Ask HN: What should I bring up during salary negotiation as a junior developer?

The best and most effective way to negotiate a salary or promotion is to have a competing offer.

If they want to keep you, they’ll pay and you win. If they don’t want to pay, you leave and still win.

Im sure there are companies out there giving raises out of the good of their heart but why would they do it?

If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I?

I know this is frowned upon here at HN and we like to think people get rewarded for good performance but unfortunately only a fraction of companies work like that.

Good luck!

This can quite backfire if you like everything else about the company. They could quite easily just say "well then go." Also it might make it clear that you have a certain flight risk.

I personally would never go the counteroffer route, regardless. If you want more money and you have a better offer just take that one.

Not being willing to negotiate in good faith is a sign of poor business acumen and low emotional intelligence. Clearly stating you can't go any lower/higher and 'take it or leave it' is fine -- getting offended or reneging the offer purely because someone has the balls to negotiate is just childish.

That's not what I meant. But if your mind is already set on probably leaving, then why would any manager still count on you and schedule you in any sprints or projects?

nope. you’ll end up underpaid and over the years leave a lot of money you deserve on the table.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Best_alternative_to_a_negoti...

Get the competing offer. Negotiate. Having a competing offer is a super strong signal for someone that is trying to hire you. It tells them you not only cleared their interviews but also cleared other interviews. It’s a hallmark of a competent person.

I never said to not get a competing offer. I said not to take (accept) a counteroffer.

In fact, I think it is good practice to do interviews every once in a while to see what the market is willing to pay for you.

huh. i guess i misread the whole thing.

agree with not accepting a counteroffer. in fact, if it goes to that, you probably don’t want to work there anymore

When your workforce has mobility, everyone is a flight risk.

Yes. So why not just accept the competing offer anyways?

Maybe you rather keep your current job, everything else considered.

>If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I?

Simple, because you want to make a profit. I can unironically and with all seriousness say I've chosen to become homeless on at least one occasion rather than work with people with your attitude.

And you get replaced by a team of consultants that charge $9000/hour. Or the company will pivot in order to not need someone with your qualifications. Because that costs less then giving everyone a 10% rise in salary. So if you want a high salary, go work for a company that pays top salaries.

Been there done that. Wound up doing contract work for way more pay.

> The best and most effective way to negotiate a salary or promotion is to have a competing offer.

Yikes, who's got this much time? Sure when applying for a new roles, having a counter offer is great, but imagine applying for a series of job, doing a TPS, then 6 hour onsite or two to get 1 offer to take a salary review. All of this over a couple of months?

Leaving isn't always winning. Good jobs and tenure at them can be really good. If you're learning, growing, working with good engineers can be amazing. Just because somewhere else is willing to pay and extra few dollars doesn't always make it worth it.

Let's say you normally get 5%/y augmentation, but you can leverage a job offer to get 20%, that's 15% more. If your salary is 100k usd (55$/h for 35h/w), then that translates to 15k. Assuming it takes you (6h x 6 potential companies) 36h, that's 420$/h (assuming you work the whole year).

All this to say, with charitable estimates, this seems very worth your time.

If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation.

> unfortunately only a fraction of companies work like that

In my experience, a company's view of an employee's performance often wildly diverges from the employee's personal view of it.

But there's nothing wrong with making a case to your employer about how valuable your contributions are. They may not be aware of it. Maybe their view of your contributions is misinformed.

> Im sure there are companies out there giving raises out of the good of their heart but why would they do it?

When you buy a laptop, do you pay extra out of the good of your heart? Or do you look for the best deal?

> If you have a better competing offer, take it. Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation.

I disagree. This can happen but it isn’t some universal truth.

Nothing is a universal truth with human beings.

I made those statements from experience, from both sides of the table, and the experiences of colleagues. People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role.

Perhaps that is the disconnect here. Negotiations do not necessarily include ultimatums. Obviously, one must be prepared to deal with the situation where an employer declines to meet your compensation requests, but framing it as an ultimatum is probably counterproductive.

That said, at least in the US, there is huge demand for capable developers (see the salaries posted on levels.fyi) and I would encourage anyone who is at all able to take a few interviews to assess their market rate. There are plenty of companies who treat their developers well _and_ pay them well. There's no need to settle for just one of those.

Looking for a job and pointing out competing offers is a good strategy.

My take was on something different - having an existing job and then using a competing job as leverage. I'm not sure how you'd frame it as not an ultimatum, because the employer almost certainly will regard it as an ultimatum.

