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Comment by TedDoesntTalk | Hacker News Reader

Thanks for writing this. I have a question for you, since my marriage ended for reasons similar to this author's. Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live?

We are always told "Accept your significant other rather than trying to change them." Why does not that apply here?

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If it is unimportant to you, and important to her, then splitting the difference doesn’t mean doing it your way half the time.

If it instead is important to both of you, then you have a fundamental problem that you need to sit down and work through.

Maybe there is a compromise that will leave both of you happy. Maybe one of you is willing to try changing. Or maybe you have an irreconcilable difference and need to split up.

Honestly if you are both ready to consider divorce before you change your dishwashing behavior, that’s a pretty big warning sign that things aren’t on the right track.

An example: I don’t give a shit about clothes on the bedroom floor. No one but me and my wife ever sees them. But it bothers her. It costs me very little to dump the clothes in a hamper, and makes her much happier. So I put my clothes in the hamper as much as I can remember to, and she gives me grace the times I forget. Happily together for 20 years so far.

He did mention that he would never care to change his behavior and had two reasons to continue doing it. I guess that doesn't mean it's the hill he would go to die on. I do struggle with the same thing, at what point is it something that's no longer a conversation, you should just change because the other person decided they cared enough about it. Having the wife end a marriage over it also seems ridiculous. If people can't come to realize they are asking for something silly but it's a big deal to them, that seems like that partner's problem. If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?

> If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?

This is my question, and i would like to hear from OP, married 33+ years, on his attitude about this.

> If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?

Is the implication here that your spouse views their marriage as a game they need to “win”, and saying “this is important” are the magic words they need to say to win?

Or are they sincerely trying to compromise and saying “I’m trying to meet you halfway but this is genuinely important to me”?

This is an extreme example/edge case and if that's truly the case you are either not participating in good faith or would likely benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy. You're approaching the topic of a healthy marriage from game theory where your spouse is another player/opponent, not from empathy and good-faith participation or even just as a team with a common goal.

Is your goal to "have it your way all the time", or is it to have a healthy and loving marriage with your spouse? If you approach it from the latter perspective, the question doesn't really make any sense.

To be fair, it’s not really about coldly «saying something is important». I think the question is really better restated as:

What if one person just feels more strongly about things (most or all of the time)? Should feelings always trump? Should feelings always be allowed to trump rationality/proportionality in a marriage conflict?

PS:

> You're approaching the topic of a healthy marriage from game theory

made me laugh out loud :D

> What if one person just feels more strongly about things (most or all of the time)? Should feelings always trump? Should feelings always be allowed to trump rationality/proportionality in a marriage conflict?

It depends if to you “marriage” is a business transaction or an emotional relationship.

Though there are likely to be problems if you a x your partner envision it differently.

Transactional Analysis and Eric Berne (author of The Games People Play) disagree.

Emotions and (business) transactions are not mutually exclusive.

I feel like this moves the goal posts but that's fine, this is a more legitimate question.

This is the actual hard part of the marriage/relationship that the commenter higher-up is talking about. Compromise is table stakes. Communicating well with your partner, making sure they are an equal participant and making sure they feel heard and valued is what's important.

Again, focusing on who is going to "win" is not a healthy perspective in my opinion. Questions like "do feelings beat rationality?" Is the same thing as saying "does paper beat rock?" The purpose of the article was not that dishes and minor arguments about dishes on the counter resulted in a divorce. The point is that she felt belittled and unheard. He was winning the dish battles, but lost his marriage.

>Should feelings always trump?

No! But they might! Each marriage and relationship is different and they change over time (as people tend to do). For one couple this could be true, but that doesn't really mean anything. Again, this approach is thinking about marriage as a series of small arguments to win, with your spouse as the opponent.

Compromise is table stakes. Whether the dishes got done or not really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not these people got divorced, the issue was a lack of communication and one partner not feeling heard.

This is a less-bad framing of the earlier question, but it still suffers from the same flawed perspective. The goal is to have a healthy and happy marriage where both individuals feel heard and respected and like a team.

