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Comment by kcplate | Hacker News Reader

Keto is responsible for me losing 170lbs, putting my diabetes into remission (eliminating daily insulin). If it kills me at 75, so be it. That is better than dying in my 50s from diabetes.

As for all the other stuff, all farming has environmental impact. You can argue degrees of impact, but at the end of the day I am just not willing to only eat items that have a lower environmental impact, but require me to stick a needle in my stomach every day and still be at a high risk of dropping dead 20 years earlier.

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Congratulations! The latest studies suggest that a plant based whole food diet is equally if not more effective at weight loss than a keto diet. The most important thing is paying attention to what you eat! In a head to head study between keto and plant based, participants in both categories lost weight. It seems that a controlled reasonably healthy diet is the key.

That said there are many anti-cancer fighting properties of a plant based diet. Consumption of meat and animal products seem to lead to higher cancer risks.

I’m currently losing weight on a whole food plant based diet combined with modest daily fasting (10 hours eating, 14 hours fasting per day).

Vegan vs keto study:

https://youtu.be/SsSHzTsG4wY

Great lecture on weight loss with a plant based diet:

https://youtu.be/EpRrD58Ah3Q

Health concerns with a keto diet:

https://youtu.be/nEjuZsP8o7g

That said I’m just a vegan who has been listening to these folks talk about this stuff, but I’m not an expert. I’m glad you found something that works!

At this point for me it’s less about the weight loss benefit and more about my body’s inability to effectively use the insulin. I’m not opposed to a plant based diet, but for me, the additional carbs would create extraneous insulin dependency. Most grains for me are just not doable at all…and every vegan/vegetarian I know seem to rely on grains as a main staple of their diet.

Interesting. Yeah the reason I felt some concern was that I listen to the YouTube channel linked in the last two videos a lot and I get the impression that animal products create lots of long term health risks.

But I’m thinking about my vegan diet. When I started I relied on a LOT of carbs and grains. It just made it easy but it wasn’t very healthy (I made a hard switch before I really knew what to eat). Now four years in I don’t buy any bread or bagels. I don’t have bread in the house.

I eat some brown rice. I don’t know if that disagrees with you.

Here’s my daily diet:

2 liters (I usually eat less/day) blended in a vitamix blender: water, carrots, oat milk, blueberries, mango, strawberries, peaches, flax seed meal, chia seeds, protein powder, powdered peanut butter (PB2),

For lunch I have a big salad,

I snack on apples and some very healthy crackers (Mary’s crackers)

Dinner is usually either a lentil vegetable curry mixed with brown rice, or I will have brown rice and sautéed vegetables with something like peanut sauce or teriyaki sauce.

And that’s it! That’s what I eat pretty much every day. Oh I make some bomb vegan tacos now and then. No fake meat just lots of amazing plants.

Anyway! I just wanted to share because I like this stuff and also I don’t eat a lot of grains. The brown rice could be replaced with lentils or something for pretty much no grains.

I really like the Nutrition Facts YouTube channel so poke around there if you’d like.

I see he has some videos on insulin:

https://youtu.be/AoHvkrcr6EM

https://youtu.be/UTxLHqeXZNQ

To your health!

I appreciate the sensitive feedback, its nice to have a dietary conversation on here that doesn’t degenerate into a binary equation.

Grains are a big issue, but other things like the apples, carrots, peaches, crackers bounce up my blood sugar as well and would cause me challenges and likely have to go back on extraneous insulin to prevent the small blood vessel issues that hyperglycemia causes diabetics.

For someone to restrict carbs on a vegan diet you are limited to basically cruciferous vegetables and certain berries. While I eat those things now, its the addition of the meat and dairy products that I eat that make enough variety for me to stick with it. Eating the same things every day is not something that I am able to do with success. That is the real test of any diet you take on…it has to be a real sustainable lifestyle change. For me that is the real benefit of keto, I have been able to make it that lifestyle change. It has definitely benefited me for my diabetes management and weight loss.

I am realistic to acknowledge that there may be some long term issue, but the fact that I can get to the point of having a long term issue is the magic here.

