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Comment by tomatowurst | Hacker News Reader

i say it again and again whenever i see these threads:

psilocybin mushroom kicks down depression so hard it can't get up and bother you again.

no SSRIs, no marijuana after taking it.

anxiety and ptsd are still there tho so i think that requires something else. also something about THC that seems to reverse the benefits I got from psilocybin. cessation of THC seems to put me "back" on track if that makes sense.

disclaimer: ymmv, please get a sitter, if not, do it outside (best to do it on the grass) where you are safe, comfortable, and calm.

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> disclaimer: ymmv, please get a sitter, if not, do it outside (best to do it on the grass) where you are safe, comfortable, and calm.

I just want to echo how important this disclaimer is. There's no free lunch, and psilocybin can be incredibly challenging. For some people it is massively helpful for depression, but this is not a guarantee. Do your research and have a guide (if at all possible).

Something else that's critically important is to make sure you know what you're getting is actually psilocybin and not something else, and that the dosage actually is what you expect.

If you're part of a research study at a respected institution, that's easy. Not so easy if you're getting it on the black/gray market or picking mushrooms yourself.

So if you have to get it from the black/gray market, educate yourself thoroughly on how to tell if it's real and what the dosage you're getting is.

Alan Rockefeller has some great videos on psilocybin mushroom identification: [1] [2]

[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pInqVRRva7M

[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcL-7u80kjs

Psylocibin mushrooms are easy to propagate (as far as mushrooms go) and I’m not aware of any other psychoactive chemicals found in mushrooms that won't kill you, so what is it that you are concerned about? I've never heard of someone buying "counterfeit" magic mushrooms.

"I've never heard of someone buying "counterfeit" magic mushrooms."

Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

First, mushrooms can be misidentified, due to carelessness or ignorance. A misidentified mushroom can be poisonous. So that's my primary concern.

Second, it's easy to just add whatever chemical you want to non-psychedelic mushrooms, so it's quite possible that you'll get some non-psychedelic mushrooms with some mystery drug added to them.

Third, if someone on the street (or even a friend) offers you something they claim is psilocybin, there's no way of knowing if it really is psilocybin unless you test it.

Figuring out the substance's purity/dosage is even more difficult, as labs in the US that do commercial drug testing aren't legally allowed to report purity, and reagent testing isn't going to tell you.

The amount of psilocybin/psilocyin in mushrooms also varies greatly, so going by gram of mushroom weight (dry or fresh?) isn't very reliable.. especially if you don't know exactly which species each of the mushrooms are and someone's just selling you some mystery "magic mushrooms".

This is ridiculous. People selling psilocybin mushrooms aren't going out of their way to sell you counterfeits because the profit margin is already so low for this category and you could easily tell apart shitake mushrooms from psilocybin mushrooms.

Nobody is on the streets selling psilocybin like they sell other drugs, it would be like people trying to pass off broccoli as marijuana.

I'm sorry but you sound like Nancy Reagan right now. You are trying to warn people about something that you yourself have barely experienced or knowledgeable about by taking some other tangent item and applying it here because it is "drugs".

What assurance do I have that some rando at a festival who claims to have "magic mushrooms" is actually selling psylocybin mushrooms? None.

They might have picked some "little brown mushrooms" in a field somewhere thinking they were psylocybin mushrooms but not gone to the effort to identify them properly, or just not known how to do it, or made a mistake. Or maybe they got it from someone who told them that's what they were, but themselves didn't know, etc.

Or they (or their supplier) might have gone the easy route and bought some mushrooms and sprinkled some "bath salts" on them.

As a consumer you just don't know -- especially if they're dried, crumbled mushrooms which could be just about anything or a mix of stuff.

It's just sad hearing people who are so adamantly determined to stick their head in the sand and trust whatever drug they're being peddled is what their dealer claims it is.

Nancy Reagan's famous line was "Just say no." I'm not saying "Just say no". I'm saying "Just say know."

Educate yourself. Test your stuff. Be smart. Don't just guzzle down whatever you're given without satisfying yourself that it actually is what your provider claims it is.

Why would someone waste their time foraging for psylocibin mushrooms to sell? They can be grown for basically free and in much larger quantities. Dried psylocibin mushrooms are still easily identifiable. If a rando drug dealer was claiming to have psylocibin capsules, for instance, sure, that would give me pause. But again - have you EVER heard of this happening? I've not. You're talking nonsense.

You seriously haven't heard of a single case where a fake or harmful substance was ingested as if it was a drug?

