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Comment by vmception | Hacker News Reader

> Investigative journalist Scott Stedman … said Broeksmit “supplied me and other journalists with Deutsche Bank documents that highlighted the bank’s deep Russia connections. It is very sad. I don’t suspect foul play. Val struggled with drugs on and off. Waiting on further info.”

Stay away from sources of fentanyl folks

Anybody 45 and under randomly dying these days is most likely from exposure to fentanyl. Doesnt matter what other stuff theyre up to, how much you respect them or if would find it “disrespectful” to say they used certain drugs. Most people arent intentionally using it.

https://www.abc12.com/news/fentanyl-number-one-cause-of-deat...

Anyway just a PSA. Curious about the toxicology report just like everyone else in the article said, but understanding how it occurs lets you read between the … lines... even when the report comes out.

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> * Anybody 45 and under randomly dying these days is most likely from exposure to fentanyl.*

This might be applicable in some places (particularly in the USA) where the opioid crisis is in full swing, but it’s a very rare event outside those locations.

Sure, for anybody else that didn't connect that this was a US death in a US city and my corroborating source was from a US news publication citing a US government agency with US data that specifically counted US deaths, you can rest easy now.

In all seriousness, it is interesting to think about the idea that the supply chain pollution is primarily affecting US, sounds like we can still go wild in Europe.

I think some room for interpretation exists. This is Deutsche Bank after all, a German bank. For all I knew it could have been an Austrian whistleblower

there’s an article above the comment section

Supply chain pollution is affection everyone, but fentanyl is really not a thing outside of US, which is what the top comment was warning about.

This isn’t true. Canada has a far larger fentanyl problem (as a proportion of the drugs used, not in gross consumption) - particularly in BC.

Yeah Vancouver authority is just giving out free drugs now because the government supply is clean.

A solution.

Maybe we should say North America has the problem? Not sure

Don't go wild on opiates anywhere, it's one of the harder manageable addictions.

> it's one of the harder manageable addictions

Harder manageable, or harder to manage? I'm not sure if there should be a difference in how I interpret those, but there is.

sorry, harder to manage. Not a native speaker.

Yeah, but you have to concede that "anybody" means anybody. You can't go around changing the meaning of words and expecting people to just grok it and then act all smug when people don't. That affirmation about the fentanyl will sound weird for the major part of "anybodies" around the world.

Alright, sure its a valid perspective

"anybody" doesn't always mean "anybody". There's often context.

In fact “anybody” virtually never means “everybody” and it’s almost always a cheap shot to shut down a comment or a statement with a pithy counter-point to “disprove” anybody.

Basically you can’t safely use the word in the vernacular and expect to have a productive discussion, which is unfortunate. Because we all know what was meant.

Wouldn't randomly dying under the age of 45 be a rare event anyway?

I would think car accidents would be the leading cause, unless they don't count as random.

> Curious about the toxicology report

The report alone wouldn't be sufficient proof either. You can murder someone with fentanyl.

Agreed, and the toxicology report can come back with the presence of a recreational drug that is out of character for their use, masking the reality that they thought they were taking a different drug to begin with, while all options could have been tainted with fentanyl

Or nothing at all.

Or there was foul play.

Or there was foul play without the use of drugs.

Or fentanyl use was intentional.

Hoping to rule somethings out!

This is why autopsies are a thing. The LA County Coroner is one of the biggest in the nation and their forensic pathologists have written a number of textbooks on various subtopics. Generally speaking, forensic pathologists follow a standard process specifically to make sure they avoid missing things. That said, drugs on board has a high rate of being classified as an accident. Not suicide unless they left a note; not homicide unless there’s a suspect or there’s something about the situation that precludes it (e.g. opiates on board but also gunshot to the back of the head).

Doesn't seem like any autopsy would pick up red flags if a killer just slipped some fentanyl into a victim's drink, especially if the victim had any history of drug use at all.

It’s LA so you can just step on a dirty needle. They’re scattered liberally.

