When your “public square” is a private company, any sulky billionaire can buy it
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2) Is it really that much of a "public square"? Since only about 22% of USA adults are on Twitter; and 80 percent of the tweets come from 10 percent of users (thus 2.2% of the USA population). see https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2019/04/24/sizing-up-tw...
Could it be more that the noisy journalists are on Twitter, but the rest of us don't really care all that much ... ?
Most of the available evidence seems to indicate most of Twitter is bots or people who are indistinguishable from bots because they don't have any opinions of their own. I don't see much loss in Twitter being bought, or ceasing to exist entirely.
Media producers have always been since founding been owned and controlled by someone. I really don't understand why is it different that now a some new billionaire owns it...
And then the article is composed of 5 random people who tweeted about X.
Lather, rinse, repeat, and suddenly you have a "movement" or "trend" from absolutely nothing.
Check out Ryan Holliday's "Trust me, I'm lying" to see how it works.
"What's an invesssstigative journalisssst, my preciouss hobbitsses?" - "Something from the First Age, Sméagol."
That sounds pretty sizable to me. "Public Square" is an analogy to a physical space where people would gossip and politic, but that doesn't mean everyone in town engaged in it, and popularity isn't a new thing, it would always be the case that a small number of voices have outsized reach.
I don't think so, as that analogy would mean literally any space where people gather is a public square, including my living room. Typically what's implied by "public square" is that the space is owned by a government, and the public by proxy, and (in the US at least) is bound by Constitutional restrictions that private entities and citizens aren't.
When people say things like "Twitter is the de facto public square" what they're arguing is that Twitter should be considered (or converted into) public property, and no longer be allowed the free speech rights enjoyed by private enterprise, which include the ability to ban users, or moderate or delete content for any reason other than explicit legal necessity.
It feels a weird impulse to me, this being persnickety about what is or isnt a public square. We're comparing trees and oh this one is deciduous but this one is evergreen, so these arent the same sort of assemblages... the differences dont justify overlooking the commonality: these are forests. In the macro these are the same.
And the differences dont even match up. There's a number of what would be considered public squares around that are privately owned. There are court cases about planned redevelopment of some thta would end long decades of public use too, & no clear sense of how these challenges will resolve. I see the common forest of the public square in all of these, even if not all are explocitly carefully planned; that the public is there, & has been, & uses it is a more noteable distinction to me. The behavior not the legalese is the dominant characterizer to me.
Its obvious that twitter is the clear & obvious site for the piblic to congregate & mingle online, without any compare.
> When people say things like "Twitter is the de facto public square" what they're arguing is that Twitter should be considered (or converted into) public property, and no longer be allowed the free speech rights enjoyed by private enterprise,
I do think twitter would be better as a public good, & i think any nation with democratic values whatsoever would be actively competing to create equivalent public utilities, to better protect & afford speech more securely & in perpetuity. I think what uou fear is up for debate, far from certainv calling it a town square or public square doesnt meam twitter has no rights. But perhaps we should indeed limit their corporate personhood tonsome degree, in reflection of their emerged nature as a preeminent public utility. Perhaps.
I dont think you can argue against the logic just because you dont like one possible implication. I tend to think the implication is less dire than you project, but I see it all as very much up for debate, not forgone in how it would conclude.
Scientists, authors, journalists, techies.. a huge amount of really smart creative people are on this platform sharing their lives, cool things they find, & discussing topics & current affairs. I can roll up to any given conversation and join it.
I cant think of anything that comes remotely, no where near as serving as effectively as the public square of the world as twitter.
Dinging it because it only has x% would be modestly interesting to engage in of there was anything even faintly as connective, populated, & open to the world. There is not. Remarking that some people have outsized presence mirrors the real world: to expect the world engages in a public square exactly the same way as one another is absurd & a discredit.
2) fair point that not many people actually talk there. I wonder how many actually talk in a public square though. Probably a similar minority. The thing about Twitter is that it gets quoted in other media sources—TV, radio, print—anf the conversation doesn't stay just to those talking on Twitter. Yes that happens with NYT articles but Twitter amplifies so much conversation so that what gets spread on Twitter often finds its way to dinner tables.
Of course, whether or not social is “a public square” is not well-defined.
I do. Everyone from Jacobin Mag to Forbes was asking "Why?" and the implications. Was the tenor as furious as Musk with Twitter? Not really, but I'd argue the nature of the news cycle and the tenor of this purchase is quite different. Bezos wasn't known for endless attention grabbing then (and outside of the occasional messy divorce and space dick flight, still isn't now) and the purchase in appearance was very standard faire, albeit a little anxiety inducing for some folks for its implications.
Musk + Twitter on the other hand, follows a couple of years of Elon's post-Trump style endless attention-grabbing via constant performative jackassery/shitposting/sneering at rules of the "mere mortal" class, and includes his defective approach to following SEC rules, hostile takeover antics, etc.
So the "outrage" (and I'd argue it's less actual outrage and more exasperation at the perpetual circus) is a bit different in that respect.
This process is exposing the hypocrisy of the Twitterverse. They, the vocal blue-checkmarks, were happy and smug when "their guy" -a billionaire, was setting the tone, now that a different billionaire would set a different tone, they are now expressing concern where before they did would dismiss it with, go set up your own platform and a private company can set its own speech rules!
So it's a bit like arguing bees are irrelevant because they are a small percentage of the animal kindgom, completely ignoring the fact that losing the bees would kill off the whole planet.
I'll gladly take a billionaire controlled public square. Why? Because I can walk away form it. I'm far more worried about: when your "public square" is government controlled, they can do things like, I dunno, invade Ukraine. Have a different opinion? Too bad. Government also has all of the guns.