What if you feel more strongly about something than your partner? Do you feel like your thoughts and feelings on the matter are being heard? (Note: feeling heard is not the same as "I got my way") Do you feel like an equal team member in the decision? It's okay to feel annoyed or frustrated at the result, that's part of life, you don't always get your way. But it's a huge difference between "I felt like my opinion was fully heard and considered, even if we didn't decide on my point of view." and "I felt dismissed, belittled, and unheard. $spouse/boss/friend/person didn't really listen to what I had to say and I don't feel valued."

It was not so much a question on _who_ is going to win, as to _what_ is going to win. In other words: What are deemed legitimate criteria, and even the most important criteria, in a conflict? It’s a question of value systems. Making feelings paramount, like several above suggested, seems like a pragmatic quick fix. If one part obviously feels so much stronger than the other, why shouldn’t the other just give way? But it is not without its problems. Stronger feelings doesn’t mean more right, and doesn’t mean the holder has a more justified basis for being accommodated. Even though it may patch things up more easily in the short term.

There’s also a personality component: some people tend to feel more strongly about most things, and others may not feel particularly strong about anything (although they are not void of feelings/opinions). Causing relational skew. The latter person giving way, to smooth things over, and to not stir strong feelings in the other, can turn out to blow up hard in the long run.

But yeah, as you say: HOW something is done is oftentimes just as important as WHAT is done (the outcome).

> The latter person giving way, to smooth things over, and to not stir strong feelings in the other, can turn out to blow up hard in the long run.

You're still approaching this as "A's feelings vs B's rationale". The original article is highlighting one (common) path this takes: one person's feelings are not being heard and they feel devalued and belittled. But you're still approaching it as partner vs partner rather than as a team vs the issue with a goal of everyone feeling loved, heard, and understood.

It is on both sides to make sure that the other person feels heard and an equal partner. If person B feels like their rationale isn't being considered at all, or that their feelings are not, it's the same situation.

>The latter person giving way, to smooth things over,

A valid feeling is that they are giving a lot. Their partner feels strongly about things ABC, but there's no free lunch. Changes to your behavior obviously have consequences. Folks are giving specific examples like "My spouse cares about laundry being in the hamper, I don't really so I don't mind putting in the extra effort to make them happy." But if one feels like they are giving more than they are getting, that's a communication issue beyond whether the dishes get done. The same as the person who feels strongly not being heard.

Your example: "can turn out to blow up hard in the long run" is necessarily different. There's resentment implicitly brewing. Maybe the spouse often starts these conversations more aggressively. Something like "Why can't you ever put your clothes away?" It starts off aggressive, is accusatory, and assumes that the spouse is acting in bad faith.

Put more succinctly, if things do blow-up in the long run then there's a similar communication failure that has occurred and one member of the partner ship doesn't feel like a capable and equal partner in the eyes of their spouse.

HOW something is done: how these feelings and thoughts are communicated is not just as important oftentimes, but is absolutely more important always. Specifically for small stuff like dishes, laundry, etc. "What" wins is entirely irrelevant and will vary from issue to issue and couple to couple.

If it's something more consequential like having children, parenting values, financial values, etc. that's more fundamental that the topic here and is likely just two people who are incompatible with irreconcilable values.

> You're still approaching this as "A's feelings vs B's rationale".

Not necessarily. I also wrote:

«If one part obviously feels so much _stronger_ than the other, why shouldn’t the other just give way? … some people tend to feel _more strongly_ about most things, and others may not feel particularly strong about anything (although _they are not void of feelings/opinions_).»

I’m thinking about the degree of feelings involved. (No one is fully and solely rational, after all.)

I agree with you on the other points you make.

I suppose the statement I made is slightly imprecise, but the framing is still A's feelings and rationale vs B's feelings and rationale. Which is the entire paradigm I'm saying is bunk and pointless.

I entered into my marriage assuming my partner was negotiating in good faith. If she says something bugs her, it bugs her. Collectively we can either spring for Cognitive-Behavioral Therapy for her, or I can pick up my pants after I shower.

If your partner needs to have their way in all things, then there may be a deeper trust issue to resolve and/or they might not be ready for a committed relationship.

