Ask HN: Is it improper to invite ex-coworkers to join your startup?

I think you created this problem for yourself starting with your 'polite note'. How would you feel about a polite note from a friend saying that he is now going out with the same girl who dumped you yesterday?

I think you need to think through things before acting on your nice-guy impulses. You have definitely ruined your relationship with your ex-boss for no good reason.

At this point you want to keep your guy and not have your former boss sue you over it (even if you have a strong case he will make you sink money in legal costs, so avoid court if you can). You can do this by convincing your former boss that your new guy did not know about his options until after he quit. Don't get into a wrestling match with him, even if you are right.

Good luck!

I 100% agree with the first part of this, sending the note was a mistake even if the intentions were good. As far as the second part goes, I think the guy should just cut off contact with the old boss completely at this point. The damage is done, continued contact is likely to do more damage than good.

If he sues you, he sues you, but contacting him proactively or in response to anything other than a formal legal setting should just be avoided.

How would you feel about a polite note from a friend saying that he is now going out with the same girl who dumped you yesterday?

Possibly even before they've broken up.

Since he was quitting anyway, if anything, the only thing you did "wrong" was send the FYI. Seems potentially gauche, like, er, sending a note to a chum saying "I'm banging your ex"?*

I do not have a company and have never been in this situation. But that's kind of what it sounds like to me.

* WRT other comments made here, I will add that timing and delivery make a big difference. It's not just what you do, but how and when.

Fuck ethics between employers about this issue. Poaching is a great thing for employees. If you successfully poach someone it's normally because they were being underpaid and/or wanted to leave anyway on account of their job sucking. It benefits your company, it benefits the employee you poached, and it generally benefits the remaining employees of the company you poached from. It only hurts the stakeholders of the company you poached from.

Take pride in poaching, it's a net gain for society. However, try not to poach too many employees from the same company or you might really screw them (and their employees) over.

From the tone of your post (e.g. "Fuck ethics between employers about this issue."), I'm going to guess you haven't been an employer before?

So I'm kinda confused...

You shouldn't be. Here's what happened:

You thought your ex-boss wasn't an asshole. You were wrong and you found out the hard way. Now that you're in business, sad to say that it's probably not the last time that will happen.

You were a gentleman and he was a jerk. Please don't let this experience keep you from being a gentleman in future business dealings.

I would not cancel the offer. Carry on.

Best wishes to you both. Keep us posted.

I agree with the overall sentiment here, but in this case I'd rather the departing employee be the gentleman and give me a heads-up, instead of his future employer.

This is not a problem with "non-compete" per se, but with use of confidential/proprietary information such as who's employed, what's the org chart. You have a much better case if the ex-colleague publicly shares his contact information, say on Facebook or Twitter or LinkedIn. Otherwise, your ex-boss could make the argument that you "stole" or misappropriate company confidential information. Yes it could be a very weak case but I have seen such threats being made. The etiquette is to not actively seek ex-coworkers for say at least one year. On the other hand, if you drop hints and the ex-coworker initiated the conversation about joining you, then you're fine. That's my take (not a lawyer).

Like the other commenter said, you did a dis-service to yourself by notifying your ex-boss, especially given your wording (face-palm).

No, it is not improper to invite ex-coworkers, however emailing your old boss may not have been the best of moves. Should have let him find out over LinkedIn or some other method.

I think it depends on the nature of the relationships. If your startup, for example, is taking on your old company head on, then you may want take this approach. But, and we do this regularly when hiring from past companies or partners, call their boss and make sure it doesn't damage the relationship. You wouldnt want to harm future business with them.

Agreed.

You're not doing anything wrong, legally or ethically. People are adults and can make their own career decisions. Besides, if you can get someone great on your team and save them from an awful job, you're doing something good. Just don't send any more notes to your ex-boss.

Not at all. Your previous employer is probably just beginning to see that he will be the last one left on a sinking ship.

Indeed. The boss said that his staff "should not know they have a choice to work for YOU when they quit my company!" If the only way he has of holding on to his employees is to try to keep them from learning about other job opportunities, then he's playing a losing game.

I'd format that quote nicely, frame it, and hang it on the wall of my office :-).

