Costs of California’s troubled bullet train rise again, by estimated $5B
latimes.com
latimes.com
Like what?
Someone complained that thing was a waste of money when it was built.
Of course, one person’s pork is another person’s dinner, so it’s unlikely to stop.
I’m not sure this project would have been viewed quite as favorably as the Big Dig: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravina_Island_Bridge though there are many who characterize the Big Dig itself as a massive pork barrel project.
If it is transit related, then it is a waste of time.
If it is auto and truck related, then it is not a waste of time.
Transit projects get a lot more “help” to make them viable because the lawsuit folks think that they are more green and for the greater good.
Auto projects (roadways and highways) go through much more scrutiny and evaluation than transit, so you better be sure to have your i’s dotted on these.
Which means there is much more analysis to justify a need for the roadway. Transit items are given as much lee way as possible to make it work.
In transportation terms the main issue is that you plan something that will be ready after many years, when it will be ready (if it ever will) things have changes and so the once theoretically good infra is now not needed/nor useful anymore...
" In 2021, the solar industry generated more than $33 billion of private investment in the American economy": So the entire solar industry is 1/3 of this single rail line.
You can't just casually call it "inflation" when you're spending significant percentages of the annual budget on a single train line and somehow it's still not enough. 1/6 of the entire solar industry is not "inflation".
Amtrak requested $4 billion in COVID relief from the government to maintain its national rail network, and $1.5 billion to "expand rail service"[2]. That entire amount you just called "inflation" for a single rail line, and they're running 26 lines all over the country. Also: Even if the construction costs somehow end up comparable, Amtrak's entire annual revenue is $2.3 billion. How long's it going to take to pay back $105 billion with this single rail line, if the entire Amtrak network would take 50 years to pay this one line back ignoring all operating costs?
[1] https://www.cbo.gov/publication/55342 [2] http://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/04/Amtrak-Ge...
For example, try to get from the bay area to Chicago. Prices claim to start around 500 bucks for a non bed ticket for the 2.5 day trip. But it's actually not possible to get an itinerary that doesn't include traveling on a weekend.
Quote: The current cost estimate to deliver the 500-mile system linking San Francisco to Los Angeles/Anaheim via the Central Valley ranges from $69.01 to $99.9 billion.
From here https://hsr.ca.gov/about/capital-costs-funding/
You can compare that to the BART Silicon Valley Extension Phase II. Budget for that is 6.9 billion for a six mile extension. Which the press is studiously ignoring.
- more pleasant commutes over greater distances
- reduced housing market pressure near major offices
- reduced noise and air pollution compared to motor vehicles (for the same carrying capacity)
But how is it so expensive?
that is a classic megaproject which will be expanding in cost until there is no more expansion is possible and then a bit more.
Lets imagine some numbers - at 100B cost and say $5B/year expenses, it would need $7B/year of tickets for 50 years ROI, ie. it would need $20M/day, which is 100000 passengers/day at $200/ticket, like a 100 trains/day with 1000 riders each.
https://www.apta.com/wp-content/uploads/Resources/resources/...
Thanks to deficit spending they will be paying for it.
The only people getting a gift here are the ones fleecing the government to run up the costs. They get their money now and all our kids and grandkids get the bill.
If you want to ask the size of those benefits, imagine London or New York without their underground/subway systems. It is a big deal and can't just be counted by ticket prices!
Actual growth might not, but as most infra spending is financed with fixed rate bonds, a couple more years of Biden’s 9.6% inflation will take a nice bite out of those costs in future dollars.
OTOH, building the HSR between Berlin and Munich (~500 km) was also about EUR 10 billion, which I guess makes it a bargain. These things aren't comparable, though.
Anyway, Stuttgart 21 is a highly convoluted project, one that was really pushed hard by politicians. The last bit makes me usually skeptical in itself.
The only reason why the NYC subway, and the Chicago L are there today is because they were built before all of these processes existed. You could not build anything like them in modern day.
You can not build it in the USA. London is about to open the newly built Elizabeth line, which cuts through the city with 60 miles of tunnels. Modern Metro/Subway infrastructure can be built in densely populated areas like Chicago and NYC. It's a political issue, not an engineering one.
Precisely. Asia is on a roll in this regard.
The Californian track being twice as long, how the heck did it end up costing ten (10!) times as much??
California taxes are a tax on poor people, exclusively.
California voters will just authorize a new bond issuance anyway.
Oh, and you need to move to another state, not another country.
https://hsr.ca.gov/high-speed-rail-in-california/project-sec...
This is a faster-than-CalTrain-but-that's-not-saying-much rail connection from SF to the Central Valley, a bullet train down to Bakersfield, and then a similarly slow trek into LA.
