Relocating to Copenhagen considered harmful
easyexpat.com
easyexpat.com
I had the same experience in a nearby city, sending 30-40 emails for every 1 response. I finally decided to get a prepaid SIM and start calling people, and suddenly things became much easier.
The person who I eventually rented an apartment from explained that she placed the ad in the morning, went to work, and received my call (and a few others) before she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies. The people who called already had appointments to see the apartment, so she wasn't even going to look at the mails unless those people were uninterested. She also remarked that she could tell from our brief initial conversation that I seemed like a nice person, which helped my chances; she doesn't get that benefit from an email conversation.
Looking at it from a potential landlord's point of view, it makes sense that calling an ad that has just been placed is going to have the highest success rate; not everyone checks their mail as often as tech-minded people.
she returned home to read her e-mail, which contained over 100 replies.
THIS is the real problem. At the end of the day (or the week) it doesn't matter how one out of the 100 candidates is selected; what matters is that 99 fools will have to keep looking. Finding housing shouldn't be like applying to Google.
The fact that my landlord's ad received over 100 replies just indicates that there's a pool of "bottom performers" who are repeatedly trying to find housing by responding to ads despite the fact that they're doing some things wrong. Every new ad is going to receive a large number of responses from this same group of hopeless people. If they want to find a place, they're going to have to find out what's wrong with their approach and make some changes, just as I had to do.
This quote says it all:
> The building looked like a century old, fourth floor with no elevator (seems to be the norm almost everywhere)
BTW, one of the first things you should figure out when relocating is how the local housing market works, otherwise you will get screwed. Guess what: it works the same way the other way around (what do you think a European will experience if they try to move to NYC unprepared?).
As if civilization is determined by the housing situation and/or your own efforts required in order to get affordable housing, and any place that doesn't instantly give you a place to live within your means is not civilized.
But if civilization is determined by whether a house has an elevator or not, I'm out of words.
Thanks for the compliment but I'm a fellow European, not American.
> who shouldn't even be trying to live abroad.
Too bad I've tried it successfully three times already, one being in America.
For starters, because you should know damn well what you get into if you try to find housing in a major European city outside the normal housing system.
Also, because there's absolutely nothing abnormal in Europe about a century old building or four floors without an elevator.
My guess is you are well aware you screwed up by being unprepared, and now you're just trying to externalize the blame, hoping the readership here won't know any better.
The idea is simple: - OP moves to a new city - He checks out popular rental websites to look for a rental house - He applies to more than 30 of them without any replies - One where he manages something is dingy and unlivable based on American standards. - He rants
I do not see anything wrong in this. This method of finding rental houses works in several cities throughout the world - I have tried it in Singapore, New Delhi, Bangalore, NYC, Los Angeles, Sydney & San Francisco.
Also, I do not know about Copenhagen, but NYC is a very crowded place loaded with people with high income. Houses - especially in areas like Midtown or Downtown Manhattan are bound to be expensive (though you will still get responses for emails even there). However, it doesn't take rocket science to do a basic Craigslist search and check if things are cheaper in Uptown Manhattan or New Jersey.
As for knowing the language: You don't need to learn Danish just to get an apartment - I know a ton of foreigners who got by for years here without knowing a word of Danish. But you do need to realize that one way or the other you have to talk to people - they'll help you find a place or help you translate ads.
Neither are nearly as true as many like to believe.
And I suppose I found the post rather grating as well. I'm annoyed it got my goat. I wish I hadn't said certain things in some of my posts, regardless of what this individual's nationality turns out to be, presuming it can ever be realistically determined/verified.
Peace.
- Country, nationality and language are required fields in this site. Since leaving them blank was not an option, putting some blatantly bogus values was the second best.
- My nationality is besides the point but I'm not American. The "American" writing style may be thanks to watching too many American movies, frequenting too many American speaking forums or - guess what - living there as an expat for several years.
FWIW: I tend to attract way too much attention to me instead of my message. I have used that fact as a means to help me learn to express myself differently. That is not intended to blame you. It is intended to empower you: How we present information has a significant impact on how people respond to it.
