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Random story time:

My dad put above average pressure on me to learn piano as a kid. I got somewhere between decent to quite good but never a prodigy or anything (could read almost any piece of moderately difficult sheet music and play on sight, never really got into writing my own music).

When I was in early high school I made an argument that I wanted to quit and he said it would be up to me but that I would regret it later in life. I ignored him, gave up piano, and now 100% without a doubt wish I could go back in time and stick with it.

Still, I'm grateful I got the opportunity to learn music, as now it's a huge part of my life (tinker on guitar, always on the hunt for new artists to listen to, etc).

I have my own kids now, and it's fun watching them get interested in the instruments we've got around the house, but I'm also trying to figure out how to navigate the right amount of influence I should try and put on them to focus on music themselves.

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>My dad put above average pressure on me to learn piano as a kid.

Family did similar with musical instruments, I wasnt interested, as this was when singles and record players were becoming mainstream as a primary school kid I was doing some of the basics for dj'ing, way before Technic's 1200's/1210's things like beat cancelling by turning the bass down, scratching that sort of stuff, real elementary stuff. It really really annoyed the family, doing all this weird stuff to records and look at how DJ's are festival gods today! I wished I stood up to them more but as a kid thats not possible, so you take the next best option and do some coding because family want a quiet life, dont want kids causing hassle things like that.

Preface: I have a pretty deep musical background; bachelors & masters degrees in flute performance.

I have a 7 yr old. Her kindergarten required either piano or violin, and we opted for piano. At that time, we implemented a daily '5 minutes of piano' mini-lesson where I'd help her with her current lesson/song. We're doing homeschool now, but have kept up the '5 minutes of piano'. My daughter doesn't really like it that much, tbh, but I've made her stick with it because: a) she's actually quite talented -- great pitch/rhythm, and can already play by ear, for example, and I'd like to get her to a point where she can really enjoy that talent, and b) as a general lesson in perseverance/grit/skill mastery.

But I really struggle with the notion that the above is simply a rationalization and that I'm really trying make up for my own failure[1] to achieve my own musical goals vicariously through my daughter. And I've also struggled not to force it too much. I've bent over backwards to make it fun -- I make up games, do a variety of musical/rhythmic activities like drumming, dancing, or even playing pattycake, or do things like watching Fantasia or even listening to pop songs. And I've had to put the brakes on thoughts like "we're going to polish the crap out of this song so we can impress the relatives" and focus more on the overall process: is she having fun? On the other hand, I'm trying to not reward a "this requires some effort so I'm going to quit" type of mindset.

It's definitely been a tough balancing act.

[1] How I used to perceive it -- I no longer feel that I was a "failure" so much as I chose a suboptimal path.

One thing that can make it fun, speaking as a former kid who grew up playing fiddle, is to get to play with other kids and connect with other kids through music. Maybe that's tough with piano, but youth orchestra, band, fiddle circles, all sorts of things offer them the chance to find other people with whom they can make their instrument their own thing, and not just yours. Though there is always a helpful role for parental encouragement in practicing – because damn is that part not fun.

This is definitely a big thing! Having a group of musical friends to play with is a lot of fun, really helps keep them interested, and is the only way to learn how to play music with people. I wish I/my parents put a little more effort into that, because there's a lot of musical "soft skills" that I'd like to be better at. For better or worse, the Irish Trad scene (outside of Ireland at least) is quite focused on drinking beer and playing tunes in pubs late into the night; so that was off limits to me at the time...

> I'm also trying to figure out how to navigate the right amount of influence I should try and put on them to focus on [X]

I think this is something most parents struggle with, myself included. I have a 17-year-old and 14-year-old, and still trying to figure that out.

Thanks for saying this. Our kids are younger but I have to resist the urge to try and force my interests on them, especially as they gravitate toward things that maybe I don't connect with myself.

What I'd like to tell my son when he gets older is that he has to choose something to be putting regular effort into getting better. It can be music or baseball or chess or Overwatch, but he has to spend at least some time every week actively investing in a skill that takes several years to master.

We'll see how that turns out. As a toddler he pretty naturally pushes himself to master skills at his own pace; hopefully that attitude will continue.

I did EXACTLY that. My rule was 1 instrument and 1 sport and couldn't be play cause that he'll do for free.

We started when he was 5 and he's 7 now. So far things have worked out, highs and lows abound. Stick to it, it's worth it.

What do you mean by "couldn't be play"?

I feel like the best way to learn/improve at something is by making it fun. Often times different people find different things fun so if I'm able to have fun doing something that others find to be a chore then I have a natural competitive advantage.

he's got plenty of playtime, but that's not gonna teach him any work ethics. I don't need to MAKE him play xbox for 5 hours during the weekend, he's perfectly capable of doing that on his own.