Edit: rereading above I can see it coming off as a little flippant. At the core I believe we all have things we do and feel that are not rational. I don’t think you can reason your way out of them. You can’t rationally argue away a feeling. You can do therapy to try to change it, or you can remove the negative stimulus.

> If I just sit around and say everything is "important", does that mean I get to have it my way all the time?

It means you're being manipulative dishonest. Which I hope we can agree is not a strong foundation for a relationship.

Right, you do this small act of service because you are in love with your partner. Ideally not even because it makes her happy, but because it makes you happy to make her happy.

The upshot of the article, IMO, is that they were no longer in love.

And that lack of love became most apparent by observing all the tiny acts of service that people in love do for each other, and people who are merely co-habitating and perhaps also co-parenting, do not give a flying fuck about and use as a safe thing to argue about instead of admitting the truth.

I think the author’s intent was to say that the little things lead to little resentments, and resentment destroys love.

You omit the fact to some people _anything_ is important and for some nearly _nothing_ is. That would lead to a de facto master/slave-like relationship.

People's desire to shape the relationship (and hence their partner's) is asymmetrical.

In your example, you don't mention what _you_ made her change to compromise with something _you_ felt was important (and i don't want any answer, as it's something private). It just that it sounded like the classic "married with children"/"the simpsons" premise...

I'm in a marriage and I struggle with this same question. I sometimes feel like the things my wife cares about are essentially endless. Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things.

I found the article really well written and I think a lot of people will be able to relate to it. Consideration for our partners and compromise is a tricky and interesting domain. I'm realizing more and more that there can be a lot of complexity behind benign everyday situations like a dirty cup beside the sink. Like how can a dirty dish even perturb somebody so much in the first place? Is it related to some trauma or childhood conditioning? Can it be addressed somehow?

>Like if I bend to "her way" and put effort into consistently placing the dirty cup in the dishwasher, next week something new comes up. Then it's the clothes on the floor of my side of the bed or not hanging my jacket or not putting my shoes away perfectly in the closet. At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things.

I don't understand the complaint here. It sounds like your wife is trying to get you, incrementally, to act like a responsible adult. This is what a good partner does.

The more interesting question is why you want to remain living like a slob in a messy environment?

Yep. Good partners push us to be better, healthier people. It’s absurd how many people in this thread are writing off taking responsibility as mental illness.

I agree with the first point which is definitely a blessing even if we can't see it directly.

To the second point I would argue (and I unfortunately do argue) that "responsibility" can be a vague and subjective term. Like is it a hard-coded responsibility to make your bed every morning? Some would argue yes and use funny arguments like "ask anyone normal" or "all highly intelligent/successful people do it". I would say it's generally a waste of time unless you're bed is so off that you can't comfortably get back into it.

>I would say it's generally a waste of time unless you're bed is so off that you can't comfortably get back into it.

I think the point about making the bed is that it takes all of 30 seconds and makes the entire room look significantly more orderly. One of the highest-ROI cleaning tasks, in terms of time spent vs. tidiness gained.

He said that’s one of an endless list of items that grows each week. 30 seconds to make a bed is just the start.

I assumed the "endless" list was more hyperbole than an actual endless. The concrete examples he gave were all habits he should have grown out of by his late teens.

The actual reason to make ones bed is to let air circulate in the parts of the bed, that potentialy have been sweaty all night, which increases hygiene. At least in my book that is the main reason. Secondary reason might be, that it is nicer to let oneself fall into a nicely made bed at night. Third might be, that it looks more orderly.

> The actual reason to make ones bed is to let air circulate in the parts of the bed

I don't follow - doesn't making a bed involve covering the bottom sheet and mattress cover, which is likely what absorbed the most sweat, with the top sheet and blankets, which would block the airflow to it?

When I need to air out my bed, I push the blanket and top sheet over to the side opposite the side I slept, which makes it look messier, not nicely made.

I’ve read all your comments on this, dre85, and just want to say we are similarly aligned. And I’m recently divorced. Our misalignment of cleanliness was a big part of it, but not all. Hypocrisy was there; for example she trained me to make my bed every day. But she rarely made hers (we did not share the same bed in the last 2-3 years before it ended). That’s just one instance, there were others.

