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Comment by germinalphrase | Hacker News Reader

My entirely anecdotal impression as a high school teacher is that media (in general, often but not always “social” media) is doing an exceptional job of sucking up teenagers’ every waking moment that is not actively demanded to be focused on something else. It’s pleasure without joy. Ennui without boredom.

Their social skills (and social interest) appear markedly reduced even compared to even five years ago. So many of them struggle to articulate any kind of positive vision for themselves/their lives unless they have lucked into a passion or have family that pushes.

They’re still teens. Funny and moody and confused, but their heads really are in their smartphones all the time.

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As a parent of a 10 and 7yo your insight here is absolutely golden.

I worry a lot about my kids getting sucked into that world. Right now we're keeping them well away from social media, and very little and restricted screen time.

Your comment gives me confidence that this is the right approach, but I'm not sure yet how to navigate it as they enter their teenage years and all their friends have phones.

We are leaning them into non-digital pastimes and IRL relationships, which they fortunately enjoy. I hope this momentum can carry them through what I see as the danger years of teenage and early adulthood.

If I could go back and change one thing about my teenagers' educations it would be to homeschool them during the middle school years. They go from ~30 interpersonal relationships in elementary school to upwards of ~150 to ~210 in middle school at a time when they, or their classmates, are beginning adolescence.

Why is that a bad thing?

I'm curious: how do the "weird ones" do? The outsiders, contrarians, the ones who don't quite fit in and who might even take pleasure in not caring about social media?

It's been four years since I graduated high school, but my experience was that even if you were not on a given social media platform, at least one of your friends definitely was. It is very hard to ignore or stop caring about.

They all found each other online :(

Finding the weird people like me online was really good for me!

Me too. But, I'm genX. It sounds likes it's different now.

How is it different?

For one, it's a fractal of the larger environment, rather than a microcosm.

Facebook vs phpBB.

Niche forums still exist, even if waning. The instant message service Discord offers something of the intimacy and organization forums have in a different format. There's more or less the same chances to meet and bond.

Most teens have no idea about this, though. All they know are the big brands, and they don't see the appeal of the cracks and corners.

> I'm curious: how do the "weird ones" do? The outsiders, contrarians, the ones who don't quite fit in and who might even take pleasure in not caring about social media?

Anecdotally, really really well! based on Haidt's watershed of 2009 I'm seeing what's in the pipeline at bachelors and masters level education 10-12 years on. Most of my L6 and L7 are young adults aged around 20-25. They've either had about a decade of exposure to smartphones and social media, or for some reason they have opted out.

There is a very significant difference in their abilities and attitudes. I can almost see it in their eyes in the first tutorial.

Motivation is higher.

Punctuality and commitment are massively better (they turn up to tutorials and don't email me at the last minute with an excuse)

Concentration and listening is better, They are not constantly twitching and looking to their phone.

Emotional range of affect (ability for seriousness and good humour) is higher.

Positive interpersonal skills are better. This isn't an introvert-extrovert thing, it's about focus, openness, body language, eye contact, thoughtfulness of speech, vocabulary. It's just a different experience to meet people who are phone-free.

Even ability to use technology is improved. Counterintuitive maybe. But they seem better at searching, referencing and organising information.

I pretty much breathe a sigh of joy when I see a student has a dumb phone or tells me they "don't do smartphone and social media". I know there's going to be more to work with, and the outcomes are going to be interesting.

The irony is of course, that these "weird ones" would have been us geeks 30 years ago. The same group you'd expect to have a more intense relation to authentic knowledge, curiosity and better academic outcomes.

Things have flipped so that technology overuse is now normative, and the "geeky" thing to do is be moderate, circumspect and sceptical.

>Things have flipped so that technology overuse is now normative, and the "geeky" thing to do is be moderate, circumspect and sceptical.

Hearing this, even anecdotally, makes me sigh with relief. What is your impression of their lives? Do they hang out with each other, or with normies, in RL, or just spend a lot of time alone?

> Do they hang out with each other

No. So that's why it's not a "movement" AFAICS, not unless I'm missing something emerging in youth culture.

As a "weird kid" in the 80s I was delighted to find a Computer Club and discover there were others. But this is something different. You can't really rally around things you all don't do.

Thinking about it now though, I didn't see "geekiness" as an _identity_ at the time. It's like that got imposed ex-post-facto in the late 90s.

Seems a few are outdoors-sporty, things like long distance walking, canoeing, mountain biking and stuff. Maybe a bit "health geeky". One guy is really into astronomy and going up mountains to get better telescope views. But this is pure anecdote. I don't really have an archetype in mind. It's like "really into life, but minus the techno-bullshit and control freakery". One person described it as "slow living", but I haven't got a handle on that yet. There's definitely an anti-corporate element too I'd say.