Best of luck with your situation, whether you stay in Copenhagen or not.
That said, it sounds like your scope is something like the inner city of Copenhagen. That's a terrible starting point. It's much easier to find an apartment in the greater Copenhagen area: Frederiksberg, Albertslund, Ballerup, Brøndby, Gentofte, Gladsaxe, Glostrup, Greve Strand, Herlev, Hvidovre, Ishøj, Lyngby-Taarbæk, Rødovre, Søllerød, Tårnby, Vallensbæk, Værløse.
I am surprised, however, that your employer hasn't given you any references, tips, or even subsidized housing. Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane, it seems strange they would expect a foreigner to just "figure it out".
At least get a Dane to interpret all of the Danish apartment postings you're missing.
Overcrowded? Copenhagen has 6,100 people per km2. New York City has 10,600, Paris has 20,900.
Expensive? Sure, but not when it comes to housing. Renting an apartment in the city center is much cheaper in Copenhagen than in many other larger cities.
> Considering how hard it is to find housing in Copenhagen as a Dane
It used to be hard. Nowadays it isn't that bad. But you do need to ask around. What cphhell should have done is talked to his employer - and, like you said, he should broaden his scope. If I go to live in NYC I don't expect to get an apartment on Times Square.
thirsteh claimed that Copenhagen was overcrowded. I didn't bring density into the discussion.
> Munich has 4300 people/km2 and, let met tell you, it's hard to find an affordable flat there. NYC or Paris are hardly a good comparison, either. In this sense, Munich is very crowded
"Crowded" in the sense that thirsteh used refers to population density, not whether or not it's hard to find an apartment. Also, you can't automatically assume that it's hard to find an apartment in Copenhagen just because it is in other cities. It's gotten a lot easier in the past few years, and if you're willing to look beyond the city center, you'll find something pretty fast.
It's expensive in general. It has about the highest cost of living outside of Japan. OP was moaning something about not being satisfied with giving up half his paycheck.
Except that's not what overcrowded means. Also, most people I know (including foreigners) manage to get an apartment pretty quickly - but you can't expect to get something in the city center in a day without making an effort.
> It's expensive in general.
With housing being the notable exception. Try comparing what $700 or $1000 will get you in Copenhagen with what it'll get you in London, Paris, or NYC and you'll see what I mean.
> OP was moaning something about not being satisfied with > giving up half his paycheck.
That's another area where he probably didn't do his homework. First of all, the wages are some of the highest in the world. Secondly, while the tax rate is high, the amount of deductions is so big that the vast majority of people don't give up as as much as half their paycheck.
In time you'll have to deal with lots more friction and red tape than the simple act of scoring a place to live in an area where such places are scarce.
If you do decide to stay, ask your colleagues if any of them would mind a roommate to cut their rent. In environments where housing is scarce doubling up is quite common. You might actually make someone happy to lower their effective rent a bit.
The domain linked is funny, being an expat is never 'easy', there are always hang-ups and issues. The grass always seems to be a lot greener on the other side, once you arrive you realize quite quickly that each place has its advantages and its drawbacks. Easy is staying at home. Being an expat stands for broadening your world view and your skills at the expense of some inconvenience.
Oh, and we actually like those old buildings, the one I'm writing this from was built in 1903.
I'd probably think the same if I hadn't done this exact same thing on three different countries already without breaking a sweat (relatively speaking).
Have you mastered the language?
Language is not the (main) issue.
"Donating half of my paycheck to the taxman in order to live in a city overpriced by any measure is one thing."
Copenhagen has some of the highest wages in Europe. It also has fantastic levels of social welfare, income equality, universal education and healthcare, etc. Whining about high taxes also just comes across as so bloody stereotypical.
The high taxes line was just a flippant remark, I can't really complain as I knew about it beforehand. Having said that, the perks that come from high taxes are of little value to an expat moving there for a 1-2 year gig.
You can extrapolate the wage from this, but it's not high in the field at all.