Yeah absolutely. The first video linked above talks about what type of vegan diet counteracts the post meal blood sugar rise. I linked two videos but I saw more videos when searching for “nutrition facts diabetes” or “nutrition facts insulin”. Just something to take a look at if you are curious. But again I’m happy you’ve got something that works!

Thanks for the links, I will give them a look. I’m generally a “don’t mess with success” kind of a guy, but there may come a time where I need to tweak and it’s always nice to have a different perspective. I would describe myself as a keto evangelist (But only describe my experience with it), I’m certainly not a keto zealot.

Keto folks and vegans tend to have those zealot reputations, but I definitely appreciate great dialog. Wish you well.

Yeah I get that! Having recently found something that works for my health (I can finally lose weight in a healthy, sustainable way even when I don't have time for exercise!) I wouldn't want to mess with this either. I am just so worried for people who eat a lot of meat, based on the studies I keep hearing about from the Nutrition Facts youtube channel. Wishing you well and thank you too!

It's extremely irritating that every single thread related to food is swarmed by people spouting anecdotes as if they were absolute truth, and worse, acting as if those personal stories were adequate responses to general claims like

> Red meat is absolutely devastating to the environment and water supply, with immense greenhouse gas emissions, deforestation, and polluted water tables

The above is an almost incontestable fact. Climate change and health experts both say we need to move western populations to a more plant based diet. But the moment someone brings that up, 25 people feel the need to jump in with their personal story about how eating nothing but red meat cleansed their vital bodily fluids. It's complete nonsense to respond to generalized scientific claims in this fashion and for some reason a lot of people don't realize this. Hacker News has a lot of people who think they can "hack" diet, aging, weight loss, what have you.

I have my own personal anecdote, of course. I lost close to 100 pounds on a vegetarian diet on which I tried to avoid low-nutrient sugary foods. Doing this changed the course of my life. But I'm not going to claim that this fact about me makes any difference whatsoever to scientific claims abut what it makes sense for individuals or populations to be eating. A vegetarian diet is not the only way to lose weight or live a healthy life.

Even if we take for granted that (contrary to all conventional medical wisdom) keto is the only way someone like you could live healthily, this simply has no impact whatsoever on the OP claim that red meat is bad for the environment and not necessary for the overwhelming majority of people to be eating.

> Even if we take for granted that (contrary to all conventional medical wisdom) keto is the only way someone like you could live healthily, this simply has no impact whatsoever on the OP claim that red meat is bad for the environment and not necessary for the overwhelming majority of people to be eating.

I agree. People are indeed mixing up 3 things that are only loosely related:

1. What is healthier.

2. What will cause you to lose weight (which is related to 1, but not exactly the same).

3. What is better for the planet.

The three are different goals, which might or might not be opposed to each other.

> It's complete nonsense to respond to generalized scientific claims in this fashion and for some reason a lot of people don't realize this.

Yet, you did. You are participating…you don’t realize this?

No one to my knowledge talking about keto here made this absolutist claim. I know I didn’t. I simply provided my experience and commented on the fact that because of my success, environmental factors for agriculture do not factor into my dietary equation. I don’t understand the need y’all have to create a strawman here.

Also, “conventional medical wisdom” for many years encouraged type 2 diabetics to eat a diet based on grains, fruits, and pasta (I still have the pamphlets that were given to me when first diagnosed) supplemented by many lovely and expensive pharmaceutical therapies for people to manage their diabetes. Three years ago, the American Diabetes Association reversed its opinion of low carb and keto, declaring them effective and safe strategies to manage type 2 diabetes via diet. So…effectively keto and low carb has become “conventional medical wisdom”.

Finally…you eat how you want, and I’ll eat how I want. I’m happy you found a diet that is successful for you. Keep eating it and don’t let some random person on the internet try and shame you about it for any reason, because it’s none of their damned business.

