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> Yeah exactly, PR's are based on the fact that you have some person who is the owner that have complete power, and many other contributors who have zero power and whose contributions will mostly be rejected

PRs can be approved based on two people's opinion. There doesn't need to be a central gatekeeper.

> So you get these really weird situations where more junior, or less skilled, people can block PR's and demand changes from other more skilled and/or senior people.

Sometimes junior, or less skilled people, have something valuable to say. Especially if the code could be simpler.

In a stalemate, the PR could be sent to a third party. I've suggested this many times to avoid unnecessary conflict.

I don't think it is PRs that are the issue, rather your working environment.

> Sometimes junior, or less skilled people, have something valuable to say. Especially if the code could be simpler.

Yeah and sometimes they are naive, dogmatic and overconfident, and on a crusade to change all the things! because they have read some blog post by uncle bob, and this tool is putting them in absolute power every time they do a review.

> In a stalemate, the PR could be sent to a third party. I've suggested this many times to avoid unnecessary conflict.

Ok and who might this lucky scapegoat be? I have a feeling it's not the manager for some reason..

> I don't think it is PRs that are the issue, rather your working environment.

The issue, which I'm trying to illustrate, is that the tool makes the working environment worse by introducing (hostile) dynamics between people that don't exist, which leads you into situations that you don't have resolutions for, situations that should not occur.

Using a tool that allows you to block other people's work causes unnecessary conflict in a team where people are supposed to be working together.

Edit: blocking contributions is a normal and natural thing in an open source workflow, and it is not normal and natural in a team inside a company.

I've never thought of a PR as causing conflict. For sure, you're right now that you've explained it, but as an engineer I've never felt that way.

But I'm okay with the conflict! There should be conflict at work! Ideas should be freely expressed and those ideas are going to meet contrary ones!

What wouldn't be healthy is a place where that conflict isn't resolved or doesn't lead to a better idea winning. Or where only the Lead "wins" because of their position.

There shouldn't be arguments, no one should yell or be hurt. For sure that's a bad place to work. But conflict about where to place a piece of code? Sure! Conflict about if we name it Foo or Bar? Why not?! That conflict is like the sharpening of Iron! It hurts _today_ but can strengthen and make _you_ better let alone the organization as a whole.

>But conflict about where to place a piece of code? Sure! Conflict about if we name it Foo or Bar? Why not?! That conflict is like the sharpening of Iron!

I dearly hope this is sarcasm. This is about the same level of absurdity as developers taking ages to pick project/file names. I'm not railing against a review's abilities to find bugs and make sure someone else understands. GP is right in pointing out how many fruitless review discussions exist over personal differences in what to call a function name because "I think X sounds better than Y", despite every party involved understanding the code and what it does.

If only linters could solve these trivialities.

I’m sorry you had such bad experience but you were working with the wrong people (feels like toxic even). PR reviews work best in environment where trust is key, and deciding together (emphasis on together) best approach to reach a goal is the main drive. In the end PRs should make you and the team stronger, as the knowledge is shared collectively.

IMO every developer should be an admin of the repo, but more importantly it’s not a gate, it’s a process that benefits communication. All the team can read and learn from small addings to the code base.

PR reviews should not equate to 100 comments either, complex discussions can (should imo) be worked out in a call discussing (dialog) best approach. Think of white boarding a problem with a fellow engineer friend.

Ofc, teams differ and some teams work better with other processes and other tools.

> I’m sorry you had such bad experience but you were working with the wrong people (feels like toxic even).

It's the tool itself and it's imposed workflow of blocking work and gaining absolute power in demanding changes, that causes the working environment to become toxic. Nobody would ever do that in a meeting "I'm blocking this work now until my demands have been met". That would be incredibly hostile, but with this tool it becomes normal.

It doesn’t have to be like this. Even when I was CTO, I’d submit my code in a PR and my team would pull me up on mistakes and inconsistencies. It was really annoying! And also great.

PRs are a great way for the whole team to learn about how the organisation cuts code, and can reduce the number of errors, but of course with poor leadership they can be used for evil.

> It doesn’t have to be like this. Even when I was CTO, I’d submit my code in a PR and my team would pull me up on mistakes and inconsistencies. It was really annoying! And also great.

I can imagine that you had fun mingling with the commoners for a day, now try it on all of your actual work, and with the whole C-level team gang up on you for each review.

> about how the organisation cuts code

You don't have any guidelines for how the organisation cuts code, and that's why you like the review process, because it covers up for that.

Why the hate? You’ve obviously had some shitty experiences but I’ve never done anything to deserve your attitude.

> I can imagine that you had fun mingling with the commoners for a day, now try it on all of your actual work, and with the whole C-level team gang up on you for each review.

You literally know nothing about me, my experiences or how I conduct my life, and rather than listen to people with a different experience to yours, you choose borderline abuse.

This is the comments section of HN. Take a break and get some perspective.

I agree with the others commenting here and can't relate to your experience at all. Review is a huge positive and while it does "slow things down" it usually is preventing people from slamming into walls at high speed, so that's a positive too.

Maybe your work experience is mostly in a high stress, prototype-heavy environment where it's more important to launch something than it is to have a maintainable, incrementally improving codebase? I worked at a consultancy like that and it was very different from "big product" long term work.

As for the social dynamics, it sounds like your workplace culture just blows.

Same here! I would have one of the more senior people review my code, and I would review his. It was a small organization and we didn't have time to do the most thorough reviews, but it was good that someone else knew something about what was going on.

"Code reviews", in general, are a good thing for knowledge transfer. If they are done for nit picking and stylistic complaints, they are not terribly valuable.

I've worked on several teams that required PRs before merging, and there was never any toxic behavior. Everybody was happy with it.

I’m not sure why people are downvoting your lived experience. I’ll just say one thing: quit. Right now. This is a BAD environment.

He's getting downvotes because he's persistently overgeneralizing from his unfortunate, legitimate lived experience to a bunch of dogmatic claims about the fundamental nature of the pull requests that contradict many other people's own lived experience.

I'm simply pointing out that the workflow of the pull request is made for a different workflow than what you normally have inside a team in a company, and it therefor quite a bad fit. And illustrating this with a few examples.

I'm getting downvoted because I'm criticising developers favorite tools that lets them pretend to be Linus Thorvalds for a moment.

No it isn't, though. It's not like there's a "right way" to run a team. The teams I've been on that didn't review code always ended up imploding because because people rationalize their innocent corner-cutting when they don't have to deal with the embarrassment of sending it off to anyone.