just traveled half way around the World with 5 phones, none of which had any data (and sim cards weren't recognized in some networks) and I got home fine.

I too value getting lost while traveling sometimes, but that's for me to do in my own time, not when trying to honor commitments made with others.

Getting lost is how I found "Piss Alley" in Tokyo [1]. It became a must-stop after.

My fondest memories are steaming hot gyoza in the alley — and sharing a bench with a Japanese professor (whose English was very good), him recommending one drink after another (the first time I tried Korean makgeolli).

[1] https://youtu.be/g169m7SbmYU

I was in Japan in the pre smartphone years and it was really hard. To go anywhere by train I had memorized a fixed number of routes, though its not like I would randomly cross the city to go to a famous ramen place or something, because I’d just get lost anyway. I honestly can’t remember how we found things in Tokyo since there is no consistent street address system, probably just getting close and circling for 20 minutes or asking someone, or trying to read numbers off telephone polls or local area maps. There was a sense of one’s “home turf” where you knew everything, and then leaving that was like exploring somewhere new. Now when I travel its an undifferentiated mass of places I can look up on google. I miss the serendipity of it all now, the excitement of finding something really cool and unexpected, but don’t have as much time to explore.

I recently started intentionally leaving my phone behind precisely to get those uncomfortable feelings back again, albeit to some controlled degree. I enjoy having to problem solve, I enjoy navigating novel situations, I enjoy feeling real accomplishment after solving problems rather than just having the answers given to me.

Of course there's other ways to get those feelings in life, but I was in general just finding myself getting way too comfortable in daily life. It felt abnormal, unnatural, in a way. There's also the added benefit of not being able to retreat into your phone for entertainment, it forces you to engage with the world around you.

I find the value of a smart phone irreplacable, it allows me to do all kinds of things and live all kinds of ways that were impossible before.

Yet I also love leaving my smart phone at home, or in my pocket, and trying to get lost and then get home.

Why not focus on solving problems the smartphone hasn't solved yet?

Because sometimes the fun is the journey itself, and not the destination.

Try leaving your wallet (or equivalent) at home rather than your smart phone. ;)

I like this perspective, and indeed, I recently had a physical job interview and it went like this: I bike to the train station, check when the next train will arrive and as I walk into the station (phone knows where I am, I just enter where I want to go), then prep for the interview on the train, Apple pay for a sandwich at a transfer station, check email for exact address, use navigation to walk to the final destination. I had a Teams call with colleagues on the train even.

It's all doable without smartphone, but the prep time and the notes and cash (or passes) I'd have to take...

I had to leave my country a couple of months ago because of the war. If not for the modern technology, I would become a poor refugee, locked out of my money, without any income and social connections and would be relying on finding benevolent strangers.

But with it, I almost painfully transitioned to digital nomad lifestyle. My remote job didn't suffer except for a single week long absence, I have access to all of my savings, I'm in contact with everybody I know, and I just go from living in Hilton to the next airbnb.

Finding yourself in a new country where you don't know a single soul used to be terrifying. Now I it's the most natural thing.

I’m assuming “my country” = Ukraine. I’d love to hear more about your experience. Do you feel you want be able to go back in near future? Or is this the new lifestyle the way you want things to be?

No, it's Russia, and I can't compare my hosted evacuation right after the start of the war with what Ukrainians are going through.

But unlike them, I don't see myself ever coming back. Ukraine will be rebuilt after this war, and will be stronger than ever. But Russia is completely done after this moral catastrophe regardless of how the war ends.

Well said. It is disappointing to see such black and white thinking in discussion of the role of technology in daily life.

Do I think there is a real problem with how social media brings out the worst in society? Very much so. But that is almost entirely orthogonal to how I use the (frankly amazing) pocket supercomputer I now carry with me every day.

When I was a kid, mail back home when we lived overseas was a three-month round trip. A 15-minute phone call on Christmas was only possible by pulling a lot of strings. Nowadays? I can pull up a half-dozen webcams in the same neighborhood from literally across the globe.

