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Comment by shados | Hacker News Reader

Not only do people not care, they actively push down and belittle people who do. They'll say it's just something that's notmaly and anyone trying to change it should move.

Most source of noise pollution wouldnt be that hard to fix. Society just doesn't want to.

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I had this "conversation" with my neighbor (it was more like me being yelled at) It kind of blew my mind they didnt care about noise interruptions at all hours and told me its my problem. Like maybe if you got a full night of sleep you wouldn't be so angry? I guess this study supports that.

The noise in my current apartment is endless, car alarms, screaming and crying kids along with their loud toys, idling cars, the loudest ice cream truck idles for hours for some reason here, rancheras and bass from cars, instruments being practiced, the leaf blowers are horrible. it really sucks. and it feels like no one cares, but it feels so stressful, like physically too.

and out doors is being ruined too. mostly by portable music.

What i really dont understand is people identifying with being loud. i spent a couple weeks in puerto rico and was surprised that some people seemed to be loud on purpose.

I can’t speak about puerto rico, but in another latin american country i’ve spent a lot of time in it’s very common for every small store to have a loudspeaker and blast (imo shitty) music from 10 to 5. That isn’t even bad compared to the many discos right next to each other than play music as loud as possible to not be dwarfed by their neighbor.

Whenever I’m in a Western city I’m grateful for how much more quiet it is (relatively anyways), even with greater density and size.

Hesitate to say it, but I think a lot of my current noise issues are because I moved into an immigrant Mexican community without realizing it. While I'm posting things that might sound bad, I think I've noticed a correlation with more noise and lower economic class people

How’s the honking? I’ve moved around quite a bit and shared some of your experience from the sound of it.

>>> I think I've noticed a correlation with more noise and lower economic class people

This is true and it is true all over the world.

One thing I remember from living in Puerto Rico for a few years was the vans with huge loudspeakers on top that would go around blaring political messages. This was 30 years ago, so maybe it is different now. I’m so thankful that kind of thing doesn’t fly on the mainland.

This used to be a more common thing, including on the mainland. It's still depicted in TV and film, sometimes. There's a (probably intentionally goofily anachronistic) political ad van featured in Steven Universe, for instance. There's also one (in the "present day", that is, 1985) in Back to the Future.

There's the scene from Blues Brothers where they promote their final concert; that's true to life from the time.

Puerto Rico and much of Latin America is basically how the USA itself was in the 50s, so you get more of that.

Blues Brothers also has an example of the elevated rumbling by every second of the night.

The absolute best thing about leaving the US several years ago is the silence.

I can go to bed every night knowing some random guy won't decide 3 AM on a Wednesday morning is the best day to crank up the bass to max and start a party. I can sleep knowing some old guy isn't going to compensate for his masculinity by revving up his modded motorcycle at 4:30 AM everyday. I can sleep knowing people aren't going to start screaming and fighting in the middle of the street at 11:30 PM and again at 7 AM, even in a nice neighborhood. I can relax and not have to hear someone blasting the action movies and advertisements from their TV from 6 AM to 10 PM every single day. I can take a bus and not be surrounded by people shouting at someone on speakerphone, and needing to repeat their every statement several times because 5 other people are doing the same thing.

And yeah. People who blast music while outside, especially in natural parks, are assholes without exception. I like that I can hike here and it's absolute silence, every single time.

Sounds blissful. Where did you move, if you don’t mind me asking?

Can you say where you relocated to that provides this?

During my flirtation with buddhism it came up quite often how inured some people are to constant noise. Everyone had stories of people who simply could not cope with a silent retreat.

Some people who are constantly 'on' are avoiding sitting with their own thoughts, in some cases due to treatable psychological conditions. The noise or the activity keeps them from being alone with themselves and sitting in a silent space, all of their intrusive thoughts hit like a ton of bricks and they can't even.

I wonder how much of the noise around us is invited rather than simply tolerated or excused.

Yes. Shut your music speaker off in the park and on the trail or wear headphones. That should be banned

there's lots of places in the US where this doesn't happen. majority of the country, in fact

> instruments being practiced

As a musician... although I understand that, in the end, instrument practice is still noise, it hurts to see this listed among the rest of your items. Last year, I had to move out of an apartment complex because our neighbors would not tolerate even 30 minutes of practice a day (in spite of the ~2 daily hours of lawn care racket, but whatever) and complained to building management.

I get that listening to me repetitously work out a song or musical phrase for an hour might not be pleasant... but is it really as bad as noise from motorcycles, lawnmowers, and car alarms? For those who enjoy hearing their own music but still feel this way: how do you expect new musicians to come into existence, new music to be made? Is it not a racket worth its trouble? Is there any solace in knowing that the person making such noise is doing so with the specific goal of creating enjoyable noise in the future?

