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Update: 2 more anecdotes

4) Brahmin friend of mine at work. Brilliant fellow. Solid decent chap overall. I tell him about this article I read about how in some city, a non-Brahmin girl wasn't allowed to do Bharat Natyam (a classical Indian dance form that is widely taught) on some stage because she wasn't a Brahmin. I guess traditionally only Brahmin girls were allowed to perform it. Turns out he agrees with this decision.

5) I'm eating South Indian food with a colleague in Chennai (I suppose he was a Brahmin, but am not 100% sure). I love South Indian food. I comment to him how good the food is. He says, it's not as good as it used to be because in the past only Brahmins were allowed to cook at that restaurant, but now they allow anyone to cook. He knows I'm not a Brahmin, and still he thinks it's okay to say such things to my face.

Was the dance a religious ceremony reserved for Brahmins? Seems sensible to honor that tradition if that is the case.

It might have been in the past.

It was just Bharat Natyam. A commonly taught classical dance form of India. But this performance hall denied her request to perform it because she wasn't a Brahmin.

I had read about a woman from a Brahmin family who first started practicing Bharat Natyam in the 1900s , and had huge opposition from other brahmins as it was considered low for a brahmin lady to practice . This was only practiced by Devadasis during that time. Now when the dance is popular , brahmins have myths about how the dance form belongs to the brahmins and was granted by god. I think this is the wiki link:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rukmini_Devi_Arundale The related links have more details about the transformation from an art form of the lower class to gods gift to the upper class. This is true of almost every claims of the so called upper castes. Propping up the caste system required blind faith and belief, just dig a little and you see how stupid it is to believe.

True, have seen system from inside. Have seen people of my generation still clinging to it.

Most of places I see it, is for economic reasons(priest job, reservations both are side of coins) and some have nothing to boost other than caste and no other incentives.

Always hoped education will get rid of this system that has turned evil, but that hope has also gone as western education system has nothing to offer. Probably some indigenous education reform might help, but would love to see some PhD or researched guy’s comment

Would love to see some solutions to this problem. One that I have heard is inter-caste marriage(haven’t researched much), but would love to see some more solutions for this problem or just no hope than another Shankaracharya.

If interested we can have website dedicated to solutions eradicate this system by offering people what this system gives them.

Also I think we can’t get rid of any system without offering replacement for it especially for huge and highly knitted society as Bharat.

> 3) I now live and work in the U.S. A new hire, Indian, joins. Visits my office one day. Tells me he left India because he hates the caste system. I start warming to him. A little while later informs me that he's a very high Brahmin. Not an ordinary Brahmin, mind you, a high Brahmin.

All the super-progressive Indians I know in the U.S. are Brahmins. What's up with that?

This guy also believes he's super-progressive. He hates the caste-system, remember?

It might be "compensation". It's like people who live in lily-white areas who constantly harp on about George Floyd. To show they're truly down with the struggle. But if a black man shows up in their neighborhood, they call the police on him.

I remember in high school a girl doing a “caste reveal” in class. She had researched her family history and proudly announced that, phew, she was Brahmin. We all clapped.

I come from one state in India were caste isnt anywhere front and center. I would have loved to say that caste is irrelevant here, its almost true. From following your posts I think our states are on the east and the west of an international boundary.

Anyhow, being raised in a caste-agnostic surroundings I was quite underexposed to all this. Much later, I get into a premier institute in Kanpur and a senior grad student introduces himself to me thus, "Hi I am <insert name>. I am a high caste Rajput".

This is the first time I am meeting him and not even a minute had elapsed since our first eye contact. I am so dumbfounded by this I literally stand there at a loss for words. Finally I mumble "Congratulations" as I had no idea or prior exposure on how to react to such a situation.

By the way, for anyone interested in reading more, a fascinating read is the chapter on the Hindu Caste System in the book "Tarikh Al Hind" written by Al Biruni, Persian scholar, during his visit to India from 1017 to 1030.

It was written 1,000 years ago, but could have been written 75 years ago. It reads that fresh.

http://www.columbia.edu/cu/lweb/digital/collections/cul/text...

