Hacker News Reader

Comment by mpol | Hacker News Reader

I think the same model gets larger each generation because of marketing reasons. And since all the manufacturers are doing this, no manufacturer can escape from this. At the top of the line models disappear, at the bottom of the line new models get added.

Where it goes wrong is at the bottom of the line. There are now so many safety regulations (I am looking at you, EU), that these cars get heavier and more costly to make. Many manufacturers decide to step out or up their game. 10 years ago, the cheapest model of a manufacturer would maybe be 10 thousand Euro. Now it easily starts at 15 thousand Euro, and it will mostly be a model of some years ago. New models at the low and small end are priced heavier, because of all these safety regulations.

View on HN

> 10 years ago, the cheapest model of a manufacturer would maybe be 10 thousand Euro. Now it easily starts at 15 thousand Euro

True, but with the State incentives to scrap old models, you can buy a FIAT Panda for 8 thousand euros

But the Panda of 2022 is a much better car than the 80s Panda, that costed more than that adjusting for inflation.

Always found it interesting how the small cars grow and then the manufacturer has to slot in a new model at the bottom (eg i can think of the VW Golf and Pluto, VW Tiguan and now Taos).

If you adjust for inflation that’s roughly equivalent price

We are never going to see those really inexpensive sub ten thousand dollar electric cars, are we?

If you adjust for inflation, I bet it will happen. If you're willing to buy used, it already has.

If the battery is easily replaceable (say 20 seconds without leaving the vehicle) you could use small ones for short commutes and drive from station to station (possible recharging on some roads) or (rent) a big battery for long trips.

Other parts could similarly be crappy, have upgrades and the manufacturer could set up a second hand part market. They might even invite even cheaper knock offs.

There was a time you could get an e golf for 10k on super sale

Street legal in the US, probably not. There's always the Changli though, but it's not street legal: https://electrek.co/2021/10/18/cheapest-ev-in-usa/

Eventually we will but it will take a shake-up of the market by an outsider who does not have an existing business based around cars priced at current levels. Electric cars are far less complex than ICE-based vehicles so there is no real reason for them to be more expensive. The current excuse for their high prices is the cost of the battery pack but battery prices have been on a downward trajectory for a long time now. Eventually a newcomer will find the lure of selling an EV for half of the lowest priced competitor too large to ignore and the rest will be history. That newcomer will be derided by the existing sellers and the media which depends on advertising income from those established actors but that attack won't succeed if the increase in price-performance is large enough.

Adjusted for inflation, the cheapest US small car at the start of the 1970s would be about $12,500 today. The average new car today, with similar interior space, is about twice that much money.

> If you adjust for inflation that’s roughly equivalent price

Same inflation-adjusted price is terrible performance. You're talking about the price of mass-produced machinery. That should be going down, like every other industrial product.

I feel there should be more incentive to buy smaller cars - and therefore to make them. We have a bit of this in the “golf cart cars” but we should have more - roads that are limited to smaller vehicles, etc

This seems to work well in Japan with "kei" cars.

Well, it's not like Germany would want to sell more expensive cars or something?! :)

Note that expensive entry level cars compete with the used cars. Plenty of them. Somehow those are still able to drive on the road despite not having all those safety features (and polluting more).

The cheapest Dacia Logan models are still under €10K. But the vast majority of new car buyers prefer to spend more in order to get something larger and nicer.

I think in the USA its even more. A base Chevy Spark starts at $13.6k Mitsubishi Mirage (pretty much junk) starts at $14.6k. Not sure you can even find those bare bones models at dealers. I'm not sure if there are cheaper options but these are bottom of the barrel for sure.

more importantly Logan is 4.4m long, that's hardly a small car, even Sandero with 4.1m is hardly small car

small car is Skoda citigo with 3.5m or Fiat Panda with 3.7m

You can buy a bunch of small cars around or even under 10K€ when accounting the discounts...

Dacia Sandero, Fiat Panda, Mitsubishi Space Star, Renault Clio, the Hyundai i10...

Sandero and Clio with 4.1m are hardly small cars, agree on i10 and Panda with 3.5-3.8m, those are small cars

3.5m Skoda Citigo (aka VW Up) is very popular here in Czechia as company/delivery car

Ah yeah, of course. I've should have known better, being my 98' Polo less than 3.8m IIRC. But this damned current of buying huge SUVs for the city is changing my views. Madrid is full of those ugly cars.

You can see some VW Up! around under the Seat Mii brand, but right know they're a bit expensive, being over 10 or 12K.

Which safety regulations have caused cars to get heavier?

The ones involving hitting obstacles and not crushing the passengers. Bigger and heavier vehicles are at an obvious advantage here, due to longer crumple zones, stronger frames etc.

Airbags, crumple zones in frame. Here’s a whole list of US safety regulations and the weight they added through 2012, https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/8123...

Thanks. The report says that 5% of the weight of new cars can be linked to safety features. So safety features can't be the main reasons cars have gotten heavier.

Off the top of my head, airbags, anti-intrusion beams, ABS, pedestrian protection (the hood has to be higher, which makes the whole car taller), rollover protection (the pillars are much thicker to prevent the roof from collapsing).

They're sensible things, but each adds weight. Most of them scale sub-linearly with vehicle size, so the burden literally weighs heavier on small cars.

I'm really glad that there are "so many" safety regulations on a multi ton high speed device that allows 70 years old/drunk users to handle it.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com