Framework Laptop Wins Two Design Awards | Hacker News Reader

Framework Laptop Wins Two Design Awards

frame.work

130 pointskensai69 comments

Not saying the framework laptop isn't a great laptop, but reddot awards seem like a meaningless pay to win scam. Pay to enter, pay more if you win. Is it really an award if you bought it? For context, there were 70+ laptop models listed as "winners" last year.

Yup, I worked on a device that got a reddot award, and this is exactly how it works. IMHO it's a red flag (pun intended). I wouldn't be surprised if iF was exactly the same.

You're not kidding. It seems like an award mill.

https://www.red-dot.org/search?tx_solr%5Bfilter%5D%5B0%5D=re...

Many of these award-winning laptops are abominations.

In 2021 there were 3 laptops in the "best of the best" category, which is the category where Framework has won: https://www.red-dot.org/search?tx_solr%5Bfilter%5D%5B0%5D=re...

Did you put the right link? I see 3 other laptops listed as winners.

I'm guessing Framework won in 2022 which is not listed yet

$300 pay to play is... not great.

$6000+ pay "if" win is ridiculous.

https://www.red-dot.org/pd/dates-fees

I get that someone has to pay for the system, somehow.

But, just be honest, call it the Red Dot showcase, and let the "credibility" come from showing off the product among products that the designers consider to be peers of each other.

This award could become meaningful if they consistently chose good things, especially if they called really good products really early and where alone in doing so.

You know what else has that cost structure? Colleges diplomas. $100 application, then if you win you pay a lot more.

If that's the case, it's not very different from those "Great Place to Work™" awards.

Or any corporate awards event.

Yea, we're not fans of these types of awards in general, so we apply to only the few that we feel have meaningful competitive categories. In the case of Red Dot, getting a Red Dot award isn't particularly meaningful, but the "Best of the Best" designation is truly a competitive award.

Ah, so just like the mutual fund industry worked (at least in the late '90s).

Framework laptop is certainly cool if you like to change out ports and want to repair your own laptop, but you are currently giving up quite a bit if you choose to get one:

* No AMD offerings, at all. The AMD 5900 processors have been available since EOY 2019 and dominate this 11 series processor on performance/battery life

* No dedicated GPU options, period.

* Even if you stay with intel, the processors are basically 2 revisions behind now.

* Form factor is quite a bit more bulky than its competitors, even considering the fact parts are removable.

* No guarantee of companies longevity for future bios updates / repair parts

* Price is quite a bit more expensive for what you get, compared to its competitors. For instance, This dell will be more powerful, slimmer and cost less ( https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-laptops/xps-13-plus-lap...)

I love the reparability of the framework, but I just cant get around the drawbacks if you choose to go with them. Its not even a issue of money. You cant pay more to match features of other 'non repairable' laptops. You just have to accept a inferior product compared to other options.

Framework owner, here.

I think this is all totally fair. You are getting less laptop for the same price.

I will put a couple of nits here:

> * No dedicated GPU options, period.

It supports thunderbolt, so you can have an eGPU! That said, while eGPUs are pretty cool, they're expensive an inefficient.

> * Form factor is quite a bit more bulky than its competitors, even considering the fact parts are removable.

I would revise "quite a bit" down to "slightly." The Dell XPS is 15.28 mm thick. The Framework is 15.85mm thick. That's 0.57mm. It is on-par with the slimmer ultrabooks out there. I'm totally happy with the form factor.

> * Form factor is quite a bit more bulky than its competitors, even considering the fact parts are removable.

The Dell you link is half a mm thinner. Half a mm hardly seems "quite a bit more bulky".

> * Price is quite a bit more expensive for what you get, compared to its competitors.

The price difference also doesn't seem all that large? It's hard to compare due to the differences, but seems to be up to maybe 10%.

Almost every point is ignoring THE main goal of framework, which is to reduce cost and waste over the LONG TERM.

> No AMD offerings, at all.

Not yet. At $400 or less, you'll be able to upgrade in the future.

> No dedicated GPU options, period.

Not yet. Nothing in the mainboard design precludes a future board with dedicated GPU.

> Even if you stay with intel, the processors are basically 2 revisions behind now.

For now.

> Form factor is quite a bit more bulky than its competitors, even considering the fact parts are removable.

Fair.

> No guarantee of companies longevity for future bios updates / repair parts

Margin and demand is what predicts longevity. Framework has both at the moment and it can only get better going forward. I haven't heard any slow downs to date. If anything, they are planning to expand to ever more markets as soon as they, and they managed to bring down their wait times in the peak of supply chain shortages while demand was on the rise. That is as good a sign as you can see.

