Citizens reject proposed South Africa law linking biometrics to SIM cards | Hacker News Reader

Citizens reject proposed South Africa law linking biometrics to SIM cards

itweb.co.za

145 pointswalterbell47 comments

> Governments across the globe that introduced biometrics in SIM cards > as part of the on-boarding process, to clamp down on fraud, include > China, Afghanistan, Mexico, Pakistan, Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan > and Venezuela.

This list of countries should tell you everything you need to know about the spread of techno-authoritarianism. I've spoken to Nigerians who say they've had enough and want out due to overbearing and corrupt government there. They tell me that corruption is both perpetrated by the government and then used as an excuse to clamp down on personal liberties and freedom of business that ultimately benefits corrupt government officers. It's a vicious downward spiral fuelled by digital technology.

We need much more stuff like Declaration for the Future of the Internet [1]. Though I don't see how that can directly help people in these kind of regimes when we allow our own companies like Bluecoat [2] to export oppressive technologies.

[1] https://www.internetgovernance.org/2022/04/29/the-declaratio...

[2] https://slate.com/technology/2013/01/blue-coat-citizen-lab-r...

> It's a vicious downward spiral fuelled by digital technology.

Aided more than fuelled ( fuel implies that if it's cut the fire will stop). The history of corruption and opression show no technology is required for that, but it certainly helps.

Hard to look forward to a VR/metaverse future with these trends continuing.

Why, wouldn't you want to spend your entire life in a virtual world completely controlled by a single mega corporation? /s

could we re-phrase this with some stark language? of course "metaverse" participation can be cut at any time from behind closed doors, and of course individual finances are linked to these virtual worlds.

It's just going to be Second Life with a ton of corporate chat bots. Nobody is going to be interested in their shit.

Biometrics also seems excessive for a SIM, but it could also be that these countries don't have reliable methods of identifying people. Denmark also require your identity to be tied to your SIM, but is using your national ID, rather than biometrics.

As for the countries in your list, yes, reducing fraud is most likely just an excuse.

How does Denmark require this? You can buy a SIM for cash from a kiosk, or a vending machine in the airport.

True, but you’ll need to activate it. That is done online, using your NemID. You cannot buy, or steal, a bunch of SIM and simply use the right away. They won’t work unless activated.

I haven’t tried in recent years, but those SIMs I bought for testing 8 or 10 years ago, in cash, from shady kiosks, all needed to be activated.

I don't think that's the case. You should be able to take a Lebera or Lycamobile SIM and use it immediately, buying additional credit on vouchers from kiosks.

It's years since I did this, but it's the way for visitors and immigrants to get a Danish phone number before they even have a CPR number.

>This list of countries should tell you everything you need to know

Not sure that part is all that meaningful. e.g. Pretty sure the UK and EU can already link my biometrics and SIM

It doesn't feel great but it doesn't feel awful. In Australia (admittedly a place that people already label as authoritarian) you need to provide DL or passport to activate a SIM, and those are already linked to biometrics so this doesn't feel like too much of a reach.

But I guess some hellish future exists where telcos start selling/capitalising biometric info, so yeah...

In what way? In the UK you can go to your local tesco or other big shop and grab a prepaid SIM card very easily. In fact, my university’s CS Dept used to have a bowl full of £5 prepaid SIM cards that sat in a bowl near the entrance.

Then I would be more worried about which radical extremist would use it to plot the next terror attack. With some proof of ownership of the sim one would atleast have a human trace. Sure terrorists these days use satellite phones but giving away sims on a bowl without any proof of ownership is just lowering the entry barrier.

You can pay homeless or poor people to buy anything you want. Was pretty common when I worked at att. Granted that was for fraud with leased phones but if they just wanted a sim card with no connection to them it would work fine.

Nigerian here. The initiative to link SIMs with biometrics kicked off after that highly-publicized series of ENDSARS protests protesting corruption, police brutality. The protests were eye-opening for the government (that popular resistance could be organised without people ever meeting in person) so they want better tools to link you finances, etc. to your communications.

