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Comment by flappyeagle | Hacker News Reader

The author is describing lifestyle brands. This is a market segment that's as old as time, they are prevalent on Instagram.

He complains about a direct-to-consumer underwear brand costing 10x as much as fruit of the loom. This isn't any different from Ralph Lauren, or Calvin Klein, or any of the legacy players in the segment.

Lifestyle brands have large creative and marketing teams, with production secondary and technical production largely outsourced, sometimes to the manufacturing partners.

This is a well worn business model for product categories in which all the margins have been competed away. Pricing power comes from the emotion of brand alignment.

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Ralph Lauren underwear costs $11 - 18 a pair (directly, probably cheaper on Amazon), less than half the price this new start up is selling for. Apart from maybe Avocado, these companies aren't marketed as lifestyle, just sensible products.

And note its not complaining. I don't care because I don't buy these overpriced products. I'm just commenting on the idea that all the "innovation" in consumer tech is basically just selling the same shit made in China for 10x the price to people who are susceptible to advertising. It's just weird and not the kind of progress I would expect in a dynamic innovative society.

https://www.calvinklein.us/en/underwear

https://www.ralphlauren.com/men-clothing-underwear

That's not the only kind of innovation. There's also innovation in displaying ads, for the same shit made in China for 10x the price.

I challenge you to purchase a product from one or two of these brands and compare it to the Walmart/China version. They are not the same. From my experience, the quality has been better than brands I’d usually get at Nordstrom rack.

You have a lot of faith in these brands. Bombas was founded in 2019 by an MBA grad and a marketing graduate. They have no reputation. These aren't like hand crafted sock makers doing this for decades in Italy. They're advertising companies and they sold you.

As to where they're made its unclear:

> Where are your socks made? We produce our products all over the world, including the US, Taiwan, China, and Peru at the most technical and highest-rated manufacturers.

> We're proud to report that all have passed audits with very strict standards for health, safety, and social compliance.

And to note I have both Bombas and Fruit of the Loom currently in my drawer. The difference is negligible in my opinion. You can ask me in a few years if my Bombas held up, but I can tell you my cheap Walmart brand stuff has held up.

[EDIT] Bombas was founded in 2013, not 2019. 2019 was the date they started selling t-shirts. Point still holds that they don't exactly have a track record compared to a legacy player and I still doubt they'll exist in 20 years

Idk my kid has bombas and Walmart socks and there is a significant difference in quality. Maybe only 2-3x better but still difference is there

In what way is it twice as good? Even if it were somehow objectively twice as good, is it really a good value to pay 12X for something 2X as good?

Yes it is because I can only wear one pair of socks and if he 1x price socks don’t cut it then 10x it is until we get to an acceptable level of comfort. Paying 1x for socks my kid won’t wear provides me 0 value where as paying 10x but having the kid wear them just means that this is how much socks cost.

As to why they are better the toe knit eliminated the seam and hard spot where cheap socks terminate. The fabric wicks moisture better and get material is less abrasive. The knit and fabric all add significant additional cost to the fabrication process. Look up some videos on you tube on how socks are made.

I've had many brands of socks, because I'm so picky.

Some brands are objectively much better, since they support my feet better, have no seams around the toe area that drives me nuts, wears better (my cheaper socks get holes in them in about a year), it breathes better, it reacts to moisture better, it stays up on my ankle better and doesn't slide down, it doesn't twist on my feet because it holds the shape better, and it's cushioned better among other things.

Good socks are exceedingly difficult to find. I'm particular in what I want, something like diabetes socks that breathe and doesn't restrict blood-flow while looking fine to wear with dress shoes. I'd totally pay 3x and buy in bulk.

You are looking for a premium product, fit for purpose. You probably don’t care what the label says. You have a spec and you need something that fits it.

Falke Sensitive

Bombas was founded in 2013. They’ve definitely been around a while at this point.

Is your only assessment of quality based on the founders' degrees? There is no reason to believe that two business guys cannot source high quality socks. When it comes to consumer goods, it is very possible to source all sorts of quality from China.

Whether or not they succeed or their product is "worth it" is another story. I would not assess a company's quality based solely on the founder's degrees or their marketing.

By their price being 10x what I'm currently paying for my goods, they're making the claim that their product is 10x better or will last 10x longer. I find it hard to believe any sock can be 10x better than what I've been wearing for decades. Couple in the fact that this is a startup that consists of mainly MBA types and entire job board is marketing and sales, then that raises a red flag. They're not hiring sock experts, just marketing people.

I have some of the products mentioned in the ad, but some are out of reach (I'm not going to shell out $2,500 for a mattress or $36 for a pair of underwear), so I have to go by my gut. And my gut tells me its BS.

I could be wrong and I'm sure to some people they are 10x better than the alternative and I'm happy for them and the start up that sells them these socks.

I just find it weird that people in these comments are so trusting and loyal to this company that has exceptional PR and somehow dismissive of the brands that they have used their entire lives.

Intrinsic quality isn't linear.

I grew up wearing walmart socks well into college. Bombas are much more comfortable. I don't know that they're worth the price, but they're definitely worth more than the socks I'm used to wearing.

> You have a lot of faith in these brands. Bombas was founded in 2019 by an MBA grad and a marketing graduate. They have no reputation. These aren't like hand crafted sock makers doing this for decades in Italy. They're advertising companies and they sold you.