> Price is quite a bit more expensive for what you get, compared to its competitors. For instance, This dell will be more powerful, slimmer and cost less

Again, long term cost is what matters. The economies of that remains to be seen.

This. I own a Frame.Work laptop, and unless you're repairing it, it's underwhelming. It's not bad but in retrospect I should have spent the money on a new macbook pro with the good keyboard and nice ports. Because, I mean, how often does a laptop break? My last macbook has gone almost 10 years now with only a screen replacement.

It's also a question of where you want your money to go. Do you want to support Apple, or would you rather support a relatively small independent company that promotes repairability?

I want my cake and eat it too, of course! I'd like framework to be better than Apple!

I think I'm ok with the tradeoff.

From my perspective, besides modularity and repairability and all that, Framework succeeded in doing something that no other laptop manufacturer has succeeded at: it has produced a laptop that fails to do anything that I hate.

Every other laptop manufacturer has something about it that drives me batty or that I just plain don't like:

* pg-up and pg-dn keys immediately to the right of the up arrow / immediately above left and right

* fn-left / fn-right doing something other than home and end

* fn key as the left-most key instead of ctrl

* webcam at the bottom of the screen

* is a mac

* keyboard is not backlit

* only has usb-c ports

* only has one usb-c port

* no headphone jack

* touchscreen monitor

* clips, or otherwise needlessly difficult to open

* 16:9 monitor (I didn't realize how much I hated these until I started using 3:2)

* difficult-to-replace battery

Each of these are small and seemingly insignificant things, but have a profound effect on how annoyed I am when while using the device. That last one is a huge win for me. You can brag all you want about your 16 hour battery runtime, that lasts for what, a month, maybe two? Then a year later you're down to 4 hours. And six months later you're down to an hour.

Somehow the Framework laptop is the only laptop on the market that fails to have any of my laptop pet peeves. This is the first laptop I've had in many years that I don't think "if only..." every time I use it. It's like they made this laptop specifically for me, and I love them for it.

If I had to complain about something, the three things that I wish were different about are:

1. the red background behind the hardware switches on the "disconnected" side of the webcam and microphone (yes, it has a separate hardware switch for the microphone) is not particularly bright and can be difficult to see in dim light.

2. the rubber pads under the laptop aren't as frictiony as I would like, meaning that if you've got it on a tilted surface it may or may not stay put, depending on the angle.

3. the monitor hinges don't have as much friction as I would like, though I wonder if that's just mine. At some point I'll just buy a set of replacement hinges and see if that fixes the problem for me.

Those are the only things I can think of to whine about.

I feel like having this:

> At some point I'll just buy a set of replacement hinges

be such a casual mention is the real point behind the framework laptop. No more tossing devices because some small-but-crucial part of them fails.

Edit: seems that the usb-c ports are in fact thunderbolt-capable, per the responses below, just not certified by Intel (yet). That makes the modules a little more interesting though I still think the current offerings for the cards is very lackluster.

I can only suppose it is getting design awards because it was designed to be modular rather than looking at it from a pure aesthetic point. It looks fine to me, it's almost reaching the perfectly boring laptop aesthetic. This isn't a denigration, I like unbranded simple clothing like uniqlo and the like as well. I personally do not own one, but my impression from the videos I've seen is bifurcated between appreciating the modularity and hating the implementation.

A framework owner might be able to enlighten me on this, but the display bezel being attached by magnets just seems a bit flimsy to me. I like the idea of the different expansion cards, but it does mean that there is no thunderbolt which is a miss for me. The full sized display port expansion card is definitely a win, but the rest seem unremarkable and frankly does the same or less than a usb hub. This could of course change depending on your own inclination to build expansion cards or third party/future first party cards, but right now the offerings aren't exceptional.

I do hope they are making enough money to see a second generation and see just how flexible their current chassis is. The new 12th gen intel chips or a ryzen version would be very welcome to see.

Hi, I own a framework laptop.

* The magnetic bezel works great and I've had no problems with it at all. It's completely secure and you pretty much need to lever it off with your fingernail if you want to change it for a different color, or clean around the edge of your screen. The lid spring is slightly wobbly as others have reported, but not too bad.

* It does have thunderbolt and it works great. I've use mine with a Razer core x for gaming without issue. It also works with my Kensington dock.

Thanks for the clarification! It's good to know that it does support thunderbolt, that does assuage some of my concerns regarding the expansion cards, though it does still make me question why you have something like a single usb type a slot as one of the options.

Do you mean that you'd think it should be a two port type-A module? The modules are just really really small. You might be able to fit two A ports on one but it'd be very tight. Especially since the sides need to be a bit thicker to accommodate the mechanical groove.