We'll see what happens when we get there, but I think to me the difference is how much training there is. If he's spending 5 hours just clicking through an RPG where his character gains skills but he doesn't, then yeah, that doesn't count. If he's spending 5 hours doing "micro" exercises for StarCraft 2, playing on the ladder then analyzing his losses / wins, etc -- i.e., if he's actually investing in a skill that takes several years to master -- then that would count for me. Basically, anything you can hire someone to coach you on.

Not sure my wife would agree with that -- we'll see what happens when we get there. :-)

After all, I mostly enjoy my work; if I didn't have a job I'd still be doing a lot of programming. As you say, it's more about gaining discipline, so you can harness that energy into something worthwhile.

No offense but I'm glad my parents were not like you sounds like a lot of pressure to have hobbies your kids don't enjoy.

Those are not hobbies, they are part of his "job". I'm not taking offense, but I'm glad my parents gave me some discipline and I wish they did more of that.

ah okay, well I certainly wouldn't criticize others parenting decisions I just know that for me that wouldn't have worked very well as a kid. My parents just made me work and do chores and music was something I did for fun away from doing my "job".

My parents basically had the same rule, and I couldn't be more grateful. Helped me cultivate focus, dedication, and work ethic in a way that I never would have otherwise, given how easy school was.

On top of that I still get huge enjoyment out of soccer and guitar, and I see many of my peers experiencing regret that they did not take those sorts of hobby type pursuits more seriously as a kid.

My parents encouraged me to have hobbies which I appreciate but they did not force me to play an instrument.

What if they start to enjoy the instrument or the sport to the point that practicing/training/playing becomes play for them?

How do you plan to handle it if his interests change?

Say he first chooses playing an instrument and diligently spends some time every week at it, but then gets into chess and decides that is the skill that he wants to focus on.

My recollection of childhood is that most kids had interests in things that took several years to master, but most never actually mastered any of them because they didn't stick with any particular one long term.

"I wish I had something that I didn't put the work in to get" is a common 'deathbed' regret, much like "I wish I worked less but still got paid the same". I wouldn't read too much into it.

Stated vs Revealed preferences, and all that.

To add complexion to that thought in this context: I was a bit of a problem child and wasn't sent to piano lessons with the other 3 kids in the house. Eventually, I started playing off my own back, just mashing keys really, and after a while my parents said "do you want lessons". Then I started lessons (~12 yo).

I was very fortunate to have the opportunity of a piano in the house (my sisters both had wind instruments too, so I got to try them; I really like clarinet).

I credit piano providing an emotional outlet with saving my sanity, and perhaps my life when I was a depressed teen.

I'm terrible at piano, incidentally, I'm practically arhythmic and every lesson had my teacher saying "relative values".

TL;DR is, I think, that opportunity matters, it's not just I couldn't be bothered to try.

I quit in middle school due to a combination of it feeling like a chore, feeling like it was too "nerdy" during that age, and not really liking the teaching style of the instructor we found after moving. Definitely regret it now; I've since developed some joint issues in my fingers that make it difficult to play, and often wonder if sticking with it would have helped prevent that. Or potentially just made it worse I guess, no way to know really.

W/R/T:

> but I'm also trying to figure out how to navigate the right amount of influence I should try and put on them to focus on music themselves.

Looking back, I've found the best thing that encouraged me and my siblings growing up was the interest and positive support my parents showed towards all of our interests. My mom would always comment on how much she liked hearing me play, even though I'm sure she was as sick of hearing the same song for the 800th time as I was. She was also super interested in the little gadgets I'd hack together when that started peeking my interest even if she didn't understand them at all. My dad made a point of always seeing if I wanted to help work on our cars when the mechanical aspect fascinated me, etc. And of course they remained supportive whenever our interests changed as we got older.

... and not really liking the teaching style of the instructor we found after moving.

I had that same experience in 8th grade. I went from a school with fun instruction to a band teacher that seemed more concerned that your parents signed a practice sheet than in how well you actually played. I think the teacher seriously disliked his job.

I don't regret it, though. I just did choir the next year or two (and again in college). Realistically, though, I always prioritized art over music and still make artwork (am over 40, so its been some time)

>> Definitely regret it now; I've since developed some joint issues in my fingers that make it difficult to play, and often wonder if sticking with it would have helped prevent that

I would not loose any sleep over that. Most music performance is a repeat movement which causes great stress for tendons and it could potentially make it worse. There really isn't anyhthing speciall or natural in playing instrument - its as artificial as typing on keyboard.

And I say this as someone who loves practicing on guitar (and been doing it for at least 15 years without any success really and had my own deal of joint problems). And for last few months I started to take keyboard touch typing seriously which really does not help.