Being in a caloric deficit of 3500kcals x [the amount of body fat pounds you lost] over a given period of time is responsible for losing [the amount of body fat pounts you lost] over that period, no matter what kind of food you eat. Keto might be responsible for you to adhere and stick to that caloric deficit though, and it's good that it worked for you, but that's not what drove your weight loss (anecdotally, I lost around 150lbs and never cut any food group out of my diet, I just track calories and proteins)

As I said in another comment above, I credit keto for the weight loss, but understand that CICO is mechanics behind the loss. Keto did two things for me that allowed calorie restriction. One, fat rich foods create satiety with smaller portions, which allowed me to eat less. Two, stabilizing blood glucose eliminated hunger for me which allowed me to eliminate snacking between meals.

Carb restrictions allowed my body to manage the blood glucose with just my own body’s production of insulin, which eliminated extraneous insulin. Stable low blood glucose prevents small vessel damage which prevents most of the issues that are caused by type 2 diabetes

Aside from "personal anecdote does not override broad scientific evidence": Keto was not responsible for you losing weight or putting your diabetes into remission. Portion control / caloric restriction was. (And increased activity level you likely undertook at the same time.)

You had diabetes because you were likely obese and inactive. Not because you were eating bread, FFS.

I don't understand why it is so hard for people to understand the concept is literally just "calories in minus calories used / out = weight gain or loss." It is simple thermodynamics.

Keto/Paleo diets are among the least nutritious and most difficult to adhere to (most people who claim to follow keto/paleo don't, because it's extremely restrictive), consistently ranking among the worst diets health-wise by nutritional scientists. One of the best is the Mediterranean diet, one which involves no red meat.

> As for all the other stuff, all farming has environmental impact. You can argue degrees of impact,

That's literally what we're saying, and there's plenty of proof.

Beef uses ten times more resources than chicken: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/beef-uses-ten-...

You want to help the environment? Minimize your red meat consumption. That alone makes a huge difference. The second biggest difference you can make is minimizing energy use for personal transportation, and the third biggest difference is reducing energy consumption in your home (mostly heating/cooling.)

Where is your first sentence coming from though? Afaik keto works well by stabilizing and lowering insulin release with the effect of minimizing the storage of fat and carb cravings caused by sugar crashes. If you want to you can literally skip a meal without becoming grumpy, lightheaded or ravenous. Also: how can a diet composed of meat, fish, cruciferous and green leafy vegetables, cheese, nuts, berries, fatty fruits like avocado and olives, and healthy oils be one of the least nutritious diets around? A vegan diet is clearly scoring much worse on this topic I'm afraid. To give you an example in this study where different foods are evaluated based on their micronutrient density (in an attempt to combat malnutrition) you'll see that the top foods are all of animal origin: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnut.2022.80656...

Results: We find that the top sources of priority micronutrients are organs, small fish, dark green leafy vegetables, bivalves, crustaceans, goat, beef, eggs, milk, canned fish with bones, mutton, and lamb. Cheese, goat milk, and pork are also good sources, and to a lesser extent, yogurt, fresh fish, pulses, teff, and canned fish without bones.

The problem is that most folks don’t know what keto is…they assume we are all eating a pound of bacon a day and nothing else. Its a ridiculous notion.

Starting keto for me eliminated literally all processed foods. Every food I eat is is pretty much its whole form, excepting cheeses, butter, and olive oil. There are quite a few processed foods on the market called “keto”, but most folks I know on the diet tend to avoid or only use those very sparingly.

On a weekly basis I eat eggs, cheese, pork, beef, fish, chicken, berries, nuts, and cruciferous vegetables. Some olive oil, and some butter. If that is unhealthy…I am not sure what healthy is.

> Mediterranean diet, one which involves no red meat

There is no such thing, at least not for the people who live around the Mediterranean.

As an Italian I can assure you that the "blue zone Sardinians" don't go light on the pork meat, wine and cheese.

I know. People think Mediterranean food is just some fish with vegetables and olive oil, which couldn't be further from the truth.

It really depends. People living on the coast usually eats more fish, while inland people is more into pork. Olive oil is always used everywhere, just in the north there is a greater use of butter. Vegetables do get eaten but mostly as condiment of some other meat/fish or pasta. We indeed don't eat huge bowls of veggies as they make it sound. But we do eat a lot of seasonal fruit. And to add to the paradox, my region Umbria (which has the best longevity in Italy) is probably the Italian capital of cured meats.