One of the big issues Americans have with German homes: "The refrigerator is the size of a dorm refrigerator!!!!" This weirds out many Americans like it's the end of the world or something. Oh, and let's not get into the fact that many apartments are "unfurnished"* -- by that, they mean there is no refrigerator or stove or kitchen cabinets or light fixtures (just wires sticking out the ceiling) or kitchen sink (just a tap sticking out the wall). Germans move into rentals and buy appliances, kitchen cabinets, etc. The American housing office would cut deals with landlords and go in and supply the sink, stove, frig (an American style frig), etc. If you aren't military and don't have a housing office bridging some of these issues for you, hey, you get to cope on your own with the difference between what is normal in the US and what is normal in other places.
If you aren't up for that, yeah, run back to the US and continue to measure "civilization" solely in terms of (your concept of) material wealth, without regard to food quality, actual culture, local history and so on. Please do so quickly, before doing yet more damage to the public image other nations have of us "ugly Americans".
* This was more than 2 decades ago. I have no idea if things have changed since then. Feel free to give an update if you have more current info.
Update: A kitchen is often the exception.
Another big difference is that most American apartments have "wall to wall carpeting", something apparently so unusual in other countries that I often have to explain what on earth that means to foreign friends (the carpet is installed as part of the floor and nailed down). In your typical American apartment, you have vinyl flooring in front of the front door, in the bathrooms and in the kitchen. All other areas have wall to wall carpeting. From what I gather, wood, tile or similar flooring is far more common in other countries. I have respiratory problems and allergies. I wish I could find an apartment here with wood floors. Wall to wall carpeting is something I loathe. In the US, if you want wood and tile floors throughout the home to accommodate allergies and respiratory problems, you pretty much have buy your own house (or possibly live in New York, which I have no plans to do). In fact, wall to wall carpeting is so common here that even if you buy a house, you probably either have to rip out carpeting and install your own flooring or have the house custom built.
I am betting that the lack of carpeting is something the author of this article would view as proof of being "a dive"/slum. Lack of carpeting does occur in some older American homes, often ones which were never upgraded. So it tends to get interpreted by Americans as a mark of poverty. Given my health issues, I tend to side more with some of my foreign friends who are sometimes appalled at the idea of wall to wall carpeting and find the idea disgusting and unclean.
Last, I will note that I have lived in five different US states and every rental market has its quirks. I lived from age 3 to age 20 in the same town. When I first left home, moving to another part of the US was something of a shock as well. In short, anyone who feels strongly that the rental/housing market should behave X way should just stay where they are. (It won't stay the same where they are either, but the changes are likely to be more gradual and thus less shocking than moving elsewhere.)
Peace.
Wood floors are plentiful in San Francisco, too, because there's a lot of pre-WWII housing.
That's because it almost certainly is. 100 years is not an advanced age for a building outside the US.
I have been to copenhagen and it is basically a paradise. You are lucky to be living there.
I've looked a bit lately, and it is easy to find nice, 100sqm, modern flats with elevator etc. for 2000 Euros/month. It is possible but more difficult to find them for 1500. And to pay less one has to look for smaller, less modern etc.
However, the buildings in Copenhagen are generally about 100 years old (the one I live in now is from around 1920). And elevators are very rare in these old buildings. And there is a large body of old, small appartments with tiny bathrooms like the one you describe (around Copenhagen they are even called "Copenhagen bathrooms") - so if one looks at flats in the cheaper end of the spectrum that is what one will find. With eg. postdoc salaries after tax around 3000 Euros it is possible to find a place to live for most expats.
The "Copenhagen bathroom" was the single worst turn off in the whole deal. Glad to know it's not like this everywhere in the city.
- If the ad doesn't list dates and times when the apartment will be shown, you phone up the landlord and make an appointment.
- You go and see the apartment. Obviously you will be in competition with other applicants.
- Talk to the landlord and make a good impression -- do whatever is needed to make the owner pick you.
- If you are interested in renting, you write down your contact details in the applicant book.
