Vancouver proposes 10k-dollar annual fee for gas stations without EV charging
driving.ca
driving.ca
I would say charging at work (during the day, using solar energy exported into the grid). Or at night, capturing off-peak power generation is the new charge experience.
Currently, DC Fast Charging is very expensive to build out and using them frequently reduces battery capacity over time.
I don't know the numbers offhand, but Vancouver has a pretty low rate of driving commutes compared to most North American cities.
Colocate level 2 chargers (~10-15kw) where cars dwell for hours at a time, put Fast DC chargers where people need to eat or use a bathroom. Even a 120v outlet would be fine for use cases like long term parking at an airport, which fully charges an EV in ~4-5 days.
Shopping and meals fit really well into the (traveling) charging use case. I think a cafe would work as well, but I haven't visited a successful "charge cafe" yet.
Of course, the most convenient charging is just plugging it in overnight at home, but travel stops are real use cases, too...
Toyota has it right - there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible. The charging question is just one of them.
https://www.amazon.com/MUSTART-Portable-Charger-Electric-Cha...
Bare minimum the apartment building can work to install wall outlets in the garage, or very long extension cords.
Video: https://www.amazon.com/vdp/006d5bc8225646d086bb5afa191e52d8?...
That’s not asking for a lot from a building.
They do need an electrician to run the new wires to the garage though.
My comment was more focused on the gas stations, apartments, condos, etc that others have brought up.
Most gas stations shouldn't have car chargers, because even with fast chargers, who really wants to be spending 30-60 minutes at one? Fast chargers should be at restaurants and other places people will naturally want to be for a bit of time. Only gas stations that should have chargers are really things like truck stops, where they already have some amenities.
It's definitely asking for a lot. For my building's parking structure, that would require at least $5 million worth of upgrades to the electrical system, and we're not even the biggest condo building on the block.
Not sure what Toyota has to do with anything (can't find them mentioned in the article), but I think that problem is a catch-22 problem. No one is gonna want to solve any issues about EV roll out unless people start using EV, but no one is gonna want to use EV unless there is realistic attempts on solving the issues.
They're probably referencing the fact that Toyota has hedged their bets on hydrogen fuel instead of electric. As far as I'm aware though, that hedge has been going poorly for them.
Parking meters are not comparable infrastructure. They often run on a small solar cell with almost no maintenance burden. Charging stations require a substantive amount of power and regular maintenance. Installing street chargers essentially requires entirely net new infrastructure.
Because the process for pumping gas is fundamentally different from charging. If filling up a gas tank took hours, then you likely would see this sort of infrastructure. Also, it doesn't need to be the city directly. They can contract this to a private provider.
This seems like a huge opportunity considering how much Street parking there is. Several interesting approaches come to mind for providing this, from running lockable (hardware and software) charging cables to empower residents to set up charging infrastructure of their home (plus legal changes to designate those spaces for those who improved them; to public infrastructure in the curbs.
"there are huge issues to be solved before widespread roll out of EV is possible."
I agree. One of the biggest issues in my mind is just deciding if we want to standardize and create infrastructure as a society, or if we want to empower individuals to make the changes they require.
If it's really true that "Most people in Canada" don't have a home, then do you really think that the 66 gas stations in Vancouver can accommodate all those people?
Then who pays for the electricity? At the moment at least, you're pretty likely to be the only one with an EV, so either everyone is paying strata fees to charge your car for you, or you're in some boutique agreement outside the strata and they put in a meter just for you, or you've payed for the whole thing on your own. Forget it entirely if you're renting.
The other reason I raise this, is that it could be more beneficial to fine the landlords or strata rather than gas stations. After all, if the goal is to increase charging infrastructure, there is more potential capacity here than at 66 gas stations and the paradigm for charging at longer duration parking spaces (home, work, restaurants) is more effective than charging at a short stop location (gas sations).
Perhaps these needs additional tech. Something like a cable run from the house to the parking spot, enclosed under a grate that can be unlocked by the resident, as well as a lockout switch inside the house. Of course it could be better for the infrastructure to be public or for the city to contract with a private provider.
[edit] In fact Surrey, while not Vancouver proper, comes in at the #4 spot for the highest percentage of millennials who own their homes. [1]
[1] https://edisonfinancial.ca/millennial-home-ownership-canada/
If they don't, that's on the owners who vote for and run the strata.
Not legal to reject things out of hand in Ontario at least:
* https://www.condoauthorityontario.ca/resources/electric-vehi...
* http://condoadviser.ca/2021/06/ev-charging-stations-condos-m...
Not perfect, but simply saying "no" is not an option. New build has to accommodate EV charging (both condos and 'regular' residential (220V line pre-plumbed)).
That issue will only get worse as housing gets denser, so some kind of publicly accessible charging will be necessary. Maybe that means apartment blocks, units and townhouses start putting in outlets near the street, but I can see that getting really tricky. For street parking you have the vandalism aspect, which is kind-of working for corporations who can stomach the cost, but I doubt it would fly for landlords.
A lot of people in Vancouver can't!
For example they may live in an apartment building whose strata council refuses to install chargers in the garage, or they may live in somebody's basement suite and not have access to a garage at all.
(I'd rather charge my car at a cafe, though.)
True, but then why fine these gas stations? It would make more sense to fine landlords for not providing charging infrastructure under some circumstances (on request, or above some unit number, or even just free market of renters being willing to pay more for a rental with charging infrastructure).
"or they may live in somebody's basement suite and not have access to a garage at all."
True, I was thinking of the public chargers for this as they are likely street parking.
"I'd rather charge my car at a cafe, though."
I agree.