It'd be much more possible to physically fit a 2 port usbc module, but of course that comes with all sorts of annoying caveats and/or expensive hardware because properly port multiplying usbc (let alone thunderbolt) seems to be quite difficult.

Yeah, it just seems like a peculiar choice to turn a thunderbolt 4 port into a single type a port. I get that it's modular so you can just swap it out whenever you like, but then again, you can also just carry a dongle with you that has a whole plethora of ports. The expansion card options that exist right now don't really seem to fully utilize it (though I really like the full sized displayport expansion card).

There's certainly a lot of potential for more interesting expansion cards like an hdmi capture card, 10gb ethernet, or perhaps even some older serial ports or vga for compatibility with older equipment. I just hope that they survive to see some more iterations.

> I get that it's modular so you can just swap it out whenever you like, but then again, you can also just carry a dongle with you that has a whole plethora of ports.

I think you're missing a middle ground here, and that's that most people don't really want to carry around a dongle or swap things around all the time. The ability to swap the modules around is more about being able to choose a setup for your own needs that you keep in like 90% of the time, but still have the flexibility to change that over time or for short periods as needed.

Like, I absolutely want a usbc port on either side so I can plug power in either way, and then I also want an hdmi port and a usba port every now and then, so that's my standard setup. I don't really change them out much (in fact, I'm much more likely to rearrange them for the sake of convenience, like swapping the hdmi port and the usb port because that's where the cable I need is).

But that's a unique setup to me, and while I'm sure there are laptops that have a setup roughly like this the last thing I want to be constrained by when buying a laptop is stupid questions about where and how many ports there are.

Meanwhile there are people who just WILL NOT EVER buy a laptop without an sd card reader and that's just a waste of space for me. We both get what we want.

I would probably buy an ethernet port though, and I might swap that back and forth with hdmi depending on what I'm doing that week. That said, narrow profile ethernet is such a mechanical pain in the ass I do not blame anyone for not trying to make it.

I think maybe they could make a model with 6 bays instead of 4, but I assume for this version they were constrained by the thunderbolt controller in the intel chipset they're using.

To me the 'plainness' of the design is a feature, not a bug, because I plan to own the case for a long time and that means I can make it my own however I want. Other laptops are essentially disposable, so there's no point in putting any of your own effort into their aesthetics.

Also, the ports are TB4 ports. I use mine with a TB4 hub.

My understanding is that it does have thunderbolt, on any of the 4 ports. It just doesn't have thunderbolt certification yet.

I think the Framework laptop is awesome and is very unique with some awesome features. I am left with one question, why does the industrial design on every premium laptop look like a MacBook pro? Basically the only premium laptop that looks different is the X1 carbon.

I asked my company to get me one instead of a MacBook after many years on mac. I gotta say in person it feels and looks very different - magnesium, sharper corners, smaller edge radii, more key travel, with the OS (in my case Fedora) rounding it out. Nice!

It's just cargo culting. They're emulating Apple's aesthetic because that's what "everyone wants".

I really loved my previous Mac laptops (still use my 2014 Air) because I got functioning hibernate on lid close (still magical even now), the screen dimmed to ambient light levels, I got a nice sweet spot of Unix and GUI software, they had MagSafe, their track pads are consistently great.

My daily driver is a Dell XPS running Pop and frankly it’s simply not as good.

I’d suggest that it’s not what “everybody wants”, but that people love their Macs and talk about it. And manufacturers are simply trying to copy what they can. Which is only the outside.

That may be part of it, but that "MacBook" look is not particularly bad either. Now as to how much it should have evolved over time vs how much it actually has... that's a different story.

I don't disagree. Certainly the 90s look of black matte plastic with separate hinges and huge bezels around the display looks cheap and low-quality and if I'm honest it's one of the reasons I don't own a System76 machine.

You may like "XPS 13 Plus - Cleaner And Faster Than A MacBook! ": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fPj6mj-M_k

To be honest, that also looks like a MacBook.

Definitely a ripoff. You can see that they stole the idea of a clamshell design with a keyboard above the trackpad. And look at that tastefully centered logo on the back: there's no way any engineer could have come up with that on their own.

lol

Astronaut 1: You mean, all the laptops on the market are just shitty Mac ripoffs?

Astronaut 2: Always were...