I heard more than one story, e.g. giving unsuspecting newbies tea under guise of weed. And that didn't even involve money, imagine how much you could earn by optimizing for finding shroom-curious laypeople. (If this is nothing to you, perhaps you are not poor.)

I'm not OP but I wouldn't want to take a gamble buying illicit substance from someone I don't know and can't vouch for.

They're openly being sold in Canada; I believe end-of-life care research had such positive results that has now lead to it now being given to terminally ill cancer patients to help them come to terms with their situation.

https://dose.land

You may end up on a list but that didn't stop marijuana for propagating through society when illegal; now legal in Canada, widely available, a big industry, and tax revenue source.

As a general PSA: If you’re using any drugs it’s important to test with a reagent to make sure it’s what you expect. You can by kits with excellent instructions from DanceSafe.

https://dancesafe.org/

I just want to get to the point where what you wrote is written in fine print on the side of a bottle, specifically because the FDA saw it happen in the clinical trials for that specific use case

Instead we are just left with this hodgepodge of random completely different experiences controlled for nothing

Be deliberate and have fun. And always know that you will sober up. you are on drugs — you aren’t crazy — you will be fine — you didn’t break your brain.

Yeah sadly not always true. Some people go get lasting problems from certain drugs. They can provoke psychiatric deteriorations. Examples: potent cannabinoids, amphetamines, high dose psychedelics. Lots to be said about set, setting and underlying vulnerabilities.

Still probably a healthy mantra to recite to anyone in the midst of overwhelm as most people a fine, and its a caring act.

My understanding is that people’s experiences can be toxic and ptsd producing—it isn’t the biological action of the drugs themselves (high dose amphetamines as the exception).

Are you invoking mind body dualism?

Or referring to the limits of modern biology?

Both, I suppose. It comes down to why we have biology vs physics -- there are emergent phenomena that don't make sense to study only at the level of more reductive elements. Yes, chemistry is important in experience -- or taking chemicals wouldn't effect our experience. But we can clearly understand how an experience is psychologically damaging without haven't a clue as to its chemical underpinnings. And the point is that drug experiences can be damaging -- even if the drugs themselves are non-toxic.

Ayahuasca "cured" my depression. When I say "cured", I mean that it helped me experience my mind without depression. Because I was able to step out of depression for the first time since prepubescence, I realized it was possible for my mind to exist away from depression. That realization was profound and critical to regaining my mental health.

Psychedelics are very powerful. Ayahuasca in particular can and does induce psychotomimetic states, as described in the article. If you are not in ceremony with a trained plant medicine practitioner, this "pseudo psychosis" can become very overwhelming and even damaging.

whew, ayahuasca is a whole different beast and frankly is frightens me and I don't think I ever want to be in a position where I do it.

psilocybin's come up is frightening/anxiety/panic inducing as it is....I don't think I can ever jump over ayahuasca, that seems like a whole different animal.

For me I feel like psilocybin "reset" my brain and there's some long lasting protection mechanism against depressive thinking. Even if I do feel down, something pulls me out of it. Whereas depression once it pulls you in, it likes to keep you there.

Do not take psychedelics lightly, especially ayahuasca and heroic doses. Even for the come up on psilocybin, it required considerable self calming and focused willpower to overcome the fear of losing ego. But my god, what comes after, the clarity, the peace, love and lingering positivity....zero chance the pharmaceutical community will be able to replicate it.

Ayahuasca brews vary widely in composition, depending on who brews it.

I'd be very wary of some self-styled shaman adding datura or some other nightshade plant to the brew (which is not unheard of), and that's something I definitely want to stay far, far away from.

Unless I was brewing it myself I'd want nothing to do with it either, because I couldn't be sure of what I was getting.

heard lot of horror stories of self-proclaimed shamans trying to capitalize financially. datura is scary stuff...

With ayahuasca, it is critical to work with a knowledgeable plant medicine practitioner. The ceremony leader makes a huge difference in the experience. A very good plant medicine practitioner can control the tone of the entire experience for every single person. They can guide you into various emotional states through traditional Icaros or through nontraditional medicine songs, while ensuring that the ceremony setting remains psychologically safe for everyone. It's quite magical what a trained ayahascera/o can do to help navigate these mind states.

Conversely, an untrained or despotic ceremony leader can create an unsafe setting, and can lead vulnerable people right into psychotic-like states.

> whew, ayahuasca is a whole different beast and frankly is frightens me and I don't think I ever want to be in a position where I do it.