That almost certainly wouldn’t kill you - at least not from the opioid. For a personal anecdote, I’ve stepped on a carfentanil dart at a nature preserve that was not properly disposed of and didn’t die. Given how much stronger carfentanil is, I am skeptical that an insulin syringe needle and the extremely small amount of fentanyl that would be on the tip alone could be enough to kill someone. (That being said, I’m also skeptical of all of the “cop faints from fentanyl powder absorbed through skin” claims too.)

That’s a terrifying thought. Humane, though.

Remember the nord ost siege? Where they tried to use aerosolized fentanyl as knockout gas and accidentally killed a bunch of hostages? Fentanyl is crazy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_theater_hostage_crisis

Can someone please explain to me why "relatively" safe drugs are being cut with Fentanyl, a drug which seems to be killing a lot of people? To me it seems counter-intuitive to kill unsuspecting users of party drugs. If the dealers/manufacturers wanted to make more money, why not just cut it with baking soda?

I imagine it's cheaper to produce at least the same result of whatever you're cutting it into.

presumably it gets you a better effect than cutting with nonactive substances, meaning the users buy from you instead of the 'weak shit' that's cut with soda

So we all know that continued use increases your resistance to drugs. With opiates in particular this can reach the point of there being a very small window between chasing the high you want and a lethal dose. You'll note that most opiate deaths are of experienced users for this reason. Being stepped on exacerbates this because you really don't know how much of the drug is actually there.

Fentanyl has become a relatively cheap way of upping the strength of whatever opiate you're selling. It used to be that no one knew how to illegally make fentanyl. Those dogs are long gone.

But there's another aspect to this: if someone overdoses (even dies) from something you as a drug dealer have sold then (as dark as it sounds) that's actually good marketing. That means you have the good stuff. It's shown to increase demand.

The moral of the story is don't get addicted to opiates.

But I'm hearing cases of drugs like Cocaine being cut with it, I would say the desired effect of cocaine and opiates is somewhat diametrically opposed

Long before fentanyl we had speedballs, which were a mix of cocaine and heroin. This isn't my area of expertise but there seems to be a demand for mixing uppers and lowers like this.

Not quite opposed because neither make you feel sober and sad. Users are accepting of a substitute that still induces euphoria, but by a different mechanism

I don't believe dealers are intentionally cutting fentanyl with cocaine. It's more likely a case of cross-contamination.

"National data show that a relatively low percentage of the cocaine tested by law enforcement contains fentanyl, although the mixture has become more common. Less than 1% of the cocaine samples tested by the Drug Enforcement Administration in 2016 contained synthetic opioids, according to figures provided to NPR; in 2020, it was up to 3.3%."

3.3% is a lot higher than I expected, though I wonder if there is a selection bias going on there.

"The moral of the story is don't get addicted to opiates."

That's not how addiction works.

What I mean is don't use opiates recreationally and use opiate painkillers sparingly.

As an aside, the US has a cultural problem with painkillers it seems. Like the expectation seems to be that painkillers completely remove pain but that's not how it works. Or at least if it does you're overusing painkillers. Painkillers are largely to make pain bearable and manageable not remove it completely.

This attitude seems to be a factor in the overprescription of opiates. I think I read once that if you're still taking painkillers 2 weeks after whatever incident led you to be taking them, there's a 50% chance you'll be taking them in a year.

I've had knee surgery and basically just got given oxycodone and valium. I took them for 2 days and then just used Tylenol (you don't take ibuprofen after surgery apparently).

That's really what I mean by "don't get addicted to opiates". Treat them as dangerous because they are.

I agree. Its important to remember that some types of pain have the biological purpose of preventing you from overusing an injured part of your body. Masking that with painkillers can give you a fall sense of confidence to continue using parts of your body that in reality should be at rest.

Great point. The crux of the pure physical addiction, separate from the psychological groundwork that leads you to it, is that you just need more and more of that stuff.