Times like these, you need to consider if you had a spare 50A (we didn't) would you spend that on another drier or an EV charger?
It costs the city nothing, and is a revenue stream from those which don't comply. Win #1.
It allows tourists, travellers a place to charge, which they know is maintained, and works, and is enroute to somewhere.
There is no downside here, for the city.
Emphasis mine. Sure. The city could fine every store with parking spaces for not supplying charging infrastructure. We also have to see what those fines do to the businesses. It's possible that many gas stations decide to close or substantially raise their prices to cover the increased costs.
Basically, the city isn't the only stakeholder.
The gas station needs to pay a design firm + engineers to submit plans to the city for permitting to construct the new EV charging location, they have to pay the electrical utility to increase its service, they need to pay more for electricity every month, they need to buy commercial car chargers and pay an electrical contractor thousands to install them. The gas station therefore likely has to raise prices on either its gas or its other products and services, hurting locals who can't afford EV cars to the benefit of the better off who likely already have car chargers installed in the garages of their expensive homes. Bear in mind also that they're not guaranteed to make money off the car charging, this is the city deciding their business plans for them. The cost of building a charging station takes away what could've been a car wash, more retail space, a mechanic's garage, etc. The city should be offering tax incentives, not punitive fines IMO.
There are no immediate downsides. I'm not going to pretend to predict the future in it's entirety, but requiring any business to maintain any sort of additional infrastructure seems like it will lead to additional costs. I'm not saying that as a reason to avoid ever doing it, but let's not pretend it doesn't have consequences. This either means more expensive gas station visits (for at least some people), or it means fewer gas stations exists due to being priced out from the additional costs. Now, how those changes affect the local economy at large is anyone's guess.
Also, the demand grows as climate change hits Vancouver hard -- check out the heat dome last summer. Spending money on an AC was laughable luxury before but now?
The rest of the city is supplied well, it's just the peninsula which doesn't have enough. It is also one of the densest places in Canada.
As I noted, the other substations which are not on the peninsula are fine.
Look: https://www.google.com/maps/search/bc+hydro+substations+in+v... the Dal Grauer Substation is so old it is a heritage building!
Agreed, and for more reasons than those you mention. This would increase costs of gas on poorer people (who can't afford a shiny new EV) to subsidize more convenient charging for wealthier people (who aren't even buying gas). It's effectively an additional tax on gasoline that gas station owners will pass on to all their customers who do buy gas.
There's nothing inherently wrong with a gas station having one or two charging stations, but if EV charging is in demand then those spots are going to be filled most of the time. Which means that it's not a reliable service for the people who want it; better to go to a larger lot with more spaces. (And this proposal also includes mandates for sites with more than 60 parking stalls to get EV charging, which I think makes more sense.)
There's a natural tendency to want to shoehorn petroleum-based infrastructure into the world of electrically powered vehicles, but it kind of feels like trying to bolt a catalytic converter onto a horse. I think gas stations should just be allowed to die out and be replaced by other kinds of businesses based on what the market demands.
Sitting at a gas station for a half hour to an hour sounds more like punishment for having an EV.
An urban Target store in my area has a row of chargers along one wall of its parking garage. A carrot, stick, or both to encourage that in other places with large parking areas, especially ones where people are likely to stay awhile, would certainly seem like the way to go.
I could fill it every 4 days and be fine, so I did just that. I found one broken air compressor hose, which I mentioned to the station owner. He ordered a replacement immediately.
Our of maybe 50 uses, while travelling all over California, staying in a dozen different places, it seems to me that your reports are inaccurate.
(I prefer to fix my car at home, with mechanics I know.)
Gas stations are already setup as places where cars are coming and going frequently. As cars move from gas to electric, the use of these places transitions smoothly.
It's a pigouvian tax: tax the things we want less of; in this case gas stations without chargers. I always kind of like those.
Could work.
Also for EVs if there is a lot of money in charging networks, wouldn't the market just "work" for that. I'm kind of sick of liberal politics (but not liberal ideas - like people buying EVs and supporting a clean environment).
I’m going to start creating leases for renters where they have a choice to pay less overall rent, but they pay property taxes, or they don’t pay property taxes but pay more in rent.
So for example lease will be $2000 a month, or $1600 a month plus property taxes that are currently $300 a month.
I think every landlord should do this.
I can't tell if you are joking or not.
Note that in Canada, cities get lots of funding perks. One is a portion of the GST.
Convenience is greatly sacrificed if only one charger is installed — it'll be a gamble if your local gas station has their charger free, etc., which makes planning on when to charge tricky. As many gas stations are likely to only invest the bare minimum to avoid this fee, this could become a common frustration if this goes ahead.
Are they going to use that money to install EV charging stations?
Basically, they expect the majority of gas stations and parking lots to just pay the fee instead. Pretty solid indictment of the economics of installing chargers when even a 10k/year penalty isn't enough to tip the scale.
It's true that it would be better for the user of the electric vehicle to have some stuff to do nearby the spot where they are charging, but in this hypothetical situation where a gas station is so small that they can barely cram a single charging spot in, presumably the gas station is also located walking distance from plenty of shops, parks and other facilities.
>> Too many different start batteries
Okay... that's because there's no standard. But isn't that why standards are developed? Could you explain why developing a standard and a limited number of battery sizes is not feasible?
>> Risk of storing and handling them improperly
Could you explain why batteries are riskier than petrol?
And while we're discussing this China's decided to try it out [0].
[0] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/inside...
I think it is too early to go stick on everyone. Let alone some unfortunate malicious compliance that doesn’t help.
Actual outcome: fewer gas stations
My first reaction is that this would hurt poor people, who can’t afford to buy new EVs. That doesn’t meet my definition of “good”.