For me that line is deliriants. I can even admit to a morbid curiosity myself, but I have no idea why people would ever put themselves through that more than once.

> Do not take psychedelics lightly, especially ayahuasca and heroic doses.

In my experience with various psychedelics, the intensity of the experience is purely a function of dosage, and not of the specific substance. Heroic doses with psilocybin, LSD, and DMT, are all very serious and challenging, and I don't think there's a singling out of any specific type. Could I be mistaken?

I used to suffer from depression many years ago too, but I have grown through it. Low doses of psychedelics are the best thing on occasion, and DMT/ayahuasca is by far my favorite. Usually a couple times per year, I like to make a Mimosa hostilis and B. caapi brew with the plant equivalent of ~15 mg of DMT. It's a low dose (the Cubensis equivelant of ~1.5 grams), but the experience is incredibly therapeutic, healing, and educational. Minimal anxiety, and no psychosis of any sort. And I've always come away from it with such an intense love and appreciation for life that I can take with me everywhere.

If my experience is anything to go by, I think the experiences of low doses of ayahuasca are incredibly valuable and safe, and I only hesitate to suggest it to others because I'm not sure if my experience is unique.

I think THC affects some people by kicking their anxiety into high gear (I know that's the case for me). One day, we'll probably figure out the genetics underlying that effect.

For me, the paranoid/anxious/fixated type of high can be a feature, not a bug. I try to meditate when it happens. Marijuana can be a tool to exaggerate the way you're feeling about mistakes, shortcomings, and flaws you perceive in yourself, and when you're not high, you can assess what to do about how you're feeling. It's helped me make peace with my self image, and forced me to confront negative habits and patterns in my life.

Drugs can be great to poke and prod your psyche and help with questions like "why do I think or feel like this?"

Identifying things in your environment that trigger anxiety or paranoia can also make your home a more comfortable and cozy place. When your perception is altered, it's an opportunity to learn new things. The new perspective can be a valuable tool for becoming a better version of yourself.

This is true for me. But it wasn't always the case.

It used to be a release from the grip of boredom and permit my brain to dance about joyfully.

Now it flips my anxiety switch and I get stuck in a self conscious loop. Almost the opposite. Wish I could go back.

was why i stopped taking marijuana, if absolutely need be, a low THC + high CBD combination seems to put anxiety at bay but what I dislike is the racing thoughts, the euphoria that kicks you out of boredom but keeps you coming back.

some people don't seem to have it as bad but for me I really struggle with the popular belief that marijuana is harmless. We simply don't know, we are guinea pigs with these high thc marijuana.

I certainly wasn't my best with it, it magnified emotions and past memories, it exasperated my OCD/ADD. Looking back, I really wish I hadn't used marijuana but at the same time, glad I went through that phase when I was younger.

Absolutely. I'll add that there has been some preliminary exploration[0] into the genetics already; many would dismiss the psychotic and psychedelic (often disturbing and unpleasant) trips that some experience from THC (or cannabis, but this study focused on THC rather than other cannabinoids that may have been present), but there's already an established case that suggest that it's not simply an anxiety-ridden trip.

0: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4872423/

PTSD seems to be very responsive to MDMA with as few as just one session (at least with a therapist as a guide).

For those not in the know, growing your own mushrooms is super easy with the "Ben Tek" (see /r/UncleBens Reddit). And the items you need to buy are not illegal (since the spores contain no psilocybin they are not illegal to possess, and can be shipped across state lines, so a $10 website purchase is enough for dozens of trips).

Also ketamine. Lots of scientific and anecdotal evidence is accumulating every month. It might also work for other mind-related issues, such as eating disorders.

I've suffered from life-long depression, since I was around 5 years old. I won't go into the details here, but it will suffice to say that it's been a fucking horrible waste of life.

A couple of years ago I was prescribed ketamine (multiple times a day, taken orally, a non-psychoactive dose) for an unrelated chronic neuropathic pain condition... and I feel like it's cured my depression! It really is an absolutely incredible drug - I only wish it was more widely available to others in my situation.

For PTSD i recommend taking a look at stellate gangelion block

https://youtu.be/nC2fBe6U7lg

There is no conclusive evidence of long-term benefits and SGB is not currently an established treatment.