Fentanyl is a synthetic opioid that is up to 50 times stronger than heroin and 100 times stronger than morphine.

^ Imagine needing more and more of that stuff to get your usual high. You’re dead.

The one other thing other comments haven't mentioned is that it's also extremely small. This makes it much easier to traffic across the US border by land or air. Fentanyl might as well be nanoparticles relative to everything else.

I had my heroin addicted friend explain it to me: they add it because when others hear about the overdose, they will think that it was someone who couldn't handle a potent dose of heroin, not that it was fentanyl. Effectively they go looking for the supposedly potent heroin, advertised by the overdose.

> read between the … lines.. Is this implying that cocaine is regularly cut with Fentanyl? My understanding is it is mostly added to Heroin.

Yes, cocaine now regularly has fentanyl in it

Yes, cocaine users are sometimes receiving heroin

Yes, sometimes whatever they receive contain fentanyl

Yes, heroin users are also now commonly getting unintentional and intentional doses of fentanyl

Yes, fentanyl is being added to other drugs as well

Its a mess. I think its time to move on from abstinence only education to treating this like an ongoing bioterrorism attack and taking federal control of the supply chain.

How do you take federal control of the supply chain of illegal drugs being illegally trafficked into the country?

I do agree that it seems suspiciously like a deliberate attack, reminiscent of the opium wars.

> How do you take federal control of the supply chain of illegal drugs being illegally trafficked into the country?

Let the CIA do it, again?

Feds will probably end up fighting themselves in some cases yeah

That might actually work.

Give them away free to addicts under treatment, like in Portugal, which has practically eliminated its drug problem.

Of course for that you need public health care, too. What a shame that the richest country in the world (at least, for millionaires -- the 95% here are no better off than other places, less so than many) can't afford what every other country with paved roads has.

> the 95% here are no better off than other places

Uhhhh, there is a reason why people from other places want a greencard, even if just to work at minimum wage. The 95% in the US surely are better off than the majority of people in the world?

Just keep telling yourself that.

Hint: the overwhelming majority of people in the world hardly ever think about America at all, and then usually only when it is forced on them. You mostly only hear about the few who do, and imagine they are typical.

I’ve visited 20 countries, including the USA for a total of 4 months, and also Kenya (specifically Nairobi).

While I would say the average American is in a similar position to the average European (some things better, some things worse), I think if my options were to switch lives with a random American or a random Kenyan, I’d pick American.

I agree most people don’t care. I didn’t really want to leave the U.K. — where most of my friends were and still are — when the political situation made me feel it was no longer tenable to stay.

If Kenya is your benchmark, that says something. That on infant mortality we are trailing former SSRs should be troubling.

It’s an anecdote based on personal experience, not a benchmark.

for America fans, American exceptionalism relies on comparing America to the worst managed countries in the world. So you walked right into that. Stick with the comparison to Western and Central Europe because we need to normalize comparing America with developed nations.

The US uniquely has the resources to implement 21st century advances, and just doesn't. This changes when acknowledging what other developed nations have and ignoring the developing ones, let China focus on them thats working out pretty well for them.

> Stick with the comparison to Western and Central Europe because we need to normalize comparing America with developed nations.

But most of the world isn’t Europe either, so no, not in this case.

> The US uniquely has the resources to implement 21st century advances, and just doesn't.

It’s imperfect, and we all are. There’s stuff China does very well, and stuff it does badly[0]. There’s stuff the U.K. does well, and stuff it does badly. Israel[0], Ireland, Iceland[0], everyone.

But the USA and the bits of Europe I’ve seen, they’re mostly (excluding Budapest, IMO) similar for quality of life — you just get to choose between a playground lacking a swing and a playground lacking a roundabout, when half the planet has the metaphorical equivalent of a tyre on a rope over a ditch and nothing else.

Can the USA be better? I certainly think so. But it’s neither so good that the world looks at it in awe, nor so bad as to need to hide in shame.