Nor did I suggest "settling". I suggested if you get a better offer, take it.

"An old coworker of mine referred me for a job at his company. He says they pay great so I went through the process and ended up getting a much better offer than I expected. I like working here and I want to stay, but the salary from this new place is just too good to ignore. Is there anything you can do to make it easier for me to decide to stay?"

If your manager takes offense to that, it probably isn't a great place to work in the first place.

You may not know if he takes a dim view of your tactic or not, and you may not realize that you're slowly being sidelined.

But hey, it's your career, you get to do as you like! If I was right about everything, I'd be a billionaire.

>You may not know if he takes a dim view of your tactic or not, and you may not realize that you're slowly being sidelined.

Sure, and maybe my manager is sidelining me because I remind them of their ex. Anything is possible. As I said in the original comment, an objection is a sign of a place you probably don't want to be working at anyway. I would definitely jump at the first sign of trouble, but I would wait for that sign. I wouldn't assume there is trouble without any evidence or avoid trying to negotiate on the assumption that it will cause trouble.

> People don't like ultimatums. Even if they accede to them, their trust in the person will decline, and they'll be thinking twice about putting that person in a critical role.

I disagree again. It doesn’t have to be an ultimatum. If it’s delivered as one then what you describe will likely happen.

If a valued employee has an outside offer and brings it up tactfully with their manager it doesn’t have to be so binary as you position it to be.

You can accept a counter at your current employer, erode no trust and continue to do well there. Clearly yourself and none of your colleagues have experienced what I describe which is a shame.

To be clear, if you ever bring up an offer to your current boss you should always be willing to accept it in the event negotiations to stay are not fruitful

> Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation.

I have used a better competing offer multiple times to negotiate with my employer of 13 years. My relationship with my superiors improved each time…

I believe how you go about this negotiation will determine if it damages the relationship, not if you do it or not.

Every case is different. I did not speak a universal truth. But in my experience and the experience of colleagues, what I wrote is what happens.

And now I want to hear more about that how :D

    I believe how you go about this negotiation will determine if it damages the relationship, not if you do it or not.

In your experience, what things are a must in that way to go about that negotiation to keep a healthy or improved relationship?

I believe Walter’s comment (sibling to yours) is a common experience because there isn’t a solid relationship with superiors before the negotiation takes place.

Building relationships takes time. Restarting new relationships every couple years via job hopping can impede such a conversation and make it feel more transactional than mutually beneficial. Since short tenure is more common, this may be another reason Walter finds his colleagues’ experience common.

When negotiating, I knew I was solving the right problems for my superiors and I wanted to keep working to solve their problems but for wages which were more competitive. My bosses understood, wanted the same, and used the offers from other companies to make the case for a raise or promotion.

I would not advise going into a negotiation simply with the notion “I can get paid more over here.” That wasn’t the point of the negotiation. If you go about it that way I believe it would be damaging. A conversation only about pay feels transactional which is damaging to these kinds of long-term relationships. Instead, I was truly desiring to continue my good working relationship with my bosses, but for more pay, and the negotiation was the way for both of us to win.

Over a long time, relationship building snowballs and can be even more effective. The last time I did this after working at the same place for a decade, I got a call from the company’s CTO a few hours after my talk with my manager. He was traveling on business but made time for me to discuss my concern since he knew my work. The call was the start of a satisfying new career direction in a new department.

> Using it as leverage with your current employer will damage your relationship with them, even if you win that negotiation.

In larger companies at sufficiently deep levels in the hierarchy, often the person you are really negotiating against is not the line manager you have a tight relationship with (the other party is usually a Director/VP + their HRBP + some remote comp analytics team by proxy). In fact, assuming this is not a high frequency event, bringing a competing offer may make your boss's job easier and give them extra ammunition and help them justify your extra comp request outside the preallocated budget (which can often be too limited or too inflexible).

Of course they can't explicitly tell you this but always watch for the nudges and signals.

If I found out my company worked on this basis, I would leave. It's shitty behaviour. People don't have time to go out and interview at other companies. Not to mention, you're burning any future potential with the other company when you waste their time.

>> If nobody else wants to pay you more, why would I?

Because I bring value to you, do a good job, and you don't want me to leave (which I can do, even if I don't currently have an open offer). You don't want to have me leave suddenly and have to spend time and money hiring someone new and training them. That's why you would pay me more even if I don't rub another offer in your face.

> If I found out my company worked on this basis, I would leave.