Usually the story goes:

1. Bob is unhappy with his socks, can't find better quality socks anywhere.

2. Bob creates a company with the sole purpose of creating better socks.

3. Bob find a factory in China and asks them to use the best materials to create the ultimate socks.

4. Bob is super happy with the product and happily pads his advertising materials.

5. Bob finds a customer and places an order with the factory and is shocked at the price.

6. Bob tells factory to do whatever it can to lower price to competitors' levels without compromising quality.

7. Socks turn out shit, because price is too low and no economies of scale because order quantity is low.

8. Bob sells shit socks with original marketing materials and secretly vows to restore the quality in some distant future.

9. Bob sells company to an investor.

> I challenge you to purchase a product from one or two of these brands

Nice try!

I buy uniglo which is a Japanese brand. Underwear made in Vietnam. It’s cheap. Hands down 1000% better than any expensive brand I’ve bought over the years.

They are still usually made in China, possibly by the same factory who makes the Walmart ones. The difference is usually in the compromises that were made to achieve the target margin.

Lol, premium brands and non-premium will often come from the same factory in China.

Source to back up - none! But I do work at a clothing company where we do this and markup is much higher for "premium" - 20x.

There's a difference between Calvin Klein's regular underwear and their premium ones. The premium ones are comparable in price to something like Saxx

> these companies aren't marketed as lifestyle, just sensible products.

Sensible is the lifestyle they are selling. Sensible is the Tech lifestyle.

Er, do you live in a "dynamic innovative society"? If so, are they accepting immigration?

In a dynamic innovative society aspiration brand's can only use the same tired century old tropes about horsemanship like Polo by Ralph Lauren.

not just lifestyle brands. i used to work for a Dell repair/reverse Logistics center. all Dell computer/laptop from design to manufacture is all done by ODM/OEM. Dell doesn't even design the computer/laptop. its all done by ODM/OEM and made in China. Dell essential is one giant sales dept.

there are not much consumer goods that's made in US anymore

I've been noticing that a lot, well-known US brands buying completed products from (usually) China and rebadging and marketing them as original products. I wouldn't have a problem with it if companies could be honest about their products, but marketing demands they retain the perception of originality.

As an example, at least three well-known tool brands sell 20 volt cordless leaf blowers that are nearly identical besides the battery clip, branding, and the color of the plastic shell. As a consumer I would rather just know that they are the same tool so I don't have to waste extra time on research before buying, but the companies need to maintain the perception that their tools are original and different from everyone else's to protect the image of the brand. A lot of US companies seem to be coasting on brand image they built 50 years ago when they were actually doing their own innovating.

For reference: https://www.protoolreviews.com/power-tool-manufacturers-who-...

Thank-you, very informative.

Calvin Kline micromodal underwear is a whole different ballgame than fruit of the loom.

The final price is due to a mix of quality and branding. It’s not just taking the same item and targeting “lifestyle”

It’s not just a matter of targeting a different segment using the same material, the actual product offered usually has to be materially different.

Hershey’s chocolate like candy product vs small batch artisan chocolate or Kraft American cheese product vs actual aged cheddar are not just marketing the same product to different segments.

Here you go Fruit of the Loom Men's Premium Luxe Modal Blend Boxer Briefs https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07GK8XG8L

I do not like polyester especially in areas that can get sweaty. That’s an obvious corners they cut and not premium. I’d need to actually order one to compare texture and seams but hard pass on polyester underwear.

As the Amazon reviewer says: “Not as comfortable as other brands” citing CK among those other brands.

Your product link strongly supports what I was saying, not sure if that was the intention.

> whole different ballgame

What an apt phrase.

I wonder then, is it easier to compete with Fruit of the Loom, or Calvin Klein? I may be willing to pay for a premium product, but only from a brand I know and trust, like (for the sake of argument) Calvin Klein. I'm not willing to take a risk on some new brand I've never of. If I'm buying something cheap, I really don't care about name brands and am more willing to try something new. Maybe I'm in the minority with my spending habits, though...

It's much easier to compete with Calvin Klein. People aren't buying Calvin Klein for quality, they are buying it for the brand. Fashion is a fickle beast, with constant churn and changing tastes, where a young brand with its finger on the pulse can make a name for itself. The purchasers are less price sensitive, which is ideal for small brands who don't have economy of scale and deep supply networks.

On the other hand, Fruit of the Loom competes primarily on price. To stand a chance here you need scale. You'd need to bootstrap massive production capability, source cheap materials and labor, and try to find a way to either sell directly with a razor thin per-customer acquisition cost, or to build up relationships with massive distributers who will further cut your margins.

> He complains about a direct-to-consumer underwear brand costing 10x as much as fruit of the loom. This isn't any different from Ralph Lauren, or Calvin Klein, or any of the legacy players in the segment.

I mean, sure, but

1) Warby Parker glasses are generally cheaper than equivalent Prada frames. They might be more expensive than their online competition (Zenni, GlassesUSA), but the price advantage is unbeatable compared to optometrist's display case.

2) Harry's handles and razors are cheaper than equivalent Gilette's. Both brand now have online and offline presence (Harry's started exclusively online), but once again, it was hard to pass up on the price alone.

Lifestyle branding is aligned with specific emotions about status.

Ralph Lauren brands men who own horses and play polo as aspirational, that doesn't go against tradition.

Lifestyle branding that associates "eco" with status... well that makes the front page of HN.

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