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Comment by kj1210 | Hacker News Reader

Silicon Valley encompasses many cities in a "region". Here in Detroit, we don't have a name (yet?) to describe the region so we use Detroit to encompass the whole area. Ann Arbor falls within that area. It's roughly a 45 minute drive from Ann Arbor to Detroit...or 35 minutes for me ;)

The Detroit "region" or sometimes known as "Detroit Urban Area" or "Metro Detroit", is actually quite large and has many beautiful communities with in it. This wikipedia page sums it up well. The "region" is actually the 9th most populated urban area in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metro_Detroit

People also forget how large the actual city of Detroit is. If you look at the map linked below, you'll see that Boston, San Fran, and Manhattan all can fit within the city limits of Detroit.

http://markmaynard.com/?p=56

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  > It's roughly a 45 minute drive from Ann Arbor to
  > Detroit...or 35 minutes for me ;)

But:

1. It's in a different county.

2. You're not really accounting for traffic, though my experiences were during the early 00's.

3. Ann Arbor was a completely different vibe than Detroit, or even a number of the suburbs.

4. Ann Arbor really isn't a suburb of Detroit. If you drive from Detroit to Ann Arbor, the suburbs give way to farmland before you all of the sudden end up in the Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti area.

True. Anyone knows that if there's farmland in-between, startups can't be on a list together.

SF and the valley (or san jose as well) are often used interchangeably, yet: 1. They're in different counties (heck..the valley is even spread over multiple counties). 2. San Jose to SF is often over an hour (with traffic) 3. SF, Valley, San jose have very different vibes 4. Is Palo Alto (for example) a suburb of Fan Francisco or of San Jose?

What I'm trying to show is that it's typically called the "detroit area" for simplicity's sake. Just like "the valley" or "sf area" is often used to encompass SF to San Jose (and the east bay as well). It's more of a moniker for the region.

> we don't have a name (yet?) to describe the region

At the risk of being a bit facile, "an armpit" is what I get when reading about it. No mountains, humid summers, frigid winters, decline and decay in abundance. It's about the last place in the US I'd want to live, I think.

More than a few startups, I'm afraid the whole area needs to work a bit on its 'brand'. How many people from younger generations pretty much immediately think of the rusting industrial husks and other fairly negative things when they hear 'Detroit'? My inclination is that this would most likely happen by being so cheap that people can move in, get lots of space for not much money, and do creative things with it.

BTW, "San Fran" isn't a very current term for San Francisco.

The last place for you might be the first place for someone else.

DC has humid summers, frigid winters, insane traffic, crime and prostitution, and a host of other things that are wrong with it... but it's still a place that many people want to go. There are national monuments, museums, cultural diversity, great food, great music, and it is the political center of the nation (world?).

I can't speak for Detroit, as I haven't been there, but that's also why I'm not discounting it.

I've found in my life that discounting things superficially has kept me from enjoying life as much as I could have. When I make it an effort to be more open-minded, I find it usually pays off.

All that aside, how in the world is "San Fran" outdated? What are its more modern counterparts?

I'm not being superficial, I'm talking about things that count for me. It sounds like a dreadful place, given what I enjoy in terms of climate/geography. You're correct that I would not enjoy DC's climate much either, but being the capitol gives it certain privileges that Detroit does not enjoy in terms of a destination and place to do certain kinds of business.

And I don't think you can dispute the fact that Detroit's "brand" is quite tarnished, no matter how much you click the down arrow.

> All that aside, how in the world is "San Fran" outdated? What are its more modern counterparts?

It makes you sound like someone from far, far out of town. People there call it "the city", which is sort of egotistical in its own way. I would just say "San Francisco".

You think the rest of the world should call your city, "the city"?? I love the Bay Area, but that's just short-sighted and arrogant.

The rest of the world can call it "San Francisco." If you're looking for a short form, SF ("ess eff") is acceptable.

I think I'll stick with San Fran. If you guys want to be snobby about it, you're more than welcome to.

