Benedict Arnold's body lies in the wall of a British kindergarten | Hacker News Reader

Benedict Arnold's body lies in the wall of a British kindergarten

military.com

I wanted to see pictures, and I found some here: https://www.wearethemighty.com/articles/benedict-arnolds-cry...

It looks surprisingly cozy.

I’ve heard there’s a very odd monument to Benedict Arnold at West Point.

All of the generals of the American Revolution have monuments, including Arnold. But his is basically a blank sheet of stone with no name attached.

In addition to the nameless plaque in the Old Cadet Chapel at West Point, there is also a nameless statue to him at the Saratoga National Historical Park. The statue commemorates his leg, which was wounded in the battle there, but doesn't mention who the leg belonged to: https://www.nps.gov/places/boot-monument.htm

There is this photo of the West Point monument in a linked article, with his name excised.

https://mtv-main-assets.mountvernon.org/files/callouts/sml_3...

"Had he not become the most famous turncoat in U.S. history,"

"Patriot" and "traitor" are quite nuanced notions. At the time, a (US) patriot would of course have been considered a traitor (by Britain) because they were all British citizens.

Here we have a patriot who is a turncoat (ie a traitor).

Washington executed Andre, and would likely have been forced to do the same with Arnold were he able.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Andr%C3%A9

Britain had no citizens, it had subjects.

If he had gone straight over to their side, that would have been fine. If he had stayed out of the army, that would have been fine, even passing messages. But he swore an oath. He wanted a big payoff from the Crown, and title, in exchange for handing over his command. He didn't get it.

https://londonchurchbuildings.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/ba...

> Had he not become the most famous turncoat in U.S. history, his remains might have been interred in a grand or historically meaningful tomb, visited by thousands every year. Arnold's betrayal, however, overshadows any contribution to American independence, and his tomb is visited by only a dozen or so every day.

What’s the difference between thousands a year and a dozen a day? Sounds to me like he did pretty well in terms of building up a following...

It’s the same dozen every day because they are the kids and staff at a kindergarten.

Come to think of it, America has a long tradition of generals who become celebrities, but then fail spectacularly: Patton, MacArthur, McCrystal, etc.

Benedict Arnold was the first celebrity general to regret his fame.

Three names no parent will name their sons - Benedict, Adolf, Judas. Poor bastard. Talk about choosing poorly. Sold his legacy for peanuts.

FWIW he's fairly anonymous outside the USA. It was in Mike Duncan's "Revolutions" podcast that I first encountered him properly (not counting a reference I didn't understand in "Scrubs" a decade or so earlier). When it comes down to it, he was a bit more of a complex Bad Guy than your Adolfs Hitler or your Judases Iscariot.

What is odd is the suggestion that "Benedict" is ill favoured due to the memory of Benedict Arnold, while more universally and unambiguously bad guys (from the perspective of the US state) like Robert E. Lee and David Duke don't have this

More complicated in some ways but also surprisingly similar in that he would rather see his country burn than see someone else get credit for it's success.

Many people here will remember what they learned or heard, and instinctively downvote because they believe Arnold was a traitor through and through, and that it's not worth considering anything otherwise.

But as I recall he was a relatively successful officer in the US army in the war of independence. But he'd been overlooked within the US military (and incurred financial losses to boot) which make his decision to work with the British a bit more understandable. Looking back in hindsight with the USA as a distinct and separate nation, it looks like he's betrayed the nation of his birth ... but in the context of a civil war where there are two factions broadly of the same "nationality" fighting for independence it's a little more complex than that

Eh, he tried to sell a military fort (West Point) to the British for what would be about $5M today. I don't care how butthurt he was over a lack of recognition (he was a Major General, FFS), he earned the "traitor" moniker 100%.

If I read this correctly, Arnold was responsible for the victory of Saratoga, but public accolades were given to Horatio Gates, who would later prove completely incompetent (and something of a coward at Camden).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatio_Gates

It does appear that Benedict Arnold did greater service to the United States than the harm of his betrayal.

He tried to do a lot more harm than he succeeded at. Had it worked, it is not clear the colonies would have won in the end.

I am both aware of those circumstances, and considered them. At the end of the day, Saratoga was won by hoards of soldiers largely anonymous to history, and yet they didn't betray their country for lack of credit. On the balance, Arnold's motives appear self-serving, and his willingness to betray his allegiance for a seemingly better deal made him a traitor.

There's bad and then there is traitorous - completely untrustworthy.

Robert E. Lee might be seen as a traitor, but only if everyone citizen of the CSA is.

I'm not aware of David Duke being a traitor.

If being a traitor was such a big thing I would have imagined the attempt to overthrow the election on 6th January 2020 would have been more broadly opposed. What is more traitorous than attempting a coup?

My point is not to relitigate old battles though - people like and dislike stuff based on their gut, which is fairly arbitrary and sometimes contradictory and I am not immune to that myself. My point was that it's interesting one person gets a pass for being universally awful and another has their role in a revolutionary war completely boiled down to "Benedict Arnold bad!" when the story is "Benedict Arnold bad ... but also at one point good, and interesting and worth reading about"

There are (so far) 862 criminal charges filed regarding that incident, with more on the way. How broad would you like your opposition?