These are genuine questions. I want to practice a lot, but I hate noise pollution myself and don't want to be a nusiance to others.

I was a trumpet player for years in high school and college, practiced all the time at home and so did my brother so I experienced the situation from both sides. My opinion now is that it is irresponsible to make playing an instrument your hobby or profession (an instrument that can't avoid making noise that will bother others) unless you have access to an appropriate practice space. There are churches, music schools, music stores that will rent out space. Yes it sucks but that's the breaks. Either make sure you have access or don't pick up that trumpet/violin/tuba. Or switch it out for a keyboard (which can be electronic and practiced with earphones in) or guitar. This is what I did in my young adult years after I had put down the trumpet and was playing piano as a hobby while living on my own in an apartment.

Trumpet fortunately is one of the few instruments that you can reasonably practice with a practice mute. I have the Up Mute and it works amazingly with only a little backpressure, no complaints from any neighbors. Woodwinds are much more difficult to keep quiet though.

I once had a violin player as neighbor. It's bad enough when played well but violin mistakes are really painful to listen to.

My issue with my current neighbor (which is why i listed it) is mostly being woken up by the playing. I sleep late on weekends, I guess he wants to practice at 9am on a saturday for a few hours. Its the first thing I hear, he wakes me up, then im stuck listening as i try to get up and out of the apartment. Its also random playing in duration and time. Sometimes I think hes finally done then i get shocked by some loud scales or a random burst. Ideally I would just know how much he wants to practice and when. I'm sure we could figure out a schedule or something. I also offered to split the cost of some sound dampening thing for his saxaphone.

I like to think I'm reasonable and I understand that compromises need to be made for people in our unfortunately crappy apartments. I don't think its fair for me to try to shut down someones practicing. I get people do what they want to do. It sounds like to me likely your neighbor was unreasonable.

It's absolutely reasonable to not want to be harassed by noise in ones home. Even if that means a musician has to find another place to practice. Living stress free takes precedence over learning an instrument.

I think having control has a lot to do with it; even the most beautiful music is "noise" if you can't control when it starts and stops. Unpredictability also plays a part: it suddenly starts at a random time and okay, so your neighbour is playing loud music (or practising their instrument); is this going to be for 5 minutes? 30 minutes? 2 hours? All night?

It's very much a personal thing. My brother once lived above a pub, when I came over the pub was playing music and I asked him if the noise didn't bother him. He asked "what noise?" On the other hand he hates living next to a road, whereas I don't actually mind that so much.

Or another thing: some time ago X11 and Wayland were being discussed on HN and someone asked me if I didn't mind the tearing on X11. I had to find a YouTube video to find out what exactly it looks like. Now that I know what I looks like: yeah, X11 does tear a lot, I guess. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest, whereas other people are very bothered by it. I also watch 720p (and lower!) videos/movies and think it's just fine.

I guess my point is that different people are bothered by different things. Person A saying "it's not that bad" and person B saying "it's driving me up the walls" can both be true and genuine statements.

As for your instrument practice ... I don't have an answer. Details matter: are you practising 30 minutes or 2 hours every day? What instrument do you play? How well insulated is the building? Etc. As for "is it not a racket worth its trouble?", no, I don't think so, not if it's severely affecting your daily quality of life (and again, how much it affects people really depends on the person).

> I think having control has a lot to do with it;

Yup. If the neighbor decides to play one of my favorite song ever, I'll still be pissed if I'm trying to watch a TV show.

Also a musician, but also noise sensitive. To a degree I think the difference is that practice noise is completely different from playing a song from start to end. It's kind of like someone on the train talking on the phone -- you only hear their perspective and it really messes with your head since you naturally want to make sense of what's going on. Practice is scattered, filled with experimentation, and repetitious as hell. But it's difficult to fill those patterns in because practice playing is inherently unpredictable, ie frustrating.

Also, whatever instrument you're playing, I guarantee you the difference between everything else is that your neighbor can feel the music even with bulky headphones. There's a very unsettling feeling you get when you can't escape that, especially when you work from home. Maybe consider getting quiet equipmen -- you're a software developer, so you can surely afford it.

Like, I don't necessarily care that the toddlers stomping around above me are having fun, learning new things, etc etc.. they're still stomping around. Don't be that person.

One thing I really liked about university was catching faint snippets of music being played as I walked around. But maybe this is due to not being bothered by people practicing scales in dedicated insulated basement music practice rooms, so I would only infrequently hear ~full pieces being practised.

I loved walking by musical school every now and then when they had windows open. Sorta added to summery feeling. But I hated every minute of my upstairs neighbour having their go at piano.

> how do you expect new musicians to come into existence, new music to be made? Is it not a racket worth its trouble?