Short answer: no, it isn't improper.

Longer answer: it's case by case, depending on the relationships of the individuals involved. Formally, you don't owe your ex-employer anything, and unless you've explicitly signed an agreement that you're breaking, there are no worries. Of course, it's probably more complicated than that, so use the old put-yourself-in-the-other's-shoes principle. Do you feel like the way you're approaching it is wrong?

As you've explained it, the guy quit and your ex-boss is childish. You're all grownups and are free to make decisions. No point putting yourself out to protect someone who likely doesn't care about you or your business.

The short:

You don't owe him anything, he doesn't owe anything to you. Carry on.

--

The long:

In business, there is no loyalty, only favor which can be earned over time and courtesy, but it's definitely both ways and can be lost in an in instant anyways.

Your former employer lives, like many entrepreneurs in their own reality.

In hindsight, what would a heads up possibly help your ex-employer with? What would a blessing with your ex-employer possibly do?

Most employers hate losing good employees, especially when they have little to no systemization or documentation. They can take that (incorrectly) as a threat to their business.

Would your former employer ask you for permission to lay you off or fire you?

If your'e in the US, you probably fall under at will employment, meaning anyone can be hired, can quit, or be fired, at any time, for any reason anyways. I doubt he'd extend the courtesy to anyone.

It doesn't sound like you were actively recruiting or poaching. It doesn't sound like you're competing with your former employer, except maybe with a more enjoyable work environment. Even if you might have been there's no agreement in place.

Being a good person in business is hard, and important to keep. There is no shortage of losers who will try to break you and make you into a jerk. Being too nice and inviting people to lash out can be avoided by not feeding the monster. Live and learn, it's okay. You have nothing to feel guilty for.

Some employers do have clauses in their employment contracts saying that you cannot invite your former co-workers to leave and come work with/for you for a certain amount of time after you leave. However, it sounds like your employer didn't do that

But as numerous people have said, you probably shouldn't have sent the mail you did, and certainly not in the form you did.

Some employers do have clauses in their employment contracts saying that you cannot invite your former co-workers to leave and come work with/for you for a certain amount of time after you leave.

Yes, but depending on the state you live in (eg Cali) that isn't legal and thus unenforceable.

(you need to check your local state laws, or country law if outside of USA)

In Silicon Valley, you don't have to "invite your former co-workers to leave and come work with/for you."

When you leave, they will contact you on their own to find out what you're up to.

Ben,

My understanding is you are wrong -- while noncompetes are invalid in California, non solicitation agreements are enforceable or at least enough of a grey area that you really don't want to get in a pissing match with a company with in-house counsel. Not to mention the valley is really small.

Maybe a proper lawyer could clarify?

I've never presented myself as a "proper" lawyer or improper lawyer :)

The problem with "pissing matches" with in-house counsel is that they can happen even when you're 100% in the legal right. Anyone can send you a C&D and threaten you to court over anything - whether they are legally correct is another matter.

Justice only exists if you can afford to stand for it with your time and money.

IANAL but I did find http://www.jacksonlewis.com/resources.php?NewsID=1465 reporting that Edwards v. Arthur Andersen LLP "holds that nonsolicitation agreements are per se unenforceable unless they relate to the sale of a business".

No, it's perfectly fine.

If you're doing a startup you're in a competitive environment where you need to do whatever you can to get the best people aboard. People are what make or break startups. You're committed to your startup, not your former employer - rest assured that he if he is any good at what he does he would have done the same thing.

And good luck with your new venture :-)

Always ask yourself before you send an email, what are you hoping to do with the email? Get something out of someone? Maintain or build a relationship? Make that person feel bad? Gloat?

In this case it sounds like you had no purpose at all... Just "being nice". It was probably interpreted as "you are trying to make me feel bad" by your ex-boss. Note I did not say MISINTERPRETED, because that implies it is his fault. It is not, it is up to you to control how you appear and everything surrounding that messaging.

You learned a hard lesson here, you lost a potential future ally. Shrug, learn the lesson and move on.

And finally, it ie never improper to offer ex-coworkers jobs, just be aware of: - legal obligations wrt non-compete, and IP. it might be wise to honor an non-compete even if it isnt legally enforceable. Don't like non-competes? dont sign them. - relationship status and feeling. how will the other side feel?