Most likely you'd be in denial or delusion if you are assuming any company of scale is not operating on this basis. Sure they may not operate solely on this basis (give minor adjustment to the target they have to reduce the "activation energy" of people interviewing) but fundamentally what GP says is the primary way they operate.

Yep. Better grind that leetcode and those mock interviews.

Don’t bother yourself too much about salaries while you’re junior. The most important asset for you is - experience. Look for better experience, not for better salary.

Then you raise your income and career by switching companies (yes, this is the only scalable way at the moment).

This is best response. By miles. Later in your career you can make the big bucks. For now the best experience is the best thing.

And, changing companies is the best way to get the salary bump, unfortunately.

It's not the right advice for a consultant that works in a large consulting firm. In that situation all that really matters is years of experience at level. The best thing for an early career consultant to do is get promoted ASAP.

Fair point.

I'm conflicted as to whether experience is as important as money. It really depends on whether you're planning to stay at your current company long-term.

I took a rather large pay cut to get my first job. The experience as invaluable. And then I went to another job and saw a huge jump in pay. If I stayed at the first company, I'd have to have seen 400% raise over three years to compare to my current salary.

In a business culture where raises are typically a percent of your current salary (plus bonus/RSUs), starting pay and your first couple of raises have an enormous impact on your long-term earning potential at that company. A poorly compensated junior developer becomes a poorly compensated mid-level developer -- unless you start job hopping.

if you are still struggle even with that advice, just try calculate your bare-minimum monthly cost of living and add 1-5 percent for additional savings and that'd be your initial wage.

Might not be applicable in the US, I guess.

Here’s what I’ve found works well in the long-term at a big company: Tell your manager that money is important to you. Tell them that it’s motivating and tell them what you said above: that if your performance doesn’t meaningfully impact your compensation that it’s a bummer.

I would tell my manager this before the formal compensation discussion so it can factor into the compensation planning that likely happens in the month(s) leading up to the discussion. This isn’t necessarily the fastest way to get a raise but it helps your manager know how to support you better, it keeps you both on the same side, and it builds a more trusting relationship. This is what I recommend if you see yourself working at this company for years to come.

Salary negotiation? If you're taking on that much accountability, you should be discussing a promotion. If they won't give you it, it sounds like you're in a good position to look elsewhere for a more senior position (with the salary that would come with it).

Yes, the tactful way to discuss this is in terms of seeking a promotion with commensurate increase in compensation for added responsibility.

Part of this discussion should be asking your boss what, exactly, are the requirements are for the next position up the ladder. Use your work on the current project to determine if you, in fact, could reasonably ask for a promotion.

> my boss said there was a small change they would consider giving a larger raise based on performance.

- Bring up the things you've told us about how you stand out from the rest of the juniors.

- How long have you been there? Is it realistic to start a conversation/plan for a promotion?

In reality most companies aren't good at keeping up with salaries for juniors - whatever raise they're offering, you can likely get much more by switching companies after 1-2 years of experience.

yes. the value you offer as a junior with real experience from delivering a project or two is a _lot_ higher than a junior who has no real world experience. many companies will not offer a pay rise that reflects the increase in value.

also, if working in a consultancy, it is useful to understand how the game is played and how the org is structured: https://commoncog.com/blog/the-consulting-business-model/

as a junior developer in a consultancy you have the option of defecting from the consultant trajectory and getting another developer / engineering job somewhere, for better or worse.

I've worked for a lot of large consulting companies. You're not going to meaningfully change your compensation as an employee via negotiation. And if you're a junior good enough to negotiate a better raise that means you're good enough to significantly (20-30%) by jumping to a competitor. Start looking for a job and see if you can get someone to bump you up a level.

There's zero reason to be loyal to a large consulting firm. In their eyes you're cattle to be sold at market.

It's become super common to get pay increases by hopping companies, especially in the highly on-demand cyber industry. My one friend has been at something like five companies in five years. New companies come with interest, and he tells them they will have to make it worth his while to leave.

I have a friend who is a sales manager. One of his salesmen came to him demanding a $500 bonus for something he'd accomplished.

The sales manager thought for a moment, and countered with an offer of $250.

The salesman said he'd settle for $350.

The sales manager then said, I'll give you the $500 on one condition - you never fold so quickly like that again.

How insulting. I appreciate the fact that my compensation is in writing, not based on my boss' mood that day. That feels like "I'll tip an extra 10% on this meal if you promise not to let my coffee mug go empty."