Out of curiosity, do you also call California "Cali"?

Personally, no. But I'm also not the hipster sort that turns my nose up at people who use terms generally accepted to be in the common vernacular either, or worrying about how "last week" something is.

That's just me though.

I think a more apt comparison might be "Californy" or "Californ i a".

It's not my city, I'm just explaining what people call it. Indeed, I think that "the city" is a bit self-centered, as I wrote above.

Firstly, I haven't downvoted any of the comments in this thread, including yours.

2) It would seem odd for me to refer to San Fran as 'the city' from outside of the city, since, for me, 'the city' likely refers to either DC or Baltimore, depending on which I'm nearer to at the time.

San Fran might identify the person as being from out of town, but generally, that's exactly the type of person you'd expect to be saying something like that. Doesn't make it outdated in my view. If, perhaps, it is not in trend, that doesn't make it unmodern.

As for the brand of Detroit, admittedly, there's a lot of bad press about it from the outside. I'd argue that efforts like GrowDetroit are exactly designed to combat.

Lastly, the point I was making about DC is that yeah, it's a crappy place on paper, but it has benefits. Detroit might also seem like a crappy place on paper, but might also have its own set of unique benefits and luxuries even. As you mentioned, the low rent is a great advantage for a startup. As I understand it, there are plenty of areas in Detroit that are safe to be in at night.

Again, I can't really speak for it, having not been there, I'm just suggesting that perhaps you shouldn't dismiss it out of hand so quickly. Of course, it's your life, and I'm being pushy by suggesting you do other than your natural intention.

"San Fran" is what people who aren't from San Francisco call San Francisco.

Hows this for a brand. We are hard working and dedicated and if you cant hack the flat mountainless humid summers and frigid winters, you can sit your sissy ass somewhere else. What we do have is a greasy, leather-palmed commitment to revitalization and a group of people you would be crazy to call 'soft.' architecturally we are a powerhouse. You see decay and and decline in abundance we see the freedom of a city that has hit a bottom and is willing to support anything to climb back up to the top. We have a lot of people with your attitude living here currently, and I offer them all $100 subsidy for their moving vans.

You are certainly right about the space though. Think about having an internet startup that sells its G&S anywhere in the world, why spend $1800 on an apartment elsewhere when you can spend half that and live in a creative urban area, and spend the other half on travel, or your startup.

Lastly, and the most important thing we have going for us, is momentum. We get a fair amount of comments like this, but we used to get a fair amount more. This place is nothing like it was 2 years ago and has changed even more drastically over the past 5 years.

[sarcasm]if you want to strike tech gold and buy $1000 sunglasses and flirt with plastic blondes and surf duuuude then head out west,[/sarcasm] but if you want agency - if you want to affect change, and be part of a movement, if you want to influence a renaissance then send me a message and I will be more than happy to subsidize your plane ticket here to help me count cranes.

If you want "manly weather", I think Alaska or Montana have more going for them, along with pretty much all of the West with or without good weather. Growing up in Oregon though, at a certain point I realized I could either spend my life being 'tough' about the weather, or actually enjoying it someplace where it doesn't suck. Making fun of Californians for being "sissies", as you put it, about the rain only goes so far in lessening it's disagreeableness.

It sounds like you're doing good work, which is admirable, but it seems as if you're fighting two battles - one to make your startup work, and one to make the place work. Fighting on two fronts is rarely a good idea.

David, with due respect. You're sounding a bit hypocritical here. You make reference to Detroit as an "Armpit" when, in the same sentence you make reference to only "reading about it". Congratulations on becoming a sucker to the media stereotype.

As for brand? We are working on it. Not through what is outwardly projected, but by focusing on building great companies with products and services that fulfill our clients needs. As we, the greater Detroit community become more successful, the media will change their tune... and you'll get your "better brand".

Until then, we dont really care to pay a whole lot of credence to what the "Arm Chair Experts" have to say about Detroit and the surrounding area, because they couldn't be more wrong.

