DOS Nostalgia: On using a modern DOS workstation | Hacker News Reader

DOS Nostalgia: On using a modern DOS workstation

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95 pointsingve80 comments

I too love using old hardware for “real work”. My current writing workflow is Office 97 on Windows 95 (Pentium II) -> SMB share on a Raspberry Pi -> upload .doc to google drive from my iMac. It’s pretty nice for distraction-free typing, and I still find Word 97 easier to use than any modern word processor. And the appeal of playing with my old computer makes me more likely to want to write. :-)

The Win 95 machine is on a private network for which the Pi is the router, so the SMB share is available without connecting win 95 to the internet.

Nice! Dont you have a problem occasionally wanting to play some Doom on the side? :'D

Mostly UT99 with the GLIDE renderer on my 3DFX Voodoo 3, but I consider it inspiration ;-)

Haha, perfect!

Why limit yourself to old hardware too. I was just thinking about how blazing fast Win 3.1 would run on a modern i9 machine. None of that pesky memory protection or preemptive scheduling getting in the way of getting real work done :-)

Driver support might be an issue - and it might run TOO fast!

Single threaded only though! So you leave a huge amount of that i9 performance on the table.

Old software can be too old for your new hardware. Windows 95 won’t boot on machines faster than 2.1 GHz without an unofficial patch [0]. Old Windows versions support only one CPU core, in 32-bit mode, without using many “fast” instructions. And on the RAM front, Windows 9x tends to get unstable if you have too much of it (512 MB is typically considered the limit).

[0] https://msfn.org/board/topic/141402-windows-95-21ghz-cpu-lim...

I'd managed to get Windows 1.01 to boot on my (at the time brand-new) 2009 3GHz quad-core AMD64 CPU with I think 8GB of RAM. I don't remember which DOS version I was running it on. I'm not sure I knew how much RAM it saw. And it was surely only using 1 core, of course in 16bit mode.

I recently dusted off my mid-90s CRT and with a HDMI/VGA adapter have been using it on my main system. Call it nostalgia, refresh rate, phosphor hypnosis, whatever, but it feels simpler and quieter and less intimidating than a 32" 4K.

Maybe the glass curve conveys a sense of the system being enclosed, as opposed to all around us as today.

It's possible to go very far down this rabbit hole, and end up browsing Sony GDM-FW900s from 2003 for thousands of dollars.

Which is why I dusted off the old one :) -- can't justify 3k in any sensible universe!

Unlike most people, I found CRT more pleasing to use than LCDs. When LCDs started to become mainstream, they were making me dizzy after short use. After using the same screen for a longer period of time, I can somewhat get used to it, but I still feel queasy after more than few hours of use. But switching to another LCD still takes me some time to adjust to make it even usable.

Lots of people find CRTs more pleasing to use than LCDs, because of better contrast ratios and lower latencies. But--fascinating--I've not heard of LCDs making people dizzy, do you have any idea what it is about the LCD that makes you dizzy?

LCDs are actually infamous for making people dizzy, with the whole PWM thing. That's why many screens are advertised as "flicker-free". I am not an expert on the technical side of things but google "LCD displays PWM dizzy" and you'll get plenty of links. Commonly PWM is used for brightness management, so the screen might be flicker-free at high brightness (the blinding one like they use in computer stores), and suddenly it starts to flicker when you turn it down.

monochrome monitor here. something about that display that is so calming and work inducing

Have you tried abiword for word processing?

Why don’t you have the pi upload to google drive? Have the smb mount point to a rclone mount that’s google drive. Skip a hop :)

That’s a really nice idea. Maybe I could do the same with Dropbox. A good project for the Easter weekend - thank you!

I haven’t tried abiword as I didn’t use it “back in the day”, but I might give it a go. I’m also using AppleWorks on my iMac G3 with an identical setup. The G3 is nice because it’s fanless and therefore almost silent, though it has a bit of CRT whine nowadays.

Give abiword a try! It tried to clone office 97 as much as possible regarding user interface. Would get you off the windows 95 requirement and you could use Debian 32 bit.

Debian would also work nicely on that g3. Bring both of them up to date!

Rclone supports drop box. It’s more of a 15 minute rtfm task than an Easter weekend. If you are celebrating have a nice Easter.

Debian doesn’t work any more on PPC Macs, nor does any other Linux distro I’m afraid. At least I couldn’t find one when I was looking into this recently that was actively maintained.

Of course you can go with an older version of Debian.

Or you can give FreeBSD a spin. Still works nicely on those old machines, including the latest versions! (NetBSD and OpenBSD work too, but they are harder to install and their boot loader is pickier.)

Yer right! I had no clue they retired Debian on 32 bit PPC! End of an era!

Wrong https://t2sde.org/architectures/powerpc64/

That's a 64 bit G5. It won't work on a G3/G4.

