People in this thread need to stop projecting their problems and worldviews as universal social issues.
We already had social media at the time (mostly facebook) and yes, I won't deny that there was already something anxious about feeling pressured to always show yourself/self yourself to other. When I look at Instagram today, I feel like it got even worse.
But, as someone still under their 30's, I think we shouldn't also deny what the original commenter said. In the case of Europe (and in my case France), we have seen the come back of extreme conservatism in politics, the slow decay of our public services, the inability for politician to make important decision for the environment, the idea that we will never retire/have a pension (which is not necessarily true but is definitely a strong belief), the imbalance in wealth creeping higher and higher every year, home ownership becoming harder and harder ... Whereas the generation of my parent (those from the 60's-70's) had, in general, a more positive/peaceful outlook on the future, I find that my generation and those younger that me tend to be more skeptical, if not negative.
I really think that the current mental health issues are a combination of multiple factors and that social media is just one (but maybe a big one) of those factor.
French are generally very interested in politics from youngish age, for better or worse (the amount of outright communism supporters there among young anywhere I spoke to is disheartening, especially for somebody like me who went through proper communism and saw first hand how it always fucks up individuals and nations for generations, and consistently fails to deliver on every single promise that looks nice on paper). I attribute this to their naivety, seeing wrong in the world and instinctively going for some direct quick solution, despite proofs that it never worked that way and side effects were nasty.
French and some other southern states have really rich social support, even in decades it will be above-average for western world. So french complaining about it going south need to travel the world a bit and get a reality check.
There is too much information readily available, and humans for some reason tend to focus much more on negative part, as do media. So if already pre-teens are watching gruesome combat footage, hardcore porn, reading about depressing future prospects re climate and environment, demographic curves, terrorism and so on and on... its hard even on grown ups, and not even kids that should be carelessly running outside without a worry in their head. It can be just few in the group/class, but they will easily 'spoil the rest of the basket'.
Most of them just want some kind of regulation which keeps greed in check and allows them to be confident in a future of relationships, family, home ownership and security. Surely the success of games like Animal Crossing, Harvest Moon, Sims and and such would showcase how important this is to individuals.
It has nothing to do with their understanding of capitalism, whatever that is supposed to be.
This is the best description of my homeland I've ever seen. By reading the Italian news one would think the main enemy of the Italian State are young people that are constantly berated, ridiculed and forced to keep hearing how lazy they are.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Italy#/media/F...
No. We are just not naive and we know that all of our social support comes from the WWII aftermath, thanks to communist politics. This implies that we'll probably not have anything more than what we have now and we know it. Most of the french don't want anything more, but we will absolutely fight against every aggression against our social security net because we are really confident that anything we lost is lost basically forever.
This hits the nail on the head and is equally true for Germany btw.
I grew up in social market capitalism in the latter country in the 70s & 80s. TLDR; it works.
And the ironic part is when the people asking to maintain social programs complain too much attention is paid to economic growth - the very source of what pays for those programs.
The truth is as economies stagnate and the demographic shift happens, Western Europe will have no choice but to cut back programs.
You cant maintain the same system when you go from 1 worker and we retired to 1 worker and 2 retired.
Socialist capitalism[1] is mainly about making sure the wealth and opportunity gap between members of a society doesn't become a 'canyon'.
We're talking mainly legislation here.
What you're seemingly talking about is how a government is managing pensions when faced with an aging population?
Quoting Thatcher in this context is hilarious to someone like me who lived & worked in the UK.
There is a reason continental Europeans jokingly often call the that island the 'last 3rd world country in Europe'. ;)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_market_economy
Edit: missing link
The UK would be even less able to afford social programs if the economy had continued on its pre-Thatcher slide down.
And calling the UK third world just shows how laughable the understanding is - try “socialist paradises” like Greece where much of the economy has gone underground because the tax burden is so high in people who can barely make ends meet.