Roughly three weeks ago, telcos started disconnecting numbers that haven't been linked with biometrics & I've been barred from making calls since then.

Am curious. How do you make calls now? Did you resort to using Whatsapp for calling your contacts? How do you call your grandma back in the village?

I can spend weeks without calling anyone but I'm currently using a SIM registered by a sibling for those few times when I really need to.

Can I walk over to the NIMC (Identity Management commission) office to get one? Yes. Will I? We'll see about that.

Oh, and I forgot to mention that the process of getting the national identity number is fraught with corruption and you might typically need to pay under the table to fast track it.

Just another Saturday in the "Giant of Africa."

This comment was inexplicably dead so I vouched it.

Their stated rationale for doing this is to reduce the incidents of SIM/number hijacking.

Speaking as a South African who in 2019 ported my number to a different service provider, this was the SMS (verbatim) I received when I ported my number:

> MTN has received a request to port your number. If this is incorrect, please reply 1 to this SMS within 45 minutes.

Which I (and I expect most people reading this) consider a terrifyingly bad process. What if for some reason I didn't see my messages for an hour, or was on a flight or something?

Assuming the process hasn't changed, then there are much less drastic options they can look into first.

Also: "1"?? At least make it a different code every time.

Before looking at biometrics they should first fix the regular processes..

> At least make it a different code every time.

Why?

If somehow you can send a spoofed reply to that number you'd have to guess the code

Why would someone want to spoof a “do not port the number” message? It’s 1 to cancel not 1 to approve.

Oh good point, I didn't notice that. But that makes it even worse. It should require a confirmation, not offer a cancellation.

I was confused because that's how it works here.

Even better.

OPT IN not OPT OUT

Ask the person to confirm they wish to proceed and get them to send a pre-arranged code that was given when requesting the port.

We already have RICA which means you need to provide identification and proof of address when buying a SIM card, at least in theory. This is really unnecessary and a violation of basic privacy.

Both systems don't aim to solve the same problem.

All this does is fuel the trade in stolen passports.

In HK, I recently received a message from my prepaid sim provider telling me that I need to link my passport number to my sim card within a year or my phone number with be suspended.

in singapore you can't buy a sim card without an ID for at least a decade, in germany since 2017, and most other EU countries now require an ID too.

https://netzpolitik.org/2017/interaktive-karte-registrierung...

http://umap.openstreetmap.fr/en/map/prepaid-sim-card-registr...

Do these go for the eSIMs you can buy online too?

Nope.

india has had that for quite a few years now without any "uproar" because it is seen as "quick and easy" as compared to filing out paperwork and spending time getting photocopies of documents and having them authenticated and what not

That's only because the government hasn't yet figured out how these tools can really be used to suppress opposition.

Wow ... that's really sad to hear.

Lack of uproar does not mean lack of problem.

At least patwaris are mad?

Why the need for documents and having them authenticated in the first place? Why does the government have a compelling need to track everyone?

I hadn't heard of this.

Doesn't matter. RICA requires you to give a current and valid proof of address and government issued ID when buying a sim card.

Biometrics is unnecessary. Also probably useless, given how often those systems are broken

In Pakistan, we have to provide our National ID card number and a Biometric thumb print to get a SIM, (or do anything basically)

not that it helps, because apparently they caught a gang using silicon thumbs to get sims

https://customstoday.media/fia-arrests-gang-using-fake-silic...

Well, it is kind of stupid that they don't immediately check the thumb print for the SIM card with the print associated with the National ID card.

I don't see a security risk with the Telco sending NIC-number+thumbprint combo and receiving a Yes/No if they match or not.

Pretty much useless uproar because biometrics are already stored in the national ID card.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_identity_card

How to deal with this in case if this happens in any country? All i can think is to use voip over tor? Any other thoughts?

Same in Ghana

It’s interesting that the comment cited links this proposal with communism, UBI, and a global government. I wonder if that comment is representative of most of the objections.

Yeah it was a bit crazy. A lot of people seem to think that South Africa is a "communist" government, which it really isn't. Some of his other comments were also outlandish.

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