We may be coming to grips as a world in how to talk to each other effectively, but I don't miss being cut off. Communication matters.

Would you make the same argument for amphetamines? Wonder what Erdős would have to say about this.

As far as communication goes, frankly, I regard large swaths of the internet as hostile and cognitohazardous. I'd rather be cut off. Though, fortunately the choice has already been made for me - there is no escaping assimilation.

The psychological dependence is already taking root; the societal dependence is next to come. Cash is dirty. There are no taxis to hail on the road. You require a COVID app to gain entry to this venue.

Some of what you described I believe to be very healthy discomfort. The type that is needed for growth. The type that can often lead to unexpected adventures. The type that you become thankful for years down the road. "It's all a breeze" is my biggest fear re: how society seems to be optimizing itself right now. Truth be told, a breezy life doesn't feel that interesting to me.

Of things I used to need to carry, interface with, or reference the iphone is: a gps/atlas, camera, camcorder, dictionary, calculator, encyclopedia, checkbook, pager, e-mail terminal, yellow pages, on and on, and a phone. It’s easy to pretend that it’s just a doom-scrolling distraction but that’s not true. To give up all those other things would make life much more difficult.

Agreed. Years ago I decided to stop texting people as the primary form of contact and instead call them. Now everyone I know calls me cause they know I don't text. This cut down my phone usage by a lot.

I also don't pull it out to pass time, instead I just try to think about my schedule and sort out thoughts. I remember reading someones comment on HN where they said it's ok to be bored, that down time is the best for organizing things in your head, and I've stuck to that ever since.

And although I hardly use my phone I still feel some anxiety not having it when I leave the house.

> And although I hardly use my phone I still feel some anxiety not having it when I leave the house.

Edge case anxiety?

I feel the same anxiety if I don't have my wristwatch so maybe it's more like the dread of missing something

I went to Canada on a work trip some years back, and there was basically no way for me to get mobile internet in any way - roaming would have been absurdly expensive, like several euro per MB expensive, I couldn't get a local sim card that would work with my phone(and even if I could all offers were weirdly expensive and not worth it for just a week long visit) - and yeah, I felt super uncomfortable travelling anywhere. It was difficult finding places to go or even calling a taxi.

But then I went just before the pandemic hit and I managed to get a card with like 2GB of data on it, and oh my god it transformed the experience entirely, for the extact reasons you said - it was just liberating. I could suddenly summon an uber, find places to eat, look up opening times at nearest attractions....my stay was about 100x more enjoable thanks to that.

It’s so much easier with a smartphone and data. Luckily it’s even easier to get a SIM card now. In most countries you can get an esim online.

To put it another way, consider if you have a significant other (where you share bank accounts, for example):

Are you uncomfortable without your phone even if they have theirs?

I’ve been in this situation and it’s not a problem at all. In some situations, it may be an inconvenience, but I wouldn’t call it “uncomfortable”.

But with my SO having her phone, we have all emergency situations covered (directions, contacting others, money, etc.), and that doesn’t — and _shouldn’t_ — bother me.

I don’t get this. I got a cel phone when I was 22. Before that, I didn’t have the faintest idea that I was missing anything. I ranged as far as I could, first by bike, then by car. I kept quarters in my car for pay phones. I had a book of paper street maps on the floor in the back seat. I knew where every amenity of every type was in every town in the eastern half of the state. I learned their locations by looking out the windshield.

Not only that, but having a camera with you at all times is fantastic. Besides the typical selfies with friends and random shots, it's a way to capture some proof that you gave someone money, or that your car was hit from the side. Then there's the ability to take notes without worrying about losing a pen and paper. Basically, it's a "digital recording device" that we've taken for granted.

It took me a while to internalize "Just take a picture." And arguably it's still not an automatic reaction. Sure, most of the time you don't need it but it's essentially free.

Unless your day-to-day is so extraordinary that you don't have any kind of routine, it seems that you are using the exceptional cases to justify the rule?