Edit: because even if the economie goes bad there are humans living there that need a certain baseline of living. In the capitalist world there is only taking more debt , cuttings and hope … if that doesnt work.. what then?? Adorno once said that one cant do right in the wrong world. Right can only be done in a right world. Its hard to sustain socialism if its bound to capitalism
This is wrong as in those two decades there were at most 4 years of socialism ("programme commun de la gauche"):
-----------------------------------------------
Party | President ........................| Tenure
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Right | Charles de Gaulle ..........| 8 January 1959 – 28 April 1969
Right | Georges Pompidou ........| 20 June 1969 – 2 April 1974
Right | Valéry Giscard d'Estaing | 27 May 1974 – 21 May 1981
Left ..| François Mitterrand ........| 21 May 1981 – 17 May 1995
(yet soon the number of people out of work topped 2 million, and in March 1983 they drop most socialists policies when they introduced the "austerity turn" and in 1986 Jacques Chirac (Right) was prime minister up to 1995)There is a huge difference between the democratic sovialist movements of the west and the totalarian socialist regime of the east.
Edit: litle other example. In france there is a shitload of free culture sponsored by the state to make it accesible to everyone.
The insanely huge "code du travail" distinguishes between many kind of workers. Depending on your status or the kind of branch you work, you might work 35h/week, 48h/w or 60h/w. In the two later cases exceeding working hours must be compensated at a minimum of 50%, but it can be at suitable times for the employer.
Daily work duration must not be above 10 hours per day but it is permitted to work 12 hours per day if there is a "convention collective", the employer has only to permit a rest time of 50% of exceeding working hours.
For some categories of workers this daily work duration limit legally does not exist at all. For example employees on a flat rate in days (like "cadres"/low level executives) are not subject to this limit.
Fortunately for the Parti Socialiste, service workers, lorry drivers, housekeepers, nannies, etc do not vote much and it is very difficult for them to integrate a union, as most unions (CGT/CFDT/SUD) only protect workers with a contract (roughly half of workers in France).
This is not really a socialist program...
I think it is normal and even desirable for young people to be interested in extremist politics. Communism but also anarchy, dictatorships, etc... Modern day "free market" democracies are really a "least bad" system, there are many things wrong with them, things that communism or why not a ruling king can address. In practice, most people discover soon enough that it doesn't work, but to go to that conclusion, you have to at least consider it, and it is better to do that when you are still young and not involved in actual politics.
Also, being able to consider other systems is a sign of a well functioning free country. If any idea other than "democracy is the best" is being suppressed, then it is not really a democracy.
History books? Let's look at the French Revolution, often credited with so many great things. The period following it is called "the terror", you can't get more explicit. Anyone reading just that part would want to bring back monarchy, and that's actually what happened. But anyways, for many young people, me included, history books are either stuff to memorize for the test, or something that reads like The Lord of the Rings, but with slightly less magic.
It takes some experience to actually understand what's behind history books, and considering "obvious bullshit" as you call it is the kind of experience that get people to better appreciate history books. At least the ones that are not an excuse for propaganda.
I was super active on reddit though from late college until recently. People go back and forth on whether that's social media, but it definitely didn't help me. Short memes about how awful the world is, you could look at 100 an hour and ruminate for 3 more how messed up the world is. Stories of injustice, both real events and creative writing projects, were available by the dozens. Find something you want to be outraged by and join the sub because it feels good to feel irate with other people.
Again, my mental health took a nosedive years before I got on reddit. But having that echo chamber where the world is terrible and we're all getting taken advantage of was definitely not helpful either.
Most of the things are outside my control so I just don't worry about them.
In short: doom scrolling is poison.
"There are people who would hardly agree with you," replied Conway with a smile. "Quite a lot of things have happened in the world since last year, you know."
"Nothing of importance, my dear sir, that could not have been foreseen in 1920, or that will not be better understood in 1940."
"You're not interested, then, in the latest developments of the world crisis?"
"I shall be very deeply interested—in due course."
— James Hilton, Lost Horizon
Now to get off of Reddit and be more judicious with my usage of this site.
UK here, 42 years not dead, and my pension plan in my 20s as I started work after University, and most of my 30s too, was to not live long enough to need a pension¹.
I don't think it was anything I thought about at all as a teenager though, nor that teens (or very early 20s) today have it so much in mind. Those I know are far more concerned about being able to afford housing and other essentials² now, pensions are something they can't really plan for until they have some income left after paying for those things.
[1] in pursuit of that plan I invested heavily in alcohol
[2] food, fuel, ...
Man did footnote [1] make me laugh. I feel like I have not invested enough in that asset class. It's a bittersweet laughter, for various reasons, but still. Thanks for that.
Running shoes sounds like a future investment opportunity I'd like to explore.
