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Comment by gwoplock | Hacker News Reader

> The judge said Apple had "obliged the consumer to purchase a second product of its exclusive manufacture,"

This take is baffling to me. While I don't necessarily agree with Apple's decision to take the charger out and change to USB-C at the same time, this is an awful take. First of all there's a million and 1 USB-C chargers from many different manufactures. Second, USB-A to C adapters exist. Third, there are 3rd party manufacturers of USB-A to Lightning cables.

I'm confused how anyone could believe Apple is the exclusive manufacturer of anything required for an IPhone but the phone.

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Imagine you are young, and you've went out to buy your first phone only to find out that you can't actually use it without buying a second thing.

I'm going to guess that apple's products warn about the danger in using non-apple products - risks of damage and all that. Not wanting to ruin your new, expensive phone, you play it safe and just buy the matching charger, even though you feel like you should have been able to use the phone with everything that was in the box. For some years, Apple has warned about the dangers of third party accessories possibly ruining your stuff, after all. And I'm guessing the apple store employees aren't exactly going to recommend you buy other brand's stuff.

> I'm going to guess that apple's products warn about the danger in using non-apple products - risks of damage and all that.

Not that anyone checks this (and the UX isn't great because you can't see category listings directly), but Apple has a searchable database to see if your charger or whatever is approved:

https://mfi.apple.com/account/accessory-search

MFi doesn't apply to USB or USB-C chargers. See the first section of the FAQ: https://mfi.apple.com/en/faqs.html

Yeah it doesn't seem to be comprehensive. There are certainly USB-C chargers in the database, but maybe only the ones that are also sold with lightning cables?

> but maybe only the ones that are also sold with lightning cables

Correct.

I actually had almost that same experience back in the 90's when I bought my first gaming console with my own money. I bought a PS1, and Final Fantasy 8 with all the money I had save up for months to get, only to find out when I got home that I needed a non-included memory card to actually save my game. My disappointment was immeasurable.

Now technically, you're not required to save the game, and this don't need a memory card in the strictest sense, but the reality is, the console was near useless to me without it.

What was the longest you ever left it on for to “save” progress?

I remember a bit of a ruined Christmas when I got some toy that required batteries, with no batteries in the house and the next two days being public holidays.

I had the exact same experience as a young owner of a cool new remote controlled car. However, I think this example proves the point that Apple isn't the first or only company to exclude "required" components.

My RC car didn't have batteries and they were most certainly required. Should the RC company include batteries? Does it come down to "expendable" items, like batteries, are exempt from this rule?

Not sure about toys, but all electronic devices with remote control I ever bought had the batteries for the remote included. Same for all wall-mountable items, they always include some cheapo wall plugs and screws which most people throw away immediately (I usually keep them, although I never use them). Not including a charger does reduce the amount of electronic waste, but of course, if you buy an expensive phone (and even entry-level iPhones are expensive for the average Brazilian income) and the package doesn't even include everything you need to get started, I imagine you might feel cheated...

Do you have a discernible point? Young (and old) people have access to the internet to get informed on things like this.

I'm not sure what your point is here.

Sure, the internet exists. Sure, you'll find non-apple accessories.

What you'll also find are horror stories about cheaply made bits and information from Apple stating that you need to use approved accessories lest you void your warranty and/or ruin your device. Even though you'll find positive stuff, you'll be left with "ruin my device or use an apple product".

I've been an Android user since my first smart phone, but when AT&T dropped support for my last phone I decided to just give it a shot and get the new iPhone SE. I have a 12 year old MacBook that I got after an old job retired it but I never really bought into the Mac environment, so I thought maybe this could sell me. So I get the package, I open it up, ooh ahh, pull out the phone, pull out the USB-C cable, uh oh, and then lift up the cardboard liner annnnd nothing. The phone was charged, my girlfriend had cables and I could get a power supply overnighted, but I really sat there for a minute just thinking "man, fuck this." Not a good start.

"there's a million and 1 USB-C chargers from many different manufactures"

How many of these are compliant with specs? How would you know? If you fry your $1000 iPhone due to choosing incorrectly, will Apple refund you?

See joshvm’s reply here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31112241

MFi doesn't cover USB-C chargers: https://mfi.apple.com/en/faqs.html

If MFi did cover chargers, the iPhone warranty conditions would then be forcing you to buy a charger that is made by either Apple, or a company that's paying fees to Apple.

I love how in one hand HackerNews is gushing over how the EU might perhaps be planning to mandate USB-C ports in iPhones for the 50th time, and on the other hand HackerNews wants to live in a world where Apple users have to be compensated for only being able to use Apple chargers for their standard USB-C ports.

This story is not about standards or chargers, it can be shortened to

Hurr durr Apple bad LOL amirite!

> I'm confused how anyone could believe Apple is the exclusive manufacturer of anything required for an IPhone but the phone.

I wonder if it could be all the years of using proprietary connectors for everything? Can't feel any sympathy if they finally switch to USBC (only after being forced to by legislation) and people not realizing...

Outside of mac magsafe chargers, I can't think of an Apple device without a <connector>-to-USB-x cable in the box.

Has there ever been an iPhone that did not use a USB charging cable?