> spend a lot of time alone?

My guess is that they value their time and attention, and just don't see constant connectivity and "convenience" as that much of a big deal. They're also individualistic and confident, as in not embarrassed to be without a phone, or be the one who does things differently, like holding up a line for an extra 10 seconds by paying cash (and then being the only one who tips the waitress).

I definitely see myself as part of that, whatever it is - but being a 50 something computer guy who spends WAY too much time at the keyboard, it's slightly contradictory.

Come to think of it, a better angle is "last of the normies" in a world gone mad. I think there's a way to celebrate being relatively tech-free as a kind of traditional normality.

Social media isn't just popular kids posting photos on Instagram anymore; it encompasses the entire spectrum of young people now. In my experience with my younger sisters' friends (17-22), the ones that don't fit in with the normal, popular crowd, just bury themselves in a different type of social media.

Twitter and TikTok are still pretty big for the "weird girls". Witch culture, far-left politics, nerdy fandoms, and outsider music all have pretty big communities online, a lot of which are made up of teenage girls or queer-adjacent kids.

The "weird boys" mostly end up on reddit and Discord, as expected. I remember spending time with their group at one point and asking one of the kids what he was doing on his phone all night, he said he was arguing with another reddit mod on Discord about rules for their new sub. This was at a campfire.

The comic book store or DIY concert hall don't exist as watering holes for nerdy Gen-Z. I think there's something profoundly sad about that.

And as a parent I just feel powerless to stop it. A battle just to get modest parental controls on my teen's phone. Serious mental health issues that blow up into full blown crisis explosion when we try to put our foot down about doing homework or some other task. And they're nearing the age at which it starts to be downright creepy to have controls on their personal devices, but they need it more than ever.

And in school kids "using their phones" for work in class, but really, just using their phones. So I can't even lock it down during class time. Sigh.

Luckily the second child (pre-teen boy) shows no interest in phones or social media. Just video games. All. Day. Long.

My son is still young, so enforcing boundaries is much easier (easier as in successful, the emotional disregulation is still there of course).

It’s not easy. Do your best. Try to actively support broadening their experiences with (hopefully) the outcome that they expand their interests. I think the needed thing here is not necessarily teetotaling, but finding something better to do than consuming media all the time.

Well, yes, this is the fundamental problem and why so many of us are really screwed in the post-COVID era: because something better to do was really hard to find, and one of the survival mechanisms for parents was to just let screentime run rampant.

My kids are younger but I'm having issues with them and YouTube. I have YouTube completely blocked on their personal device, but I can't do anything about their school issued Chromebook. In the end I have to completely block the school laptops from the internet at home, otherwise they go from a video about reptiles quickly into toy unboxing, fail video reactions, etc. In the end I have to continuously block and unblock websites and devices so they can do their homework. It's maddening, especially since there is so much educational material on YouTube. It's a losing battle.

That’s pretty horrifying to be honest

Insert Socrates quote here. What adults think they understand about current trends in teenage culture were laughably wrong when I was a teenager, and there's no reason to think the trend has changed.

I'd normally agree, but in this case I think a lot of us in the older generations are realising we're also being affected. I certainly am, it's not just the teenagers.

And this was exactly what the older generation was saying when I was a teenager. There's always a special pleading as to why this time for this issue it's definitely different.

You're implying that this all makes it automatically wrong, but social changes are a real thing, some positive, some negative. The Socrates quote is cute but only goes so far.

In this case, in my life I have concrete examples of the jealously and FOMO invoked by social media (in this case, old school Instagram) from what people are doing literally on the other side of the world. That's a significant change and was much more difficult and far less in real-time in the past. It's not great for my mental health.

Usually I'd agree, and happily ignore this new moral panic the way I've ignored all the others that, as predicted, eventually fizzled out into irrelevance.

It's possible that this time it's different. We mark the adoption of movable type as a watershed in Western civilization, in the sense that it changed how people relate to their churches and their governments as well as how they experienced science, art, and culture. The Internet is a far bigger deal than movable type was. Anyone who says they know exactly what its effects will be on teenagers or on any other demographic or institution is blowing smoke.

My point is that it’s not all kids. I’m also not Socrates shaking my fist at kids being slovenly and disrespectful; I like teenagers and enjoy their passions and interests. I actually enjoy their stupid little dances and social media silliness.

That said, the issue is the all encompassing nature of it. Always on. Less time interacting with peers. Less time in extended thought. Less time even with their own thoughts.