You can spend real money on construction that causes a minimum of inconvenience. Say you want to build on a road median, and then someone imposes a requirement that at most one lane be closed during the construction. The land isn't a problem, doing the construction while closing only one lane is expensive.
There are other variants. Basically, every time either the route or the construction is constrained, the cost goes up. You have to enter a city at one spot instead of 10m/100m further east? You have to build a bridge at one spot instead of 5km further west? I know examples where both of those caused well over 100% cost increases.
http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/images/construction/vdcavig... shows a part of TGV track being lifted into place. TGV is cheap high-speed track, particularly if one is willing to leverage the experience the French have built. That seems to be for a bridge, so not cheap, but the width ought to match the usual track width.
Would that fit in a road median? It seems implausible.
If not, then it's a fair assumption that building something narrower will add to the cost. The French didn't spend extra to build wider than optimal tracks, after all.
EDIT: I found http://www.railfaneurope.net/tgv/track.html and… wow.
When the system was done, a prof I knew did a cost-benefit analysis and looked for an optimal way to proceed. His result, clear and solid: Brick up the entrances to the subway and otherwise just f'get about it. That is, even given the subway already built and for free, just the continuing operating costs would exceed any reasonable list of benefits.
The idea of cost-benefit analysis goes way back to the early 1900s: People saw that could have water resource projects that would let a desert bloom. So, there were a lot of such proposals. So, to filter the proposals people worked out the technique of cost-benefit analysis and wrote into some laws that for any such water projects the benefits had to exceed the costs -- that requirement filtered out nearly all the water projects. Subways and trains stand to be filtered similarly.
Now we probably all know the classic economic theory of density, that state cities are needed because people together innovate more, create economy of scale etc, unfortunately too many forget the second part of such theory: a certain amount of density is needed, being more dense just skyrocket costs and create so many issue to nullify any eventually remaining benefit.
High speed trains, and in general ANY big infrastructure fall in this very case, because density does not mean just big cities but also infrastructures to serve them. A big railroad, commercials one included like the Chinese project across central Asia to Europe, means serve a high density area from production of another density area. Too dense in both case to give benefits stronger than their downsides.
IMVHO while for a very big timeslice of human history classic cities was the best density on average, now the best density is a sparse Riviera where resident and production are intermixed and near enough, with just few punctual dense complex for certain production and services like big complex for automotive/aerospace/naval/defense, hospitals, campus, ... but the rest sparse enough to have anything reasonably near (lower transportation costs) but with room to evolve at a slow and continuous peace. Sure, we are many in the world and some countries simply do not have even enough land to afford such model, but we see how big cities fails and we see how dense area fails equally... It's about time to realize that a certain kind of economic development is not viable anymore and we need another one, with some aspects already known from the past and some others brand new.
Just take metro trains: they are the key to city mobility, the sole that work efficiently at a city scale. Super expensive and move gazillion of people per day... Well, most of them are from the tertiary sector, witch means that most of them can WFH without need such super-expensive transportation means, many others are workers affluent of the tertiary sectors so people who need another job if WFH spread. Only a small cohort remain benefiting from metro trains and for them due to the size there is no reason to have nor cities nor metro.
Change is always difficult and always makes errors and horrors. USA have tried to push car sails the suburb model and was a failure, but not because of the suburb, just because suburb are just residential and workspace are far away. Intermixing them and pushing WFH solve suburb issue, in theory. It does not in practice because suburb themselves are dense enough to have tough time reshuffling from purely residential to commercial and residential mixed. And that's why we need less dense design: because such design might or might not work today and might or might not change tomorrow, if there is enough physical space evolution is possible, if not costs skyrocket not much differently than actual cities or suburbs. Things change, being able to adapt is the key, and it's not a new buzzword like "resilience" is the classic Charles Darwin theory of Evolution: not the strongest, not the today's better but the more able to adapt will survive.
See also "the big dig"
There is no incentive for them to reduce costs. Any time some change or obstacle comes up - well, let's spend another $500M, that will take care of it.
And people still think we should place more of the economy under the control of the government?
Natural monopolies only lead to rent seeking when in private hands. You'll pay even more than for inefficient government action. There's no incentive for them to lower their prices either.
Privatization only works when you consider negative externalities and have a competitive market.
For something like this you need a working democratic oversight. The people have to be the incentive to make it work.
Similarly, the early tracks in Europe were also often privately funded. Most were nationalized in the first half of the 20th century. Some countries tried privatizing tracks again (the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, ..) but quickly found out it didn't work.
But I agree. Major infrastructure -roads, trains, electricity/energy, water, high-speed communication- should not be privatized, because they should simply work. And be maintained. And get upgraded on time. And they all involve planning time frames that span tens of years.