Well it wasn't specified. But here https://t2sde.org/architectures/powerpc/

That’s…………not Debian

It is a Linux which builds and supports PPC Big Endian in 2022

The official port is dead, but unofficial development builds are still available. E.g. here https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/ports/current/ is a Debian 11 netinst for `powerpc`. More information at https://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/

Check out Adelie Linux[0]. I haven't committed to installing it on my iMac G4 yet, but I've tried the liveCD and it looks promising! It's been featured a few times on the "Action Retro" Youtube channel. (Incidentally, a rising star of my favorite youtube creators.)

[0] https://www.adelielinux.org/ [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLLfCgBu96M

PPC Linux can be had from the T2 Linux distribution! https://t2sde.org/architectures/powerpc64/

my go-to writing system was a repaired (got two broken ones for free, cobbled together 1 working one) 800MHz Celeron Sony VAIO with an 800x600 LCD, xubuntu, and abiword. The thing /couldn't/ connect to the internet (required a dongle I didn't have) but had a USB port for using a thumbdrive.

I got so much work done on that thing.

Abiword is very unstable, I do not recommend it unless you save at every keypress.

Ted may work better, now it has a GTK2 interface instead of Motif.

I had a pretty good time running an 8Gb rpi 4 running BSD with the Lumina D.E. I did the same experiment on a rpi 3 and found 1GB just a little too limiting for the type of work I was doing. 8Gb was definitely overkill for my workflow but I couldn't help myself when I was upgrading.

I think some of the productivity gains definitely felt like a placebo though. Having a device that just had the github repo of the project I was working on, with a fresh OS install with no other distracting things installed, is not a unique experience to the rpi. In fact I could mimic this by just creating a "work" user on my current desktop.

But it was at least an exercise

I write my journals on VM370CE V1R1.1 (running on sdl-hercules) i love the editor and it's completely distraction free.

I also think Word 97 is the pinnacle of word processing. I run it in a Windows Me Virtual Machine and post the texts to my blog using IE6 :)

Have you tried wine? I image that word 97 would run great in it.

I love Wine, and use it regularly for other progs like Netscape, but W97 works better this way. Even emulated, it is more responsive and cleaner than GDocs and LibreO

E-waste is a really big issue. Looking after old computers and giving them a genuine use is a good contribution to reducing pollution. I wrote about this recently [1][2]. DOSBox on top of a minimal nix install also works well as it emulates old video modes quite nicely.

[1] https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/techno-clutter-farnell...

[2] https://cheapskatesguide.org/articles/uncharitable.html

I like doing writing work (wordperfect) on my old machines (286-486 era). It's the one task that I find is actually better on these old machines. My Model-M keyboard is better for typing, there are less distractions and I prefer looking at a CRT when writing. It's also somewhat ceremonial booting up the machine and running WP, so that helps getting into he writing mindset.

What makes this especially convenient is that I can save files direct to a CF card and interchange it with my modern machines. CF uses the same IDE interface as a vintage hard drive, so hooking up one of these solutions with old hardware is trivially easy.

I also use a Model M. they don’t make them like that any more!

I use an IDE to SD card adapter rather than CF, as SD cards are super cheap and easy to image.

I prefer CF cards because there's no signal conversion needed while SD card adapters needs conversion electronics. I'm not sure if the SD card adapters are any less reliable, but I've stuck to buying Startech CF adapters and have not had any issues yet. Plus, I have about 30 CF cards on hand so it's nice to still have a use for them.

But they /almost/ do! I use an '86 IBM M as my daily driver, but I've bought two keyboards from https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/UKBD which still makes this style of keyboard. They're not nearly as broken-in as my M is of course, and the construction differs in a few insignificant (to me) ways, but the typing experience is identical. I'd recommend giving them a look if you're in the market.

Ah! Wordperfect - best word processor on DOS by far.

It's what I used as a kid, so it's all I know from that era. I still have those templates on my keyboard.

I was exposed to several word processors at the time, and choose PC-Write[0] (shareware pioneer) as my primary tool. After becoming an advanced user of vi and nroff for various tasks (programming, desktop publishing), I found PC-Write to be the best tool when migrating to the PC world.

"One unusual feature of PC-Write was its implementation of free form editing: it could copy and paste a block of text anywhere."

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PC-Write

Lower input latency, too, which makes for more-pleasant typing.

This is actually a good point... I have a very fast 16 core PC, but typing in Google Docs often has latencies. Everything in WP is instantaneous, even on my 6mhz 286.

A local app will have less latency than a networked one running in a browser.

Depends, a local app which is an Electron app....

Reminds me of https://danluu.com/input-lag/ - and I've been noticing it more and more as everything (even desktop apps) become "cloud apps" - everything is sluggish, which prevents typeahead and quick access.

Watching someone use the old text-based terminals you'd see at Frys or a bank vs watching them fight with a mouse-based web GUI is instructional; with the old text terminal you could enter the whole transaction as one long string of characters into the buffer, and even if it took time to load the screens, it would faithfully execute exactly as you ordered it to.

Still to this day all of my command lines are dark-navy-blue with white text because of WP 5.1. I go a bit darker than the original, but its been that way for nearly 30 years now.