I relate to what you said about an endless list of these things. It’s nearly impossible. And once you think you’ve got them all down, there’s another one to remember.

I would ask you to examine how forgiving she is when you forget to complete one of her tasks. Does she explode? Get out of that relationship. Is she accepting that you’re not perfect? Ok, she’s someone you can work with.

Good luck. Seriously.

Fair enough, although I think the term "slob" is a bit extreme here. I would say that I'm just not very into what I would call "organization for the sake of organization". For example:

1. As the author already mentions, why put a cup into the dishwasher if you plan on using it again?

2. Why fold and put away my pants if I wear the same pants everyday for a week?

3. Why hang my jacket if I know I'm leaving again in an hour

4. Why make the bed at all ever? (making the bed is its own topic of insanity IMO)

Etc etc etc

I think I just value and emphasize what I consider efficiency (perhaps laziness?).

>I think the term "slob" is a bit extreme here

>I wear the same pants everyday for a week

I have nothing more to say. :P

(In all seriousness, maybe have a chat with people you trust about general smell/hygeine. Dental shit especially is something so many grown adults get completely wrong. Not everyone notices it, but there's a damn good reason I go out of my way to sit next to black people on the train! :P).

> I think I just value and emphasize what I consider efficiency (perhaps laziness?).

Serisously, though, I think that's what great about having a partner. In the eyes of some random dickhead on the internet, at least, you make a fair point on (1) and (3), but (2) and (4) are maybe things your partner's value system handles better.

Pants do not smell after 5 days of wearing them at your desk..

You should check out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6gu_ABMvzA. You don't need to wash your pants that often. Specially if stay somewhere there is not dust and areas are not dirty.

Considering 1-4, the term slob might not be that extreme :)

>I don't understand the complaint here. It sounds like your wife is trying to get you, incrementally, to act like a responsible adult

The fundamental conflict is that the person and their wife's goals are not aligned.

If the husband does not want to develop into a "responsible adult" in this respect, their goals are not aligned. A good partner can help the other achieve their goals, but but if there is no alignment on the who one partner wants to be and work towards, this will always be a source of conflict.

>The fundamental conflict is that the person and their wife's goals are not aligned.

It would be that, if all goals were equally good and individual taste was the ultimate criterium (which in some cultures are, not always the best ones).

Otherwise not wanting to "devel into a responsible adult" doesn't sound like an issue of "conflict of goals" (any more than one parent being an absentee parent would merely be a "conflict of goals" as opposed to a problem), but a development issue.

Some people just don't want to develop into an adult or be responsible parents. You can call this a development issue, but at some point it is also a problem of partner selection. If your partner has no interest in resolving their issues to your satisfaction, you are in for a rocky relationship continually dragging them Kicking and Screaming into something they do not want.

At some point, your partners development issue becomes your own partner selection and compatibility problem.

>Some people just don't want to develop into an adult or be responsible parents.

Yes. And it's fine to consider this a problem, and criticize them for it, is my point.

If it's not impacting you, I don't really see the point in passing judgement or criticism. If it does impact you, I think you have to ask why you want to be with who doest share your goals. Forcing change on an unwilling partner is a loosing battle for all involved

>If it's not impacting you, I don't really see the point in passing judgement or criticism.

It affects the behavior of the person, and thus others that had to deal with them - including me, if I'm unlucky enough. Societal criticism of bad personality traits is one of the forces keeping societies functional and habitable.

I wished your comment was satire until the last word...

> At times I get the sensation that it just becomes like waking on eggshells to constantly mitigate somebody's upsetness of irrelevant (to me) things.

If you are not the one with the issues, then it sounds like your wife may be an Obsessive Compulsive Personality Type - this type of personality has a need for orderliness, neatness, perfectionism and mental and interpersonal control. Basically, their thinking is that they have "figured out" a process for doing something, and if that process is not followed to the dot, it will not result in the desired optimal / perfect result (this causes them anxiety, which makes them feel that they are losing control over their life / relationship, and they become even more obsessed and compulsive to "regain" control).