"David, with due respect. You're sounding a bit hypocritical here. You make reference to Detroit as an "Armpit" when, in the same sentence you make reference to only "reading about it". Congratulations on becoming a sucker to the media stereotype."

I lived 10 miles from Detroit for 20+ years. It's not a stereotype, it really is an armpit. Did you know that there are no grocery stores in the city? This is mostly because they got robbed so many times.

Downtown near the casino is probably the only place you can go safely. The problem is that if you venture even a few miles out of your way, it's dangerous. I know at least three people that got carjacked in the past year in Detroit..and all were just returning to their cars in a parking structure.

"Until then, we dont really care to pay a whole lot of credence to what the "Arm Chair Experts" have to say about Detroit and the surrounding area, because they couldn't be more wrong."

I know Detroit and the surrounding area. They aren't wrong. This isn't a recent thing either. Detroit has had rapidly increasing crime rates since the 70s. I wish it was a better city, like Chicago or New York, but it just isn't. It's sad.

Aside from the liberal government doing things like cutting 20% of the police force and investing in a $500,000 art installation, Ann Arbor isn't a bad city for your startup.

> Did you know that there are no grocery stores in the city?

Did you know that's not true, at all? There are quite a few grocery stores in Detroit. It's not a "food desert" like the media would tell you.

Stop believing lies and anecdotal evidence and your failed assumptions from living far away from the city itself.

Did you know that downtown Detroit proper has a lower crime rate than basically every other major city in the US?

There are no main chain grocery stores (like Meijer) in Detroit proper. So I guess there are some grocery stores, but not quality ones.

"Stop believing lies and anecdotal evidence and your failed assumptions from living far away from the city itself."

These aren't assumptions. By continuing to deny the problems with Detroit, it will never get better.

This is exactly what has been happening for years. The population continued to deny that Kwame was nothing but a corrupt thug and the city suffered as a result (in crime and people leaving).

"Did you know that downtown Detroit proper has a lower crime rate than basically every other major city in the US?"

Like I said, right downtown is fine. You go even a mile outside the main strip, and it's worse than almost any city in the US. I know, I've been there many times in the last year.

You can't safely live and work in a city like this.

Rick, I'm in Detroit regularly, and the worst thing that's ever happened is a homeless person asked me for my change.

You are right that a mile, let alone a few blocks out can be sketchy in spots... but if you've got half a brain, you dont go there. In recognition of some awesome clean up efforts, parts of the Cass Corridor, which used to be the nearest thing to No-Man's land is cleaned up, and awesome. In fact, I spent a day down there with friends and family over the summer.

As for doing business in downtown, it's honestly been a joy for me. I look forward to going to Detroit. The city has awesome character and I'd like to be a part of the resurgence. Is it going to happen overnight, NO. Are efforts in place to make it an exemplar city, you bet. I'll close by saying Rome wasn't (re)built in a day.

"So I guess there are some grocery stores, but not quality ones." I disagree. Check out (next time you're in the city) honeybee. It's an _awesome_ grocery store. After that I've been to a variety of the mercados as well as some of the more common spartan stores (not my faves...i'd make the drive for honeybee most of the time if i needed stuff...but it's a fairly large chain).

Also, there's eastern market, which is pretty nice (although I'm pretty partial to the farmer's markets in chicago these days).

"You can't safely live and work in a city like this." YOU can't, but i sure can. I've lived and worked near a variety of projects in other cities as well. It's a city. There are bad elements... like any other city. If you got mugged in NYC would you say you can't safely live and work in a city like NYC? Of course not. That's not to say detroit is for you. Some people can handle environments like that. Others can't. It's cool. I would have a horrible time dealing with living and working in Haiti (i would think), but I have friends who deal with it just fine.

rick888, I never said anything to the extent that Detroit is perfect, it's far from it (I think you'd agree with most of my original post, in fact- http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=3120392). But, like any other time that Detroit is mentioned, everyone instantly becomes an expert.

In your case, I'd like to ask, where are you now and how long has it been since you've been to Detroit proper.

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