For me, the absence of stress caused by someone playing unwanted music into my apartment would absolutely be worth no new music being made. Lack of stress is just more basic and immediate need.

As someone who grew up playing piano, I'm sad that it's incompatible with urban living. I know some cultures are more likely to tolerate it than others, but overall I see it as on the way out.

There are electric pianos that are really-really good with feedback and feel and whatnot you piano players value, just plug in the headphones and practice away. Of all the compromises musicians have to make in apartment buildings this is one of the best and easiest.

Those still produce noise when you press the keys. Source: a friend can't practice after 8 because it bothers his downstairs neighbours.

Yeah the acoustics of just hitting a key on a good mechanical electrical keyboard is very surprisingly loud and propagates downwards through floors quite well. I used one for years but one still has to be considerate. It's indeed not the worst of compromises, but for me I don't see it as being enough to sustain a (classical) piano playing culture - it's life-support at best without the acoustic element.

Whoa. That building must be paper thin then. I know they produce sound (we had one), but that's still worlds apart from having someone practice a piece way over their heads days on end.

No, it's a german building, so brick walls, etc.

The irony is better materials cut out more higher frequencies, so without bass baffling, that's all that comes through. It ends up being more annoying. See also: TVs at reasonable volumes annoying people in the next room because it's all fwoom boom grrrscreeecrshhhhh with no context to piece together what's actually happening, and all down in frequencies that are hard to tune out.

Yeah, that building must be absolutely terrible. I have a shared wall with a neighbor who has a baby grand piano and can only barely hear it from right next to the wall.

> it's incompatible with urban living

No, it's incompatible with houses with poor sound insulation.

You need a LOT of concrete, dry wall, green glue and mass loaded vinyl to block out a standard piano...

I'm a musician too, and yes, it is absolutely awful to hear someone practicing next door. I'm fortunate to play mostly electric instruments so I always practice with headphones because I understand how painful it is for others.

Its torturous. I threatened to walk out..i can tolerate the alto but it was either me or the tenor sax. At one point, my teeth started hurting every time sax practice began. The pandemic had brought in seven musical instruments into our home and sometimes extended practice sessions. And voice lessons for the last two months. I wear headphones all the time now..but the downside is that I can't hear myself.

Here is what we did..i am learning an instrument too..so we sat down one day and figured out set timetables for practice. there is a way to soundproof a room..with foam panels. We got an electric sax which is brilliant because it can be practiced with headphones and has three instrument choices for clarinet, flute and sax. The controller can also be used with headphones.

Rent studio space with other friends or a friend's shed. Digital instruments are your friend. It is the future anyways. We have also vetoed drums as a family decision and that's mostly because we have pets. Tabla is ok and a lot of times i only need the metronome. I also use an app called iTabla for my sitar practice and I can control the volume.

The best solution is to find a friend who has space and tolerant neighbours.

Oh!! And curtains..there are scurtains that absorb sound. I don't know if its effective, but I found them at Costco and replaced all the nice curtains with ugly heavy sound absorbing curtains. Because. Music.

I would suggest sound proofing your studio. I love music but not the sound of music practice through the walls

> I get that listening to me repetitously work out a song or musical phrase for an hour might not be pleasant... but is it really as bad as noise from motorcycles, lawnmowers, and car alarms?

At equal volume, it's actually worse. Music is harder to tune out than mechanical noise.

> For those who enjoy hearing their own music but still feel this way: how do you expect new musicians to come into existence, new music to be made? Is it not a racket worth its trouble? Is there any solace in knowing that the person making such noise is doing so with the specific goal of creating enjoyable noise in the future?

No.

This is such a solved problem - I grew up in an urban area that was mostly apartments, so nobody's house was suitable for music practice. Everyone I know who played music rented nonresidental space to practice, usually a wearhouse space.

The problem is that our hears are hard to shut. Earplugs don't block vibrations, and we need our ears for other things. If you're a parent you need to keep track of your kids, for one. If someone is trying to watch a 1 hour TV show, all of a sudden there's a large window of the day where they might get interrupted and unable to do it. If they work night, they'll be a wreck because they can no longer sleep.

There's no difference between a lawnmower and a piano in that case. The later might even be worse because it's not constant "white" noise (gray noise maybe?).

I lived next door to a piano player, and even though the walls were well insulated and I only heard him play lightly, it drove me mad. Music meant to attract attention. Even with a white noise machine it was incredibly hard to ignore.

Most instruments have electronic versions that you can practice with headphones. Pianos, violin, drums, guitars. For the others you can install an insulated booth, or rent a studio. Some hobbies aren't fit to be done in an apartment building, too. I'd love to play DDR in my apartment, but the downstairs neighbor will kill me. So I don't. Choose your instrument wisely (I used to be into drumming. I just had an electronic one, it was close enough to practice. Not as cool, but hey, compromises have to be made).