They are a bit difficult to live with, even if they can be really wonderful, caring and loving human beings. Often some counselling for anxiety (consider cognitive behaviour therapy), and insights into how their unrealistic expectation and actions can be troubling in a relationship can often make them more empathetic to the other person in a relationship, and smooth things over.

(Be wary, as my assumptions about your wife could be quite wrong. Best to consult a therapist).

Yes, I think you're quite right with the OCD type personality. The communication about these various minor things does also tend to increase when she's more stressed/anxious.

I feel like it's generally under control and we mostly have a good balance/compromise established, but I could be totally wrong, just like the article author!

> I sometimes feel like the things my wife cares about are essentially endless.

> Like how can a dirty dish even perturb somebody so much in the first place? Is it related to some trauma or childhood conditioning? Can it be addressed somehow?

Well, yes, sometimes "irrational" things are indicative of a deeper issue, e.g. Dad told me Mom left because I was messy, and if I keep things tidy I can keep people from leaving me and I will be OK.

Perhaps she's going through a rough patch, and this "I need a tidy environment" is how she's able to express it. Maybe she feels ignored/neglected/etc, and this is how she's able to express it. And it could be that you've dictated that things must go your way in other areas of the house/relationship, and here is where she feels comfortable asking that she not need to walk on eggshells, for things to be her way for once.

One thing to remember is that each of us has "irrational" requests when seen from the outside, regardless of how logical and reasonable they seem to us. Having a heart-to-heart where you both sit down with the mindset of "us vs the problem" could determine the root, which is the first step towards finding a true solution.

Here is one strategy that I enjoy:

Start a notes checklist on your phone of what you could have done to prevent the situation in the first place.

It will grow to probably over 40-50 things over the course of two months. And you will start to realize as you read the list the types of themes that are upsetting and stressful to her.

This has helped but your mileage may vary, it is illuminating though…

Wait. He is saying her demands are neverending and you advise him to keep a list of his failures to guess them ?

It’s not a list of failures, but a list of ideals, e.g. if she gets mad about tripping over your towel, you might write:

-always hang up towel after use

A relationship is like building a house, you can build one with out a ruler, but it will probably be more stable if you use a rule®.

These ideas/rules aren’t all equally important, but they provide a rule for straightening out or constructing a more stable house.

Note: this is related to a whole topic of life satisfaction and rules :)

Thanks for the clarification...but you qualifying her demands as "ideals" clearly shows you're taking one of them as being perfect and always-right and the other as needing to be re-educated. This is not a solid foundation for a relationship, to take your house metaphor.

A towel should not be left on the floor, anyone can agree, but on less obvious topics none of them can be credited as the unique source of Truth.

I should have noted that they are her ideals, not necessarily yours.

However if you strive to be her ideal man, it’s still worthwhile to know what those are :)

Take a moment and look up Borderline Personality Disorder. "Walking on Eggshells" is a gigantic red flag. I suspect it might change your whole perspective.

Translated into a slightly different venue: if partner A's sense of order is jarred by laundry near, and not in, hamper, but partner B just doesn't care, then the steady state is A always cleaning up after B.

A's happiness depends on a certain degree of order in the shared space, and B is oblivious to that degree of order. Or more likely, it requires a conscious exercise of effort to perceive the degree of order.

If B is unwilling to make that effort, they are discovering that they care less about A's happiness than the relative effort required. Eventually, A figures out how low their value is, and takes their relationship elsewhere.

> A always cleaning up after B.

(Married 20 years) there definitely needs to be awareness that A might just prioritize something before B gets to it. It's not that B would never do it or doesn't care. Everything is priorities. (I'm talking within the same day or two, not leaving for weeks on end of course.)

My partner tends to "ruminate" on making phone calls - setting up appointments, customer service stuff, etc. I am on the phone all day for work, so it's no big deal for me to deal with the calls.

Sometimes, I ask my partner to make a call. Most times, she doesn't do it within the agreed upon time period. I either do it myself, she gets to it E V E N T U A L L Y, or it doesn't get done. I used to fight about this because it really isn't "fair" for her to not get this stuff done when she said she'd do it. However, I realized it just wasn't a big deal for me to make the phone calls and deal with this stuff. I'm the one getting pissed over my partner's inaction, not my partner.

