Comment by rpmisms | Hacker News Reader

Comment by rpmisms | Hacker News Reader

I currently own the stupidest cat I've ever seen, but I previously had a very clever cat that I got from my in-laws. It could obey commands, figure out patterns, etc.

However, my dog is orders of magnitude smarter, and has taught herself:

- Lying. She barks "at the mailman" about 10 minutes before he arrives, so I'll put her out when he's in the area

- Mirrors. She understands that her reflection is only a reflection, and will look at herself to see if her fur is ruffled on her hindquarters

- Language. Dogs are often taught to communicate with buttons that trigger a word. The conventional wisdom is that it takes a dog about a week to learn to use them. She taught herself 5 separate buttons in 20 minutes, and uses them to this day, chaining them together to express her thoughts remarkably clearly. For example, she used "no" + "time for bed" in the morning when I hadn't refilled her water yet.

But that's why dogs are so popular: they're calibrated to our psyche. They understand human gestures incredibly well.

One of my dogs used to "lie" - he knew he wasn't suppose to be on the sofa. But he'd always push boundaries and try anyway like a human child. As soon as he'd hear you approaching the room, he'd just off (he was a no-fur dog).

What gave away his game was that sometimes his hind leg didn't quite get off the sofa. It was like a kid that took cookies for the cookie jar, even managed to get it back where it was supposed to be but then left obvious crumbs.

I think one of the articles shared here recently mentioned that dogs are the best animal proxy model for understanding mental illness due to their similarity to humans. Dogs' domestication is the oldest by far of any living mammal. I believe that canines and humans had similar basic social structures and that eased their integration. Dogs are basically a humanized species.

There has been some fascinating work on human canine coevolution over the past years - I read a paper (sorry can't locate it now) that claimed that humans developed such distinct pupils due to it being so useful to survival for dogs to be able to see which direction a human is looking, for example in a hunting context. That one blew my mind.

I heard that was so that other humans could see what we were looking at (though dogs may also benefit).

What I did notice was that dog sclerae are more visible than wolf sclerae, and I believe that to be for similar reasons, so a human can read where exactly the dog is looking.

What really blew my mind was learning that the "puppy dog eyes" look was due to extra orbital muscles that dogs have and wolves lack. Dog faces evolved to respond to human sensitivity to facial expressions.

Also the warm spot on the sofa :)

My dog does this too, and it's endearing.

I've seen a lot of cats using those buttons as well, but I don't think dogs or cats are actually expressing language with them.

They understand making a specific sound produces a specific result. It's a bit far from language.

My dog also used "outside" + "water" to express her need to pee. I would be inclined to agree with you if she couldn't use them in the abstract, but she can.

Realizing that making the sounds for "outside" allows you to go outside is not very far from language. I see people saying this every time dog buttons come up and it's very curious to me. What exactly do they need to do, model the parts of a sentence?

language is simply a form of communication between 2 beings. If those buttons are pushed so that a specific outcome may occur through another party (human) I would qualify that as a form of language.

I've had cats all my life due to my parents being cat people. I have the smartest siberian cat that i got from a breeder ( because of my partners allergies).

She goes out and comes back when i call her and understands that she can wander outside only if she comes back when called. I put bells at the door that he uses to tell me when she wants to go out and rings the bells on the otherside when she is ready to come back in. Plays hide and seek, fetch ect with my nephew. And above all i feel like her emotional intelligence is on another level. She knows how to read minds. Best cat I've ever had!!!

I thought no dogs could recognize themselves in the mirror. Are you sure?

Also, what breed is your dog? Is it one of the famously clever ones like a Border Collie?

I have a Great Pyrenees, one of the more independent breeds; they're incredibly (annoyingly) smart, but don't test well because they aren't obedient. She definitely understands it's her in the mirror, but I'm not sure about how well she conceptually maps the reflection onto herself.

She did plan an escape for over a week once, but that's a different story...

My cat also seems to understand that his reflection is just a reflection, and ignores it.

He gets spooked when he sees his faint reflection in glass, for example in front of the fake fireplace.

Part of it is that dogs and cats identify each other by smell as much as, if not more than, sight. A reflection may not register as a real dog/cat to most of them.

I doubt your dog passes the mirror test ...

Things to hate about HN: the large number of nearly-nothing responses like this. I wish people would instead suggest something constructive like 'make some vids and put them on youtube so we can judge for ourselves'.

Or include a link to peer reviewed research. Instead it’s all memes. This one is Will Ferrel as the Anchorman saying “I don’t believe you.”

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/dog-spies/what-do-dogs-... has some references

A good test is to apply a white mark on the subjects head. Try to do it in a way they don't notice, and use a safe material with no odor. Then see if they start mucking with their head after looking in the mirror.

Agreed. If an HN poster doesn't start cleaning their hair after looking in a mirror, their account should be cancelled to prevent further posting. That would work.

(err, that's what you meant, right?)

Well, this dog is white, but I may try some experiments. I'm curious if she could recognize a mark.

That would imply I can believe his very extraordinary claims. No dogs have ever passed the mirror test, this would be a momentous occasion for science.

Given the list of animals that have, or may <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Mammals> why would it be so astounding to add a dog to that list?

(NB, I don't know where I saw it but if you look at <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirror_test#Mammals_3> about pigs: "Pigs can use visual information seen in a mirror to find food" - someone recently found dogs doing the same; finding hidden food with mirrors with distinctly better than chance).

Because it would be astounding to add any creature to the list of self aware creatures?

Understanding that a reflection is a reflection isn't full self-awareness, which itself is a blanket term. Being aware of your physical presence doesn't necessitate having a sense of self.

Seeing the reflecton and recognizing what you're seeing is your own reflection (demonstrating this knowledge by fixing your hair, which you notice is ruffled) is basically the full mirror test which is the best test we have for self-recognition.

Well, she's aware it's a reflection of her/not an actual dog. She also can look at me in a mirror while knowing where I am in real life, and it's pretty clear she understands which is real. I'm not sure if she maps her ego onto the reflection like a higher primate could, though.

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