Before working from home I had a routine that would be pretty regular till end of workday, but evenings were often as not totally spontaneous affairs, especially in summer. Without a smartphone a lot of that wouldn't have happened since we wouldn't realistically have planned those things in advance, and I'd have been lost in parts of the city I don't know well quite a few times, late at night and all. With my smartphone, I can just rent a bike (can't do that here without an app) and have the phone navigate me home. I'm old enough to remember quite well how difficult and frustrating these situations could get before smartphones.

I used to carry a real camera around (and I got tons of super spontaneous shots out of it that I'm very fond of), now the iPhone will do that too. It's become a bit like the small pocket knife I always carry, a minimal one with just blade, bottle/can opener, screwdriver, I feel naked without it because it's been so very handy hundreds of times. Same with my smartphone, I use it so much for things that would be a hassle otherwise that not having it on me is a real impediment.

This must be like when in threads about Uber, people describe taxis as a traumatizing hellscape. When I was a child, I figured out how my city was shaped, and figured out how to get around. Knowing how to get around one's own city is a skill worth learning, and is less of a time investment than fishing around for a phone to spend minutes futzing around with for the rest of your life.

> The first times I traveled involved printing a stack of papers including names, addresses, and maps. Getting to a hotel in a country you've never been before and without having a good command of the local language is stressful.

Not a problem most people have often. For the pretty well-traveled, maybe a few times a year.

There are some of us who will never learn 'how to get around' one's city. We lack a head for sense of direction, for memorising landmarks etc. We can try all our life, and we'll only cope, but never be comfy.

Of course, if I'm just going to commute to the office and come back, I could do it blindfolded, and those days it's easy to be without the phone. It's exactly when you're doing something unusual that the phone is so handy.

Just because you don’t have the problem doesn’t mean you should trivialise someone else’s experience. How rude.

Try listening more, and hold back from telling people how to solve problems they didn’t ask for help solving.

And yet you are trivialising the experience of the person you are replying to.

How rude.

Thing is, there's no symmetry here.

If some people genuinely have problems and some genuinely don't, then only common conclusion is that the problems do exist (for some) and so solutions to them are required, so the experiences of the people who had problems can't be trivialized (because that experience is relevant for solving the problem even if they're in the minority) and the experiences of the people who didn't have a problem should be trivialized unless there's a good argument that those experiences almost universal and the problem actually is not real.

>If some people genuinely have problems and some genuinely don't

You only gather data to reach that conclusion by letting both sides talk about their experiences, not by telling one side "you're rude, shut up and listen more".

No, the conclusion that some people genuinely have problems can be reached without listening to the experiences of those who don't have problems, the testimony of the people with problems is fully sufficient for that conclusion.

As I explained above, even if some people genuinely don't have those problems, that is simply irrelevant if others do have them.

No, that would lead you to conclude that all people have problems

Someone expressed a problem they have which having a map helps them with, the reply was that people who need maps are lazy (despite the existence of maps suggesting that needing them is endemic to human existence).

Whose experience am I trivialising here?

I am not interested in participating in your purity politics.

Not once was laziness mentioned, you are projecting. The post is just someone sharing that their own experience is completely different to that of the parent.

> When I was a child, I figured out how my city was shaped, and figured out how to get around.

You either live in a pretty small city, or an exceptionally well-laid one. I have lived in the same city all my life, and while I have a pretty good idea of where major points of interest are, and can probably walk or drive home from anywhere in the city, I definitely don't have any chance of finding a random address someone gave me, or finding a bus&tram route there.

We had maps, bus schedules phone books. It wasn’t that hard.

Sure - with pre-planning. That is simply no longer required, which is a clear improvement with no downsides (though phones do have other downsides, no doubt about that).

I moved to the SF Bay area and it was great being able to use the GPS + map app to see where you are on the BART. Its impossible to understand the announcements if they are even made at all.

Yeah, I remember having to drive alone across Europe before consumer GPS was a thing. I had a pile of maps and had to stop regularly to study them. But driving in cities like Berlin and Frankfurt was a nightmare - most of the time stopping wasn't an option, I had a map on my steering wheel at all times, trying to read street names and signs in a language I didn't understand.