[0] not visited, but from the outside don’t think it would suit me to live in any of them

If you travel, you are most likely much better off than most Americans. It is a hellscape for wage workers.

Indeed, but your comment is equally valid if I substitute “British”.

It's not a race. Hellscapes can be found in many places. Some places have better excuses than others.

Someone convinced you they stopped?

Honestly it leads to a state monopoly on distributing pure drugs

Vancouver is doing it

Its just a very very nonconsensus view right now, very fringe

Fentanyl is added to everything these days. I know someone who got some painkillers from a friend and ended up going to the hospital with a fentanyl overdose, and my drug enthusiast friends test their molly for fentanyl.

Why? Cross contamination because fentanyl is effective at extremely low doses? or is it a really inexpensive adulterant?

I don’t know for certain. But if I were to speculate…

Which country produces the largest share of fentanyl and the chemical precursors for fentanyl? Which country is one of the primary adversaries and rivals of the United States? Which country has first hand historical knowledge of how the illegal trafficking of narcotics can be used as a weapon to undermine and weaken a country?

They need to ship it to the UK then, straight from Hong Kong for maximum irony and retribution

They do, the UK is absolutely rampant with Asian pills and powders.

What he's referring to is that China is the biggest supplier of fentanyl and equipment to Mexican cartels that traffic it across the US' southern border. That's where most fentanyl comes from. How a country with such strict drug laws (execution) is the world's number one producer of the deadliest drug... doesn't make sense on face value.

Many fentanyl variants are 1000x more effective than regular opiods while at the same time, similar level of cheaper.

To reduce cost, every product is cut with fentanly.

The problem is it's very easy to put more than you actually need. We are talking about mistake of mg or less costing lives here.

That makes sense why opiods and similar drugs would be cut with it, but not why wildly different drugs would be cut with it, no?

> I don’t suspect foul play.

It's at least worth considering reading this as "I don't want to be found dead in a park".

There was two confirmed case of weed containing trace of fentanyl where I live.( Deep South of the Us )

My understanding is the bagging facility being un-tidy and fentanyl contamination being easy.

Two weeks ago I would have say « that a urban legend »

True. Many people use Fentanyl intentionally also though both prescribed and not.

If that's true then it's a perfectly easy thing for someone wanting to take him out to take advantage of. It's like a 'freebie' cover.

Pretty much all illegal drugs that can be laced with fentanyl are laced with fentanyl nowadays. Staying away from it is easier said than done

Staying away from illegal drugs is very easy unless you're already addicted.

Every single street pill or powder is suspect enough to just be rolling dice. Probably dark web too. People think they're taking Xanax...

In many countries (at least in Europe) there are harm reduction associations that can test the product for you at no cost and anonymously. In some cases you can even ask for a GC-MS, which is accurate enough to distinguish even between closely related substances (such as Xanax/alprazolam and other benzodiazepines).

Major US cities have that too, depending on political leaning, but it doesnt really match the user experience

People are doing lines at parties, and more commonly getting in trouble when they use their supply at home by themselves

These services rely on compulsive addicts to walk in, which is often people living on the street searching for the next hit

There are also personal use test kits to help with this

But at this point I’m thinking everyone should have a stash of narcan for resuscitation. Seems like an invisible distant and absurd thing but people are dying, number one killer 18-45 in US… and prevalance and education of narcan helps prevent the death. No different than defibrillators everywhere and fire extuingishers everywhere.

i don't want to attack the person, but calling the death of a person, if it would be a murder/assasination, foulplay makes me sad in any case, even if it was not a murder and it was selfimposed.

that guy in the park surely had other goals in his live most of the time than dying in a park.

i hope he can rest in piece.

Wait, how does this happen if you aren’t intentionally using it? Am I about to die from fentanyl overdosing?

I'm not sure if "exposure" is the right word to use in this context: https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/lindseyellefson/fentany...

Could you please add a link to a more reputable website? This one blocks European users because GDPR, which in this day and age means the site is either malicious or a misinformation cesspool.

Or Covid vaccine.

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