It's not a mood. The sales manager trains his staff in how to do sales. He expects them to follow the training.

Reminds me of an anecdote I read in a business book:

The owner of a company noticed that 3 of his managers were sloppy with their accounting. Repeated suggestions for improvement accomplished nothing. One day, he shorted each of them $5 on their paychecks (it's an old book, like $50 today). They all came into his office, and politely pointed out there was a mistake in their paycheck amounts.

The owner handed them each a $5 bill, and suggested they be as assiduous with the company accounts as they are with their own money. Two got the message and there was no more sloppy accounting, the third didn't and was let go.

How does negotiating compensation teach your employee how to sell widgets? The only thing they have in common is negotiation. I speak to and negotiate with my employer differently than a client.

Following this lesson, shouldn't the sales person ask for more money every paycheck? Every day? Every sale?

> the third didn't and was let go

Because they didn't catch their boss in a lie? Have you ever received a paycheck without double checking it wasn't $50 short? If I found out my employer shorted me on purpose I would not trust them.

His first problem was that he didn’t ask for $750 first.

That too :-)

What does Jr mean? :) For example it's expected that our L2s (new grad) won't stay L2s for long. It's meant to be a very quick set of promotions up to L3 then L4 (Sr I) where things get real. Why would I care? Because along with a promo come promo raises and movement to new salary bands. At the higher levels the salary bands expand a lot and then your manager has wiggle room to work on your total comp.

So the first question I'd ask is, how am I meeting the requirements for my level, and how do I get to the next level? Ask to see what a promo package looks like. Making sure you check all the requirements for your level, and are performing on some at the next level if your fastest way to get a real salary bump at my company. This can happen every 6 months.

Now, this is what's true at my company and how it works here. How does your company work? What knobs does your manage have that he can turn? If you want to stay there a few years, have this conversation with your manager and understand how the system work, what's possible and does this fit with your goals.

>To be honest being told that my performance wont impact my salary is kind of a bummer considering i have to wait another year for the next possible raise. I can see myself working here for some time, but i feel like saying that would make them feel like they can pay me less as im not going to leave in the foreseeable future.

Your concerns are valid and it is not your fault that your employer doesn't understand how hot this industry is for workers _right now_. Personally I don't think the hotness is sustainable (see implosion of Fast), so make your move while you are able. Obviously the response will vary based on your company's policy, your manager, and HR department, but anecdotally, I was able to negotiate two raises in the same year with competing offers (even after leaving the company and re-signing) and one the year before. Granted, I'm still sitting well below what I could be (and was) making, but mental health sure is a fickle bitch sometimes.

It seems more comfortable to stay on board and accept the raise, but you’ll likely be better served by moving on, especially in this job climate.

Getting exposure to other teams, companies, products, and entire verticals is one effective way to build seniority.

Know what your level of experience commands, both in the market, and at your company. If you ask for peanuts then many companies will happily oblige. LinkedIn actually offers a salary tool, where it will list the going wage for a particular position, either in the market, or at your specific company. They crowdsource the information, so there's not a guarantee they have your company. I'd ask for the higher end of the spectrum, as they likely won't see you as out of the park, and be willing to counter, assuming they don't accept right off the bat.

The best way to get more salary as a junior is to switch companies every year or two. Assuming your current company does not give adequate raises (most company's do not).

Did you sign a non-compete with the consulting company? Might the customer be interested in hiring you since you are the expert on their project? Otherwise trying to get promoted or leaving are your options.

No point negotiating until later in your career. Get other offers, the experience you get interviewing for other companies is worth in dollar value more than anything else you’ll learn in the next 2 years.

> small chance they would consider giving a larger raise based on performance

Small chance?! Wow. If raises are not primarily based on performance, then you either have to wait around to be "tenured" enough to get more $, or figure out how to please the people who are in charge of giving out raises. Both are not ideal if you're young and ambitious

If I were you, I would quantify the impact of the project you worked on (in terms of specific revenue / profit $) and use that in your negotiation

Most likely, you'll need competing offers from other companies to get a sizable raise. Also good to know your market value: https://www.levels.fyi/ is useful for big tech; https://topstartups.io/startup-salary-equity-database/ is useful for startups

Juniors by definition are entry level, unless you have a degree from a university they're specifically shopping for , or a minor in the sub-market they're targeting (translating Egyptian hieroglyphics, organic chemistry, whatever), or some other special qualifier you don't have much room for negotiation unfortunately.