Since I just stopped sweating it, making the calls when I felt it was important, and leaving my partner be when the calls are not important, I'm a lot less pissed off about calls. I'm sure my partner appreciates not being bugged over this.

I guess another solution to this could be getting divorced, but that really says to me that the husband wasn't really the problem here and the regret he feels shouldn't be lodged against his own actions.

Could be your partner's inaction on making phone calls mean some sort of lack of confidence?

Deffo this

I think you've got it backwards. Whether the glass ended up in the dishwasher or not didn't matter much to him. It mattered a lot to her and instead of putting in the bit of effort, he tried to justify to himself why he shouldn't have to.

My husband has a thing about making phone calls. I've got other crap I put off for similar reasons, but phone calls are not an issue for me. So when a call needs made and I have the information needed, I'll do it and save him the stress. Not a big deal for me at all, but it takes something off his plate that he doesn't like to do.

Those degrees of happiness can't be measured, especially on the long run.

And your demonstration can be flipped easily : if A's happiness degree is so strongly correlated to the way laundry is processed to the point that changing B's natural way of doing things seems a crucial matter, then perhaps B should figure out how low his value is.

I'm sorry that your marriage ended.

> Why is the wife's desire more important than his? In other words, why must the husband live the way the wife wants and compromise is not acceptable (especially if they share cleaning responsibilities) -- compromise could look like "sometimes I do it her way, sometimes I do it my way." Why can't a partner let go of the little things and accept that living with another person (spouse or roommate) means you don't get to set all the rules on how both of you live?

I don't think the author's relationship failed due to lack of compromise or at least that's not communicated by the article. I take the key line in the article to be this one: "My wife communicated pain and frustration over the frequent reminders she encountered that told her over and over and over again just how little she was considered when I made decisions."

We don't know anything else about their marriage. We don't know who cleaned, shopped, did the finances, budgeted, had a job. All we know is that the author treated his wife in such a way that she didn't feel respected or heard.

I also infer that his wife didn't effectively communicate to him what was really bothering her based on this: "If I had known that this drinking-glass situation and similar arguments would actually end my marriage—that the existence of love, trust, respect, and safety in our marriage was dependent on these moments I was writing off as petty disagreements, I would have made different choices."

Without more detail about the disagreements, we just don't know whether she told him why these things were bothering her and he ignored her, or if she just didn't surface the reasons for her upset.

We also don't know whether they saw a marriage counselor. That would be an interesting detail.

One other point I'd add, with apologies to Tolstoy: “All happy marriages are alike; each unhappy marriage is unhappy in its own way.”

Marriages fail for all sorts of reasons. This article is just one example. The author just wants to warn us: this thing that seems trivial to you but annoys your partner may be a metaphor for a larger issue.

Thank you for the reply! I am humbled with your marriage success.

My original comment was more in response to other comments on HR that the article itself, I guess. It seems that many are quick to condemn the author rather than question why someone would place such great importance on the location of a single glass. If she Is so concerned about that one glass, it seems perhaps a signal that there are other ways in which she’s difficult to live with (meaning not easy and relaxed but fastidious and precise).

First, there are no absolutes here.

Second, its can often be about preference weights. If A cares heavily about something, and B doesnt have a strong preference, then perhaps B should take A's preference into account.

Now, should A have a strong preference for a trivial thing? Maybe not. But that doesnt change anyone's preferences and only breeds resentment.

When you're hurting someone it's on you to stop before they decide they've had enough. After that you can work with them to get what you want in a way that makes sense for you both. Compromise always comes after harm reduction.

When someone is getting hurt by their life partner, they need to speak clearly and explicitly about what is going on and what they want. Expecting your partner to read your mind will end in resentment. Can't reduce harm if you don't speak up.

The author makes it clear that these things were communicated to him. No one needed to read anyone's mind. He just felt like it wasn't a big deal, so he chose not to change his habits.

When you really, truly love someone, their desires are more important than your own, in your own mind, too.

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