I expect that GP meant broadly opposed [amongst the population]. You could argue that even with this assumption, it would qualify, as 7 in 10 Americans do think the insurrection was wrong. But I can see the merit in arguing that 3 in 10 supporting it is uncomfortably high.

I read the parent to mean that -- apparently in some cases -- actions alone are insufficient to indicate treason: the actor has to be seen as a traitor. Hence the apparent disjunction between the general regard of Americans for Benedict Arnold and Trump.

Mostly misdemeanors. Very few got as many as four years, probably most will be out in much less than their sentence.

Not like the patriots who exposed war crimes.

Well a pretty sizeable chunk of the population believe it was a good thing and don't appear to be discouraged in any way by those charges

There a lot of other famous Roberts and Davids, to dilute any negative connotation associated with Robert E. Lee and David Duke. Benedict has a lot less dilution powers. Furthermore, most people don't care or know about David Duke and Robert E. Lee is seen by many as a noble and sympathetic character.

Benedict Arnold is the only one of those three who will be consistently seen as a big and important villain by the general american public.

Robert E. Lee was indicted for treason, but the nation favored reconciliation over retribution, and the treason of the South was ignored by the country as a whole. Lee's prosecution was later dropped. If Johnson had gotten his way and prosecuted the leaders of the South, the US' feelings towards Lee today might be different.

If the Colonies had lost the Revolutionary War, the signers of the Declaration of Independence knew they'd all hang for treason.

No American parent perhaps. The name doesn't have negative connotations elsewhere. For me, it's more associated with the previous pope and the actor than with Arnold.

As an example, the UK tech analyst Benedict Evans: https://www.ben-evans.com/

Benedict Cumberbatch :)

Dirk :/

Would it be weird if I named my son Guy Fawkes?

"This Guy Fawkes!"

Possibly, but it would not be weird at all to name him Guy <your surname>

Even as an American I think first of the pope. I still wouldn't name my child Benedict, but I hardly blink when I see it used.

other:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_Arnold_(congressman)

"Benedict Arnold (October 5, 1780 – March 3, 1849) was an American politician from New York, and a member of the House of Representatives."

"He was named in honor of the famous Benedict Arnold at a time during the American Revolutionary War when he was still seen as a hero of the United States, stemming from the capture of Fort Ticonderoga."

That's interesting. Benedict Arnold's treason was exposed in late september and this guy was born early october before his parents found out about the treason. So news definitely spread slowly back then.

It says he had 12 children. I wonder if he named any of his sons benedict.

One of his children was also Benedict.

"They had twelve children, Hiram, Jane, William, Maria, James, Charlotte, Lorenzo, Benedict, Hasley, Sarah, Marion, and Adam"

Benjamin Arnold was outed September 23rd, 1780 with the capture of his conspirator, Andres. Andres was hanged October 2nd, also in New York.

Maybe the news didn't spread quickly enough? It seems suspicious, though, given how big a story it was. Maybe his parents were Tories?

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/benedict-accompl...

U.S. Most common male names:

  Rank=642.   ADOLPH   0.01%  35,717
  Rank=1124. BENEDICT  0.00%  12,988

https://namecensus.com/first-names/common-male-first-names/?...

> Three names no parent will name their sons - Benedict, Adolf, Judas

What? The name is now extremely popular again, thank to the actor from the Marvel movies (Dr. Strange) and TV's Sherlock Holmes.

I'm talking, of course, about Adolf Judas Cumberbatch.

Mr. and Mrs. XVI's son seems to have done quite well for himself as well.

A kid at my son's school is named Judas.

The name also shows up occasionally as "Jude" (Jude Law, for example), which is fair given that there was another Apostle by that name. It's still far more often than you run into anyone called Pontius Pilate these days.

Aleluya, a book in the Bible is called Judas (after Jesus' brother through Mary and Joseph)

I've vouched for this comment, since it is actually relevant to what it is responding to, but a glance suggests all your other comments are spam. Spamming forums is not generally an effective way of being heard if those forums take spam-prevention seriously.

Sold his legacy for peanuts? Maybe he didn't care about legacy. And the situation was more complicated than you're implying.

Not many people know about Nathanael Greene either.

He was also a brilliant general, instrumental in the defense of the South from Tarleton, leading to Yorktown.

He also played a role in New York, saving us from disaster.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathanael_Greene

Had Benedict Arnold remained loyal, maybe he would have similar name recognition (which is not much).

I've always assumed that various Greenevilles, Greenesboros were named after him. The Wikipedia entry for Greenesboro, North Carolina, says that it is.

I knew a dude named Adolf. He was from wherever in Africa used to be a German colony.

An Adolf Hitler won a minor election in Namibia a couple of years ago: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55173605

Of course he has to immediately assure the reporter that he isn't planning to use this victory to springboard his plans for world domination.

The best lyric in "Jesus Christ Superstar" is when Jesus yells at Judas for betraying him "You liar, you Judas!"

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