The level of oppression of lower castes (described in this book) is unbelievable, and remains partly practiced even today. The biggest problem was that you couldn't escape your caste ("caste" is derived from "cast", something you were locked, or cast, into).

No, caste is derived from the Portuguese word "Castas" which was widely prevalent in Europe and very rigid as it was from the church.

1. Nobility

2. Clergy

3. Landowners & Merchants

4. Artisans

5. Outcasts - butchers, sanitary workers, undertakers ....

Some European countries still legally protect a lot of family names, which you would have to buy if you need a fancy royal name.

Just so you know: the prevalence of non-Brahmin castes among toppers is discussed rather in hushed tones. The supposed explanation is that "richer" families have better access to coaching.

I have been involved in public exams in India. I think the best predictor for performance is how relevant your parents' education is, to your career, not caste per se.

Agreed. My caste is obsessed with both money and education. I'll let you guess it on your own time < laughing out loud >.

Oh, I can guess :) which is why I mentioned "richer" in quotes.

Brahmins are around 4% of the Indian population. It's no surprise there weren't many of them in the top 10 selected. Even if there was on average only one out of 10 each year, that would still be an overrepresentation of more than double.

Sorry if this comes as extremely ignorant but how is the caste of a foreigner determined? Let's say I marry an Indian, I must adopt her caste? I have to get... Evaluated? and after that I get a caste?

You’ll be a foreigner forever. Your kids will be foreigners too, regardless of how long they live there.

So being a no caste foreigner is better or worse than a low caste? :S I guess it depends on a lot of factors but...

It always comes down to the perception of how useful you could be. Do you look like you could have valuable connections? Do people look at you and think this person probably has money/smarts/connection/anything else of utility? Maybe you are exotic or good looking enough that they want to associate with you to increase their own standing in their own tribes?

Can you explain, if Brahmins represent only 4% of the population (like a comment said), why in your example the landlord and the girls expected a Brahmins (and not just "any 'respectable' caste") ?

To me, it sounds very illogical : like only wanting to rent or marry millionaires...

Why wouldn't you tell the landlord you are a Brahmin?

Since they need to ask I guess that this is not something obvious.

My last name would eventually give away that I wasn't a Brahmin.

They hadn't asked me my name yet. I was taken to them by a rental intermediary. A guy who helped people find apartments. Online rental finding places, like Craigslist, weren't common back then (at least in India).

The most shocking thing about the experience to me was that even though it was illegal for them to deny me an apartment on the basis of my caste, there was simply nothing I could do about it. If I went to the police, it would be a whole other circus (bribes, inaction, etc.).

There is also a general belief that

  1. Sikhs & Gurkhas are warrior class, they are overrepresented in the military.
  2. Parsi's are extraordinarily successful businessmen, they are among the wealthiest Indians.
  3. Brahmins are extraordinarily successful academically.
  4. Jains are successful businessmen.

Let us remember that 1-3 were co-opted by the British as loyal troops, given special concessions in business, and employed as loyal servants in clerical tasks.

In the case of [4] it is survival bias, being a true Jain is very hard and only the rich elite could adhere to it.

Some communities in India have had a head start or rather the barbaric colonial rule had pulled down much of the population to abject poverty and gave few people not in abject poverty a head start.

Equally there is a special hate campaign against Brahmins emanating from church as they are seen as guardians of high culture and scriptures.

As a vast majority of Indians have not converted to Islam or Christianity in spite of the hostile foreign occupation anywhere between 400 to a 1000 years, I can safely say we are all warriors and the last surviving major ancient civilisation.

The caste-debate is a two way street and is mostly kept alive by few vested interests. Among the youth it is mostly the "reservation" that exposes them to "Caste politics", as online education & private sector picks up it is going to be less relevant.

To be fair to Brahmins, as non-brahmin with a brahmin-like first name from Tamil Nadu I have been at the receiving end of the political-church driven hate campaigns that even teachers take part in.

I think we should not tolerate any kind of hate especially hate campaigns, esp. for the younger generation.