It's because almost all the noise in the modern world is caused by cars and motorcycles, and in the United States are prioritized over all other life forms.

Imo it should become regulation that all cars have to have some audio transparency tech like headphones have. Then we would be able to lower the volume of emergency sirens which are obscenely loud to penetrate cars.

Massively reducing car usage is a much better solution with much more wide-spread benefits.

That as well. But it does feel very wrong that combustion engine users can emit huge amounts of noise and pollution while sitting in sound proof, HEPA filtered boxes.

The horn on automobiles should be mounted inside the cabin. They can make it as loud as they need to make it, but the person who hears it the loudest should be the driver.

I've often thought this should apply to motorcycles too. Motorcycle helmets would have speakers installed inside, wirelessly connected to the bike so that it produces realistic motorcycle sound effects when you operate the throttle.

This way, motorcycle enthusiasts could have all of their "loud pipe" thrills while riding a clean, silent electric motorcycle and not disturbing their neighbors!

For even more realism, vibrators could be installed in the seat to mimic a combustion engine's "vroom".

You joke, but they do this in cars.

https://motorandwheels.com/cars-with-active-sound-design/

These kinds of all-or-nothing approaches are not feasible - even in high-walkability scoring cities. Just look beyond your city's micro-core and see how reliant people are on cars - I'm talking places as diverse Oslo, Norway, Rome, Italy or Amsterdam, NL ( the HN bicyclist collective's favorite city ) [1]

People rely on cars for very valid, strong & un-substitute-able reasons in 1000s of cities on this planet ( even without counting the countries in the developing world which are just now getting a taste of vehicular freedom ). HN represents a tiny slice of of an already small slice of wishful thinkers whose pipe dreams get a dose of reality the moment you step outside your NIMBY bubble.

Even reduced car usage - in what is touted as the most bike-friendly city on earth at least here on HN - looks like this in the Baarsjes and Oud West neighborhoods of Amsterdam.

Een rondje door de Baarsjes en Oud West.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yN7ox6bxBlI

this would also help stop people hooting unnecessarily, if they had to hear it themselves

The US preference for cars cuts DEEP, it’s at a cellular level.

To share an anecdote, I went to order a sandwich at a fast food restaurant from the counter. After ordering I waited in the restaurant, watching the kitchen staff serve several cars in the drive through. After 10 minutes I just got frustrated, went back to the counter and asked for a refund. I got it and left.

Later I talked to friends about the experience. Apparently restaurants collect metrics for drive through wait times, but not for orders at the counter. So of course managers have a preference to serve drive through customers. The restaurant I went to made no attempt to hide that preference.

I feel like you need a car in the US to be treated normally.

Opposing anecdata: the not-so-secret secret to beating the lines at In-N-Out is to park and order inside or at the window. That's just because the drive thru lines there are always insane.

In-n-out intentionally doesn't prioritize; the only thing that can get you "delayed" out of the order the order was received is if you have something special like cheese fries or a shake that can take extra processing.

Burger King Manager confirmed the same to myself.

During that period last year when the vaccine started to be widely available but still a little tricky to schedule the city shut down my nearest free testing location. The next nearest was "in-car" and wouldn't test me on foot or bike, citing liability. The next next nearest was a 40 minute bus ride away, obviously a very reasonable choice when you suspect you have covid.

I feel like this potentially illustrates several american social pathologies but probably best to stick to the car one for now.

And this is one of the major reasons I’m hopeful for electric cars.

People will still be hobbyists with loud cars and motorcycles, though (at least in the US). We literally just need to legislate a package of laws that says people can't make loud noise with their vehicle, repeated offenses result in the vehicle being taken away, and anyone that modifies vehicles to make loud noise will be fined heavily.

I’m all for it it but unfortunately our local law enforcement in the bay couldn’t care less about enforcing existing noise violations for modded cars and motorcycles. So we can fill the books with laws but if they aren’t enforced it’s as if they don’t exist.

There is a whole cottage industry now of in-canal earplugs made of clear or nearly clear material. The better ones have a relatively flat response curve. Etymotic sells some they bill as meant for concert goers (though theirs are not as covert as newer brands).

I have reports from multiple neurodiverse people about how much better they can deal with (loud) social obligations. One person diagnosed with ADHD is practically a different person with their earplugs in.

Leaf blowers. I hate those things with a passion

>Not only do people not care, they actively push down and belittle people who do.

The venn diagram of "people willing to lift a finger about noise pollution" and "people who think they know what car you should drive, how long your lawn should be, how much water your washing machine should use and what temperature you should set your thermostat" is only a sliver away from being a circle. It's not at all surprising that people take a mental shortcut and just skip straight to the belittling step.

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