Lebanese food is probably the closest to an ideal Mediterranean diet. It really is mostly vegetables with olive oil with a sprinkle of some meat and grains.

> Keto was not responsible for you losing weight or putting your diabetes into remission

Incorrect. Restricting carbohydrates absolutely was the reason my A1Hc went down and I came off insulin within 3 months of starting keto while I was still morbidly obese

> I don't understand why it is so hard for people to understand the concept is literally just "calories in minus calories used / out = weight gain or loss." It is simple thermodynamics.

When did I state the contrary? I didnt. What Keto did for me was allow my body to reach satiety without excess caloric intake and stabilize my blood sugar levels which help control hunger.

> Keto/Paleo diets are among the least nutritious and most difficult to adhere to (most people who claim to follow keto/paleo don't, because it's extremely restrictive), consistently ranking among the worst diets health-wise by nutritional scientists. One of the best is the Mediterranean diet, one which involves no red meat.

I lived in the Mediterranean area for a number of years, I can assure you…plenty of red meat was consumed where I lived. By the way…I have been on a keto diet for more than 5 years. My heath is good, my doctor has zero complaints and has suggested keto as an option to other T2 diabetics and overweight folks in his practice because of the success it has had for me and some of his other patients.

> You want to help the environment? I think my point was and is that I am not willing to do it at the expense of my own health. In terms of other things you mentioned, not sure why that is even part of the discussion.

Being in an already extremely unhealthy position is not the standard with which we should judge a particular diet.

Analogously, getting your stomach stapled would be bad for you if you had a health BMI but might be a good idea if you are 170lbs overweight.

Also, your basic premise that red meat is the only way to lose weight is false. There's no reason that an appropriate weight loss diet that excludes red meat could not be crafted.

> Being in an already extremely unhealthy position is not the standard with which we should judge a particular diet.

Ok. You judge it how you want, I said keto was successful for me. I made no universal declarations.

> Also, your basic premise that red meat is the only way to lose weight is false. There's no reason that an appropriate weight loss diet that excludes red meat could not be crafted.

Well I never said this. I said keto was successful for me.

BTW: Equating keto to “red meat” is like saying “vegan = lentils”. You should probably learn more about keto.

Edit: added some hard returns to clarify my responses to the quoted items.

If you aren't implying a universal declaration, isn't your anecdote kind of a non-sequitur response to a comment about the general nature of red meat agriculture?

No, I think your bias towards crop farming is reading more importance into the part of my comment that is actually the least important part to me. The most important part to me is the health benefits my diet provides me. The least important part to me is the environmental impact of producing those components of the diet that I eat.

If I was a vegan, and the vegan diet resulted in health benefits for me, but vegan agriculture processes had more environmental impact, I would still eat vegan…because what is most important to me is the health benefit I am receiving.

In this case I eat keto and receive health benefits from that diet that I am unwilling to give up just to satisfy the dogmatism of environmentalists who have a problem with pastoral farming.

Fair, makes sense, I understand your thinking now.

My response is that one person's dogmatism is another person's recognition of genocide. But I do understand that when you perceive that your life is at stake, the fate of rest of the world may not matter so much to you anymore.

> you perceive that your life is at stake, the fate of rest of the world may not matter so much to you anymore.

This little underhanded slap is hilarious. I love it how you folks always try to frame things in “a single person is responsible for the entire apocalypse” terms. Frankly, it’s why your argument struggles. You devolve into ridiculous moral absolutism.

Considering that conservatively almost 90% of the people on this earth eat meat, I’m pretty sure that any global catastrophe that may or may not arise from meat consumption will not fall solely at my feet.

And that's why these sorts of catastrophes occur. "Everyone else is doing something bad, so why should I stop?"

From my vantage point a catastrophe has not yet occurred and may not occur. What we have are a bunch of apocalyptic predictions from a tiny group of zealous people trying to force a behavior on a very large group of people.

Sounds too much like religion to me.

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