Industrial design in the computer industry has been chasing Apple's taillights since forever ago, laptops especially so. Look at 90s laptops: almost all of the tropes associated with a 90s laptop, including the trackpad front and center with the case forming "armrests" on either side, were introduced with Apple's PowerBook series. When Apple showed with the first MacBook Air how thin and light a full-sized laptop could be, Intel countered with "Ultrabooks". And on and on. Basically if you get a laptop, you're either buying Apple or an Apple ripoff. Even Lenovo have incorporated Apple-isms into ThinkPads (mainly the keyboard and thinness).

My guess is that it's cheaper to copy a successful industrial design than to hire your own industrial designer

What other good designs are there?

Why do all phones look the same?

Sometimes, there is one clearly best option.

Awesome that they use a 3:2 display instead of 16:9.

That was my biggest potential concern before getting one. Now that I've been using one for a while I can confidently say: I strongly prefer 3:2, and I will never get another laptop with a 16:9 monitor.

While I like what Framework is doing and I'm glad the product exists, I find it to be a physically unattractive laptop. There's more to design than just aesthetics but I think it gives off cheap mid-2000s netbook vibes.

Happy they're getting recognition and I hope they keep iterating on the design.

Funny, I felt that way about the new Macbook Pros. When they unveiled them at the event, I was laughing my ass off since I was joking with my friends earlier about how funny it would be if they used the old 2007 MBP design. Then the laughing wore off when I saw the notch... different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

The new M1 MBPs look amazing, like the TiBooks of old. I'm not fond of the curved "pretending to be super thin" MacBooks of the generation immediately previous.

To each their own. I would have much preferred a G4 Powerbook look for my money, but design is subjective. There were people out there who would legitimately defend the trashcan Mac Pro at the time.

But isn't that what we got? The only thing that doesn't look like the PowerBook G4 or the first MacBook Pro is the colour of the keyboard (black instead of silver).

Sorry, I meant G3 Powerbook. My retro Macbook knowledge is not very well-maintained. I always just called the G4 the "2007 model", which was decidedly vague.

ahh the notch sensitive cohort.. i never understood the massive focus on removing the notch on smartphones.. it's of trivial significance to millions of ppl I would assume

I prefer a hole-punch camera, for the most part. Or hell, even that weird "reverse notch" thing Lenovo has been toying with where there's a small tab at the top of the display to accommodate a bigger webcam. In any case, I'd like to believe we can live in a world where the most well-funded designers and engineers could find us a way to have our 16:10 notchless cake and eat it, too.

I think it's pretty decent. Certainly better than your average laptop. Paint it in black and it will have a 'thinkpad-like' industrial feel to it.

I'm happy that there is at least one laptop maker putting their dollars and effort into function rather than form.

The organizations behind both of these awards appear to be German. I do wonder if this is purely coincidental (not unlikely with N=2) or if there's some cultural factor at play.

Or is it as simple as there not being too many design awards from varying countries? Genuine question, I don't follow the design space.

I've always said that throwing out a laptop because the battery no longer takes a charge is like selling your car because the tires are bald. This is awesome!

Shipping to Europe was promised before the end of 2021, if I recall.

The design is worthless if I can't get my hands on it.

FWIW, I'm typing this on my framework right now, and I'm in Europe (Netherlands). So it is available in parts of Europe. Don't remember them promising delivery in all of Europe though?

This laptop has a 4:3 display!?

No, 3:2. It's the best ratio for all sorts of scenarios - infinitely better thsn 16:9 and significantly better than 16:10. The Microsoft Surface devices and the Google Pixelbook also feature 3:2 screens.

How is 3:2 'significantly better' than 16:10? It's 15:10 vs 16:10!

To continue this line of thought, would 14:10 be even better than 15:10?

Why do you think 3:2 is better than 4:3?

4:3 laptops become too bulky and too deep. Don't get me wrong, I loved my ancient 1600x1200 Lenovo T60p, but it was a beast to carry around and required tons of lap/table space. 3:2 fits significantly better in a bag/backpack and significantly better on a desk or airline seat back. 3:2 gives significantly more visible space than 16:9 or 16:10 while still being trivial to move my fingers up and tap on something on the screen (unlike 4:3).

Furthermore, 3:2 screens are available at proper useful screen densities. 1080p is too coarse even at 13" (and unusable at 15") while 4k is so dense as to be a waste at anything below 17". 1440p is quite rare. 3:2 screens, on the other hand, come in at usable sizes like 2256x1504 (Framework), 2496x1664 (Surface Laptop 3 15"), and so on - enough DPI to give you beautiful crisp fonts without requiring you to keep shoveling lumps of coal at your GPU to drive your desktop.

Huawei laptops too. Any others?

Acer has a few 3:2 Windows/Chrome laptops

I'm waiting for google to buy it and close it.

why would google buy a laptop company?

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