Comment by jwr | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jwr | Hacker News Reader

I've been using server-side rendering for many years now and I find it to be almost zero overhead at this point. Yes, I had to do some initial work to set things up, but these days I don't even remember it's there.

Most people make an assumption that in order to have SSR you need to run JavaScript (e.g. Node most of the time) on your backend. That is not a valid assumption.

I think the title of the article could benefit from adding "using Node", because much of the complexity described is something I do not encounter at all. I'm using Clojure and ClojureScript with Rum as a React interface. Much (if not most) of my code is in cljc files, which get compiled with Clojure (for JVM on the backend) or ClojureScript (for JavaScript on the frontend). And the ClojureScript advanced compilation takes care of only including what is strictly necessary in the frontend compiled JavaScript.

I mean, sure, you need to be careful not to do stupid things like trying to read from files, but otherwise I just don't encounter much friction. And I reap the benefits of using a single language for both backend and frontend, with most of my data model (e.g. business logic) code written only once, with SSR being a nice cherry on top.

This is a really nice combo, I agree. But… I think it’s safe to say it’ll probably remain niche forever.

I wish there were more stacks like Clojure/Script.

While I’m wishing, I’d love to have a modern ML with simple tooling, a good stdlib like Go (with a high performance http server baked in), and a good full stack story that doesn’t produce a 1MB “hello world”, and doesn’t require 1K dependencies. Does anyone know what the closest thing to this is these days?

It's still a long way from being complete, but I'm working on something like that[0]. Eventual plans are to have good Rust library interop (e.g. bindings to hyper for http) while also being able to compile to Wasm (to run on an erlang-style distributed runtime / the browser). The language is currently interpreted, but one I get typechecking working, I should be able to merge in the Wasm codegen backend I'm working on (with eventual plans for LLVM). Current compiler has zero external dependencies.

Language itself could be described as a mix of OCaml, Scheme, and Lua. Currently working on the hygienic procedural macro system and system injection through algebraic effects.

[0]: https://github.com/vrtbl/passerine

For the next year(s), take a look at Roc (https://roc-lang.org). It is being developed by some folks from the Elm community, but it's focused on backend/CLI.

> While I’m wishing, I’d love to have a modern ML with simple tooling, a good stdlib like Go (with a high performance http server baked in), and a good full stack story that doesn’t produce a 1MB “hello world”, and doesn’t require 1K dependencies.

I don't have anything close, but I would like the exact same thing. Especially since OCaml and F# both have JS compilers, you could easily have a fullstack app written with this language. I think your best bet might be either OCaml or F# these days if the ML part is the most important one, or Go if the rest is the most important part.

> This is a really nice combo, I agree. But… I think it’s safe to say it’ll probably remain niche forever.

"I don't like fruit — they are bitter and taste bad"

"Here's a kiwi: it's sweet and tastes great!"

"I think it's safe to say it'll probably remain niche forever. I wish I could get sweet fruit!"

I don't know about others, but I don't get paid for non-nicheness of tools I use (nor, incidentally, for the small size of my "hello world"). I get paid by users who use the software that I develop, and I choose tools that allow me to effectively deliver good quality software. So I guess my decision process might be slightly different — but overall I have no reason to complain, because I'm doing great so far :-)

Rum is amazing. I also use it for my latest Clojure/ClojureScript projects since you can move quite effortlessly from HTML templates to a hydrated web app should the need arise.

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