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> general purpose computing devices

not so general, you can pretty much only run programs allowed by the mothership, and if some neural net decides you can be locked out of your phone forever

You are purposely taking the well known and understood term "general purpose computing device" out of context and using it as a polemical statement to push an agenda.

Nah. It's not outrageous to say that a criteria for being a "general purpose computing device" is that I should be able to run whatever code I want on it.

I say this as someone who's an iPhone user, and I'm perfectly happy with my iPhone. But I wouldn't call it a general purpose computing device honestly. The Android phone I used many years ago, for all its flaws, would have fit that description much better IMO.

> It's not outrageous to say that a criteria for being a "general purpose computing device" is that I should be able to run whatever code I want on it.

In fact, it is outrageous not to say so.

"general purpose" for me means I can set the program counter somewhere and run my code

in general the term vaguely means 'this computer can perform many different tasks' but can an iphone perform a task you want, but apple did not allow?

Yes, you can run your own code on an iPhone.

You can't run arbitrary binaries, but you can run whatever code you want.

Are we talking about the same phone?

The iOS kernel will literally kill your process unless you have an Apple-approved certificate.

The kernel will also block you from accessing any OS service that’s not allowlisted in your certificate.

And it’s impossible to obtain a certificate from Apple that allows you to fork a subprocess, access the filesystem, or run a custom hardware driver.

> You can't run arbitrary binaries, but you can run whatever code you want.

...isn't the definition of "running whatever code you want" equivalent to "running arbitrary binaries"? How else could you "run code" if not as an "arbitrary binary"?

Is this drawing a distinction between "you can run any code you build yourself and sign using the elaborate Apple toolchain" vs "you can run arbitrary binaries"?

you also have to be approved apple developer to do that

You completely lost me at "they're general purpose computing devices."

This is not even remotely a reasonable definition of today's smartphones.

I beg to differ. They might not be suitable for "power users" or Stallman but for most people they're fine. I've got at least a few non-technical friends that haven't owned a laptop or PC in years and do all their "computing" from their phone and maybe an iPad. The only reason my parents still have a computer is because they like to look at their photos on a large screen, but outside of that one use-case (which could be solved in other ways) they barely ever turn their PC on.

You can bank, search, chat, consume content, and shop from one device - it doesn't get much more "general purpose" than that.

I beg to differ. They are higly optimized attention seeking monsters with side "benefits". They will turn on you thr momemnt google/apple so choose.

Right but that doesn't make them any less useful as a general purpose computing device - they still serve that function perfectly well with or without them slowly eroding our mental capacity and stealing all our data.

> They will turn on you thr momemnt google/apple so choose.

> Right but that doesn't make them any less useful

Sounds like a contradiction to me. If you can't do anything you want with your phone but Google/Apple can, it must make it less useful for you.

Shop at higher prices for smartphone users.

You fundamentally misunderstand and misrepresent what is commonly meant by "general purpose." General purpose is not merely a set of specific purposes that a lot of people are into. General purpose means I can freely change it if I want to.

I cannot find a single source that agrees with you on that. The first 3 pages of Google when I search "general purpose computer definition" all show results that largely equate to;

"A general-purpose computer is one that, given the appropriate application and required time, should be able to perform most common computing tasks."

Interesting, my search absolutely showed definitions closer to mine (or more specifically, definitions for which my definition is a necessary prequisite), e.g.

https://cacm.acm.org/magazines/2021/3/250710-the-decline-of-...

Gotta love personalised search results! For a laugh I tried searching it in a few different engines and came up with mixed results - some similar to my definition and some similar to yours.

I'm starting to get the feeling it has a "mainstream" definition and more of a "people in the know" definition. A lot of the sources that matched my definition tended to be from more non-technical, mainstream outlets like the BBC; https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zkrr97h/revision/1

FWIW I like your definition better, I think closed off environments in the long run will be worse for everyone (except the people that make them).

I think this is just the classic problem of two engineers talking past each other. I think by "general purpose computing devices" the other poster means "general-*use* computing devices".

Many phones are very much unlocked, even though support for other operating systems is limited. However, even Android can be installed as a standalone OS with no Google crap.

If you want them to be general purpose computers straight from the store, yeah, that's not happening. But you still own the hardware and can change the software, again, on many, sadly not all, devices.

> How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10 years? Twice.

Me too! And I'm a mobile engineer! My partner only recently updated their iPhone 6s, and I upgrade when the need arises, not when there's something new and shinny on the market.

Running Lineage on AT&T has drastically reduced the number of compatible phones due to the hard requirement for VoLTE (voice over LTE) on a small set of authorized phones.

I had just upgraded my OnePlus 3 to a 5 when this was announced, so I purchased a Pixel 3a XL by the deadline (which fortunately has VoLTE in AOSP).

I moved my phone to Verizon for a few reasons, but Lineage struggles with VoLTE and this is a big reason for old phones in a drawer.

> No, smartphones are kinda magical. They take better snapshots than my first DSLR, they play games at higher fidelity than my first gaming PC

I think the problem with smartphones doesn't lie so much in hardware as it does the software ecosystem. Yeah, my phone also takes better snapshots than my first DSLR and plays games better than my first gaming PC (from 2001) -- and yet, it can't run the OfferUp app or Google Maps for more than 5 minutes without freezing up.

>> How many times have you had to replace a phone in the past 10 years?

>Twice. My first smartphone was the Nexus 4 way back in 2012. I moved on to iPhone with iPhone 6s, and then upgraded to iPhone 12 Mini last year because I was enraptured by the faster performance, better camera, and small size.

I had to replace my Thinkpad 0 times in the past 10 years, and my phone 2 times as well. I also bought devices from companies who promised software longevity. But why can't I replace my phone 0 times in 10 years like my Thinkpad?

The same here. Bought a 12 Pro Max last year, expect to still be using it by 2024/25