The dark-blue-with-light-text color scheme was used by MS-DOS based dev environments too back in the day. Both Microsoft's "Quick" and Borland "Turbo" series used it. It was even featured in the EDIT fullscreen editor on MS-DOS.

And the Zortech editor.

A few months ago, I installed Windows 2000 onto an ancient ThinkPad T21. I then put Office 2000 on it. The intent was 'mono-focused' (I like that word) writing.

The project stalled, as I was stuck looking for a good offline dictionary/thesaurus to put on it, as I knew I would need it, most out there are horrible or online only.

I should resurrect the idea and blog about it really (directly from the aforementioned ThinkPad).

I think there's mileage in a 'Writers Distro' for Linux, which only bundles a set of apps for Writing, and NO network drivers.

Try WordNet, it requires tcl/tk, it may run under Windows 2000.

https://wordnet.princeton.edu/download/current-version#win

Oh that's nice, cheers.

Have you tried StarDict? I'd imagine 2.4.8 probably runs on 2000 since it dates from 2006. There's loads of compatible dictionaries you can install.

I use Artha on Linux, which uses the WordNet database. It's fast and convenient. My only issue is that I would prefer using a more up-to-date fork of the WordNet database as I don't think WordNet has been updated in a while.

http://artha.sourceforge.net/wiki/index.php/Home

It was mentioned in a different article on HN the other day a Professor somewhere who still swore by an old CD of Microsoft Bookshelf [1]. That Professor believed that the American Heritage Dictionary, 3rd Edition included in Bookshelf remains one of the best dictionaries ever assembled. Bookshelf CDs also included Roget's Thesaurus.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_Bookshelf

That's a very good idea, I hadn't thought of that. I bet archive.org will have a copy!

There is the Alphasmart word processor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AlphaSmart

> AlphaSmart devices have a cult following amongst writers, who use them for distraction-free writing. [2]

I did something like this putting Linux Mint on a 2012 Macbook Air. My only requirements were that it run Simplenote and Firefox... everything beyond that was superfluous. So I could take it and try to focus on writing, though of course 90% of my distractions are in the browser anyway...

It is a nice thing to have around though. I would definitely follow a "mono-focused" writing device or distro.

On Linux' distro for writers with "no drivers": Use this old Linux:

http://delicate-linux.net/0.1/download/iso/delicate-0.1-alph...

Setting up a desktop environment is not that difficult, and compiling wordnet from source once you install tcl/tk from the CD it's a breeze.

http://delicate-linux.net/

Yeah, I was thinking of a more-ready-to-run distro for non-technical people.

When I have some more free-time (haha) I might look to building one.

Then try https://www.dyne.org/software/dynebolic/ Live ISO but you can install it on an HD.

Strangely I have lived almost exactly the same thing as the author (I had to check it wasn't me). The difference was that I bought the C64. I spent an unreasonable time connecting it to the wifi and I still haven't figured out the best way to SSH to my desktop.

To avoid distractions it's simpler just to turn off Wi-Fi or to take your laptop somewhere where there is no Wi-Fi you can access. I got a lot of programming done at my kids' piano teacher's house.

It's always kind of ironic to read complains about distractions on online blogs.

I think if I went down this path I’d have to build a tower case - more control over the various devices and more of that 90s feel.

I need to run an old DOS program that communicates with a 9-bit serial protocol that need an ancient UART. This hardware is nearly unubtanium.

I think a good DOS emulator could fake this with an external - say arduino - device on the wire. I emailed the dosbox crew about this but got no response. Any ideas?

Hack QEmu to add an emulation for the UART. It's not as hard to add devices in there as you'd think.

Since it's for work I was hoping to pay someone to do it. Have to run it by management but I think 90% they'd go for it.

Thanks for the tip, I'll check out qemu.

FWIW I am not working right now (and for the next month or so, waiting on a job offer) and might be interested, depending on the specifics.

ryan [dot] daum @ gmail.com

pinged by email. I love Hacker News...

OpenStep a lot of the time. Browsing via X, but yeah.

How.

Openstep does not use X. It uses display postscript which will display on other machines like X11 does

There are third-party X servers for OPENSTEP; this (https://ftp.nice.ch/Attic/openStep/X11/) is one that I found after a minute of using Google.

I have about a dozen Pentium and 486 machines sitting in the attic. I wonder how long until they become valuable ($XXXX) artifacts.

Get one setup as a "blast from the past" machine and try to sell it. I bet there's people out there that would pay for a nostalgia pentium ready to roll, especially if you did all the work getting it to go.

$XXXX specifically isn't likely for that era, at least anytime soon. If it's something rare or unique like the Thinkpad 701 with its butterfly keyboard, then it easily can go into hundreds. If they're normal machines in working order, then I wouldn't expect a ton, but many people want them for retro gaming or some other reason like the author does. Even a non-working machine has parts some people might want. I have a couple of working, but worse for wear machines with sentimental value that I've been trying keep an eye out for non-working counterparts to salvage and for spare parts. One of them is actually a Thinkpad 240 that's close to the 240x author got.

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