I remember my history teacher telling us about it and people saying they knew, and they also knew that they couldn't change it unless boomers were on board, which they weren't at the time, and definitely still in the same position.
Scholz and co. are too self-centered to accept a hit to their economy in exchange for de-clawing the next Hitler. Rutte and co. are too greedy to allow for a deeper union. Macron has a business-friendly "mandate" despite only being elected for not being Le Pen. We are all tired of the largesse of the old and the few.
The same in Italy. It was very disheartening and certainly contributed to our discontent.
>home ownership becoming harder and harder
This is starting to weigh more and more in our life (mine and my age cohort). The average monthly pay in my region is 1200EUR while the average cost of an house is 250000EUR, so 17 years of salary. On the other hand my father bought two houses with a manual laborer stipend and my mother never worked a day in her life and she had four children. I really don't know when (or better, if) I will be out of my house.
Is this the root cause forental health issues? I don't think so. I'd rate climate change, uncertainty and media living of controversial topics and FUD as serious reasons as well. All topped by social pressure. And all of that is drven, enabled and aggrevated by the current social media. We will figure it out, as we figured out mass media before. Maybe we just started figuring it out. Until er do so, we will pay a price.
Would ve interesting to hear what the affected people, teenagers, have to say about all that.
So from a young age students are basically taught to give up their power if not their lives to authorities, to politics. It has to be politics, it can't come from the individual. So they don't care about freedom or personal sovereignty (that's evil), they ask for government, rules, laws and taxes like would seniors. And they call that protection, if not "progress".
I don't blame you, it's hard to stand across a tidal wave, especially when young. But how about standing out a bit from the herd once and think outside of the political box?
> I don't blame you, it's hard to stand across a tidal wave, especially when young. But how about standing out a bit from the herd once and think outside of the political box?
That's a lot of assumption about me from one comment. You don't know me, we never met nor discussed, you should refrain from talking to people that you don't know like that.
> Most schools are run by the government after all, and obviously governments will claim they need more power or society will decay.
This is far from true on many level. Also, the only class that talk about politic, society and such is teached in high school, when most teen already started to develop their own critical thinking, and is very short.
> So from a young age students are basically taught to give up their power if not their lives to authorities, to politics. It has to be politics, it can't come from the individual. So they don't care about freedom or personal sovereignty (that's evil), they ask for government, rules, laws and taxes like would seniors. And they call that protection, if not "progress".
What ?
I had a lot of friends who were anarchist and communist in high school and after. Unions and the french communist party were often coming to the high school giving literature to teens who would accept them. So no, a lot where not "asking for government". That and there was often student protest (blocus, when you block your high school).
And even then, what is wrong about asking, and fighting for, the government to improve ? The political class to improve ? What is your solution ? It's not like the government is going to go away. So what do you want ? Massive privatization ? We saw the result of such policies in many other country. Asking for public services and fighting for them to improve is not "asking the government", it is being involved and being able to think critically. Critical thinking is not about being a libertarian ancap.
You are just acting like a pedantic know-it-all making a lot of assumption about a whole class of people without making any meaningful proposition and insightful criticism.
Teen years are about forming a self image - social media fucks that up in so many ways - it's really next level compared to what my generation had growing up. Glad it was just starting when I was a teenager.
This is happening, based on my own experience. I am 22, I have a safe job with an above average salary but I still cannot find an apartment with my partner. I can’t imagine affording my own place with the current prices, especially not at the age my parents were able to. And all of that concerns are completely ignoring the current price hikes which make everything even worse.
For as long as I can remember teachers and my parents told me that the pension system won’t be able to support my generation. Everybody my age who can afford to does not expect any substantial pension payments and tries to support the own future by own investments (which is pretty hard when you pay +400€/mo into the mandatory public pension)
The situation is even worse for people with lower incomes.
This is not projection. Admittedly, this is my experience. But I know many many people who had similar experiences when they first entered the workforce.
Do you have an above average salary for the region you're looking for the apartment in? If so, then who's getting those apartments, if the majority of people cannot afford them? Is this a special case like SF where there's just not enough apartments being built for the size of population?
Yes, the salary seems to only be part of the issue. Some of the landlords seemed to be slightly offended that a young person makes so much money. Other landlords were searching for long term tenants and did not believe that a young couple was looking to settle down for long enough.