I wouldn't have sent the letter. The old boss knows you are testing the waters and he is giving you what you asked for. I would probably hire the guy and not contact the old boss under any circumstance, expect if he sues you.

And especially not if he opens suit -- as all communication would then go via your lawyer.

It depends. As long as they freely choose to leave and then you hook up, that's just fine. If you poach then you're setting yourself up for being poached in return.

Keep the high ground and you'll do just great.

One of my co-founders was a guy that I worked with for years and I only approached him after he left the company that he was working with, afterwards of course we got a lot of flak but I could easily prove that I had not approached him until after he quit and that was that.

Of course legally you're on solid ground either way, but it's a small world and word does get around so it is better to play it safe and clean rather than legal.

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When you work somewhere it is understood that you will not recruit amongst your colleagues.

You may not like that but it is to everybody's mutual advancement that this is the way it is.

I'm saying that as a one-time employee and one time business owner.

Poaching and recruitment are not the same thing. Poaching is recruiting from a business that you have a beneficial relationship with.

The OP has also burned the bridges for the guy he intends to employ and that was less than classy.

I repectfully disagree. I would expect an employer to take that stance. IMO, it's a little like DeBeers telling you how many months salary you should spend on an engagement ring. :-)

Employees aren't chattle; they are independant agents who have learned that their employers won't hesitate to lay them off when it is advantagous for the business to do so.

Nobody can "steal" an employee away who wants to be there and/or is being paid what he's worth in the marketplace. If an employer wants to keep his employees he can treat them right or not be surprised if they leave to work for someone else who will.

On the contrary, former colleagues are just the sort of battle tested people you want working with you.

OMG...I would never notify the ex-boss. First of all, it's not your position to do charity work. Notifying the ex-boss is. Then, you're putting your coworker in an unfavorable position because you don't know that he's truly going to accept your offer. If he accepts the offer and retracts it, how do you think it'd make him look to his employer? and it's not your position to tell his boss that!!

It is a free economy, you can make offers to anyone you want. To say you can't is to denounce capitalism itself, isn't it?

It's not wrong to approach former co-workers for a new venture. With that said, reaching out to the former employer and giving them a heads up can and usually will cause issues whether you meant for them or not.

Let's put it this way, you have an employee who is now pretty much integrated into your business, and there might be a bit of trouble at work or things are going through a rough patch, and he is unhappy. You'd probably be unhappy if an ex-employee offered him a job, and took him away, when you thought you might be able to do something to fix up the relationship.

Just be mindful of this in the future. Karma can be a bitch.

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Why'd you notify your ex-boss? That was a dumb move. What did you hope to accomplish?

Is it okay to bring ex-coworkers to your startup? Yes, but as long as you tell the absolute truth. Don't lie to them and don't sugar-coat, and make sure you're operating in their interests, not yours.

Extending an offer is not the same thing as "poaching". You're not doing anything unethical as long as you don't lie about your company, its prospects, or your friend's role in it.

Remember though that your job (ethically speaking) is not to sell the position to your friend. It's to extend another option so your friend can make the best decision for him (which may or may not be to join you).

Extending an offer is not the same thing as "poaching".

Honest question: what's the difference? What would constitute poaching in this situation?

Well, the technical definition of "poaching" is illicit hunting.

Misrepresenting the company's prospects (e.g. revenue, runway, VC situation) and the person's role in the company (e.g. claiming he'll be doing more challenging work or have a more important job that he'll actually have) would be unethical. Extending an option to someone with full disclosure is not considered unethical by any interpretation I'd consider.

That said, people use "poaching" in job searching more casually, so I guess we're debating terminology on this one.

I think poaching would be making an offer that was forbidden - or that you had signed an agreement to not do. In this case, as presented, there is no such violation. (right to work state, any non-compete agreement had expired, etc).

A losing manager might call it poaching anyways because they wanted to retain the worker - but that would just be hot air.

Actually, I would argue that an existing non-compete is a great reason (morally speaking, ignoring pragmatic concerns) to hire someone. Bad rules should be not bent but broken into little pieces.