I have a 7yo and I told him there's a very simple rule: he needs to learn an instrument cause it's good for focus, as a practice for doing work and it ends up being fun once you stick to it. He can pick the instrument, or change it if he doesn't like what he picked, but he can't do nothing, that's not an option.

He oscillates from finding it a chore to being really proud of his achievements (he's a drummer for now). It's kinda funny sometimes he does both in the same day.

Overall I'm comfortable with it being mandatory, as a parent my job is to raise him to be a well functioning and happy adult, not to make him happy right here and now, and he gets it.

My children are going to have the same requirement. One of them is the same age. I was raised with he same requirements and I hated it at times. But I am so thankful my parents kept me at it because it’s a huge source of fun, creativity, relaxation and joy to now be able to play like I do. Had I been allowed my own way, I would have quit, but it wasn’t until I was 15 and joined a covers band that I truly started to “get it”. I’m glad others see the benefit and are following a similar path!

Even though I play multiple instruments I have pretty actively avoided even encouraging my kids to play a musical instrument I always felt like the more I pushed them into the less fun it would be for them. Honestly I probably would have gained a high level of resentment around music if my parents forced it on me.

>as a parent my job is to raise him to be a well functioning and happy adult, not to make him happy right here and now //

The job is surely to get both, the balance being the harder part of that. Surely, you want them to enjoy their whole life?

I'd say that teaching kids piano is a mistake. It gets them zero respect as a teenager, so they tend to quit.

You should really look into a string path, like ukulele to guitar once their hands get large enough.

The guitar feels like an instrument that is once again in decline as far as importance in music goes. I might not get them a piano, but a keyboard of some type with a DAW could be a pretty good choice, depending on what music your kid likes.

yeah I'm pretty decent at guitar but nobody really cares they can easily find way better guitar players on Youtube. Honestly if you want respect from others learning to play musical instruments ain't going to get you very far in general.

Indeed, and that's really a bad motivator anyway. Accomplishment is a goal all by itself.

You get plenty of respect from other musicians at least no matter your skill level. Playing guitar with other guitarists or musicians is amazing.

Guitar sales are up 15% in recent years actually:

https://musicstrive.com/guitar-sales-statistics/

Its got the advantage of being a convenient instrument unlike a piano or a keyboard that probably lives in one room for the most part. Its polyphonic so you can feel like you can play an entire song without wanting for a band necessarily. Plus these days there are so many youtubers teaching you how to play every song imaginable, and a lot of software too that helps people learn.

But then they would learn to number their fingers wrong. 1 is the thumb, dang it.

Piano skill is pretty transferrable to other instruments. It has the same advantages as the guitar in that you can play entire chords at once and you don't have to empty your saliva out of it, but I at least think it's easier to get into music theory when you have the white and black keys in front of you.

Pretty hard disagree. You'd be much better off to teach your kids that respect from their peers is fickle and that it matters whether they themselves feel that it is worth their time. Otherwise they'll end up doing anything stupid in order to get their peers to like them which is setting them up for massive problems when their own judgment is all that will keep them safe.

I don't know about that. I knew a guy in high school who threw big, decently wild parties (with more than nerds present), and was also a legitimate piano prodigy. Sometimes after a few drinks he'd sit down at his piano and play something, and every time the house would quickly fall silent and everyone listened. People, even drunken teenagers, respected his obviously great skill, and not just privately.

In general it’s good to just let them do what they want, regardless of instrument. Piano could be appealing if they’re McCartney, Billy Joel, or Elton fans… or even because they saw Taylor Swift play one recently.

I did guitar lessons twice… once at 10 years old on a classical, and stopped after my 8th lesson when I came home crying about how I had no interest in the material and wanted to play on electric with distortion.

Picked it up again at 14 on an electric, learning rock songs I wanted to play. Massive difference, I would often hole up in my room playing 4-5 hours at a time. Still play 30 years later.

sounds familiar, although the only difference for me is that i never choose to quit!

but you too can go back, find a teacher and start learning again!

Sure, to a point. I played violin for about ten years from a wee lad to about 16. Was pretty good and even made first chair at one point, but got bored and stopped.

In my adult life I kinda do regret not keeping up with it and have tried to pick it up more than a couple times. Each time though, it dawns on me just how absurdly time consuming it would be to get back to the point of being even remotely decent. Getting good is a different story and is existentially exhausting!

Saying this as someone who picked up drumming in my adult life with many hundreds of hours of intentional practice. So I'm not shy to continuously improving playing an instrument.

That said, I think if you keep your expectations reasonable, it can be a great experience!

I had a similar 10 year gap with the guitar but you would be surprised at how fast the fingers remember themselves. I'd say in a few months or less I was about where I was before I stopped playing.

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