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Comment by kanbara | Hacker News Reader

in europe there are many taxi companies that have started to do uber app features and prepayment and all the jazz that make uber so great.

the main issues i have with uber are that it's now almost more expensive than taxis, there's almost no regulation, the drivers are taken advantage of / not making profit and also not getting proper benefits. just because taxis suck doesn't mean uber should replace them.

government should invest in better public transit, more livable and walkable cities, and less car ownership instead of propping up either taxis or uber.

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> in europe there are many taxi companies that have started to do uber app features and prepayment and all the jazz that make uber so great

For me this is the real evolution, and what was needed all along. I've used the apps you're talking about in Europe and Asia, and they're great.

> just because taxis suck doesn't mean uber should replace them.

Hear, hear. I don't miss the old taxi model, and Uber/Lyft came in with simple, strong improvements in usability and payments, as users outlined above. But after 12 years, Uber has shown itself to be what it is: an expensive, shitty vampire.

I actually don't get what the differentiating factor is for Lyft, but based on the ads they ran on a podcast I was listening to, it seems to be "Uber, but at least somewhat trying to be socially responsible." If that's a viable niche, tells you something about Uber I guess.

> in europe there are many taxi companies that have started to do uber app features and prepayment and all the jazz that make uber so great.

Yeah, Uber never got a foothold in Germany, but they brought us apps and card payment. Before that, it was cash only.

That said, cabs (both, actual taxis and rentable cars with drivers [0]) also seem to be far better here. The cab companies own the cars, not drivers, they are modern and clean and usually premium brands. Just from what I’m reading about the situation in the USA, it seems to be a clusterfuck, and I know from experience that in South Africa, cabs get you crappy overpriced cars that are almost falling apart while Uber gives you a clean private vehicle.

[0]: I’m not sure if this is a distinction in other countries, taxis are allowed to pick up people, and have some limited public transport rights, e.g. certain streets might be bus and taxi only, while rentable cars (German: Funkmietwagen, Personenmietwagen, or Minicar) can only be ordered in advance and have to follow all rules like a private vehicle. Taxis pay more taxes.

> Yeah, Uber never got a foothold in Germany, but they brought us apps and card payment.

Germany also worked hard to cripple Uber. Even its per-existing rules are hostile towards much of the innovation Uber brought to market.

One particularly egregious example is forcing each Uber to "return to garage" between each trip, even if another customer is on its path and requesting a ride. This makes the service considerably more expensive, increases wait times and needlessly burns gas to send cars with no passengers back to their "garage".

To my point of view, it's insane protectionism. In recent weeks, the policy can even be seen as indirectly subsidizing an invasion.

(see: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/uber-ride-hailing-future)

Protecting drivers from predatory companies like Uber is a good thing

> In recent weeks, the policy can even be seen as indirectly subsidizing an invasion.

That seems a bit farfetched. They don't run on natural gas.

They run on gasoline.

About 98% of oil consumed by Germany is imported. Which country is the largest source?

> drivers are taken advantage of / not making profit and also not getting proper benefits.

I hear people say this all the time. None of those people are Uber drivers.

I can't speak to Europe but that's been my experience in California.

This kind of "we know what's good for you" elitism is that turns people off from the left and why I don't want to be associated with the democratic party despite my voting history.

I spoke to Uber drivers last time I was in Miami and they are being squeezed there: ride fees went up as with pretty much anywhere, but they also lowered their share %. So Uber making more money and everyone else is screwed. I can definitely attest to the ride cost hike: what used to be a $10-15 ride from the Airport to the Beach is now $40.

In AZ, both uber/lyft are short of drivers. The gas price meant a lot of drivers couldn't make any money.

Also, god help you if you want a ride more then 10-15 miles...Phoenix is huge, but for some reason, drivers don't seem to like long rides.

I was getting half-convinced that gig workers were getting shafted, until I talked with a doordash/ubereats driver for twenty minutes. She said she was making significantly more money than she had as a waitress, and was finally getting ahead. At the same time it was more pleasant work and she didn't have to fight about what shifts she could work.

are you saying the drivers are too stupid to calculate they are making net money?

that’s quite the (insulting) claim!

That's not what kanbara said.

Most people are bad at calculating financial implications of decisions before them. There are lots of reasons for this (limited finance/math knowledge, impenetrable language in which conditions are layed out...) or actually don't have better options so they can literally be taken advantage of. Some may be even stupid, but there's no need or reason to reach for that as an explanation.

> Most people are bad at calculating financial implications of decisions before them.

This is such a horrible take and reeks of nanny state oversight. Millions of small business owners make these decisions all the time. Markets have a way of quickly rooting out those who aren’t making good decisions. Government has proven itself to be far less financially competent.

This may be true in some cases- lots of drivers -many of who are new immigrants-see this as the quickest way to get a job and don’t realize they have no worker protections like paid sick leave, worker’s compensation, that employees get or the tax implications of being a contractor vs employee

I said absolutely nothing about government.

Millions of small business owners, me including, make these kind (and other) mistakes all the time for various reasons. We are all very much fallible and don't go out of business because most of the time our mistakes don't have huge consequences and everyone else makes their own mistakes too.

The implication is partially two fold:

(1) Most business owners ("millions of small business owners"), especially those that are independent LLC owners, do not fully understand the cost implications of their business's financial health. By their very nature, they do not have dedicated financial expertise, typically lack strong accounting principles, etc. My sister, a personal trainer, is a great example of this. I had to explain to her what "writing off" expenses actually meant.

more importantly:

(2) Uber knows this and exploits it.

Have you ever heard of MLMs? Of which there are thousands of examples around the world? Herbalife, Forever Living Products, Amway, etc.

All based on there being a large chunk of people[1] that don't really understand how money works.

[1] I'd put that number based on anecdata, at least at around 20-30% of the population.

Not insulting at all. I don’t expect someone hard up enough to drive Uber for minimum wage to understand how to calculate depreciation, etc.

They are focused on cash flow.

This might apply the first year, but many drivers have driven for many years. Uber isn’t new any more.

Drivers that aren’t able to calculate net depreciation (actually pretty easy and expected if you can afford to buy a car) would not be able to stick around and drive for 5 years.

I worked for the owner driver regulator of my country. People would take these jobs that they were making a loss on and not realise and be bankrupt in 6 months

I used Bolt in the EU

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