- The landlord will go home and consider the applicants and phone up the lucky winner.
- The landlord may require a credit assessment to determine your financial situation. Some landlords require references from earlier tenancies.
- You meet the landlord to sign a formal lease (Scandinavian countries are pretty strict about landlord/tenant rights) and get the keys.
When I was renting in NYC, things were different. None of the places I rented (which I found on Craigslist) would have open house dates; instead, you would make a personal appointment with the landlord. Also, landlords seemed to prefer email.
As I am not a student, my main problem is not so much the cost as (1) the scarcity and the inane "competition" it promotes and (2) the sad state of the apartments condition, at least compared to modern housing in other first-world countries.
Fire regulations, plumbing regulations and so on are very strict, so internally you shouldn't really find any qualitative difference between Scandinavia and "other first-world countries".
In Scandinavia we have a strong affection for historic buildings, an affection that extends to interiors. We like fireplaces, creaky hardwood floors, crown mouldings, exposed brick walls, that sort of thing.
So buildings might feel distinctly unmodern, even though they aren't really. Some facilities may be lacking. Elevators are only common in somewhat newer (post-1980) buildings, for example. Common laundry rooms are usually pretty awful. And I have never come across a Scandinavian apartment building that has a porter.
But these are not important things. So again, based on what criteria are you judging Copenhagen?
This a typical mid/low end first-world bathroom: http://www.apollo-plus.co.uk/Design/Leigh.jpg
This isn't: http://images.travelpod.com/users/skylarking/1.1230340500.ds...
Edit: According to http://www.airbnb.com/rooms/111335, this "cute" style has its own name and history:
the type of bathroom typically referred to as a "Copenhagen bathroom". It basically means, that in the "old days", none of the working-class-apartments had showers. Eventually, this changed, but many of the apartments were so small, that it was almost impossible to fit in a big, modern bathroom. However, you get used to it very quickly and it is quite charming in its own way :)
Um, no, I'd rather not have to get used to it.
Look, some apartments have small bathrooms. For historical reasons, some old apartment buildings even have external bathrooms (or toilets) that are in the hallway/stairway. This is not true about all Copenhagen buildings. But it's true about some, just as it's true that a lot of buildings in London are afflicted with damp, bad plumbing, shoddy wiring and ugly wallpapers.
But I don't think it's fair to dismiss an entire city as being somehow not "civilization" based on the layouts of a minority of its bath facilities.
In fact, it sounds to me like you might just be a bit spoiled. Have you visited any non-first-world countries? Try Ukraine. You will feel like a billionaire.
I'm glad that not all Copenhagen buildings are moldy smelling dumps. I will be even more glad if I was unlucky to see one of the few exceptions and the majority are actually decent but I'm not holding my breath (no pun intended).
Bathtubs? Danes are (allegedly) the happiest country in the world because they have free health care, excellent education, wealth, political freedom, stability, etc. etc. Not because of the size of their baths.
I know how the effect of culture shock can be; everything seems weird and even small trivial things are horribly, almost infuriatingly alienating. But culture shock is a psychological, irrational phenomenon. This is about you, not about the country.
What kind of housing market is this guy used to, rural Kansas?
The 750/mo price was for a single room in a two bedroom apartment.
So, welcome to a european capital! 1 hour travel to work, 5th floor without lift is the way to go: older houses far outside of the big cities. The suburbs are already filled with locals who do not want/cannot afford to live in the centers. I'm completely unaware of the situation in Denmark, but just looking on google maps tells me that maybe Roskilde or Farum could be places to look for.
Also: you move to another country: other habits. If it's the situation on the housing market I cannot tell, but the million ways of being (un)friendly or (not) answering mails/letters, dealing with business transactions etc are the things which makes relocating difficult at heart, they are not just annoyances. I live in "another" country for some 20 years and will move to another one this month: I expect (and already experienced) a lot of impedance mismatches which could trigger a "considered harmful" post, but in the end I will have to adapt to enjoy the good things of it.
Good luck anyway!