Two shots in 5 years ago . PTSD free for 5 years

U don't have to do it forever. If it comes back take another shot

Any advice on the sitter? I don't have the perfect friend available, not sure there's an option here except to do it alone or not at all

1. You can have friend at your place nearby playing computer games or something else. Just there incase you panic or have issues. They should read up a bit before. Basically they are there to tell you that, example, you get anxiety, that you are fine and what you are feeling is not real and let go.

2. If no one is around stat with super low dose first time. And grow from there over months if you are scared. You'll understand after low dose what's coming and thank yourself later.

2. You can not have any and I mean any plans for that day. Not even I'll have to take the trash out in the evening, seriously. Turn the phone to airplane so no one can call and block messages. You do not want anything that requires functioning human from you. You could do that but it will ruin your time.

4. Outside - no matter how cozy your home is do it in your country house or somewhere where you are alone and feel safe, have a fallback house or place but still in nature. Dunno, rent something.

There are actually some online sitters like those at https://tripsit.me

They're not ideal, but better than nothing.

Even better would be to start making friends in the psychedelic community -- which is getting easier to do all the time, and to maybe find an underground guide. Another way to go is to sign up for a research study.

Why psilocybin and not LSD?

The focus of recent research in to psychedelics has been on psilocybin rather than LSD because, as one researcher joked, politicians don't know how to spell psilocybin.

LSD still has some scary connotations towards some of the older generation based on the sensationalism and scare-mongering of the 60's and 70's, while most people didn't know about psilocybin until researchers started reporting positive things about it in the last decade or so.

There have been some studies that showed that even experienced psychedelic users can't tell the difference between the major classic psychedelics, so there might be much actual difference between LSD and psilocybin in the last analysis... though more research is definitely needed.

Still, if any classic psychedelic is legalized in the US, the first one will probably be psilocybin.. and research will continue to focus mostly on it, for the above mentioned reasons.

I think that it was Michael Pollan in an interview or in his book "How to Change Your Mind" who said that the principal reason is that a psilocybin trip can fit in the working day of a therapist/guide/researcher, whereas a typical LSD trip can last a dozen hours or more.

what is your dosage and frequency?

I've heard this is only effective at "heroic" doses -- most studies also use a high dose (>= 25 mg psilocybin)

going to be honest i really don't buy this microdose, your body will quickly build natural tolerance to psilocybin. this is not like THC or alcohol where you drink tiny amounts, the effects will be felt.

it makes sense why the body builds tolerance to psilocybin so rapidly and half life is quite long (at least a month or two) for evolutionary purposes. which to me is interesting because it shows that we've evolved to build tolerance against it but THC takes far longer and in very high doses to build tolerance.

all in all, I've read accounts of people seeing positive changes with microdosing but for my case, while I did not take heroic doses (McKenna's 5 grams), I took at best 2 to 3 grams. In higher doses I had a transcendental experience....

while nobody has died from taking psilocybin outright, there had been reported incidents where it had impact on somebody prone to schizophrenia and psychosis. However its extremely rare. This is why I suggest to people to have a sitter and be at a ground level.

It's not an issue for the millions of people that take it but if you've never even smoked marijuana before and this is your first try, please get a sitter.

> it makes sense why the body builds tolerance to psilocybin so rapidly and half life is quite long (at least a month or two) for evolutionary purposes

The half life of psilocybin is only a couple of hours, not a couple of months. The mental after effects can linger for a long time of course, if that's what you mean.

i mean when you redose, its effect will be significantly diminished. it is not something you can do recreationally, "only on the weekends" type of thing.

I don't think there's been a real study proving microdosing actually does anything? My experience with trying it was kind of useless. The only times I got anything from it was the times where I dosed a little to much by accident.

I feel highly motivated when on and for a period after coming down. Dose: 3.5 mg dry fruit. Frequency: Maybe once a month; only recreationally with friends.

what is 'dry fruit' in this context?

Sorry. Dried Shrooms themselves, I.e. not a psilocybin dose. Of course I goofed the units, confusing you. Grams not milli grams.

thank you

People might take your more seriously if you acknowledged that your personal experience is not necessarily universally applicable to the very large group of people who suffer depression.

I'm not alone that psilocybin has improved or outright "cured" depression in people, you will find plenty of studies and articles on this.

I’m not suggesting you are - but that gives you no basis to claim it is a guaranteed cure for all sufferers of depression.

Mate, your life and discussions will go better if you just place “in my experience” wherever necessary. You can assume that most people are not using the literal universal quantifier.

Requesting people use “some” and “in my experience” and all that shit is just noise on a discussion board. Just read and comprehend what they’re saying.

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