The smartphone generation will never understand.

I agree with the feeling of liberation, but I’ve also known a time when I had to navigate the world without a phone, and there was a solution: ask for help. It was stressful to interact with stranger, at least the initial contact, but also very enjoyable to get advice and simply an answer to my question. I never get a feeling of gratitude for my phone and I miss it.

Those are all excellent points, but fail to address the addictive downsides OP mentioned.

The business model of the internet has always been surveillance and modern smartphones + tech companies have taken that to the extreme.

Brilliant engineers / behavioral scientists using supercomputers to manipulate humans at scale guarantees that the average individual (and teenagers etc) has absolutely no fighting chance.

The thing about addiction at this scale is that... no one things they're addicted because our entire world/society is addicted - so we all justify it and move on.

I went on a silent meditation retreat for 10+ days (with no technology, talking, or smartphones etc) and it was awesome for my mind, but then, turning my phone on after 10+ days of it being off brought back the dread 2x as more.

I traveled (as did many at the time) quite extensively in countries around the world with minimal planning and/or knowledge and no phone and it was absolutely fine.

Secure personal storage of documents and cash is the only must. Politeness and respect for local people was also very helpful.

The big upside is that you have genuinely unexpected experiences.

A lot of the things you're worried about are worries about the design and efficiency of the systems you're encountering, like buses should be frequent enough that getting the wrong direction would be an inconvenience, not about getting lost. You could repeat for a number of other things. Mobile and internet technologies are papering over a lot of societal ills that are either being neglected or are being destroyed for other reasons.

That is because you were a child. Not because you didn't have a phone.

I don't think that's true at all. There's a lot of sources of anxiety (while on the go) that having a phone with you mitigates.

- If I miss my turn (gps will renavigate)

- If I can't find the place (I can call them and ask)

- If there's something else I need to get while I'm out (my spouse can call me and tell me)

- My tween, who stayed at home while I ran to the store, has a problem (she can call me)

These are all things (except for the last one) that I experienced without a phone, as a grown adult. And I don't really experience anymore because I have a cell phone on me.

How did humanity manage?! /s

Don’t get me wrong, smartphones are great conveniences, I can land in a foreign country and book a hotel, a car from the airport, find a place for lunch, etc. all (surreptitiously) while waiting at passport control. That being said I making a plan with someone (and not flaking), and doing a little research/looking at a map, asking friends for recommendations, was never that hard)

Humanity also managed without computers for a very long time.

But look at that, we're both here. Guess the tech must be good for something, and it's better than not having it.

I remember this life well, I guess the trick is to use only the time saving feature of the smart phone (the are enormous), and skip the time sinks... They are equally enormous :)

We also managed without telephones, airplanes, automobiles and a bunch of other things we take for granted in modern life. I still find them useful and want them around.

Not only that, but a phone solves the "where am I" problem, which was such a pain when I was younger. Having to look for the nearest street signs while driving around, barely being able to read them and guessing its suffix, then searching the map index for which coordinate that street is in. Basically all problems solved by GPS. The directions feature you pointed out is basically a whole other application (replacing printing mapquest or written directions).

Never traveled to a country where you didn't speak the language, I'm guessing?

You describe basically google maps. It may surprise you, but there are few million other apps for it, some more addictive, some just functional, many creating this cozy sweet little trap of comfort, security, instantness (for the lack of better word).

What it gives to you, me, anybody, is 2-faced gift. The positives are really nice, the negative is utter dependence ie in way you describe. If somebody would blast all mobile antennas in your city, you would be screwed, desperate, possibly depressed. The term liberating may have different meaning to different people.

I would be screwed too, but rather due to losing instant contact with my closest family and instant way to manage my property via airbnb/vrbo - this is the reason I started using my phone on vacations. Before, I would just keep roaming turned off, not log into wifis and spend 2 weeks (or 3 months) of proper disconnect. Simple, wonderful, magical times they were.

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