> If so, then who's getting those apartments, if the majority of people cannot afford them?
The supply is super limited. Judging by the rejections I received the landlords are primarily looking for well off young families which the seem to find without a problem. One landlord told me that she received 120 messages within 48h, she basically can choose whoever she wants.
> Is this a special case like SF where there's just not enough apartments being built for the size of population?
This is generally the case all over (west-) Germany. In more rural areas and small towns there is basically no rental market, but purchasing is still unaffordable for most. In my hometown (rural with average income) land prices more than doubled in the last 10 years. So many young people choose to move to the next city. In my target city, the cheapest apartments I could find for purchase were around 400k€ from 70s to 90s, new construction was usually well above 500k. Rental prices are equally absurd.
> “People in this thread need to stop projecting their problems and worldviews as universal social issues.”
But you are doing just the same thing by dismissing peoples perspectives and opinions as irrelevant….
Nope, he is not doing the same.
He basically says "people shouldn't project their own (older age) concerns as universal".
He doesn't say there are no universal social issues.
So dismissing "peoples perspectives and opinions as irrelevant" is perfectly fine, if they are irrelevant to the group they're projected to.
- they must pay 20-30% of their income, over their entire life, for other people's pension,
- they do not get a pension themself,
- the people whose pension they must pay have screwed them on multiple "quality of life" issues
Same for most of my peers.
Social security is very popular among the working classes (especially retired ofc) and deeply unpopular among the upper classes who see it as a tax burden on them that makes their workers lazy.
It doesn’t matter how popular it is , will we actually see it ?
I was just providing my experience that my generation does think about it.
It’s a broken system.
The fear-mongers have been alive and well for 40+ years, have no doubt they will continue to push the fear - its good for news clips and web clicks, if nothing else.
You can go to https://service.destatis.de/bevoelkerungspyramide/index.html... to see the data and projections on this.
An many are just about to have the same.
they should be. Perhaps not worry or be anxious about it, but definitely should know about the financial implications of having to retire one day, and how they could fund that retirement. May be even work on how one might fund an early retirement, etc.
Not thinking about long term financial planning is a failing of the education system (or parents, as it falls onto them when the state fails on policy grounds).
A lot of them will be doing that, yes. They're teenagers until their 20th birthday, and a lot of people start to work between 16 and 20. In Germany, all of them will be paying a lot of their paycheck for the current pensioners.
It's called a generational contract here, and it boils down to current workers paying the current pensions - so when theyre ready for theirs, it will be the responsibility of that workforce to shoulder that burden.
This will fail within the next 20-30 years, realistically speaking and arguably already failed, as current pensioners are often extremely poor.
The parent comment was spot on with their comment wrt Germany, which was the context they explicitly set
If you're worried about that in your youth you're setting yourself up for a boring and depressing life. Youth should be about exploration, taking on challenges and risks, figuring out what you want to do in life - not thinking about what you're going to do past your productive years.
I was actually just talking with a teacher friend about this very thing (he lives in Germany btw). He was essentially expressing his surprise that the high-school students (well Gymnasium technically), were at the age of ~17-19 already planning their whole live in terms of career, money etc.. That is definitely very different to how it was back when I was a teenager, where one essentially started studying what one was interested in, with career paths being somewhat secondary.
So in short, anecdotal evidence is that yes teenagers are already thinking about their pensions now.
> People in this thread need to stop projecting their problems and worldviews as universal social issues.
While this is correct, we should also not project our memory of what it was to be a teenager > 10 years ago, onto todays teenagers.
Being expected to go to a good college, and that being seen as a gateway to decent standard of living is having an effect on kids for sure.
German here. Yes we absolutely fucking did, especially as our parents pushed us from early on to obtain as much education as we could because unlike even in the 80s, manual labor would not be enough to sustain a family or to have a comfortable retirement.
It's a rather big jump from being concerned about one's future (and the society's future) to having mental issues just from that. It's also not very constructive to perpetuate the idea that being careless about the future right way to live one's teenage years.
Young people are definitely extremely aware that they sacrificed a lot over the last two years to protect the elderly and now the elderly are not being asked to contribute back.
This is before you consider climate change, about which young people are generally much more informed and concerned.
Boomers don’t care because it won’t affect them. I know that sounds hyperbolic but I genuinely think it’s true. Those who are aware of the problems focus on helping their immediate descendants.