I'm having trouble interpreting what you mean
The problem these days is people, for better or worse, walk towards platforms.
They only work happily with SpaceX because it saves them potentially billions per year (and often there is no other option).
The Constitution places a few limitations on who can be President. One of these is that you must be a natural-born US citizen.
I wonder if changing the constitution will cost him less than buying Twitter.
I don't think so at all. The system is designed so that the American people, in the framework of the system, make it run. There's no need to worry that we only got the 2nd best person in the job, because we're not counting on their excellence to work miracles for us.
While on the other side of the coin, it's still possible for a bad actor in that position to wreak a lot of damage (especially given the historical erosion of controls on government action and the gradual abdication of Congressional oversight).
So it's more important to avert a potential disaster, then to avoid the cost of missing our one potential savior.
Let me ask you: would you go even a step farther? Should we allow non-citizens to hold the office? If not, why not?
Edit: one thing that bothers me about HN is the context-less downvoting. I wish people would reply with why they're downvoting. For me, it wouldn't be a public square because it is privately owned, it would be more like a shopping mall or an amusement park. Just because a shopping mall has free admission to the public doesn't mean it is a public space.
[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruneyard_Shopping_Center_v._R...
Not the US government though… rather, the Saudi government, who hold an unknown but presumably massive portion of the shares.
Are they mad that Elon wants to buy twitter because he's rich? Are they mad because of his stated position on free speech? Are they trying to point to some imagined hypocrisy in people considering twitter a public square who are also cheering Elon's attempted purchase of it?
In the end the company would just be moving from one set of millionaires and billionaires to another set.
And then what's with the sudden tangent to AI regulation?
I think yes to both. But they don't want to just blatantly say it so it's wrapped in some kind of gibberish.
-17th-century poem
Still holds up.
I'm just here to have interesting, productive conversations :)
I took the author to be asking a couple of important questions:
1) Do we want the "Codes of Conduct" and "Mission Statements" of private corporations to be our moral guides? I think a lot of religious people take issue with some of their stances, especially in regards to trans rights. (I am not stating my own opinion here.)
2) An interesting idea about AI that I hadn't considered: Can we have a proper discussion about regulating AI on platforms that are regulated by AI?
I often despair and wonder if people as a group tend to only function ethically when they are true underdogs.
I'm sure that lots of people really do value free speech as such, whether or not it's benefiting them (I know I do, and I don't have any reason to suspect different of you). But it sure seems like at least the activists are only interested in using it as a weapon when it happens to be in their own hands, and stomping it underfoot when the circumstances differ.
Being the way they are, though, I bet they would find another way.
Do "we"? I certainly don't. A few product updates, feature previews, giveaways and that's it for me.
>Neoliberalism and its incessant privatization of public space also explains social media’s weaponizing of morality. Rather than a digital version of the town square, Twitter is the privately owned space in which private companies and billionaires can compete for public virtue. Rather than real citizenship, that’s the mock political identity of our neoliberal age.
What exactly is this publicly owned web forum which the author pines for? I guess he cannot create it himself, because then it would be privately owned. What is he proposing? A government owned "public" Twitter?
If there is no actual proposal, it is interesting that this issue is now so pressing. When this publicly traded private company was banning and moralizing, it didn't seem to be an issue. "It is a private company, go somewhere else if you don't like it", was the standard refrain. Now when the shoe is on the other foot, the problem is private ownership.
From my side it reads as if Elon has master-level trolled partisans. His stated intent to literally take the company private should have been the first clue.
I think that's exactly it. I can't find any other interpretation that makes sense.
Lots of folks are up-in-arms about how he's going to destroy free speech. But since there's no hint from Musks's quarter that anything would be done to limit anyone's speech - more the opposite, that he largely opposes any such limitations - their concerns make no sense. I know it's partisan and uncharitable, but the only way I can find to read it is a fear that the kind of anti-speech limitations that they are accustomed to and they like will be removed. Thus, Musk has trolled them into revealing this secret preference.
>Do "we"? I certainly don't. A few product updates, feature previews, giveaways and that's it for me.
Yeah, this is really a self-inflicted problem. I'm personally a left-wing partisan but I still don't see this problem on my timeline because I curate it. It's maybe 10-20% political topics, but it's ones I care about like war and apartheid, not constant noisy call-outs. The rest is people talking about work, media they enjoy, what happened in their day, etc.
While there's a lot wrong with Facebook and Twitter (especially the things the algorithm decides to force on you), if you use the Twitter chronological timeline, you're seeing the people you chose to follow and the content they post. You can even disable retweets if you find that someone you value is RTing stuff you don't want to see. People need to learn to do everything they can to avoid pointing the toxicity firehose at their own faces.
There seems to be the idea in some lefty-er online circles that Elon Musk made a "loud offer" to "cause a media circus", "manipulate the market", or even "snub the SEC". They seem totally ignorant of the fact that this offer was made on the SEC's website to comply with their reporting requirements: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/0001418091/000110465...
I'm not an EM fan but that doesn't mean he always gets a fair shake from the media.
Not to say being loud is bad but c'mon. Its only not loud _for Elon_. This is a pretty loud as far as SEC filings go.
So no its not ideal, and no, folks have not been free of hypocrisy in their responses, but few issues are completely black and white.
There's some leaps here the author takes as self-evident that I don't follow.
This was spraying all over the place.
> We live in a financially unregulated world where Elon Musk can wake up one morning and choose to use $43 billion of his own money to noisily acquire a social media platform.
Musk's actions has to go through the SEC, and in any case it seems his offer will not be accepted. How is this an example of "financially unregulated"?
If Musk already owned, say, Facebook, then the antitrust regulations might kick in. But just offering to buy a company? Yeah, that's unregulated. Free market and all that.