So you find it horrifying if a young male openly identifies as a boy, and a young female openly identifies as a girl?
Those terms in this context refer to prepubescent children.
If a girl likes to dress in what is traditionally recognised as boys clothes and play with trucks, that just kids being kids, there's nothing transgendered to be found there.
> If a girl likes to dress in what is traditionally recognised as boys clothes and play with trucks, that just kids being kids, there's nothing transgendered to be found there.
There is nothing *necessarily* transgendered about this. However, the grandparent stated there are openly transgendered kids in a second grade class. Are you saying it’s impossible for a child to know if they’re trans or not? I think we generally accept that some gay people knew they were gay at that age, why can’t the same be true for trans people?
Then, you know, hormones happened. It’s insane to think that kids can be trans because a huge part of what makes us men or women happens during puberty. I didn’t think much about my gender until puberty hit either.
As far as I can tell, nearly all kids are fairly certain about their gender identity by the time they start school. What makes you so certain that those of them who are transgender will have no idea?
It’s insane to think that kids can be cis gendered because a huge part of what makes us men or women happens during puberty.
So given both of those positions, exactly what point are you trying to make in relation to this thread besides trying to imply that prepubescent transgendered kids don't exist, when they clearly do by their own accounts as adults?
My best friend growing up was gay and some people recognized it before puberty, but he either couldn't or wasn't willing to recognize it until after high school. He had a breakdown while drunk on our band trip and said he was asexual. Do you think a little kid that realizes he's different from everyone else might just think he's trans instead of realizing he's just gay? That's kind of hard to sus out until you actually have sexual attraction to people.
I was never into either dolls or trucks as a kid, nor did I wear girls' clothes. I still experienced gender incongruence.
“Transgender” is not a sexual identity, it is a relationship of gender identity to gender socially ascribed at birth, usually on the basis of the appearance of external genitalia (but possibly on the basis of genetics where that has been previously tested.)
And people usually have an open gender identity by second grade.
(Second grade also isn't particularly early for children to have an established sexual orientation, though it's a bit earlier than the median age for that.)
But, this does not preclude young children to not have sexual identities! My wife’s best friend knew he was gay when he was 6. He didn’t have the understanding to know this precisely, but he did know he was different from the other boys. This is not an uncommon experience.
If there’s anything this thread indicates, based on demonstrated ignorance of these topics, it’s that clearly schools should in fact be spending more time teaching this subject.
This is the "phobia" part of "transphobia".
What does that even mean? That a boy prefers to play with dolls? How can a prepubescent second grade child be trans!?
Do you mean “how can they have a gender identity”? or “how can it be different than their assigned gender at birth“?
I’m trying to figure out what you don't understand here. Do cisgender identities in children that age surprise you?
Children throw tantrums over all sorts of trivial stuff, how could you possibly diagnose gender dysphoria off the fleeting whims of a preteen child?
What's arguably more dangerous is having an authority figure dictate to an impressionable child that they're "trapped in the wrong body" and setting them up for a lifetime of confusion. I don't think proponents of LGBT in the classroom realize that gender dysphoria is socially infectious, particularly when it is advertised as a solution to the typical confusion and angst that teens feel as they transition into adulthood.
The authority figure angle is interesting, though, especially in the case of one of the children I mentioned who has a cisgendered twin of the same biological sex. Seems weird the parents would push it on one child and not the other…
…or, it could just be as simple as you being wrong. Maybe even intentionally so. I don’t know. Regardless I’m not interested in responding to you any more after this because I don’t have time for bad faith actors.
Well isn't that ironic, considering you didn't answer mine in the GP. I'll tell you what is bad faith though, your shallow accusation as a substitute for an argument. What exactly are you implying with this accusation anyway?
>Seems weird the parents would push it on one child and not the other
It's not necessarily being "pushed" onto them, but excessive encouragement and failure to intervene - and I'm not implying that they've done anything out of selfish reasons (though transgenderism absolutely confers clout in certain circles these days).
1. The state of the progressive movement, where underprivilege is used to justify special treatment
2. Specific dynamics of the LGBT and especially trans community, which psychologically incentivises entry and continued participation, in the same way as a gang or cult. Complete with a flavor of excommunication for detransitioners who are accused of bigotry for saying exactly the sort of things I'm saying. What about their lived experiences?
3. The [false] promise that a troubled teen can effectively reinvent himself and become the person they want to be with pills and surgery. It's common for teens to desire to be someone else.
The clout angle isn't unique to gender dysphoria either - teenagers self diagnose with all kinds of trendy disorders in certain circles, and when I was in HS it wasn't transgenderism but bisexuality that people latched onto as a fashionable form of rebellion. Difference being we didn't give them affirmative therapy and HRT.
Sorry, but acknowledging that the incentives are perverse does not make me a bigot, and such accusations only serve to derail the discussion. Perhaps parents wouldn't be up in arms if this wasn't the default response to criticism.
Edit: also, the whole trans murder thing is a myth and perpetuating it helps no one. https://quillette.com/2019/12/07/are-we-in-the-midst-of-a-tr...
> how could you possibly diagnose gender dysphoria off the fleeting whims of a preteen child?
I'd recommend you take a look at the diagnostic criteria [0] for what you're talking about. Take note at how much stricter the criteria are for being diagnosed as a child. And then consider that mental health services already tend to discount the lived experiences of their adult clients. I can only imagine the crap young trans people have to go through.
> particularly when it is advertised as a solution to the typical confusion and angst that teens feel as they transition into adulthood.
I'm curious where you've been reading this. I only see people say this stuff in jest, and only if you take it out of context could you think it was serious.
Being a lesbian, I don't have to worry so much about having a partner who refuses to wash their ass or do chores because "that's gay," but that doesn't eliminate homophobia or catcalling or men thinking "I'm not interested, I have a girlfriend" means "I want to have a threesome with you and am playing hard to get, please continue to hit on me." Anyone who thinks about coming out knows that, even if being LGBT solves problem A, it creates problems B, C, and D.
But even if there is an epidemic of people thinking they're LGBT, what's the harm in that? Undergrad psychology students self-diagnose themselves all the time, and then they realize they're being stupid by the end of the semester. Trans people can't just write their own HRT prescriptions, the process is actually quite lengthy if you're a minor, and even for adults it can take awhile (and even then permanent effects take awhile, so if you realize you're not trans, it won't have lifelong consequences).
> gender dysphoria is socially infectious
It's not "socially infectious" like a disease, it's "socially infectious" in the sense of "oh wait, so these feelings I've been dealing with have a name, and I don't have to keep being miserable?" LGBT people tend to find each other and become friends, even while they're all still in the closet, and one coming out tends to have a bit of a chain reaction. It's not a bad thing unless you view being LGBT as a bad thing.
[0]: https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphori...
You put that far more eloquently than I could!
As a trans person, I'm not confused about anything. I experienced severe gender incongruence since the moment puberty began. And no one's dictating anything to trans people either -- gender identity is remarkably resistant to external pressure, as seen in all the sexologist reports on trans kids from the 70s through the 90s. That's just not how gender works in our species.