Perhaps it reflects my upbringing, but my general assumption is any product requires some unadvertised secondary purchase to function unless I can prove otherwise. Those items usually have much higher profit margins and thus businesses are motivated to use this 'model' where the original product is not fully functional without a secondary purchase.

> Perhaps it reflects my upbringing, but my general assumption is any product requires some unadvertised secondary purchase to function unless I can prove otherwise.

Perhaps it is your upbringing indeed. My own upbringing, however, suggests that all things should work out-of-the-box but perhaps with "minimal functionality". For example, your computer should work great out-of-the-box but you can install additional hardware and/or software to do more.

I bought an iPhone 13 pro max and I can only use the cable on my computer because I don’t have a usb c wall wart. I use the existing usb a lighting cables everywhere.

I hate that wall warts no longer ship with phones.

Why not just buy a wall wart for yourself then?

Why didn't it come with the phone?

Because almost all people have more wall warts and cables than phones.

Would it make you happier if there was a boxed version without a wall wart, and a boxed version with a wall wart for $20 more?

Or you could just buy a $20 wall wart and cable...

How about dropping the price $20 if it's not included...

Apple removed something that was and has been standard for over a decade and kept the price tag. If they're really doing it fOr ThE enVirONmeNt, shouldn't they also drop the price accordingly?

...no? How does paying $1000 or $980 affect the environment?

And they didn't "keep the price tag", because they're selling a completely different product than they were a decade ago. And regardless, they're allowed to set the price as whatever they want, for whatever reason.

I feel like complaints about this is just a psych study in loss aversion.

How does paying $1020 as opposed to $1000 affect the environment?

If you bought any other product and couldn't use it without buying additional accessories, you'd be pretty peeved. Should Sony remove the power cable from the PS5 since your PS4 power cable works and charge you an extra $20 for it?

How many people have a multiple unused PS4 power cables laying around their house? Is it like 90+% of PS5 buyers?

How do you know that they didn't drop the price?

"Because almost all people have more wall warts and cables than phones." Do you have a source to verify this claim? Anecdotally, I know 3 people that switched from old Androids to iPhones who could not charge their phones. You're on a tech forum, so I assume you keep up with the tech news. But, at least in my circle, most people don't. They buy phones and expect them to ship with the required accessories to operate them.

Do Android phones not charge with USB cables these days? Those chargers should be compatible with the USB cable that ships with an iPhone.

They should try reading the website then. Go try to purchase an iphone 13 and it clearly tells you "what's in the box" during the order flow, and then directly beneath it it says:

> As part of our efforts to reach our environmental goals, iPhone 13 and iPhone 13 mini do not include a power adapter or EarPods. Included in the box is a USB‑C to Lightning Cable that supports fast charging and is compatible with USB‑C power adapters and computer ports.

> We encourage you to re‑use your current power adapters and headphones that are compatible with these iPhone models. But if you need any new Apple power adapters or headphones, they are available for purchase.

And in the box is a USB-C to lightning adapter, so if they have a USB-C charger they can just use that. I'm guessing you said "old Androids" to imply that they are so old they're using micro usb, right?

I should start a company where I buy the phone and the wall charger from apple and put them both in a box and then sell it at a 10% markup to the people that get frustrated that nobody will sell them these two things in the same box.

I'm going through old stuff in preparation for a move and you wouldn't believe how many USB-A wall warts I've got shoved in the bottoms of boxes and drawers. IMO they should have kept it included for ~3 years of the USB-C transition because now people get a USB-C cable but only have old USB-A chargers, but long term I think it's the right move to stop including chargers with every new device.

You can go on Amazon and get a multi-port USB-C + 3x USB-A charger with 60W power delivery support for $22 [1]. I've been using a pair of these for years (one under my desk, one behind my nightstand) and they're really nice for charging multiple devices than the individual wall warts. Phone, laptop/tablet, headphones, watch, power banks. I like it a lot better than a power strip with four separate wall warts plugged in next to each other.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Charger-Nekteck-Desktop-Charging-Stat...

(One of my chargers is Nekteck branded, the other is Monoprice, but at least externally appears to be identical)

How many are ending up in landfills because people aren't using them?

Why waste money? Why does the iPad still ship with a wall wart?

The USB-C wall wart is pretty awesome, though. It charges the phone surprisingly fast if you're used to older tech. It's worth the upgrade. (You don't have to buy an Apple one, just one that supports USB-PD.)

https://www.usb.org/usb-charger-pd

Conversely, I did not like the old system where I would buy a new phone and get a new wall wart which I would proceed to toss into a drawer (since the old wart still works fine)

I'm ambivalent at this point. My primary chargers now are multi-port Anker USB-C chargers. I have a drawer of old USB charger blocks that I keep in case I need another one in a pinch, or if someone else wants an extra.

I don't know anything at all about the Brazilian courts system, but if it's possible, I rather expect Apple to appeal this and win if the basis of the decision is really tied-sales.

Apple is not going to honor your warranty if you use a bad third party charging cable and it damages your device, so yes you are restricted to their exclusive one.

Baffles me too. By the same logic, Apple should not be able to sell phone cases without including a free phone in them.

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