I’ve taught high schoolers in the countryside, the city and the fancy suburbs both pre and post smartphone. The transition feels rapid and noticeable.

How do you differentiate what you are saying versus what people have always said about reading comic books all day, or playing video games all day, watching tv, listening to certain music, spending all your time on the internet, etc?

Life is boring as fuck. It really is. It takes a lot to keep a human captivated.

Life is what you make of it. Personally, since I've become an adult, I couldn't tell you the last time I remember experiencing boredom. And I have deliberately disconnected myself as much as I can. My phone is always on silent mode, and I've turned off notifications for every app except text messaging and calling. I deleted my last social media account a few years ago, and I try to the best of my ability to use my computer and my phone for things that are not mind-numbing, e.g. I don't play mobile games, I don't mindlessly watch youtube videos, etc. I limit my consumption. Even if you spent the entire day sitting in front of a blank wall, there are literally endless things you could think about and explore. You could think about the things in your immediate environment, how they work, how they came to be, how you could improve on them. You could run any number of thought experiments like if we made contact with an alien civilization how would we come to understand each other? You could think about your goals in life and steps to achieving them, explore why you are experiencing problems with certain people and how to resolve them, or just reminisce and be grateful for things you have.

> Even if you spent the entire day sitting in front of a blank wall, there are literally endless things you could think about and explore.

Have you actually tried this? As a Soto Zen practitioner, I can tell you it's definitely not true

>Even if you spent the entire day sitting in front of a blank wall, there are literally endless things you could think about and explore. You could think about the things in your immediate environment, how they work, how they came to be, how you could improve on them. You could run any number of thought experiments like if we made contact with an alien civilization how would we come to understand each other?

I spent 9 days in the hospital a few years ago, mostly unable to move. The boredom was absolutely crippling. I consider myself a fairly scintillating person who enjoys time by himself, but I couldn't go more than a couple hours staring out my window without needing the warm sedation of daytime TV. There are only so many alien civilization thought experiments one can run without needing some external stimuli!

I wouldn’t say doing anything all day is healthy.

But - I would also argue that boredom is not a negative state of mind. Boredom motivates us to think, to dream, to change, to move our bodies, to be creative, to seek connection, to free associate, to let our minds rest, to..., to..., to…

Perhaps, our minds aren’t built to be captivated all day (though the root of the word does feel appropriate to the conversation).

“older generation thinks something different than younger generation”

Except in this case older generation(s) can make/map a realistic delta between past and current such that to make reasonable hypotheses.

Frankly, younger people can make the same hypothesis and test from the obverse...it's not that hard.

Indeed, a story as old as civilization itself. but in this case, it doesn't seem like it is working out very well for their mental health.

Except in this case, I'm pretty sure the smartphone+social media combo is also screwing up the older generations.

Does anyone not have friends or family members who became angrier, darker, or otherwise seem to have lost touch with reality since becoming extremely online?

They probably can't articulate a positive vision because humanity is fucked. That's not social media, that's a fact.

Sounds like media has broken you too. I’m sorry, but we are so far from fucked, the glass is more than half full even

Nope, I don't do media. Only going to get worse.

> Their social skills (and social interest) appear markedly reduced even compared to even five years ago. So many of them struggle to articulate any kind of positive vision for themselves/their lives unless they have lucked into a passion or have family that pushes.

Yikes. How is a lack of positive vision indicative of poor social skills? You can be quite articulate and good at socializing but still suicidal.

Have you ever considered that maybe young people are disillusioned with their surroundings and the people who are older than them? After all - you come on here and complain that they’re socially inept, negative, and mostly unworthy of any attention. Maybe they’re just reflecting back what you feel about them.

>How is a lack of positive vision indicative of poor social skills?

They never said it was. IF they were drawing any connection, it is the opposite direction. Poor social skills and lack of community can lead to feelings of isolation, hopelessness, and depression.

>Have you ever considered that maybe young people are disillusioned with their surroundings and the people who are older than them? After all - you come on here and complain that they’re socially inept, negative, and mostly unworthy of any attention. Maybe they’re just reflecting back what you feel about them.

This is a valid consideration. It is possible that there is a generational divide at play where youth are seen as having nothing valued by older generations in terms of interests and social interactions. This could be a perception, or it could be a reality.

In my life, there are certainly people that I do not share an interests with and do not enjoy their company.

I didn’t intend to link social skills and positive visions. Lazy writing before falling asleep.

As for the accusation, I certainly hope not. I am absolutely one of those type that kills them with kindness and excitement. And, to be clear, I didn’t call them socially inept - I called their social skills are reduced compared to students in the recent past/socially disinterested.

And, I absolutely didn’t call them unworthy of any attention; that’s absurd.

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